Chasing 500 Watts, Big Pelton Turbine
This testing was done to confirm the diameter and thus operating RPM, Volts, and Amps are inline with expectations to move forward with a Turgo Runner of the same size in a stainless housing.
Current bottlenecks:
-Still only a 12V DC system, the Midnite Classic doesn't like to PWM down to 12V from high input voltages.
-Input wires are now a limitation, amps are higher and the extension cord I'm using is only 16 gauge. I'm pusing 7 Amps through it which over the distance probably results in a noticable difference. I have 4 gauge aluminum wire to bury.
-Lots of windage from water in the housing, a Turgo will remedy most of this.
-Jet alignment is still tricky and not as finely adjustable as I would like.
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That's some serious head you've got there. Where's it fed from.
This should explain it well. kzhead.info/sun/ZrSSiZqqoYaYiIk/bejne.html
that's what he said :))
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@@dragon.fromindia3235 yeah I clicked on THIS video out of a BURNING NEED to read your comment on about something totally unrelated. Imagine that 🤷🏼♂️
The first time I'm watching this setup, congrats, this installation is one the cleanest I've seen so far. everything looks so good and easy.
Your design is ingenious. Using those quick connections makes it super easy to make changes on the fly, I have never seen such an easy simple set up that works so well. Hats off to you my friends great job!
Wago connectors are the best. They are keeping my whole electricity together. Congrats to your 25 % upgrade!
yes the are best, no stupid screws like chocolate block
This is so great friend, those results are awesome, Hoping for more updates
Started watching your videos 2 years ago with the Micro Hydro Water Wheel, you've come a long way mate. Never wanted a river to run through my garden so much.
KaShuto lol.... I'm moving soon because my old house is on its end and guess what's 100 meters away...
Well done! Your perseverance is paying off!
Awesome build. Great design. Great power source. Thank you for sharing.
I’m a cyclist and I guess that Watts portion of the title pulled this into my feed, since I train and race with a powermeter. Had no idea what the hell you were talking at the beginning but stayed until the end and fascinating.
Im my experience of Peltons, the wheel should definitely be vertical, with the housing as large as possible to reduce losses from interaction of the exiting water with the casing. Also, the nozzle shape and alignment is fairly critical. If you want to use the nozzles that you are currently using, i would suggest possibly mounting them side by side on an adjustable bracket, aimed at the bottom of the wheel. That way you can align them so each of the streams hit the centre of each of the pair of the buckets through the main part of the drive stroke. By fine adjusting the alignment of the streams you can tailor your rpm / power. Cool project though :-)
Your Pelton wheel is flooded! Nost of the "power" generated is churning water around in the chamber. Pelton wheels are designed to be totally free of water except for the jet impingement. The "chamber" should be "NOT". It should be totally open to the lower water reservoir. Ideally water will exit in streams in the opposite direction from the jets.
Couldn he just make a bigger and higher box? Maybe only higher to give the water more room to exit.
The problem is that he has the hoses shooting water straight at the Pelton wheel which makes the water in turn shoot up and down out of the spoon blades...his hoses should shoot at the top side of the blade so the water shoots into the wall at a lower level than the wheel instead of up and falling back on it and creating unnecessary friction. Also in a design like this where the wheel is in the horizontal the bottom side doesn't need to be spoon-like..since it's going straight into a pit. Pelton is better suited for vertical designs to get the water shot away from the wheel..that's why both sides are spoon-like. He's losing power by having the bottom blade be spoony instead of a straight blade right into the pit
@@TiredOfY I was thinking exactly the same while watching this and i don't even know anything about pelton wheels
Yea it felt slowed down by the ambiant slushing of water. Need more optimisation indeed.
I agree. As for how to optimize the turbine to prevent sloshing, consider redoing the turbine set-up so that it's vertical rather than horizontal, with the jet hitting the bottom of the turbine. The water then will immediately go down into the reservoir instead of sloshing around. EDIT: Nevermind, if you're moving to Turgo turbine then that's simpler.
The ease with which you can remove that thing is amazing!
