Why claiming to have a C2 is often not realistic! (with Olly Richards in Venice)
2024 ж. 22 Мам.
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If a certified board tells you that you are C2 then you are indeed C2. Having a C2 level is not the same as having complete mastery of the language or that you speak like a native.
I was tested at C2 in German in a German language school in Cologne, but that was years ago and, although I could understand everything around me at the time (I also attended classes at a university with normal German students and had no problems); however, I've learned so much since then. If you're C2, it by no means means that you're done with the language. Good video :)
yes
I read the C2 descriptions and I don’t think all native speakers are at that level. Only well educated (including thorough self education) people are at that level. I taught writing to native speaking university students and I guarantee that at least 30% couldn’t write at a C2 level. There’s a also a big difference between barely passing the test and having real mastery. Frankly, a lot of the writing I've seen by native speakers makes me wonder how they got through High School.
lol
I agree. Entirely. I am a former Law professor in Brazil and can say: the majority of the university students can't write properly.
My older cousin was in college (he was going for something that didn't require a lot of academic knowledge in order to pursue) and he took a sociology course and for the midterm essay everyone in his class failed and they had to rewrite their essays. The thing is, my cousin had one of the better papers which is absolutely terrifying because honestly his paper was terrible! I helped him rewrite it so he was able to get an A but there was such a stark difference between the quality of our writing and our general style that it likely did raise some alarms. So yeah, I am definitely certain that there are many people who could speak or write english way better than a native speaker
@@heyitsshai2010 . I believe this. I have a BBA and some of the papers that I saw from other students were atrocious. I blame the educational system for continuing to inflate these kids grades and pass them along until they get a diploma. A college education used to mean something. Now its just another notch.
I think this comment shows a lack of understanding of language. Well educated people are easy to understand. Slang etc ...its the challenge for non native speakers and its often more intelligent and colourful than 'educated speech'...but non natives are often baffled by it.
Conclusion < we cannot be perfect 24/7. In my case, specially when I get tired... man, I cannot even speak my own mother tongue in those moments.
24/7 is a colloquial english saying meaning '24 hours a day, 7 days a week', which means all the time. We cannot be perfect all the time!
Tao Yanbao haha! Just assumed you were unaware of the phrase since this is a language channel and all.
dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/24-7 It's used with a hyphen.
is c1 lower than c2
@@soomiewleng5227 yes
I completely understand what you're saying. I am a polyglot and I can say that I only have a C2 level of proficiency in English and Spanish. I have been an English-Spanish interpreter for over twenty years. I have worked in both the medical field as well as the legal field. My focus has always been reaching higher and higher levels of fluency in Spanish, whereas I do not live the other languages. My goal in Spanish was always to speak as well as the typical native-speaker and then some. That is to say, my goal was not only to know what a typical native speaker knows and to speak with the same fluency as a native speaker, rather to have an even higher command of the language. I found that it was not enough to merely speak Spanish like a typical native-speaker, rather I needed to have a much larger vocabulary, greater understanding of grammar, a broader knowledge of specialized terminology, and a greater knowledge of idiomatic expressions, colloquialisms, regionalisms, slang and many other things in order to be able to interpret in the legal field. Attorneys use legalese, idiomatic expressions, metaphors and all other types of language while witnesses and defendants often use colloquialisms, idiomatic expressions, slang, ambiguous language, regionalisms, etc. During a hearing, one may talk about virtually anything and use all registers of speech. I train interpreters and rarely find students who have a high level of proficiency in both languages. They usually are much more dominant in one of the languages. Reaching very high levels of fluency in two languages requires a lot of work and commitment. People who grow up speaking two languages still have great difficulty attaining high levels of fluency in both languages. For example, many children of immigrants born here in the United States often learn their parents' languages for the first five years of their life, but then learn English when they begin school. If they grow up exclusively here in the United States and only attend school where English is taught, they inevitably become English dominant. Many even abandon their "mother tongue" altogether or never actually develop it as well as English which becomes their dominant language. This phenomenon may not be as prevalent in other countries where there are more bilingual schools and it is common for citizens to speak more than one language. Nonetheless, in order for these bilingual people to work as interpreters, they must work extremely hard for many, many years to increase their command of one or both of their languages in order to have the fluency and knowledge necessary to work as an interpreter. High levels of fluency in two languages is just the beginning when it comes to interpreting. After that, one must develop actual interpreting skills. That's a whole other story. You are also correct in saying that there are many people who speak a second language better and more articulately than many native speakers. There are native speakers who are illiterate in their own language, have a very small vocabulary and do not express themselves well. Your example of non-native speakers who have an excellent command of English shows that it is possible to attain a C2 level. It doesn't just happen automatically. The exposure and use of the language at high levels is imperative. It also takes time. It doesn't happen overnight. I tell people that they must choose to adopt the language. For me, adopting Spanish was something I gladly did and my hunger for gaining higher and higher levels of fluency and proficiency in every aspect propelled me and helped me to continually cultivate the language. I've been speaking Spanish for over 30 years and I can attest to the fact that a person doesn't just magically go from not knowing the language to being perfectly fluent. Some people have the impression that there is a line that one crosses and suddenly he or she knows everything. Lol. I always tell people that children have full-time tutors and teachers (their parents, siblings, family) who spoon-feed them the language for many years before they even speak fluently. They are surrounded by the language constantly. Then they go to school and study the language in every class. They read the language, they write the language, they take tests in the language. The play in the language. They fight in the language. They listen to music in the language. They watch television and movies in the language. Even with all of that exposure, they still have to take language classes throughout their schooling. After that, they even take more language classes in college. We must not forget that if one is taking classes in his or her native language, everything that is being taught, read or written is in that language and that represents constant exposure to content. That is an immense amount of exposure, instruction, application and testing. Therefore, it's not just something that happens automatically like others say. If so, no one would have to read, write, or diligently study their native language in many, many subjects in order to master the language.
Your long writing cries that you are not right. You say about your spheres! But what about geology, oil, quarks etc? There is a lot of spheres you don't know anything about. And being SO professional as you say, you must be the first to know about it
I understand you perfectly. To be C2 as a foreigner is much tougher then to be a native speaker. Oftentimes we don't have as much time and as much exposiour as native speakers naturally get without even noticing. At the moment I'm finishing a translated and interpreter degree and must say it's rather difficult and the level is much higher then I had ever expected.
That is very well put and very insightful! Thank you!
@@angelochecklightgurova3981 that's an specific area of knowledge where you can find a lot of cientific language that takes place in other científic areas...of course there are some terms you might have not knowledge of, but that doesn't mean you're not able to attach the new words to your vocabulary with relative ease.
I'm a C2 spanish native speaker, C1 english speaker, and A2 german speaker... I had a lot of exposure to english in the past, but I started to study it a relatively short time ago, i took a placemest test with my university and I obtained a C1, now i'm working hard because I need (personal goal) to have a C2 level. Now for german, I started to learn it and study it couple months ago, I have the desire to live in Germany, planing my first trip this next year. In this order of ideas I MUST become a proficient C2 english and german speaker as soon as possible. I seize this pandemic to help the process, I'm 23 years old, and finished my professional degree the past semester.
