The left-handed SA80: So everyone can fire a really bad rifle. With firearm expert Jonathan Ferguson
The SA80 is famed for its disastrous introduction into British Army service, even inspiring unofficial t-shirts to be worn by soldiers stating it was, "Designed by the Incompetent; Issued by the Uncaring; Carried by the Unfortunate."
During development, the British Army gave serious consideration to manufacturing a left-handed version for up to 10% of the total weapons produced. Jonathan explains what happened to these plans and this early version of the rifle.
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Almost like the man wrote a book on these things...
If he sends you this to try you will be sorry........
I like the part where he disagrees with the _other_ guy who "wrote the book on these things!" It's always fun to see academic arguments out in the open.
To be fair we mostly agree - and as I say, he might be right not to apply the XL78E1 designation. I might yet be able to solve that one with more research but it's a bit of a needle in a haystack :) @@Chasmodius
@@jonathanferguson1211 Hi Jonathan Ferguson Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armouries museum in the UK which houses a large collection of interesting weapons and firearms
@@jonathanferguson1211 I find it entirely too amusing that you have an anime self portrait profile pic.
Squaddie: "I'm left-handed and left-eye dominant." MoD: "Not anymore, you're not!"
Conveniently, they have designed a gun that will remove that eye for you.
MOD: "Well you don't need your teeth anyway."
@@ptonpcno no non, the MOD will happily issue 1 set of dentures to fit. Your only responsibility is to remove said dentures prior to engaging the enemy.😂
All British soldiers from the year dot were/are trained to shoot right handed.
@@SvenTviking I wasnt,,,
back in 75/76 I fired one of the left handed 4.85mm XL64s while on a visit to ROF Chorley, it took about 20 minutes work by the armourer to change it to a leftie.
what's the recoil like?
Imagine what could have been.
@@justsomeplantcells- same as any .177 NATO stanag round at the time
@@ptonpc yeahhhhh not shit 5.56 ,,,,
I bet Ian is going to interested in this one
„Hey i got a rare left handed version of this famous rifle“ „Wow thats cool can yo..“ „Its the sa80“ „…“
I would say the same thing because Mr. Ian prefers to shoot guns left handed. And this particular SA80 could have been designed for him.
Not french enough...
@@vertigo4236 just call it 'le sa80' in a French accent.
@@Mr.Marbles"anyway..."
Do you know what's worse than an L85A1? Being forced to use it with your weak hand.
I found it fine
@@MrTangolizardless than ideal
@@allyw7405 to be honest if I was now given a left handed sa80 I don’t think I would be able to use it as good as a standard one I used to get a marksman pass on my apwt so I didn’t find being left handed a problem and later on we were able to use the red dot on the top to shoot from cover left handed
I found the AR platform dummy easy to get use to, even a right handed variant. Lighter weight and more versatile and doesn’t feel like it was made in the Khyber Pass. Though more smoke in the face is one minor drawback.
@@allyw7405 I’ve used the m16a2 and the m4 and to carry I liked the m4 it’s lighter and far more ergonomic than the sa80 but the sa80 wasn’t as bad as people make out
"hey we have a left handed rifle for you!" "oh awesome what rifle?" "SA80" 😐
"Oh yeah, all the controls will still be for a righty. Hope you like it"
"Man I wish someone made a battle rifle for left handed people" *monkey's paw curls*
"Could I get a L119a1 instead?" "No its for tier 2 special forces and above!"
How often do these military visitors ask "Does this one work properly?" to the question what's different?
I would hazard "not often", considering that the A2 and A3 work very well.
@@lordsummerisle87id say considering the A2 and A3, we can come to the conclusion that the answer to Kanrak's question is "twice" Signed, an ex-squaddie that had A1s in training. The A2 was night and day compared to the Civil Servant's Rifle
While it is a heap of shite no military would ever buy we fired thousands of rounds through the A1 In the Parachute regiment and the stoppage and breakage level was not as bad as made out , we still did our job with it.
@@lordsummerisle87 and only cost £millions more, meanwhile Aus soldiers have ambidextrous and reliable Steyr AUG without expensive rebuilds. The L85A1/2/3 was never about effectively equipping Brtiish troops it was about feeding taxpayers money to H&K
@phillipsmiley5930 H&K were bought by BAE Systems just before the refurbishment and sold again afterwards. This was, I am told, to ensure a British owned company got the contract. I wish I had known all this beforehand as I too could have bought shares and made a nice profit.
hi Jonathan, translucent plastic is commonly used in prototyping so the engineers can check alignment with other parts such as lugs springs etc before they go to the expense of making production dies.