He sure has it set up for maintenance in mind.
Well done ! Please keep us posted. Many thanks.
I would recommend opening and closing the main valves from the penstock a bit slower to not have such large pressure spikes as seen on your gauge. I would hate to see you break the pipe somewhere from either a pressure spike or it rubbing against a rock as it grows/contracts under pressure.
We need to get this guy a quality-made steel turbine of the right size.
This is so cool and makes me want to learn more.
Interesting spoon design. Very clean setup as well. Nice project
This probably isn't a problem at ~40A, but it might be worth looking into: I can't remember if you've mentioned in your past videos about the wire guage from the water wheel (I haven't actually watched all of them if I'm honest), but now that you've got less rpms on the same alternator, you're going to be more dependant on the resistivity of the cables themselves (less rpm = less voltage, more current -> more voltage drop). If you're ever going to re-wire the cables in the ground, maybe consider putting in some sense wires to run parallel to your main current carrying wires just to compare the voltage drop across them at the charge controller.
The key with those Pelton wheels is having the jet stream lined up perfectly to transfer maximum force/efficiency onto the cups. They are also designed to have the water speed almost match the wheel speed so that all the force of the water is transferred into rotational motion - the water should fall downwards from the wheel. So any kind of housing should be circular but with space around the wheel. Hope that helps. Cool design!
Actually for maximum efficiency the Velocity of the bucket should be half of velocity of jet due to Eulers terminal machinery equation
@@philmicuchie7729 I second this Phil!
So approximately toroidal in shape.
If the velocity of the wheel was the same as the velocity of the stream, then no significant force would be imparted onto the wheel. Something is wrong with your understanding of physics.
absolutely AWESOME , thank you for sharing your setup :)
Over 500W nice! that's more like it. Very impressive. If that keeps running it will give you some nice warmth.
I think it would be helpful to change the shape of the turbine box from cubic to cylindrical with as little extra spacing as possible. By doing so, the water after hitting the turbine could be channeled in a centrifugal motion instead of crashing on the wall of the box. Great video.
The box must be round! Water eddies in the corners, counteract rotation!
there is no box in round, cause it called "BOX"
Those clamps are great and good planning ahead for maintenance.
Another very good one Joe, what a progress with really nice output at the end, 0.5 kW. 👍💧
I'm not done yet, I should be able to get over 1000W Peak
I love stuff like this. When you turned the water back on for the first time I couldn’t help but notice all of the used water being ejected from the turbine was enveloping the turbine itself. It looks like the size of that box would be a serious loss in efficiency caused by excess water around it. Seems it would be a better idea to make that box as big as possible to allow the water to be ejected far from the turbine to drain down the sides, and not interfere with any moving parts.
Agree
Wouldn't it work better if that box was round ? I feel like when that water hits the edge of that box it splashes and that would be unnecessary resistence for that wheel. Just a theory
Pretty awesome build. If I ever buy some land, I will probably build something like this.
Nice progress!
I think you should make the housing round, and possibly perforated so the water can exit the turbine radially with minimal interaction on the turbine wheel itself.
I agree. The corners are causing lots of cavitation.
He should 3d print one!
2 volute scrolls of 180⁰ length will help. But I'll guess a max gain of 10 to 20W of power.
Yassss definitely an upgrade
Using a hexagon you could eject the water through the corners.
I'd like to see that water wheel coupled to a one foot diameter stator, larger circumference equals faster speeds past coils
This
Hi joe. I like your setup. in your video summary you touched on the amps being a bottle neck due to 7 amps going thru the wire, 16g can handle roughly 10 amps however distance as you know is the factor you are actually facing.. if distance is an issue your better doing HIGHER volts across the line to keep the amps low and then convert at the box. personally, thats how i would do it. i love the set up you have going.
Very cool man im going to build one someday
As much as I would of love to see you forget to turn the water off. It was a good thing you did lol
The first few words sounded exactly like Gray Still Play's Intro :D
Damn nice set up Sir.
You are freaking awesome dude!