I am a native English speaker here, but Spanish is my first second language and I am a C1. I can do just about anything in the language, even academic learning. Where I will fall short of the C2 level is the legal world and deep medical topics. However, most native people don't understand legal jargon or deep medical topics; hell I don't even understand it in English. Arabic is my second foreign language and I am at a B1/B2 level depending on the situation. French is my third foreign language and I am only at a B1 level all the way around. I cannot see myself learning anymore languages since I want to be at C1 (all around) in all my foreign languages and that takes a lot of maintenance and personal time to study and maintain. The more languages you know, the less time for maintenance in each one. Quality over quantity.
So true! I'm going through the same problem: I don't have werther the time or the chance to pratice my languages to maintain all of them in a good level.
prayl00185 بالتوفيق لك 😉
The reason is not in your level, you speak about professional abilities. You don't know medical words, expressions etc because you are not doctor. I think you can't speak about geology or quarks, they are not your sphere. These guys spent their time speaking about nothing as there is no subject for any discussion
I love that! I'm working on my third language and I would like to learn 1-2 more but that's it because I want fluency. I speak English, Spanish, and I'm learning Italian. I also want to learn Russian and Chinese. I don't care to pretend I speak a dozen languages and all I know how to do is ask for directions and order food.
Most natives barely made it through B2
These A1 through C2 levels are meant for foreign language learners and should not be applied to native speakers. There's a huge difference on a neurolinguistic level between first language acquisition and foreign language learning. The average native speaker can easily express any idea they are familiar with. It's not about how many words they know or what topics they can talk about. It is about how natural it is for them to use the necessary means their language has to offer. An uneducated native speaker with a limited vocabulary is still a native speaker. There's nothing "bad" about their language skills, they speak the same way other people around them do. The kind of mistakes foreign language learners make are usually quite untypical of native speakers. Language assessment tests that assign you these proficiency levels are always designed with foreign language learners in mind. They often have a specific purpose as well, such as, to check your knowledge of academic or business vocabulary. Try doing one of these tests as a native speaker, and you're going to feel really weird, because a lot of questions are not even applicable to you if it's your mother tongue. I'm not saying it's going to be easy for you, but you're sure to have a couple of WTF-moments. :)
Very interesting. Thanks!
yes
A couple of things that (my experience!) need to be taken into account when talking about the CEFR: 1 - If someone opens their mouth and has an accent, it doesn't automatically mean they're not C2! Especially in big language communities (like English), natives will sound very differently too and there are natives who even while living in one community, have an accent that seems completely out of place. 2 - It's not just C2 being the biggest jump... when climbing the ladder, the steps always get bigger and bigger. (In other words... getting to A1 is the easiest step! Yay!) 3 - I personally use "A0" to describe myself in languages I'm below A1: people underestimate A1 too, there are conversations you can have and topics you can talk about with A1 too; it's not a level that you can reach with a handful of words or phrases. 4 - Native speakers definitely aren't always C2! An adult native speaker can function at a B2 level too; it just depends on work, background, ... 5 - To expand on the above point... native speakers also go through the entire CEFR spectrum! They start as kids, but even as an adult native you can evolve. CEFR is to describe language level in general and is (logically) used by learners, but can be applied to natives as well. (Note however that when it comes to language testing and certificates, those are generally aimed at non-natives.) 6 - Each level is not an exact pinpoint... it's more of a range/spectrum. People better or worse than you at a language can still be the same CEFR level. 7 - Sometimes, not being able to understand someone doesn't have to do with their/your language level at all: coherence, abundance of unnecessary details, visual/auditory input etc. all matter too, even to being a bit socially awkward and accidentally giving irrelevant answers. 8 - A1 is not "speaking badly" and C2 is not "speaking really well": it's more a matter of your range of topics, colloquialisms, receptive processing speed, accuracy of the vocabulary you have, ...
Where do claims like "natives aren´t C2" or "some natives are B2" come from? I know tons of people who passed the German C1 exam with pretty high scores and speak excellent German but they are not at the level of the average native speaker, not by a long shot. Have there even been studies where large numbers of natives had to take these exams and failed? Even if there were, it would probably have more to do with prescriptivism ("proper" language is correct and "normal" language is wrong), skills that are not 100% language skills (critical thinking, writing skills, intelligence) and test preparation. Maybe we´re all just arguing semantics here^^
These CEFR levels refer to a non-native's command of a particular language. Of course, there are also native speakers with varying degrees of education, eloquence etc., but it's just not right to use these levels for the language skills of a native speaker. I don't know about other countries, but in the Netherlands, government and education institutions use different "scales" for assessing language skills of native speakers and non-native speakers. Often, and probably for apparent ease of use, these CEFR levels are used for the assessment of the difficulty/complexity of a particular written text, but technically this is not correct. A native speaker tends to know an awful lot more about their society, its history and so on, so a text that is perfectly clear to a native speaker with a low level of their language may not be clear at all to a non-native speaker who has a similar command of the language.
I agree
So true, you can make no mistakes and still be at A1. That just means you have fully reached that level and can move on to the next one.
@@derpauleglot9772I wouldn't say my grandma, who can barely read and write, is at a C2 (or even C1) level in her native language, French. She also has trouble understanding anything outside of simple conversations about her daily life or church. Try to talk about anything slightly specific or job related, and she will not understand anything. Granted, it's mostly because she stopped going to school at 11 and missed a lot of it even before then, but she's still a native french speaker. So just because someone is a native speaker doesn't mean they have a high CEFR level in that language, especially not C2.
I've read the descriptors and it seems to me that Jan is a functional C2 level speaker. I can't vouch for his writing and reading ability but judging from the content of this video, he is highly fluent with hardly any accent, a very good control of grammar and idiomatic English and he showed no difficulty in understanding or following the conversation. Being C2 does not mean you speak EXACTLY like a native speaker does, with all their quirks. It means you speak the language cleanly and in a spontaneous natural way--and I think Jan does that.
I don’t think he has a C2 level speaking, it’s very slow and disjointed and he misses out key words in sentences and doesn’t say the sentence correctly quite often. We can understand him perfectly but if you pay attention it’s not grammatically correct a lot. Still, if I could get to half his level of English with my Spanish in my lifetime then I would be very happy
@byebrows9698 if you ask an IELTS or Cambridge examiner, I'm pretty sure they would grade him as C2
@@flaze3 that’s the whole point of the video mate…listen to what Olly says.
@byebrows9698 as I said in my first comment, C2 does not mean native level. It means meeting the criteria of various descriptors of language ability, and Jan meets these descriptors. Does that mean he speaks as well as a university educated native speaker? No. Does it matter? No. 👍
I came across this video while studying Venetian, and I'm very glad I did (even though it isn't about Veneto!) I think the real reason many people think they are C1 when they are not is that as they make their progress through the lower levels, they receive so much feedback from native speakers that help them assess their successes and their mistakes. But between B2 and C1, you're really good enough that you can usually communicate quite well and native speakers are less concerned with correcting you or giving you feedback of any sort. So many people mistakenly believe that they aren't making any mistakes. They can be disabused of that notion pretty quickly though if you ask them to write a high-school level essay and get that essay corrected by a native speaker! My two cents. Great video!
Oh, that is actually a very important topic you discuss! Thank you for the video!
I'd rather be B2 in 5 foreign languages than C2 in 1. Your English is perfect enough not to care anymore.
@Glühfunke yeah I get you, most benefits only come after you reach a certain level. To me comprehension is the most important, if I understand practically everything I'm happy if my response takes a little more effort. If speaking is for whatever reason important for me in that specific language I'll automatically use it enough to improve as long as I understand.