Ian McCollum is around the corner with a suppressed French Nagant revolver
alas, there is no 8mm Ordnance to be found
@moosemaimer you can always get custom ammunition. Even make it.
@@_Twinkkzhead.info/sun/hd6beNiNrqSKqYk/bejne.htmlsi=Z4M1MeZWxmG_9rpH
better of with a Welrod
When I see this thing , I chuckles from the other side of the Channel... FAMAS F1 and G2 are fully convertible by soldiers from left handed to right handed... And FAMAS F1 was available in 1979 ...
Also the Styer AUG/StG-77, which is also from the same timeframe.
The French and Austrians definitely had a stronger command of the bullpup concept.
@@PhoenixOfArcadia Australians arent stupid they adopted the AUG
Shame about its dislike of brass cased ammunition and your government’s decision to close the factory that made it.
@@LimaOscar88 Brass cased ammunition is not a problem, this is a myth.
Leftie here. A bullpup designed to be fired only from one shoulder defies it's purpose IMO. Besides less accuracy - when shooting right-handed for longer periods - it can even cause headache for a leftie. When you're already wet, cold and miserable - trying to stay focused gets even harder. It might not change much for (right-handed) decision-makers at the range - in reality: Different thing. What if you're good (right) hand/arm gets injured? What if you need to do something with one particular hand? Like carrying a wounded comrade or operating a radio? Personally, I like the F2000. The reciprocating charging handle and the super-tight gasket on the mag well aren't great - but everything else is very well thought-out. It's compact, it's handy - and sealed very well against dust, water and mud. Agreed - clearing a malfunction is not so simple - but with proper milspec ammo and proper regular cleaning it should run forever basically.
I seriously doubt this would really matter in the real world, but playing airsoft lefty throws people completely. I'm cross dominant, so switching is relatively easy for me, but other players don't check the right side of cover, they just expect right handers.
That ambi bolt release is making my head hurt. Viewed from the non ejecting side it looks like what is typically called the hold open catch. I can't see the little black tab that would be the bolt release on the fire selector side but the may be obscured by the dust cover or perhaps the hold open can serve both functions
I’m left handed served in the infantry and never had a issue shooting right handed infact got a marksman pass most times on the APWT
My dad did his National Service 1948 - 1950, and there were NO left-handed weapons. When it came to shooting, the army's attitude was "Tough luck, son. From now on you're right-handed !" 😅
Well you can shoot an SMLE left handed. You quite literally cannot properly shoot an SA80 left handed. Not only do you get a face full of brass, but youd get smacked by the charging handle.
@@CharlieFoxtrot128 Indeed it's perfectly possible to shoot the SMLE left handed, but in my dad's day it really was a case of "You're in the army now so you are RIGHT handed !"
@@CharlieFoxtrot128the army train u to shoot from the left hand by just using the red dot on top of the sight
I did 17 years in the British army, "taught" to fire from the right shoulder,,,,,, never did, always a cack hander, LMG, SMG, SLR (didnt matter), GPMG ( didnt matter) Browning 9mm (didnt matter), 66 same, Charlie G fuck that, couldnt fire it,, didnt have to carry the female part
@@Kevin-mx1viOf course pretty much every part of society had the same opinion back then. Schools would enforce usage of the right hand and industrial equipment often required one to use their right hand as dominant. Outside of sports, left handed people were heavily pressured to do things right handed.
It's a real rarity....an SA80A1 with furniture which is not broken
That just means it’s not been used yet
That's not actually true. The darker green butyl butt pads were all gone from service by the early 90s as were any of the early more fragile hand guards.
"it belongs in a museum"
@@ulissedazante5748 the sa80 in my local museum has broken furniture!!
Hmmm. If they did I might have to go out and order 9999 of them!
The shooting left handed issue was certainly raised in the shooting press in the mid 1980's. The most pertinent question asked at the time was how do you patrol West Belfast without going round a right hand corner?
Former US Army officer here. Ambidextrous handling is not just good for lefties, but also for righties shooting around left side corners while minimizing exposure to bad guys. VERY handy in urban areas with lots of left side corners.
This.
2 wrongs don't make a right. But 3 lefts do.
I was in the army in 1986 and trained on the SLR. My battalion was going to NI and didn’t want to take an unfamiliar rifle, and at divisional depot (POW division), someone in my battalion was left handed and the corporal made them shoot right handed to make it easier for them to transition to the SA80.
20% probably accounted for the 10% left handed, those right handers with cross eye dominance, and spare 😉
Losing an eye wasn't automatically grounds for a discharge. More than a few rifle companies had a C7 on hand for the odd NCO missing an eye.