Me: *shuts running water valve quicky* My pipe system: YEEEEET
I enjoyed this video, I wish I had a hydro resource at my home. This said, Is the generator optimized for your torque created at the shaft? Speed of rotation? Yes parasitic drag comments are part of the story but you said this is more of a proof of concept rig. Love those food grade pipe fittings. 12 KWH per day Outstanding !
looks very safe, with the wires and all.
Really interesting video, thank you! Recently found out an ancestor of mine invented these!
Nice to see it running with a good output. i think the gain you are seeing there isnt to do with the size, in fact the larger turbine would be less efficient. its because the smaller one has to few spoons and the jet skips the gap. with your high head and low flow a small amount of water is a lot of energy and the biger turbine has the correct spacing of spoons so that the jet does not miss momentarily. That is where i think that gain came from. i think you would get a bigger gain if the smaller turbine was sized to your nozzles with the correct number of spoons.
Congrats on 100k! It's nice to see you drop by once in a while. I'm excited to see how your wind turbine works out. The smaller one still wasn't the right diameter for my PMA. It was spinning so quickly that my open circuit volts were exceeding my charge controller maximum, I was seeing 209VDC and over 3200 RPM. I'm trying to design it so that if it ever runs unloaded that it won't self-destruct or fry something. Noise and vibrations were excessive as well. It's a physical impossibility to mount more spoons on the smaller one without cutting modifying the mounting ears on the spoons. This is why I went with a larger runner, Spencer is still flummoxed that I'm getting such high RPM from the big runner too! It's just difficult to grasp the pressure I'm working with. The larger diameter does help with the spoon engagement arc or whatever the technical term would be. With the larger runner I'm at 2020rpm and 128VDC open circuit and 1020RPM and 69VDC loaded which I feel are far less extreme numbers. As I recall from earlier conversations you operate yours at about 700rpm so mine is still 30% faster. I think the gain came from less friction losses due to a lower rpm and less windage due to a larger housing, and maybe better jet alignment with no blowby.
@@JoeMalovich Thanks, im actually closer to 150k now :) If it would be any help to you i can work out what your rpm would be at any head and turbine pcd. the one you are using must be around 350mm to get that rpm. my system runs at about 1000 rpm loaded, and around twice that unloaded. but that changes depending on flow losses. but around 100rpm. my turbine would do 4100rpm unloaded with your presure.
@@KrisHarbour Thanks for the offer about calculations, I'm pretty good with numbers though.
@@KrisHarbour - would there be loss caused by the water bouncing off the turbine turbine housing and back into the turbine. The water appears almost to hit the spoons at right angles. I would have thought a circular turbine housing allowing for the spent water to exit without hitting the spoons - causing back pressure.
@@Robuster82 With a pelton turbine yes. as the water is flung off the turbine. with a turgo much less so as the water is directed downward and out the bottom. It is only a very small amount though even for pelton turbines. The best shape of housing for a pelton is curved and vertical for this reason. the shape of housing used for this turbine is much more suited to a turgo.
Hi Joe - I was wondering if a close-fitting circular shroud (i..e a bent bit of sheet metal) within housing plywood for the turbine might improve the efficiency even further (you'd have to have gaps to let the jet spray in of course). There's quite a lot of empty space within the housing so those Pelton buckets will be wasting a little energy circulating it around. If you could reduce the amount of air that the buckets are moving around then you might gain a couple of extra watts. (Much the same as how the pitch of a vacuum cleaner goes up when you block the hose.. less air is moving, so less work is done so the motor and it will spin up to a higher RPM). Cheers!!
5 Gallon bucket ought to do just fine.
I'm a fan of your work and I love to know where you've got those quick release connectors. nice work sir keep it up😊
I think your videos are great and you aswell. We have a small creek close to our house which isn't that much of a height difference but takes a decent amount of water and I would love to make some energy out of it for our house. I calculated about 4kW of energy in that river so even if i could get 25% efficiency that would already mean a lot. That's why I'm very interested in your work :)
My dude........ by the look of that shop you’d be served well to invest in some shelving lol Great demo btw!