You‘re right since B2 is much easier to get. I have already B2 in English and French and only A2 in Spanish. Unfortunately, I‘ve never understood how to get to C2, I think the lack of intelligence then gets a barrier.
@@bennyblue8904 Of course it's not a lack of intelligence, unless you're not even able to learn your native language (don't say that to yourself). It's just that reaching an almost native level of fluency takes loads of time and reading and listening to difficult content. Once the vocab and grammar is there you need to speak lots and lots (consider how much you speak in your native language). The question isn't if you can but rather do you want to learn it to such a high level.
@@declan8577 my native language isn’t even English, it‘s German
@@declan8577 English isn’t even my native language, it’s German and I think I’m definitely C2 in my mother tongue
As a native English speaker, I can tell you without a doubt, that your English is much better than many uneducated native English speakers that I have had to deal with in my career. Your English is amazing!
Yeah but you don't merely need to beat the level of English spoken by badly educated native speakers to have C2 level. Roughly, C2 is the equivalent of university educated native speaker. Clearly, his English is excellent, nearly spotless, and he may or may not be a C2 speaker. Determining that would require further investigation, you can't judge from every day conversation. You would need to know if he is able to write a technical manual in his area of expertise or write a critique of a literary piece for instance.
@@BlunderCity " You would need to know if he is able to write a technical manual in his area of expertise" Can you give me a source for that?
I think the CEFR scale is like: A1 - 10% of an average native person vocabulary and 10% of grammar A2 - 20/30 B1 - 35/50 B2 - 50/75 C1 - 60/90 C2 - 70/95
a daily conversation is at B2, news report is at C1, college level reading and writing is at C2.
Your benchmark is too high since the vast majority of natives definitely do have C2, as they are able to watch movies, read common books and function in the social milieu. Nevertheless, just extremely educated native speakers can read medical, legal, philosophical and technical literature with more or less full comprehension. Consequently, the assertion that only natives with Ph.D. have C2 is greatly exaggerated.
At the end of the video, Olly told everyone to actually look at the description of C2. You obviously didn't. Most natives are not at C2 and will never be.
@@nerzenjaeger You don't know how wrong you are roflmao. "Most natives are not at C2 and will never be." For real? The vast majority of natives are far higher than C2 easily.
Great comment. That's what I was thinking too. Olly is enganging in self-flaggelation here. 😂🤣
Great video! I think people spend too much time worrying about their levels. I have major test anxiety, so I have 0 interest in taking any kind of language test. For me, real world testing is the best. Did I understand everything that native speaker said...yes or no? If no, what vocab am I missing? Am I able to read this history book without using a dictionary too much? Am I able to understand this tv show in my target language? Can I understand news talk radio? Was I able to say what I wanted to say or did I forget a word? That, at least, to me is what is most important.
I absolutely agree with Olly here. He took the words right out of my mouth on the topic.
Orgil best comment on the whole thread! :)
Very relevant perspective on the process of evaluation in general. By articulating so clearly the psychological traps associated with the labels you kind of free up your mind to advance in all the ways you perceive as important. Cool!
This is so interesting, guys! I think this C2 level is just a label and it all boils down to how you define it. The definition provided by the European framework is far from being perfect. As for myself, I have a degree in English, C2 exam, I’ve read dozens of novels, scientific papers, listened to hours and hours of scientific and political discussions. I’ve also written many academic essays and papers and given many lectures about translation and linguistics. There are a lot of uneducated native speakers of English who wouldn’t be able to do this BUT if I were engaged in an everyday conversation with these people, they could immediately tell I am not a native speaker because the way I express myself is not as idiomatic as theirs although I can talk about anything that I can also talk about in my native language. I think this is what the European framework fails to take into account. On the one hand, you have a native speaker who cannot express himself in formal/academic discourse and has a limited knowledge of vocabulary, and on the other hand, there is this scholar or diplomat who can use the language professionally in any situation but does not speak as idiomatically in everyday conversations as the native speakers do. PS By my standards, Jan does have a C2 in English.
I have to disagree wth You. Jan does not have such level yet. Due to various reasons, not only his pronounciation, obviously strongly influenced by his native language but also due to his lexicon and grammar structures which he uses. And no, C2 is not merely a label. It means one can grasp both very intricate aspects of grammar and is familiar with vocabulary which even many native speakers are not familiar with due to the fact that this vocabulary is used more in a literature than in a spoken language. So this is the level which native speakers can reach if they pursue linguistic studies in their own language. If some who passed C2 exam has problems with idioms or phrasal verbs or with collocations, this person is simply at low C2 level. People with decent C2 level do not have such issues. Sure even native speakers do not know everything. And even C2 level non-natives, even are not expert on every topic when it comes to vocabulary. I for example know fewer names for particular types of fish in Polaish than I know in English. Why? My dad hates fishing but I love biology myself, so haveing English as one of my three native languages I simply learned more about fish by watching various documentaries but never been fishing with my dad. And I do not too many vulgar words in Russian typical for adult language since we moved out of Russia before I turned 18, so my adolscence language wasn't developing in Russian-speaking social setting. I also had some courses in translation for specific purposes and I've met people whose English on serious topics like medicine or law, which I'm good at, was very poor but who for example were excellent at Black American slang which is not something that I fancy too much. So yes, there is certain level of diversity at C2 level too and there is diversity amoing native speakers. But all people at C2 levels (cerifiied, not imagined) share some comon ground when it comes to awareness of various aspects of grammar and when it comes to more sophisticated lexicon in general language. As for C2 Spanish- people with C2 level knw what seseo is and how it works in various Spanish speaking countires for example, whereas a native speaker from Argentina might be asking a native speaker from Madrid why people in Madrid joke about his pronounciation. So native speaker might be using some local version of a language without being aware how it's related to a standard version of a particular language whereas C2 level person might explain where it comes from, how it works and how to switch from this local version to a standard version. This is a kind of a C2 level knowledge. I often talk to women living in Spanish speaking countries who study Spanish at this level and when they ask native speakers about certain aspects of language usage very often they encounter very low levels of awarness related to both rules of proper usage, most common mistakes, existence of certain aspects of language usage. Natives just do things because this the way people around them do those things. Not always correctly. C2 non natives know where those things come from, how to do the correctly and why and when some natives do them incorrectly.
among and not amoing, otherwise mostly agree with you.....
The thing is that language skill, just like many other things, isn't linear. It's composed of a huge range of separate knowlege and skills that are different for every single person. No system of profficiency tests can possibly completely describe the range of different types of profficiency. Perhaps having a system that measured multiple types of profficiency would be better, but maybe not, since it would make things confusing and would still be a simplification. PS: As for native speakers using different dialects, I just want to point at that your judgement of people's speech as "wrong" is usually just a property of what dialect you're striving for. There's certainly no reason why Peruvians should start speaking peninsular Spanish.
I knew I was not a C1 speaker, let alone C2. But I didn't know what my actual English level was, nor how to compare it until I tried storytelling. Oh boy, little did I know...I had no clue what I was doing, not even in my native language. This is why, in my opinion, I consider most native speakers of any language to be either B2 or C1. My scientific and technical writing in my own native language was hard to improve. I realised that when I was in college. But I think it is even harder when it comes to storytelling and reading books (novels). There are so many words, and many ways to use them even a native speaker won't fully understand. Now imagine that in a second language. Find a book, a novel, written in your target language. Read it, and see how far you get before you get so frustrated. When you're done with that, now try writing a short story. Creative writing, be poetic, please.