I had the worst of both worlds. Right-handed but left-eye dominant. Basically, I had to sight with my left eye to the SUSAT and then swap back to my right eye to shoot. I attribute this to my being unable to hit a cow's arse with a banjo.
My brother was the same. But he still managed to become not a bad shot. I was lucky I only used it a few times as it was just coming in and as a chef ACC we stuck with the SLR a lot longer
@@thebelfastvikingmartinbrow3603ACC? Probably killed more men that most in the Infantry! :) (VERY old joke.....)
I'm lucky to be almost fully ambidextrous. If i learn how to do something right handed I can do it left handed just as easily, and can with some effort switch which eye dominant I am (naturally I'm right eye dominant but can switch, which is handy as i currently have an eye infection) Interestingly with rifles I'm more accurate from my left as my right hand has better fine motor control but my left is stronger
@@thebelfastvikingmartinbrow3603SMG you mean. All gone by 91.
I'm also right handed and left eye dominant. TBH it wasn't a huge problem, but took a lot of time to 'train' my right eye to acquire a sight picture. I found it easier with SUSAT than with the iron sights. Always used left eye with pistol though.
This video was very interesting to me. I am a left-handed shooter. My shooting career started when, at a very young age, I was taught to shoot a rifle, and a bow, by my aunt. She was besotted with Paul McCartney at the time, who of course is left-handed, and so she thought it would be fun to teach me to shoot left-handed. I'm actually right-handed in everything else. I joined the Air Cadets, and graduated from air rifles to the Lee Enfield No.8 (.22), and No.4 (.303), all shot from the left shoulder. I joined the Army in 1973, and continued to shoot the SLR, and the LMG (7.62 Bren) from the left shoulder, but had to learn to shoot the Sterling SMG from the right shoulder. I was considered a good shot, and was often selected to represent the regiment at Bisley. I transferred to the RAF in 1980, and began shooting in competitions, with both service weapons, and civilian target rifles and pistols. I was encouraged to try shooting right handed with the L85, 7.62 target rifle, out to 1100 yards, and I managed exactly the same scores as I was achieving from the other shoulder, even though shooting left handed just feels more "natural" to me. When the SA80 (L85A1) was introduced, and we could no longer enter competitions with the SLR, I had to learn to shoot that rifle as if I was starting over again. Its ergonomics were terrible, it was almost impossible to "shoulder" with any consistency, which meant the groupings were constantly changing, and dialling in a zero was very difficult. I did manage it eventually, but then the Dunkeld massacre took place, and I decided to give up shooting as a pasttime, because the fun just went out of it for me.
*Dunblane*
Ah, finally! Thank you for discussing this issue and this gun. 0:43 This doesn't strike me as the most durable lever, to be frank with you. 4:29 Rear-placed paddle seems to be suboptimal when it comes to bullpups, when compared to front paddle (as long as it's safe from being inadvertently struck by the shooting hand wrist). 11:28 Thank you! This is all too often forgotten in discussions on the ability to fire from the left shoulder, as well as another reason for it to be desirable: namely, self-defence of injured soldiers.
Even as a Yank, I have always been fascinated by the SA80/L85; thanks for explaining how soldiers learned to use the rifle weak-side. I have an X95 Tavor and fire from the left shoulder if I hold my face well to the rear of the ejection port, though that's obviously not a solution with the L85. I've seen it mentioned that the reason for the adjustable stock on the Croat VHS-2 is to facilitate quick off-side shots by making it easier to keep the shooter's face behind the ejection port.
Adding to the cadet comments... When I was a cadet we had No 4's! 😁
Cadets still being stuck with no8's which are next to unusable now
@@conormcmaster1113 were they the .22 Lee Enfields? I was in cadets 8 years ago and I loved them.
The skill-at-arms instructor at the Duke of York’s Royal Military School allowed left-handed cadets to shoot the No 8 rifle from the left shoulder in the 1970’s. They always had to take the right hand position at the firing point. I can’t remember if they were allowed to do the same for the No 4.
Confused . We will be. Maybe Jonathan is the only person who truly understands the complexities of th history of the British bullpup. Thanks for taking all us nerds through it
i got to hold one of these back when it was the patent room when i was in basic back in late 90s, the armories has so much cool stuff
My brother was in Australian Army and he fired everything from his left shoulder inclding slr, bren and m60.
Handedness really doesn't matter too crazily much in many rifles. Which EYE is dominant... that's a dealbreaker.
The very last batch of Browning HP L9A1s that the MOD purchased had the new fangled 3 dot combat sights and lo and behold - extended ambidextrous safety catches. I seem to recall that they were Mk 3s. 16:34
Ah, that's interesting - I didn't realise that. In fact I don't think we have any! It's funny that it remained the L9A1 regardless of the changes made over time.