What about a used EV battery? You could probably get power your house with peaks mostly of that battery even if it's only 5kwh
Hello Joe. Cool setup. The round casing is the way to go. Like a donut, the half-toroid is a perfect diffuser for the spent water and the noise! Stainless perf metal will let water pass through and stall that water long enough to use it's film strength to absorb a lot of the sound. Please check for proper clearances at speed!
Interesting stuff. Just wondering if your square housing would be more efficient with expelling the wasted blow off water if it was more round. Like the inside of a tire.
Why dont you put the 2 batteries you have in series to work @ 24V if you think working at a higher voltage would help. It would halve the current from the charge controller to the batteries too, so less losses in the cables.
Not to mention its half the amp draw when inverting to 110-120vac. Can be expensive to change some of your hardware though
Call me crazy, but wouldn't a round "box" decrease the resistance to flow?
Say Watt?! God I love this channel!
I'm glad I stumbled upon this. ;)
Hi Joe, enjoy watching you figure it out and fine tuning your system. Thank you for these videos, its very insightful. I am looking at something similar on our property. Is there a way to get in touch with you to run something past you? Nothing at the moment setup except good water flow high up from a mountain. Thank you.
malovich@gmail.com to discuss
Pelton wheels operate most efficiently when the speed of the spoons is one half the speed of the water jet. This is fairly easy to calculate. This exercise is left for the student.
The turbine should be A Kaplan or the simpler Propellor style. Francis third best. But Pelton impulse? That is for very high head !
But you’re still not a physicist
No just an engineer at a dam. I am also not a lawyer But I know murder is no legal .
Each turbine type has an efficient operating range of pressure and flow. Look at any basic Water Power text book for an explaination.
The charger is MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking). It will adjust the voltage for maximum output power, and that will be near a wheel peripheral speed of half the water speed. It may find an optimum a bit off due to cup shape is not at optimum exactly perpendicular and also optimize a bit to increase RPM due to wire losses and if the box distorts water somehow. MPPT regulators solve a lot of problems for homebrew projects. There are even step-up/boost MPPT regulators operating from as low as 5V input. The best is to select the diameter of the pelton wheel to obtain the maximum RPM the alternator is designed for. The power loss in all wires and windings is proportional to I^2 so delivering power at as high voltage as possible is great. Also the water speed can be checked reading the open circuit (no load) voltage of the alternator. Regulator will have to handle that RPM anyway when battery is fully charged if no dump load, water diverter or nozzle valve feedback is used.. It may be the cups are inefficient if wheel is too small and each cup operate over a large angle
Love your setup, very ingenious, I think I would be inclined to have the alternator on top of the turbine though, rather than underneath.
dr1verman I’m not sure what you’re getting at. From what I could see, the alternator is on top of the turbine. You might want to watch the video again.
lol used!! telco' bats. nice work looks great. thank you .
I cringe when I keep seeing ball-valves used.... Change to a gate valve on outside of box, use second inside to stop water after the T-piece and guage. You can then allow bypass water while working on it to avoid freeze. 3-pin Anderson connector of even Banana Plugs make for fast electrical. The box while being temporary looks like plenty of waste water is falling back on to the wheel and will be making parasitic drag. Possible option in your box, put ledge side around the entire inside wall, use a full-size peice of polycarbonate to mount the turbine and alternator. Jets will need their own bolted mounts but least the spent water will be thrown well away from the wheel. Upgrade your cabling, you have gone a lot lower on volatge thus current has risen, over a long run, losses will increase.
This is amazing, I loved the turbine design, you can have spread "blades" and service the turbine once a week. Are those "blades" made out of plastic? Could be milled on aluminum maybe? I really liked your video, keep updating :D
these plastic spoons last forever.
Yes they are made out of plastic
stainless stell is good
Love those clamps.
This is just suuuuper cool maaaan
Whats producing all of that water pressure? Love this idea.
Andy Dwyer has really come on since his shoe shine days.