Well put. I couldn't agree more.
It's not about topics and it's not about mistakes. It's about the subtlety of meaning, both conveying that subtlety and understanding it when spoken or when written. It's like a jeweller's tool kit; it's so fine that it can manipulate even the smallest pieces to make meaningful differences. B2 is like having orindary screw drivers and spanners. A2 is like having the tool kit that comes with your car, and A1 is like just having a tyre iron. You can still do stuff with a tyre iron, but you can disassemble fine jewellery. I am confident that I am a C2 in English (my native language), but I am forever glancing to the right when I listen to Swedes speak (Swedes who have EXCELLENT English). My glancing to the right is my own private way of acknowledging that they slightly misused a word, or implied the wrong thing with a tense, e.g. You will VERY often hear Swedes say "If I would stop eating so much then I could lose weight." They MEAN "If I were to stop eating so much, then I would lose weight." That error, plus literally hundreds of other tiny things means that they have a miniature tool kit, but not a jeweller's tool kit. Also, working in a company for many years is no guarantee of reaching that level. I have heard many CEOs and managers etc. of Australian companies who come from Germany, Sweden, Russia etc. who have been here for YEARS, managing these companies in English, and they say werd things that are wrong or not the meaning they intended.
Yo I love the honesty Mr Richard !
Agree guys! - for me the biggest 2 jumps are B2 - C1 - as in my English to Italian and French. Both I spoke as a kid, now thinking in a language is almost intuitive but the next level of nuance is enormous! B2/C1 is (secondo me) normal function in most situations!
A good explanation. Thank you.
This is a great topic and discussion. There are many native speakers who are not at C2 level, particularly in writing.
Ive been on the internet, most native speakers aren't C2 :D
What an interesting topic, guys! There's so much to say about it that I'm not even sure I should chime in with just a couple of lines. It's really a matter of defining C2 as opposed to native-like, isn't it? If we say that C2 is a big challenge even to native speakers (because of the sky-high literacy that those descriptors imply), then we must also say that you can get to master a foreign language to a native-like level, without necessarily getting to a C2 level (because lots of native speakers will not be at C2 either). Molto, molto interessante!
I agree with you, people tend to underestimate the advanced levels, there is a big gap between B2 and C1, I can't speak about the difference between C1 and C2 because I have never reached this level in a foreign language. You are also right regarding most of the exams, some of my students managed to take and pass the DELF and DALF without really having the level that is accurately described in the CEFR.
Bravo pour votre honnêteté intellectuelle et votre franchise. Effectivement le niveau C2 est très difficile à atteindre dans les quatre compétences. Comme vous êtes de brillants polyglottes j'écris en français. Merci encore pour votre vidéo/
When I was younger, I set myself goals in form of the official reference levels I wanted to achieve in various languages. Imagining the work I would have to put into practising reading, writing, speaking etc., knowing that I didn´t even want to "master" all those skills within a language, made me give up on learning some of them. Nowadays, I have (for me) much more realisitic goals. For each language I want to learn, I wrote down what skills aside from speaking, I want to focus on. I know I´ll never be able to consider myself having achieved any of the official language levels, but I don´t mind. I´m fine knowing I can get by conversationally, reading books I´m interested in, or write my own stories in those languagues. Whether I´d see myself as a C2-speaker of my own native language is never something I seriously thought about. Since I´ve heard that C2 equaled being a native speaker, I had assumed I´d automatically be one and wouldn´t be able to reach this kind of level in any foreign language. This video and many comments have showed me different perspectives I hadn´t considered before. However, I think that solely assigning someone a certain level based on mastery of all tasks and abilities someone could think of is one, quite harsh, and two, not necessary (if you don´t need a specific proficiency for a job).
This video is on point.
According to this video my Turkish and Spanish are still B2, but I know I’m really close to leveling them to C1, especially once I started talking about spirituality and psychedelics in those languages and then when I started writing about complex rabbit hole shit, I know I was on to something
C2 is someone that can understand anything in english and can also make himself understood in it's field by using the correct technical terms. A native is someone that thinks, dreams and lives the language. Being C2 does not mean your proficiency in the language is going to be the same as an educated native, and we should not pretend that it is that or diminish the effort of those certified. C2 just means you can defend yourself without help on an english speaking environment. I think the real barrier is starting to think in the other language instead of thinking in x, translating to y and then speak it. For me, if you can think and express yourself fluently on any particular language then you are already at C2.
I think my Russian is almost at C2. Mind you, I was raised speaking Russian and then studied it on my own but my actual mother tongue is Spanish. I still make spelling mistakes, even after years of trying to fix it by reading literature in Russian. However, my accent is basically non-existant, Russians never suspect I am not Russian when I am talking to them. My vocabulary is also kind of limited and there's no way a native speaker with my level of education would have as big of a gap in vocabulary as I do. Some less educated native speakers might. Now, when it comes to English, I recently passed my C2 exam but I am sure my English is nowhere near perfect. I also took the C1 exam for German last year while literally making basic grammar mistakes. 😅 So I definitely think your grades on an exam like that don't reflect your actual knowledge, especially at higher levels.
Россияне не принимают вас за иностранца, потому что 80-90% населения не является русскими. Большинство говорит либо с выраженным акцентом, либо использует региональный диалект.
@@putinisakiller8093да пи***т он не знает он русского
The problem with the descriptors is that they are theoretical idealisations that have not yet been revised since they were written. A C2 level is, at the end of the day, what a good C2 exam measures, which has been revised on multiple occasions and where every single item has been piloted many times before appearing in an exam paper. I dare say anybody who gets an A on their Proficiency cert is a C2 user (speaking is only one skill and not the one we use the most either - that's listening). Another issue is that comparing an L2 speaker with native speakers is just ridiculously pointless as they are NOT native speakers and being one is not necessarily always an advantage when it comes to communication. Summing up: a C2 level is what an average C2 cert holder represents, excluding those who just scraped through the test through sheer luck. If we assume that only a few native and non-native speakers reach a C2, then we should probably stop caring about it altogether. I choose to believe, however, that a C2 level is a real thing that's out there :D
Mateusz Pietraszek I agrrr
When is the last time you (Jan and Olly) read the descriptors? They were updated earlier this year and they no longer use the "native speaker" as the gold standard.
I'm at a B2 in Portuguese in reading. Yes, Mr. Olly, I've read the descriptions and taken the test. My oral and written ability in Portuguese might be a B1. I'm a high B2 in reading. Yes, people don't take the test cold, apparently. I did. I think many don't take the test at all. Just guess. For a C2 people need to go to the country; I know I do. It must be spoken all the time. Nice video.
Hey Mark! How have you been? I've missed practice languages with you.
I like the estimate that each level on CEFR takes twice as long again as the level below. So, if A1 takes somebody 200 hours, A2 will take that person roughly an additional 400 hours, B1 an additional 800 hour, C1 an additional 1600 hours, and C2 an additional 3200. That is, a total of 6300 hours (1 hour a day for more than 17 years).
Anthony Lauder that’s great
17 years??? No.
you forgot b2 level, it means that there are more hours
@@SantiagoMartinez-ix2fc Which roughly comes down to the 10,000 hour rule more or less. Haha. Awesome that you caught the mistake.