@@jonathanferguson1211 It just possible they were hand me downs from "them" or the CP Wing. 14 Int very likely had them as well. Strangely 14 Int bought Sig 229s in two tone finish in the 90s to replace them. Appendix carried in IWB holsters.
Fascinating. I've always wondered why the Army made this regressive decision. As someone who shoots regularly I find I have no problem using most weapons left handed, and in fact would be happy shooting right handed. The major problem is I am totally left eye dominant. If I was to shoot an SA80 it would have to be either un-aimed, from the chest (as demonstrated by Jonathan) or from the hip!
It can be done. I'm left eye dominant to the point my right eye 'switched off'. As I'm right handed it was easier to practice shooting with the left eye closed until I could eventually acquire a sight picture quickly with my right eye whilst still keeping the left eye open. It's just a matter of practice.
@@jacklurcher5813 That's interesting - I have a great deal of difficulty actually closing my left et without shutting my right eye. When I did archery I considered using a patch but the thought of looking like a pirate turned me against the idea. I shot an air pistol recently which I shot right handed but was able to use my left eye, the pistol was rested so it seemed to work ok. I'm happy firing a gun left handed I'm fairly ambidextrous with most things - its just the god awful SA80 or many bullpups that would be a problem and I don't think I'll be getting close to one too soon. Thanks for your reply, that was interesting to hear of your experience.
Ian wants one
My father served in the army in the late forties/early fifties and used an SMLE left handed.
One relevant historical example of left-handers in the Georgian-era British army (I'm a leftie, we've always been here!). I own a sword - a 1786-pattern infantry officer's spadroon - built for a lefty. Obviously this is an example of a rich and powerful person, who could not only purchase their own weapon but also wear and use it however they pleased. But it does indicate (as do two left-handed smallswords which I also own) that lefties did exist, and were well aware of the advantages of weapons built correctly for the user. Thanks as always for another great video!
I love how he mentions cadets, because whenever there is any kind of video about an SA80 on KZhead there is about a hundred comments from people who were/ are in the cadets and have to tell you 😂
Top military operators ( mum supplied packed lunch)
Some of the claims about group sizes are funny. The cadet marksman qualification is shot at 300 using the "Cadet 300 yd Tin Hat" target. Its centre ring is 9" in diameter. That's the size of target you need to reliably hit with irons to be awarded your marksman badge with crown. That means you are shooting to 3 minutes of angle with an iron sighted service rifle - which is still not easy. Not 1 MOA as some claim. There are almost no service rifles that will print 1 MOA with irons. You certainly aren't shooting 1 MOA groups with irons on a L98A1 either. For the ones that dont believe me the MOD actually publish every target type online. 16:34
There’s a couple of these (and I believe a left handed L-98A1 variant) floating about at the School of Small Arms. An episode on the history of Cadet and Youth Organisation rifles would be very, very welcome.
It's outwith the remit of this series (more one for The Armourer's Bench?) but we'll certainly be getting around to some cadet rifles at some point.
@@jonathanferguson1211thanks Jonathan. Many a happy memory on the No8s, L-81s & GPs so it’s a subject close to my heart
My dad used this weapon in the military. Tells me it was the best weapon he ever fired.
My late father did his national service with the RAF in the late 1950's and he was left handed. He actually used his le Enfield left handed which was frowned upon but he still was an exceptional good shot
Even decided to use the correct magazine for the period. Radway Green magazines. Objectively worse than the rifles.
Absolutely awful. When the Pattern Room collection was unpacked the only mags we had were RG - well, some Colt ones but there were more than enough ARs to take those.
@@jonathanferguson1211Had to tape the bottom of the RG mags in NI due to the plate falling off. Managed to get hold of some 28 round Colt mags on tour there. Much better.
@@CabbageBlokeColt mags run fine with 30. They were the first magazines issued with L85A1s.
@@CabbageBlokeColt magazines were a game changer for the A1. Rumour was the Radway-Green magazines were designed to be single use only, with fresh magazines carried through the supply chain rather than reloading empty magazines. They certainly were the cause of multiple stoppages.
@@zoidersWe only ever loaded 29 in the Colt mags.
Being a lefty, I would love to get my hands on the 303 Lee-Enfield left-handed trial rifles, only five or so were made, and they were handed out to test, but I can not find any more about them after that.