Gotta love tri-clamp 💗
you can see from the turbine blade inserts your man knows what he's doing. I doubt anyone will come up with a better design for blades in the near future.
your getting a lot of turbulence from the box being square, i feel a circular housing would increase your efficiency by 20%?
@Logic Hurts Idiots at least he didn't make the last your into you're, he's got half of it right
Heads Mess what abt the back splash of waisted jet energy i would think a round Design would create less drag on opposite of spoons.
@Logic Hurts Idiots those who attack a persons argument solely on grammar or syntax, in truth, have no argument. What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. haha
@Heads Mess honestly yah... I'd smooth the corners of the box too, and angle them down the drain so that splash back isnt happening. A couple 3d printed radius could do it.
im new to the channel how you get the water pressure so high !!??
A short video I watched a bit ago mentioned a broken hose clamp. You might have fixed this but here are a couple ideas I have learned from boating. Below the water line in a boat US Coast Guard rule is to double hose clamp. Mostly that is done so if one clamp breaks there is a back-up. It would be rare to have both break at the same time. Also, and more importantly, in my opinion, is that if everything is double clamped, you always have a spare clamp for that weird circumstance when you need and extra. And the extra you need will, likely, be close to the extra you have. Finally, try to find “gear” hose clamps rather that “slotted” hose clamps. The tighten better and are less prone to corrosion failure. 316 stainless also helps solve the corrosion problem you’re not in seawater do 316 SS is probably overkill and over $$&.
super sweet, man!
Hey Joe, have you considered the increased drag from the back splash on the wheel? I wonder if you could deflect the water away from the wheel some way?
I think the real solution here is to go with a turgo design which handles water far better.
@@JoeMalovich Ooooo Nice. Love to see that video series.
Yea, what makes this channel so great is watching Joe learn and evolve his system!
I just asked the same question before reading your post. nice one ;)
He went to reconnect the water supply and I yelled “did you turn off the water first?!”
You think removing every other spoon might help speed it up? It'll defo reduce the energy needed for inertia & maybe increase the waters 'pushing' power as the spoons are really close together.
Nice work and video. The velocity of water exiting nozzles remain the same. Using a larger diameter wheel should turn slower based on same water jet velocity. Very nice setup.
Water evacuation from turbine housing could be improved. Once it has impacted the turbine wheel it should not come into contact with it anymore.
I would replace your square box for a round one to improve the water flow velocity and turbulences.
Yeah he is right. Please send another vldeo to change rectangular box to circular turning chamber. You will get more energy
nice quality for your components.. those add up cost wise. Even your hose clamps are high end. :)
Very nice setup, well put together. The charger rating is rated in Amps, if your charger is 40 Amps per example it will be 40 Amps at 12 VDC (right about 480-500Watts output) or 40 Amps at 24 VDC etc etc (chargers can be 12/24 or 24/48) which is then twice the amount of power, this will only be a problem to you if you were curtailing production due to reaching already the Max charger Current (as for the 48 to 24 VDC question), if your current is already close to the current limit of the charger yes that is a limiting factor definitely. If you can measure flow velocity in your pipe and manifold pressure you can for sure estimate maximum Hydraulic power before the turbine, and see what is the efficiency you are getting at the moment, for that you need a large flange mechanical flow meter to avoid much flow restriction to the turbine. That can guide you into next steps to achieve your desired power production. if the efficiency is high then you are looking at high losses or water flow from your reservoir, it is is low you may benefit from an additional injector(s) and look if you may have too many buckets (too small as well) on your wheel which can be the culprit of all the splashing inside the box.
First time seeing this video. This is pretty cool, though intrigued, I'm confused as to where the water is coming from and what you are using the power for.
Water comes from a little creek uphill, and is used for good.
@@aus71383 pressure is created by gravity?? Sorry for my ignorance...
@@mathieuriendeau8398 yes.
@@mathieuriendeau8398 pressure is a function of height and density of the water. Gravity is basically squeezing the mass of water.
@@hughbrown1531 Gravity is just a theory. Because of density of the water the pressure is made.