It really bothers me, for example, when a lot of other teachers on Italki list seven languages (including ancient Greek and Latin!) at C2 on their profile and they look twenty years old! Gelul!
You are talking about apples and oranges here. A person who speaks at a C2 level is a person who has passed a C2 level test. Period. How that person compares to a typical native speaker in a practical speaking setting is an entirely different matter. It is worth noting that it is possible that a person who passes a C2 level might not be as fluent as a native speaker, even while having a proficiency in the language (as measured by an exam) which may be equal or even better. It is certainly possible that a native speaker could fail a C2 level test, depending on their education level.
B2 or C2, the most important thing is if you are able to make yourself understood or not. This is related to your ability that you are able to explain something logically and/or easily rather than your language skill.
With your description, loads of British are not C2 as well in English.
I'm German and I think that C2 in English is even hard for natives. I can claim to have this but I'm actually much more advanced than the average English speaker in conversations because I can use very advanced and educated vocabulary and talk about any topic with ease actually much better than in my mother tongue German. But that's because English has much more vocabulary and so when I speak German I actually struggle and search for words which doesn't exist and even my teachers who obviously obtained the C2 certificate had to ask me frequently for vocabulary. I also did C2 in French, Have the highest degree in Chinese and Japanese but I still find myself struggling in some situations in those languages despite my exams. Especially in Speaking because some vocabulary is just passive knowledge so I can read those words but I'm not actively using them in adequate situations. So they actually made a good point here which is absolutely true.
.no you don't you make mistakes
I think an important question is how much this kind of communicative competence even has to do with language ability. Even someone with obvious deficits in their language ability can be very persuasive or very knowledgable in the jargon of a particular field. Likewise, someone who is very skilled with all of the types of interactions THEY have to do is not necessarily going to skilled if they have to communicate about something they don't know about, or in a context they know nothing about or in a context they're not used to.
I think I can test higher on a test than I could actually perform in real life because I need more practice listening and speaking in Spanish. But when I read and write the pressure is off.
I don't know if I agree with you on your evaluation. C2 means you can function well in any given circumstances without struggle, but you shouldn't really take microlanguages into account, they are their own thing. Of course, at a C2, you could virtually talk about every topic you can think of at a conversational level. Jargon is what you learn and use when you are a professional in one field, which doesn't mean that people who do not understand it are not at a C2 level. Each and everyone of us has a more or less limited understanding of specialised languages, which depends on our level of education and knowledge of that particular field of expertise and has nothing to do with our language skills. I think you are probably being a little too strict with your definition, imho.
My test, can you freestyle rap in the language while staying on topic and ascribe meaning to every verse? If so i do believe you have a high enough control of the language, (and bonus points if you make up words that are understood by native speakers)
Anyway. Y'all tag yourselves, I'm the guy who almost fell into the Venetian canal @ 0:31 just to get a photo.
to reach the c2 level we need to spend 9 or 12 years, depends on the person, study only one language that we want to. that's kind of thing we, as polyglot don't do it,cause we are so anxious and excited that we can't handle ourselves study just only one language for 9 years.it's impossible.! so the c2 becomes for another zeus in this earth, not us hahaha.
I read myself in your comment hahahah! totally agree!
If a language is from the same family, you can reach C2 much sooner. Spaniards can reach C2 in Italian within 2-3 years, in Portuguese even sooner.
I went to school in Australia up to grade 6, the rest of my life I have been in Spain. My parents are Spanish and my husband is Spanish. I am a university Tourism Graduate in Spain. I worked for 6 years organizing international medical and scientific congresses (business travel). I am bilingual. Native speakers have always considered me a native speaker, however I, more often than not, would get comments from spaniards saying " your english is not native because you didn't finish school in an english speaking country..." When I decided to start teaching English, I sat for Cambridge Proficiency - without even preparing it-, and my score was 221 out of 230 (Grade A). I wish I could rub it in their faces...😅
I'm not an English native speaker by any means, but I also took the CPE exam without any preparations (except for timing myself for writing and looking through the task formats the night before) and got 222 points:) Up to that point, I had studied English for around 18 years, and had taken PTE (B1) and IELTS exams. That made me understand that, if you have an idea about the types of the tasks and how to handle them, you can receive a higher mark regardless of your real level. Also, your accent does count in speaking lol. I've mastered my UK English accent to the point that British native speakers think I'm Brummy, and that definitely added me some points, as I received an A for speaking even though I thought I wouldn't (stuttered a lot and couldn't quite finish my thought during the monologue part).
According to Cambridge I'm a C1, and I've really enjoyed doing C2 tests (also the process of learning) but I don't have any need to sit again for that kind of evaluations. At the moment I'm doing TOEFL to hopefully win a scholarship. PS:My mother tongue is Spanish, and I speak a little bit of French; I'd love to learn Russian, and master French. Thanks for reading.
Judging from your writing, you do seem like a C1. That's better than most natives.
4:45 Mates, I think you are confusing C2 level with specialized language.
1. People typically underestimate the difficulty level of C2 2. C2 is 100%
Interesting stuff boys. Here in Australia this fluency scale is pretty foreign to me. It seem though that perhaps there's a discrepancy between testing for C2 and actually speaking it. Like Olly said, how can a test account for years and years of professional level experience? I think reaching such a level would be a lifelong goal for maybe only your most cherished languages.
Waar zijn jullie? Leuke grachten! Groetjes uit Uruguay in Zuid-Amerika
Being paragon of key attributes marked by What is widely acclaimed as cogency,laconicity, ingenuity and glibness with regard to articulateness in terms of recondite and abstruse topics posing a considerable challenge to a mind not driven by agility and sanity of mind ,thus ,demonstrating incompetency with respect to fastidious attention to details encompassing the finer shades of meaning even in texts dominated by obscurity ,you are ,without a shadow of doubt, an embodiment of how an assiduous learner armed with ingenuity and ingenuousness Climbs ladder of ascendancy despite paucity of credible source of information about how to learn a new language from the rudimentary level up to consummacy in expressiveness.
I like the points you guys make, especially saying that native speakers don't necessarily have a C2 level. Essentially, C2 doesn't equal native speaker. Tbh, I don't know if trying to fit a C2 is actually that useful. Personally I've spent 6 years at uni studying and writing in English up to Masters level and even though I am comfortable with academic writing and research, I wouldn't be sure whether I'm a C2. I would say I'm at least very close. But it doesn't matter. I can work in England and my level of English would never be an obstacle for me to get a job. I don't actually believe it's that useful to reach a C2 level or at least I cannot imagine a situation where a C2 level would be required... I'd like to know if I'm wrong!
That's only if you believe the idea that C2 is that high, but it's not. I even think all the homework you did at university pass the description. Cefr is just for non-native speakers to find the right classroom. And be tested on their skills.
There are (a few) doctoral programs that require a C2 certification for non native speakers.
Reaaaally. Whereabouts? Here in England I've never heard of it!
There is no C2 for tests of English. IELTS is 0 - 9. I assume 9 is equivalent to C2. TOEFL is 0 - 120. TOEIC is 10 - 990. So, when people say C2 in English they're being imprecise. A teacher of French as a foreign language in France described the levels to me and how they're used. In France, B2 is the minimum requirement for international students for all university programs in French. Some programs require C1 and a handful of doctoral programs at some Grandes Écoles, a C2.