As somebody who completed his basic training on SLR, SMG, LMG, it was a shock when I was confronted with SA80 for my Det Commanders course. It looked cheap and nasty but I was knocking down 300 metre targets like never before with it. I'm left eye dominant but right handed! Still miss the SLR but it was a pain to use in our FFR Landrovers
I really wish we had a left handed L85. I'm currently serving in the reserves, in the RLC. I've basically taught myself to shoot with both eyes open, when I've been on the range. Thankfully, we've been using the SUSAT and not iron sights. The downside is, I have to readjust my eyesight after each shot. I look forward to us getting a new rifle. Like you said, I also believe the replacement will be an AR-15 style rifle. The fact is, most special forces, and a lot of conventional forces are using it. So, the AR-15 must be doing something right, over other rifle designs. I will say though, I think I will miss the L85 once it does get replaced. From my experience when I was in the ACF, and current army reserve
Having shot both platforms yes AR15 derivatives do a lot of things better than the SA80 series. I dont bash the SA80, i fully trust the thing to put rounds where i want them every time but it was never fully refined before putting into widespread production and issue. Luckily the HK/A2 programme ironed out a lot of the big problems. Susat is better than irons but outdated, unrefined and overweight. Both are good enough for most squaddies but could be better. Also, assuming that's your real name and year of birth... Persec?
@@lordsummerisle87 SA80 is an AR15 derivative.
@@ethelmini well it's more of an AR18 derivative, which is kindasortanearly an AR15 derivative. Apart from the mag, the calibre and the 7-lug bolt head there's not an awful lot they have in common.
That mag catch caught me out once upon a time running through a bunch of fearns 🤣
I personally liked the SA80, not because of its reliability or stopping power etc but because it was a great weapon for those of us who spent a lot of time in the field on exercises and in combat zones keeping the helicopter element of the RAF flying, the old SLR was a very reliable and powerful weapon that was ideal for the infantry etc but climbing up ladders with it so it was to hand if needed was a pain in the ass, the sling on the SA80 meant that you could actually sling it on your back like a rucksack and still have one hand free for tools and the other for climbing ladders etc, but I suppose from the military point of view of the actual users in combat it was awful, at least the A1 was, the SLR having a 7.62 round had plenty of stopping power and reliability so I would imagine that is the weapon that they would prefer out of the two, but they would have their own preferences outside the two, maybe the M16 or something similar, but for me the SA80 was the perfect weapon for us “blue jobs”.
When I was in RAF Cadets, I would have loved a left handed version of the cadet rifle, I tried so hard to get good firing right handed, but was already using weapons with left handed variations on private land.
Got my marksmanship badge with the SA80, 3 inch grouping at 200m with iron sights, during my time in cadets.
Neah you didn't. Marksman is shot at 300 BTW.
The marksmen ship award/badges are gained on ranges from 25m to 300m. But at 200m you need a 2inch group not a 3. But that’s what I can find now.
In my day we used the SMLE in cadets. sub moa at half a mile. ;)
@@sloppyfadge9565Neah.
@@sloppyfadge9565That's not true either.
I always wondered why more designers didn't try the top-loading/bottom-ejection idea of the FN P90. Understandably, there are some issues there around designing a magazine and the placement of sights/ optics rails. But it seems like there would be a number of advantages, especially for a bullpup.
With rifle rounds the body becomes really wide. The P90 round is 40.5 mm long total, 5.56 is 57.4 mm long and not straight walled, notice the curve of standard magazines.
@@FreeOfFantasy As I said: some issues to overcome. For example, what if the rounds were at a 45- or 30-degree angle? Or helical (a la the Bizon or Calico)? Or side-mounted? in the rear? Or a magazine-contained belt that surrounds the action like those belt-fed revolvers? Lots of interesting options I haven't seen used much. All of which are more mechanically or geometrically complex, which is usually not a good thing.
I think the main reason is that ambidextrous configurations turned out to be the much easier solution. The P90's magazine is a really neat design, but it was more of a size concern than an earnest attempt at a better feed system.
Well, this was interesting timing, I just (finally) finished reading some book about British Bullpup Firearms that talks an awful lot about these things.
It does a great job holding doors open...
@@jonathanferguson1211 I've haven't tried that with copy :)
I wonder if H&K got around to fixing this iteration too, or if lefties were ignored during the "upgrade" process.
its my understandingbthat H&K had a system that was "bolt on" to make the rifle eject forwered kinda like the Dessert Tec MDR, not a perfict solution mind you but one that would allow left hand shooting to a varying digree. the gov rejected it outright. i can not conferm that for shur (info comes from a family member who is qualifyed to speek on it) but it is widely understood that the bigest obsical to the SA80 programs success was the gov it self. if H&K (in the 80/90s) couldnt fix it properly then the program needed to be scraped and go back to the drawing board. good idea, poor exicution kinda thing as the consepts of the A1/A2 and "A3" are all grate on paper. also my applogies for the spelling. it cant be helped im afraid. 😅
@the-biggest-turnipswhen did he ever say or imply they do? He said he wonders if they considered upgrading the left handed A1s to A2s. HK did The upgrade to the A2.