That stream must be 100m above this setup to get that kinda pressure
Vous êtes fort dans le domaine Monsieur ! Je me suis abonné à votre chaîne
GOOD JOB !!! BRAVO !!! Regards - Paul P.
Hey Joe! Can you give the name of these hydraulic connectors? A very nice system that facilitates quick and easy connection ...
I think they are called sanitary fittings
or tri-clamp fittings
@@JoeMalovich Thank You!
Anyone else when this guy starts breathing hard, you feel like you have worked hard without doing a thing?
The gopro has Automatic Gain Compensation so when I'm quiet it turns up the microphone. I don't actually breathe that hard. I am overweight however.
I remember seeing those liquid sugar cans.
I just watched this and wondered if you ever consider a solar collector apparatus around the water feed threw the yard to help eliminate possible freeze.i know flowing water doesn't generally freeze. just curious..
Moooorrrrreeee torque nice work
you have too much water staying up inside the box after hitting the wheel.
Agreed, should be circular shape not a box, doing so would assist in making the water go down, like a funnel/corkscrew. Putting Corkscrew type fins in the bottom of the shoot would force the water out faster as well.. I bet it would spin much faster. Kinda like a Turbo.
I really have no idea what I'm talking about but it looks like there is a lot of water turbulence inside the box, wouldn't it be a bit more efficient if the inside of the turbine box had rounded corners or was a straight up circular shape?
Water reaching the sides of the box has already produced work by hitting the turbine first, so aside from splash from wall to wheel, the shape of the box should not be a big issue.
@@DanielCallejasSevilla What if, the box was the same shape as the stellarator coils... Id like to test that but alas, no stream on my backyard
I saw the same thing. I know in a racing motor they make the oil pan to keep splash off the crank. I think the same principal should apply here.
Likely, but probably not so easy to prototype in comparison to a simple box.
He could 3D print one after the bugs are worked out...he has a printer. Just has to consider the shape to deflect the water properly and if the plastic will handle the stress. 🤔 Bigger, round with baffles.
Sanitary fittings are the best aren't they? Gotta love it.
It might be worth putting something like a stage pin connector for your power disconnect, fewer exposed wires and even quicker disconnect
Maybe you can improve the eficiency by changing the shape of the housing to a round one instead of the square shape. You can see the turbulence and low preasure zones in the corners of the box. Nice man cave you have there!
I offer same solutions. I can easily see water hits rectangular box's walls. That reduces your energy.
What is the RPM of the new wheel?
500 watts is not big ..
Amazing Turbine
very cool this your system!
Where does the water come from?
Clouds
Looks likes it's fighting turbulence from being in a square housing...
That might be true, the best way to remedy that would be to have a shaped shroud that 'excavates' the off-spray ensuring that it does not splash back against the wheel. Then one would know. I think that one could maybe put a pair of stationary rings of blades [something generally/vaguely like this, only with collector rings to ensure that said splash has no way to fall back and land back onto the spinning peltier impeller system, and you would do best with one for the top if you can only get one direction, but if both directions could be had, put one above and below... www.amazon.com/Flex-lite-32112K-Electric-Replacement/dp/B003EOCG88 also it is possible to make something like this from heating, bending and gluing PVC pipe really cheaply, if you have the time and energy to invest in it ] to ensure the water is indeed directed away from the middle on a continuous and consistent basis.
2:20 damn that is sexy. Must build, must get going. Heck I wish there was some nice stream next to me. Also, I like coming up with bunch of ideas yet I seldom see any real effort on actually getting them done. I guess it’s just a lot more easier to dream than do.
Good job bro
Definitely need batteries matched to the system's safe operating parameters.
Hey, where doit you get the pressure of water from?
jack jack I would also like to know is that just the home water system? If I think of it it’s not a silly idea to make something like this in line for water although i would imagine that would rob the water pressure.
I'm not sure of this... IT will probably rob too much pressure and make wait too much, and you will get 500 Watts every year... Or month if you like stay in the shower. Maybe for a swimming pool and not the one you have on a garden... He must have a river near his turbine
Quite incredible