Well, I’m a native Spanish speaker and have interpreted professionally (politics) and I’m a B2/C1 (my comprehension is 100% but producing the language can be challenging at the highest levels). IMO B2 for your 2nd, 3rd, 4th languages and beyond is more than ok, it’s functionally perfect!
... I agree being B2 is more than good enough for everyday interactions. I would say C1 is the highest that someone who is not doing a specific field should try to attain.
Yes, I don't plan to even try to get any of my foreign languages above C1. I'm at B2 in French working toward C1, and I find that there are a lot of skills to master before I'll truly be a C1 (academic or business writing, for instance). My aim is to be a multilingual tour guide, and the requisite skills for that are somewhere between B2 and C1, I expect.
what languages do you speak buddy?
Raul N French at B2 (maybe half-way to C1), Japanese and Spanish at B1 (at least half-way to B2, I expect), and I was briefly at B1 in Russian last year. I'm learning other languages, but I'm still a beginner at them. How about you, Raul?
Andy Roberts English at B2 or C1 I guess and Spanish is my native language, I want to learn German and French (Quebec) would love to star both at once but am not quite sure to do that.
Raul N I just started German on my own, there is actually a lot of material out there. You can use duolingo for basic grammar and vocabulary, but also watch KZhead tutorials for hose things. If you just google “1000” most used German verbs you find huge lists of verbs and can google their conjugations. There are also many good German language learning series on KZhead. Easy German and extr@ German episodes are great. You can use those for vocabulary or also just google the most used German words. There are many approved and verified websites out there, just be careful! Good luck!
Tough decision! It's easier to focus on one language at a time than to split your attention between two of them--plus I find it easier to mix them up if I start two languages at the same time, even if they're not related to each other. But it's certainly possible to start two languages at the same time, if you have a lot of free time. In high school, I took a beginner Japanese course and at the same time, I taught myself some Spanish. My advice is to start one language, wait at least six months, then start the other. But it's not absolutely necessary.
I'd say modern children now in typical working class schools in UK have terrible literacy, even more so than when I was at school 10 years ago. I always struggle trying to dissect and explain this point coherently... There seems to be an inconsistency: Such people (teenagers or adults even) are poorly literate, inarticulate, can't write, can't speak properly, make many mistakes, can't read properly and can't understand lots of kinds of speech... then someone else might say 'But they are still native!'. This is true, but something seems wrong to me. I mean, yes they are native, but I don't think that really contributes much, linguistically speaking, to the actual level they have in a language, in which case we might conclude that a foreigner could somehow be 'more native', as it were, than an actual native. Of course, that's probably not the right wording, but I hope the point was conveyed. The ultimate question that is raised here, at least one of them, is whether it's possible to fully distinguish between Language and Knowledge, if so, then to what extent? and if not, why not? How are they alike, in what ways to do they overlap? You can see now why I am a philosophy graduate.
When I first read the Framework, given the way it is written, I would place most Australians who completed only high school at around B2... Most Bachelors graduates at C1 and those at higher levels at C2. Mostly because people do not usually have the vocabulary, nor a strong grasp of English at lower levels of schooling. I have always been particularly strong in language, and I have native speaker associates who have to ask me to use more simple language if I forget who I am with. If I was to use Olly’s more specific definition of wielding language to discuss highly specific topics, then many tradespeople would fit here, as they have knowledge of specific language. It is very difficult to separate out the skills of communication from the possession of specific knowledge, simply because skill in the first is displayed when one has higher levels of knowledge. And it is difficult to know if one has a higher skill in communication if one does not have a higher level of knowledge.
Exactly, which is why I believe that most language proficiency tests are over designed what they really need to test for
I didn’t find the link to the C2 description
I was awarded a C2 Trinity, but I'm not that cocky to claim to have that level. Not even in my wildest dream, I'm nowhere near that outcome and still have many many words, expressions, terms, sentences, idiomatic expressions, phrasal verbs to learn and discover. I'm C1 at best from my pov. I strongly recommend everyone to do the Trinity exam(at least the spoken part), as it's a stroll in the park as my consideration. The C2 is material for everybody from B2/C1 upward, every single person at that point is capable of passing the C2 Trinity speaking task the way I see it. Regarding me, I can communicate fluently with everyone about several topics(except from the very unfamiliar ones and the ones of not common use), but by the same token I somewhat struggle to size up an opinion and express my idea in a fluid manner in the topics come a bit abstract. I'm able to read almost all kind of news from an handful of sources and develop several essays or reports about a decent range of ideas brainstorming sth interesting and using an appropriate and accurate lexicoon and vocabulary. I can listen to, let's say, vast quantity of videos, but I sometimes go off point if the speaker speeds up too way too much. I've to improve a lot and still make lots of mistakes. I would be able to hold conferences only about my comfort zone and familiar areas. I strive for perfection, so I'm working hard on reaching the next level. I attend an english school and share a texchat with some friends. In addiction, I can mention that succeeding in that exam was the flukest comeover ever imo, my report is that that was a sheer and mere stroke of luck. I can fathom most of what I hear, but not everything, so having hard times to figure out mostly songs' lyrics and fast slang videos. Never embarked any journeys abroad, never been on vacation in a foreiger country, I'm italian and have always studied english as a second language from my nation of origin. In conclusion, I wanna underline how the integrity and seriousness of certain C2 certificates should reperesent and hot issue related to how soft and easy they are and how stricter examiner should be up to a certain extent. I'm cheerful to have that piece of paper in my hands, but at the same time I don't consider it as fully and totally earned, honestly. I'll maybe turn into a true C2 in the future, but it's very far flung as understatement, not foreseeable by any means, need lot and lot of hard work and to live away for years and not only leaving Italy for a few months on holiday. I'm grateful and thankful towards the examiner I came across to last year once sat for the exam, but I don't attribute myself that high level, I'm not there by a countrymile. Need to interact with mother tongues daily for hours and hours and in a reiterate manner to get closer. But also, as you mentioned, being surrounded by a specific environment wich regards certain subjects and some matters.
I am about to take the C2 test in English in November and I suddenly don't feel very confident that I would pass it ... Although I studied in English, my best friend is American and we talk on a daily basis and I started to really study for the test a month ago ... Could need some encouragement here please 😄
Did you take the C2 exam? How did it go? Did you pass?
So I went to Wikipedia and I definitely feel like every single criteria for C2 fits on my English (English Wikipedia didn't have the detailed criteria but Swedish Wikipedia did), and that they are more lenient than Olly makes it seem. He almost made me think I wasn't C2 in English! hahah
You are not C2.
@@nerzenjaeger And you can tell from one comment? Sorry, if the definition of C2 is "better than a native speaker" then that's a stupid definition. I use English every single day, listening, reading, writing, speaking. There are many topics that I struggle discussing in my native language because I learned about the topic /in English/. Not long ago an Irish girl, sitting next to me, hearing me talk, thought I was American before I said where I was from. So basically what I'm saying is fuck you.
El problema es que las habilidades se entrenan por separado aunque yo soy nativo del español entiendo de ciencia he leido y escrito mucho no podría participar activamente en una conversación fluida y dinámica como lo haría por ejemplo alguien que si este todo el tiempo hablando de eso. Lo mismo ocurre con la política, la historia, etcétera
My best friend is from de USA and he has lived in my country for 30 years, and he speakes spanish perfectly, but almost perfectly, do you know what i mean, you`ll never be perfect, just almost perfect...
at I’m at a good B2 level in Italian and wanna reach a C1 level in it next year. And personally I think C1 is already very good. Also my English isn’t perfect, I know it’s good enough for my needs and I don’t wanna stress about it. I assume that I’m at a C1 level in English and that’s good enough for me. I don’t wanna reach more, since I don’t live in an English speaking environment and though see no advantages in it. It always depends what you want though.