@the-biggest-turnips huh? Brother what are you talking about 😭 you said BAE no longer owns HK, so therefore you doubt they refurbished left hand SA80s. But the SA80 refurbish happened when BAE owned HK. Them no longer owning it doesn’t change what happened when they did own it. Your logic makes zero sense.
No - as I state in the video the decision was made in 1985 *not* to issue left-handed rifles. Thus there were no left-handed A1s for HK to turn into left-handed A2s.
@@jonathanferguson1211 Ah, must've missed it. Cheers to you for the reply
When we got the pre prod version at Chertsey for vehicle fitment exercises, replacing the FN, SLR. I pointed that out in a casual manner and that put paid to any promotion prospects. I said "What if you're left handed?"
Jonathon illustrates the *exact* issue I have with bullpups that allege to be "left handed capable" by swapping parts out (or even a handful of guns where you can flip ejection over on the fly without tools or new parts) - 50% of the time, the edge of your cover is going to be on the "wrong side", regardlesa of whether you are right or left handed. Singapore and Croatia seem to have solved the problem with a minimum of parts or exposure to debris ingress, but they have their own problems - the Singaporean rifle is really only "lefty compatible" if you don't crawl up the stock (as a US vet who was taught "nose to chargung handle", I'm guilty of this), and the Croatian rifle has a length of pull more suitable to an orangutan than a smaller female or Asian troop.
I’m a leftie but I’ve always found that with shooting it’s the fact that I’m left eyed as well as left handed which is the most important factor. I can use my right for a lot like I use a computer as a right handed but I can’t shoot using my right eye.
Not just a case of left handed people needing these. I am right handed but left eye dominant so shoot a rifle left handed. Aiming with my right eye feels all wrong.
Nothing clatters and clangs like an SA80! Every other weapon featured on here, ancient or modern, hardly makes a sound, yet the good old L85 sounds like someone's kicking a tonka toy. That rattle brings nostalgic tears to my eyes😢😂
Doing our SLR>SA80 conversion and the lefty next to me remodelled his teeth on his first shot. Poor lad.
I feel like this is Jonathan just throwing shade at Ian. I am here for it.
Problem is not just being left-handed - I'm a leftie, and have always fired from the right shoulder quite happily - SLR, SA80 (most versions), etc. - what is important is, surely, the dominant eye? Training Cadets now and it's often a bugger, as some have to wear a black patch over the left eye to force right-eye/shoulder use. And of course still useless for firing round the 'wrong' corner!
I was an army cadet in the 80’s and fired the Lee Enfield & Bren from the left shoulder!! I was a decent shot but it all went out the window with the cadet version Sa-80 as we had to fire from the right ! 😢😢
Completely disregarding the fact that left-eye-dominant people exist
I was always left eye dominant and therefore a better left hand. In 1991 I had a training accident which resulted in a fractured skull and a torn retina in my right eye. After three months sick leave and an operation to remove a blood clot/repair my eye, it was found to be damaged beyond use in the army (even too bad for the REMFs). I was therefore pensioned off. All because of a right hand only weapon.
As for ambidextrous bullpups the Austrians and French managed it with the Steyr AUG and the FAMAS. I am left-handed and left eye dominant, it doesn't always follow right handers can be left eye dominant and lefty can be right eye dominant. When I was in the ROTC I had my own sight, I was firing the SA80, single only. right handed but my scope was so shifted for the lack of dominance it couldn't be used by any one else. When it came to rifle shooting, I was allowed to use my dominant and hand, with my right hand working the bolt... I didn't have to the rifle as much and I, back in the day, was able to put five hits in a group quicker than my right handed shooters. Pistol shooting I was right handed because of the controls and then had to really cant my head.
I was a left hander on the SLR had no issues transitioning to the IW or the LSW and even shot the IW in competition, but as easy as these platforms are to shoot accurately compared the the SLR it didnt 'feel' natural
I've got to agree , I learned to live and shoot with it , but never felt comfortable in the same way I did with the slr
Lefty here. During my military service I used the R4/Galil copy. Was allowed to shoot left handed but no concessions made for left handlers although the controls are fairly ambidextrous. Initially annoying is the brass ejecting past your face. When using the crappy ammo we were issued for range practice I remember hot brass hitting my head once or twice. Not serious and you learn not to flinch as just another part of shooting discipline. It probably helped that I had hunted with an auto shotgun before where you can get bonked with a (light and moving slower) shell. At least no charging handle rearranging the dentistry.
In Neil Grant's book on the SA 80 it is mentioned that the Enfield design team rejected the idea of a rifle with a folding stock as a compromise between a conventional design and a bullpup because of concerns that folding stocks were not rigid enough and would therefore reduce accuracy. Was that really the reason or were there other reasons? This seems strange as a very solid folding stock design was available in the form of the FN FAL Para folding stock. Similar folding stock designs have been used on rifles such as the FN FNC, the Galil and the Daewoo K2 and there has been no problems of accuracy with these related to the folding stock.
I'd have to check the design studies - it's not something I picked up on but Neil may be right. I don't believe he consulted the studies directly so perhaps it's in Steve Raw's book? I'll have a look in the morning.
@@jonathanferguson1211 Thanks! That info would really help to clarify the thought process behind the crucial design decisions with the SA80.
I checked Raw - that's definitely where Neil got it. Without digging out the 1971 preliminary study, it is almost certainly in there.@@hendriktonisson2915
@@jonathanferguson1211 So did You get a chance to look at the design studies?
Weird - I replied yesterday but it's vanished! I didn't check the archive material because I found Grant's reference - it's in Raw's book. So it will indeed be from the 1971 preliminary study. @@hendriktonisson2915
Hi I used to be in ITDU (Infantry Trials and Development Unit) in the early 80 and we did trials on the Left Handed SA80. Being Right handed myself most of us actually improved our scores fireing left handed. So maybe they should have retained the LH SA80. As far as I knew at the time they were all sent to the SASC museam in Warminster.
Shame they never deployed it in my unit. I was unlucky enough to be serving when they changed from SLR to SA80. It was joy getting hot brass ejected into my face and having to learn to fire right handed.
As a cadet I shot the Lee Enfield No.4 left handed, it was awkward whilst cocking the rifle, particularly when using a single point sling. When in the army (TA) we were still using the slr, thankfully. I did try using the SA80 but I really couldn't shoot right handed. The M16, we did some training with the US army, on the other hand I found I could shoot that ambidextrously.
Brings back memories of shooting for marksmanship badges in RAF cadets. I was a reasonably competent rifle shooter, albeit lefty, so when I was told I had to use the L98 right handed, that added some complication. Combine with that that the particular one issued to me required every fibre of my strength just to cycle it and upon completing the 5 round practice I found I had to aim completely off the target card because the open sights were just so well adjusted, I was rather proud to earn the badge given the circumstances. A lefty L98 would have been nice, but it still would have been shite.
The only time I handled a SA80 was at a military arms symposium sometime in the early or mid 1980s. It sported a SUSAT that contained a very pronounced wedge post in the optic. Being a southpaw, I was not impressed at all with any of the ergonomics of the rifle. I later read the British Army solution was to teach all left-handed shooters to fire right-handed. This struck me as an abysmal decision and in no way addressed the need for occasional weak-hand shooting around some corners. I'm glad Jonathan discussed this issue. I have shot the BREN left-handed. I can't use the sights, so I aim it like a shotgun. It seems to work, but I've not tried it at extended ranges.
Dentistry in this Country is good, but costly.
Was good until Brexit
I honestly can't believe that ANY ex-British Armed forces person wouldn't immediately spot that it's a left handed weapon! People from Armed Forces from other countries that don't use the SA80 and aren't familiar with the weapon may well not notice the differences, but ANYONE who's used the weapon would know instantly.
Nope. One or two people have eventually spotted it because I handed it to them and they went into "NSP" mode and realised the cocking handle wasn't there (!) but in 14 years of me doing this no-one has got it right first time.
Well the title gives the game away doesn’t it, without the title I’d say wait a minute something wrong here ‘it’s a lefty’!.
You say that but, again, visiting servicemen have never once got it first time - there's something about getting asked a question on the spot by a specialist that makes them overthink it every time.@@astragreen
I am left handed and had no problem with the slr very useful in n ireland for peeping around right handed corners less of a target than right handed firearms 😊
Having grownup in an era where being lefthanded wasn't tollerated in general, being handed an A1 wasn't much of a problem.
The number of lefties in the Australian ADF let alone in the Australian population,must be one of the reasons why the ADF adopted the Steyr AUG which is very adaptable to RH or LH
I'm right handed but loving my VHS-2.
Love the Crow badge.
That's so crazy it's gotta work!
I would love for you to put out a video on the SUSAT optic. I’m lucky enough two own two of them in the US. One with the standard mount and one the the “commercial” Muehler (?) mount.