What language level corresponds to understanding native comedy shows?
I’ve just got a C2 certificate and I can definitely say that my English is not even close to being perfect. There is still so much to improve even if you’ve reached C2 level. And just saying I took a CAE test and I was not expecting to get C2 band.
C2 doesn't mean perfect anyway. It's high academic levels in the target language.
This was a depressing video. After 20+ years, I have a difficult time reaching A2 in French. So, it will only take me 120 more years to reach C2?
I think it's much more meaningful to say how many hours' exposure/practice you've spent with the language rather than years. How many hours have you spent?
@@Mosesnick Good question. My main problem is that I don't have a routine. Even worse, I don't know how to construct a solid routine.
@@quebecer4605 I would propose a five-fold plan: 1) Google "natural language acquisition" - there is a big difference between learning and acquisition. 2) Keep yourself immersed in the target language for at least an hour a day - listen to music, watch news and/or silly youtube videos, dial a radio station, just about anything that makes your brain hear the language). Bear in mind you DO NOT have to understand what is being said/sung. Your brain just needs hours upon hours of audio input to be able to start creating new "library" in that language. 3) Start going through a list of a few thousand most commonly used words in the language. Google the app "Anki". 4) Start watching Netflix/TV/KZhead shows in the language WITH subtitles IN THE LANGUAGE - so you can see the words as well as hear them at the same time. 5) Get a language partner and/or a tutor, anyone wilking to talk to you in that language. You'll see miracles.
Just open a book and start reading it and use google translator whatever you dont understand a word
@@abhinavchauhan7864 Not a bad advice, however it seems pretty important to make sure the book is written in simple enough language, so the learner doesn't have to translate every other word, yet still interesting story-wise. ;o)
Did anyone noticed the guy in the blue shirt saying yeah every five seconds?
Lucas, ¿cómo has conseguido ese acento tan británico? Pocos españoles lo consiguen. Solamente algunos profesores de inglés y las personas con muchos estudios, como el Rey.
Good topic. Yeah. Of course c2 is doable. The issue, however, is for polyglots, its.not easy to do in multiple languages. Even a person that speaks 10 languages very nicely, may only have one C2 LANGUAGE (besides mother tongue). That's fine though. if u don't work in a language, C1 Is enough to speak of countless topics at high levels.
I think I'm not C2 in any foreign language, because there's always slang connotations I'm not able to grasp. I fell like I would be able to function well at an academic level with no problems, but when it comes to street chatting, I'm week. I personally would define C2 a follows: "you know the grammar and all formal language, now you're able to go on learning the 'real' everyday language, as spoken in real-life situations by actual native speakers, on your own".
I believe C2 can be achieved by non-native speakers, if the learner begins to live in the language (as opposed to just studying it), once they reach the B1 / B2 level. I recently received my B2 certification in German, and I've been incorporating German more into my everyday life. I still study for an hour a day, but outside of that, I also read books, watch movies, listen to podcasts, write in my journal, etc. all in German. C2 can never be achieved by only "studying" a language.
The problem/confusion with "high level" 2nd language learners vs "low level" native speakers comes from the definition of what a language actually is. Native speakers are usually "perfect" speakers of their language, but "their language" doesn't necessarily equal the "standard variety" in the language continuum that "their language" belongs to. The native speaker will be able to communicate everything that is a typical communication situation in his/her environment. You can't separate language from communication context/environment. You can get an idea of that when Olly mentions he couldn't hold a decent conversation in English in a scientific context despite being a native English speaker. The CEFR (or at least its tests and certificates) refer mainly to the standard variety of a language to make language learning on an academic path comparable. Some guy from the hood in the US may sound to have poor English, but it's only poor according to the standard variety. He most likely speaks it perfectly in the "hood"-context. On the other side, some foreigner fresh out of university with a masters degree in English literature may have a C2 in English and is perfectly capable to communicate everything he wants in an academic context, but he might run into trouble when he gets into the hood as he doesn't have a firm grip of the language variety spoken there.
Love the audio outro! LOL I'm probably not considered C2 in English after becoming a polyglot and mixing the syntax in native language with all the others. ;)
Conor Clyne - Tsar Experience LOL! So true :)
Bollox. You're a native speaker, end of. D+++++ Shame about the Irish accent though ;) Seriously, I think this vid is wide of the mark. About to post a comment above. Happy to be corrected and educated, but I'm posting my first thoughts.
I’m happy to hear that you made it until the end of the video :)
All very interesting stuff! :))
Join the club.
I took the CPE C2 just recently - and passed quite comfortably. Sure, that doesn't contradict the message of this video. However, I think you're wrong here. You're too strict. You built a strong argument by talking about the frame of reference and not just babbling. I agree, for sure there are many candidates who clearly shouldn't pass a C2 test in terms of that reference and yet do so anyway (for various reasons that come naturally with any exam). Nevertheless, the frame of reference still is a foggy/abstract category that you can interpret one way or the other when applying on candidates (you could argue with it the other way around, too). The best way to apply it still is, in spite of it's flaws, the 4-hour-testing of a commonly well respected institution - not the (to some extent) arbitrary verdict of one native speaker. If you pass it you normally are C2 - basta! That the native guy is too strict is quite obvious regarding the speaking level of the non-native guy in the video. At least what we see is clearly C2 because the guy would rock any speaking test for C2 easily like that. Very nice discussion anyway. It stimulated me!
I'm thinking about taking the CPE in the near future, how do you know you're prepared enough for passing the exam? Btw , what score did you get? I've heard that the CPE is such a tough but a doable exam for very advanced candidates.
@@TheAnarchist99 I passed it without preparation and even without much exposure to English. I just watched some Netflix series right before the exam to switch my brain to English. I didn’t get an A grade, but I passed. It’s not that difficult.
@@annas6547 You need a very solid foundation though. Because the fail rate is very high. My cousin prepared for it a lot and she studied for months non-stop but she was far from the minimum score required to pass. She got something like 180-190 overall as a score if I'm not wrong.
@@TheAnarchist99 well I don’t know. I live in a country where there are not that many English speaking people, in fact there are no English speaking people. I didn’t speak English for ages. I never wrote papers before apart from some school papers. All my English comes from High School which was years ago (I’m a very grown woman) and living abroad for a year also years ago. I don’t know much of the grammar, I mix tenses, etc. All I want to say, don’t be scared, just try. I always thought I was B2 and I could not even speak as I didn’t have practice.
Native isn't necessary a C2
I passed the Cambridge C2 with grade A the other day at 21, and I am gonna FLEX AND SAY I HAVE C2. Oh and I have never left Italy! lol No working abroad nothing!
Amazing... Congratulations..
Outstanding and remarkable score. How did you achieve such score? Sounds like many years of high quality exposure. I'm still struggling to get past the C1 barrier which will take a couple more years realistically.
@@TheAnarchist99 English is everywhere but I do listen to a lot of British and American media, I read novels, I have some online friends I talk to in English all of that! Thank you by the way, I’m sure you’ll reach C2 before you know it, the reality is, if you passed C1 there is not that much of a difference!