If I remember rightly in a episode of the professionals a xl64 was displayed in a abseiling scene
I liked the SLR. We got a Austeyr after that. But I always thought that making a lefty SLR mod would be fairly basic 1. Remove ejector 2. Two Mil cuts for universal ejector left right 3. Lefty dust cover 4. Depends on $$ and will but make a lefty specific selector put it on the right. A few pins in the way maybe a plate with S R A if it was a L2 A2 conversion. That'd be down to will and dollars. But for a basic Leftie conversion it'd be pretty good by 80s standard. Sorry about charging handle but if a lefty got that much in the Army in the 90s they'd be doing well. Only ever knew 2 lefties it was difficult initially they told me but they mastered it. After all first nature to hold grip by the right drill is not ambidextrous after all 😅
Actually the SA80 Mk.2 served me well. Never had any issue's. A little on the heavy side, but the added weight helped stabilise the recoil. All round solid piece of kit. Warning when stripping it though......watch out for the bolt and spring launching at you when you depress the rear retaining pin 😂
No8 rifle was allowed to be fired from the left when I was a cadet, they were always told not to as the L98a2 (the semi automatic one with gas parts) had to be right handed and so it was good practice.
I like to think of the SA80 as the Millennium Falcon of _assault rifles,_ left handed conversions/models make them even more endearing AFAIAC
"left handed" YT-1300s were a thing in the EU. Also Falcon was good when she worked instead of just mediocre.
I resent the fact that this man gets to handle and experience all of these firearms, and for the British public.It is incredibly hard to even own a Shot. gun
9999 copies of the book might be a bit pricey
No price is too big for Knowledge. 😉
As a lefty, growing up where fairgrounds still used .22 LR rifles on their sideshows (yes! In Britain!) I joined the army in 1975 and was issued an L1A1 SLR. I was informed that I wasn’t allowed to use the rifle left handed as it wasn’t built that way. So……during ALL weapon training lessons and range days I wore a first field dressing covering my left eye to force me to shoot right handed. However. For the whole of my thirteen years service I achieved “marksman” on my APWT every year bar one!
when can we have a XL60 video? can't wait for it.
In the Cdn. Army of the 80's leftys were tolerated because on patrol with the C1A1 rifle you could protect the right flank of the patrol line. Same for the C7. Operating the ctrls of the C1A1 was definitely clumsy for a lefty. I wonder how many British soldiers were killed or wounded in action due to firing from their weak shoulder?
I literally didn't think this rifle could have gotten any worse.
My father was armed Police back in the 70s/80s. He used to shoot his Lee Enfield police sniper rifle left handed.
It's such an interesting rifle/product for the time which is really enriched by the development story and experimental rifles as well as the legacy of the EM2. I always thought it was a shame that there isn't much info out there on the development of the SUSAT. For the time, it was a good optic which I think salvaged some the initial A1 weapons problems (kinda, I supposed it was small, a leap from irons and bombproof). As for the replacement of l85, it would be interesting to conceptualise an all polymer l85 evolution with swappable or downward ejection system and non reciprocating cocking handle - If someone wants to jump into Midjourney and show us what that looks like - go for it please!
Its easy to forget now but even as late as the 70's and 80's being left handed was still very looked down upon in British society. It's not particularly surprising that the MoD's solution to this problem was just to tell all their leftie recruits to grow up and fire it right handed like a 'normal person'
Guess with the sight on the left side on BREN may be slightly annoying to see if using it on the left shoulder, but seems doable.
Out of curiosity do u have a audio book version of Johnathans book as im partially blind and perfer audiobooks ?
Bullpups have to be the best example of designing something with a massive flaw, and, instead of scrapping it and trying again, refusing to give up, and keep pushing forward with slight improvements and alterations until the flaw is at least less massive.
I liked the SA80A2
The book plug at 2:80 had me in stitches, BUT it shows the price as £96 when it comes up as £106 on the website??
I was simply told "there are no left handed people in the British army" and just like that I was right handed!
The SA-80 was the main reason I never joined up. As a left handed cadet I was good with an SLR but then came this thing. At various RAF range firing courses I qualifed as a marksman with the SLR. However being left handed and left eye dominate I couldn't use the SA80 left handed and right handed I was a flipping liability!
Great reason to avoid a miltary career
I'm right handed in most things, but left eye dominant. I hated this weapon. I however loved the SLR 7.62. I've no issues with bull pups, but they need to utilise longer barrel lengths options. This allows mult-role applications with little more than a barrel swap.
Good videom but the audio was a lil buggy today
Being a retired marine of 22 years service , I preferred the SLR much better fire power etc , and the 80 s upside down front focus point terrible , adjusting to it took an extra couple off seconds , not good when returning fire 🤪🤪