@@MariaLaura-ly4tb Oh thanks, uplifting comments always help :) , I'm pretty sure that I'll eventually reach the C2 level but all things considered it will take some time anyways since it wasn't until this very year that I reached the C1 level coming from a 3 year plateau in the language, due to lack of motivation and some other things I barely made progress for 3 years but I changed things up. I don't watch British and American media every single day but still quite often (listen to podcasts at the very least 5 times a week and consume media around 3-4 times a week), and I generally don't struggle that much with getting the gist of what they're saying (I use no subtitles anymore btw) but I still sometimes have to rewind to understand better, but I don't struggle nearly as much as I did over a year ago when I first started watching tv series with no subtitles whatsoever (I could barely understand a thing). As for reading, I'm still adapting as I'm very new to it 😅, honestly I'm a painfully slow reader because I'd never been into books until this year really ,but I'm seeing progress and i know in the end it all will have been worthwhile. I'm actually quite amazed by the ability of our brain to adapt to languages , even after adolescence without necessarily being intelectually gifted. Last year I couldn't follow tv series without subtitles , it was really pain in the ass to get comfortable but after over a year I can understand many accents and follow along just fine (a huge milestone for me) , hopefully I'll get the C2 in the future but for now , I'm setting myself realistic expectations but at the same time trying to slowly but surely push boundaries, I don't wanna feel too overwhelmed but rather enjoy the language. I have never left my country either and I started learning English from scratch just before turning 17 (I'm 22 and my native language is Spanish btw), so it's possible indeed to reach C1 and C2 level without leaving the country and contrary to popular belief. Have a nice day.
I think its fairly obvious. There is a step above C2 which is a native level of proficiency. C2 only exists in a framework on paper. Of course it doesn't equal an educated native speaker who can flex their language with unmatched automaticity and intuitive ease! I also find Olly's position to be flawed, not all native english speakers are at C2 either!
I got ur point but I think it’s perfectly fine to claim that one have a C2 when one is certified as such. No one’s gonna expect that s/he scored 100% mark to pass the exam anyway
*one has
Super confusing.. I do believe that if you put the time and effort you can get a C2 level as a foreign student. Having said that, sounding like a native speaker is a different story and I don’t think you will ever get there no matter how much you try.
this video is worser in representation but also better in speaking fluency than i thought
How did Lucas get such a British accent?
Would being intellectually impaired stop someone from obtaining C2?
Olly, I’m curious to know how you would evaluate for example Vlad Skultety. His English is very natural, his accent is amazing. I think he can trick many people into thinking that he is a native speaker (based in New Jersey probably, where he spent a lot of time as a child). Yet, I’ve heard him make quite a few grammar mistakes, most of them being interferences from Slovak (or possibly some other of his languages). Some of these mistakes even distorted the meaning and those were not the type of mistakes also a native speaker would make. Are there any other non-native English online polyglots who you think have a C2? I’d say Luca Lampariello and Gabriel Gelman.
Michal Grebeň I would never try and tell someone what level I thought they had unless they asked me personally!
I see. It may come out rude. I was just trying to make a point. I know many people who mastered English to a very high degree of fluency and are very close to native speakers. Yet, no one's English is flawless, which in my opinion doesn't mean they don't have a C2.
What particular mistakes did he make?
I’ve heard him make quite a few interferential errors like “news are” but this is a minor mistake. What is worse is the fact that he sometimes gets his indirect speech wrong, which often distorts the meaning. For example when talking about past events, he sometimes tends to confuse past perfect with present perfect. But don’t get me wrong. This is not supposed to be a put-down. I love Vlad. His English is otherwise amazing, way better than mine. This is just one aspect of English grammar that he needs to handle.
"Function in academic envirement function in business meetings" Then more than 80% of the Brazilian people arent in the c2 level even in portuguese I used Brazil as a exemple cause i know the reality but i suposse that If It is a parameter all people from south hemisphere stuggle to reach a c2 level in There own Native languange
I’m Brazilian too and honestly is very very easy to find people, native from here who simply aren’t at the C1 level. If you search you could even find levels below C1...
I'm a native spanish speaker from Madrid. I was perusing C1 DELE books in a bookshop just for curiosiy and I can assure that practically nobody use the lenguage in that level. For example: 1. B2 Ayer desayuné un vaso de leche con cereales. Ok. 2. C1. Ayer desgusté un desayuno compuesto de leche y cereales. Please, no one speak like that unless you are a proper toff.
Lol. My thoughts exactly. I think most of language proficiency tests are over designed what they really need to test for.
Where is Sean from ?
C2 level is the six and the final levels in common European frame work of reference is definition of different language levels. And yes you can get to C2 level if you have in mind diffrent direction in work or business. and you are in that target language countryfor couple of tears you will be C2 no time. for me am happy for EF as standar .
I'm currently considering myself C1 in English, my mother tongue is Spanish, and I use English every day (Even if I don't live in a country where English is spoken) I'm totally agree with you, my English is not perfect (and it will never be perfect) but I really find that I can talk about many topics and I feel totally comfortable speaking English, it's impossible to get a "perfection" in any language, I have heard that you need like 15 years to speak a language "perfectly" anyway, I think a lot about this topic, language rules change, you'll never be able to say "I know all this language". but in fact we're polyglots, we want to be fluent in all that we know languages? We want to, but we can't really do it, because we always want to learn more languages, it requires a lot of time, patience and practice. and we tend to mix accents and syntax, however we'll never be perfect, I don't really know if I'll someday consider myself as C1 in English, in my mother tongue I just say "I am native" even if my vocabulary is quite good, I think that it's even hard for natives reach a "C2 level", so I just know that I can speak and understand enough to say "I speak this language"
You speak well but even here there were errors. Of course even native speakers will make mistakes. Just so you have an idea though. X
@@es4666 I left this comment three years ago so of course my English has improved a lot, I can also tell that I made many mistakes and my writing sounds very awkward in my first comment (I think that was my point though, that speaking without mistakes is hard even for native speakers) I'm still far from perfect though, there's always room for improvement.
Ik begrijp mijn moedertaal maar kan het niet spreken kan je me helpen
Using the "native like" descriptor to evaluate the proficiency level of an individual, in a particular language, couldn't be more equivocal. Most native Spanish speakers in my country (a Spanish speaking one) are far from making use of the language faultlessly and flawlessly as one may believe. The majority of native language users regularly don't do very well at writing, for example. They lack morphology, syntax and semantics knowledge. Nor seldom may one find numerous mistakes in their texts, which make proof of a mere practical language command, acquired through the daily use of the only language most of them know. On the other hand, the way of conducting oneself in a particular situation, may reflect the language proficiency of a user, and such thing is not the same among all "native speakers". Many of such individuals make use of very basic vocabulary and hardly would they be able to refine their speech. From my point of view, one could only say a native speaker, specialized in his/her own language, professionally, would have a C2 level. (Not even professionals from other areas have enough knowledge of language nuances and particularities).
I discuss Non-duality with B2s.
Well, I don't care much about it, as long as I pass the exam, that will help me reach my goal.
*laughs in C2 certified*
If you can WORK using that language 8 hours a day speaking the language and none ask you to repeat anything you are a C2. If you ask or be asked to repeat more than once or twice a week you are not a C2