What The Heck Happened??? Motor Oil Wear Testing
2023 ж. 27 Қыр.
14 808 Рет қаралды
Dr. Peter Lee from Southwest Research Institute and Lake Speed Jr. reveal the results from the last 12 months of rigorous wear testing. Utilizing a Scanning Electron Microscope, Dr. Lee and Lake share the before and after images of cylinder bores and piston rings.
Here's the link to the previous videos in this series:
Friction & Wear - • Fact or Friction? TWO ...
Measuring Cylinder Wear - • What Effect Does Cylin...
#motoroil #enginebuilding #pistonring #honing
I had to watch again. Tribology is fun! 😅
Tribology is the best!!!
Great presentation. FYI, there is a major F1 engine supplier that worked on this about 20 years ago.
Absolutely, so did a top NASCAR team about 15 years ago.
in my previous working life I maintained a SEM, There is so much semi detailed articles in Tribology that they often counterdict their findings. Thanks Lake for simplifying the relationships between the parameters of friction, wear, and lubrication.......no wonder your dad;s go karts are so fast! Keep the science comming.
Thank you!
Thank you Lake and Dr. with all this great data. Thanks Lake a few years ago I contacted you about using high zinc Driven Hot Rod oil with high zinc in my newer cars and not just my pro street car and my newer cars upper cams still look brand new with 100,000 miles on them and run so nice. Not a bit of smog or car issues since you said it won’t have unless the engines burn oil which they do not . Fantastic oil.
I tried editing my comment on the hot rod oil where I didn’t say you mentioned it was fine to use the high zinc. Thanks for your help Lake and love every video you’ve made so far just need bit more time to watch more. Know who does a great proper job on honing here in Washington State? From Portland up to Seattle since I live in Yelm which is about the middle?
Thanks for sharing
The guys at Action Machine do a great job!
@@TotalSeal awesome thank you very much
I would like to see Nikasil bores compared to various types of iron, gray, CGI, and ductile. WPC treating the bores would be interesting to see, too.
For $3,000 per bore type, we can find out for you, LOL.
Would you be willing to hire a mechanical engineering undergrad to work on this research project? I'll work for almost free... @@TotalSeal
Wow, excellent content! Thanks for the leading edge info! I had been waiting for this pt 2 😊
Thanks!
@@TotalSeal AWESOME!!!! I can't wait for part 2. THANKS for creating & posting this informative video. Best regards from Yucatan Mexico, Ben
Very interesting..... Cant wait for part 2.
Glad you enjoyed it
More great information. Thanks for sharing the Technology. Have a great day. Take care, Ed.
Thanks, you too!
Love,love ….love this!!!!! Can’t wait! 🤞
We will keep you posted. Dr. Lee is already on it!
awesome stuff!
Glad you think so!
Great info.
Glad it was helpful!
Great information… What’s missing for me, is, what do the various finish numbers represent in the images, and how do different values physically look in comparative images?
Good question! The surfaces that failed were single grit finishes or overly plateaued surfaces. A surface that is too peaky is bad, but a surface that is too smooth is also bad. The peaky surfaces had Rpk values over 25, where the good surfaces had Rpk values between 15 and 10. The too smooth surfaces had a Rk below 30, and the too rough surfaces had Rk values above 60. The best surface had an Rpk near 10, Rk near 40 and a Rvk near 55.
Cool vid lake its crazy to think after all these years there still at least a century or less to go before fuel and engine performance hits it peak.peace
Thanks!
Too bad they will not be building IC engines 10 years from now.
@@robertslegers257doubt they will be going anywhere
After you loose the cross hatches the cylinders become polished which leads to oil control and oil usage !
Absolutely!
And it's not unusual to see cross hatching on well used engines.
@@FairladyS130 Most engines i have torn down lost there hatches between 200k and 400k ! My 94 chevy s10 2.2 with 655 k on it ! The cylinders are polished ! It uses about a qrt of oil every 1000k miles ! All original motor !
@TotalSeal That's what happened to my Pontiac when I got it up around 200K. By the time I got rid of it at 263K, I was putting a quart of oil a month into it. Not bad. 231 series 3. I hope my next car gives me service life like that.
@@karrpilot7092 my 94 chevy S10 2.2 cylinders lost the hatches around 400,000 ! I seen that when replacing the head gasget ! she now has 656, 700 miles ! Original unrebuilt. It uses bout a qrt every 1,000 miles ! Runs like a champ still !
I bet vehicle manufactures run the api due to fuel milage with the low friction because alot of small things in the pursuit of fuel milage do matter. This is very fun and interesting information. And i thought i knew alot about engine oils.
That is a spot on insight. Fuel economy is the major driver for the OEMs.
Will you post the results of the oil tests?
We won’t with the brand names because we are not endorsing any specific brands.
So regarding to the widely spoken bore scoring on M96 engines from Porsche…. What is your opinion on those lockasil coating and how to maintain them?
kzhead.info/sun/q7SllLh-nZ57iYk/bejne.htmlsi=PlRigjMM3pBgQ6JQ
As this work materializes do you see the path of discovery for engine builders to submit requests for testing/ information from SouthWest Research or information being distributed through vendor partners like Total Seal, Rottler, Digital Metrology, etc? It seems to me that we are only beginning to scratch the surface... on the subject.
Due to the cost and lead time on this testing process, it be available only for large engine builders.
Everyone uses SEM Microscopy...anyone who does anything with particles does, and has been for 30 years ☝️
Lake, I love your videos. I've learned a buttload. Can you please have a look at BG's EPR engine cleaner? I've had magical results with EPR. I've always used engine flush from multiple brands but it seems the best result is super-thinning of the oil which speeds up the oil change process (the old oil flies out the drain hole). With EPR my oil is black as pitch even though I'd been running synthetic oil the last 20k miles (5000 mile oil changes). I think EPR is the real deal, but I'd love your analysis.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Can you roller burnish a cylinder then hone it?
How long do you guys recommend to run the brake in oil in my engine for best results?
The first 1 hour of engine run time.
What about oil additive like motorkote or bestline?
Great question. There will be another video that addresses that specifically.
Or tvt
I use Motorkote and would like to see that too.
It’s chemistry, metrology and tribology 👍
The trifecta!
Data/info like this makes you wonder how that tree-fiddy you spray-paint "rebuilt" with a dingle-berry hone and some generic Hastings rings back in 1991 still runs good after 150k more miles...
LOL, that’s the difference between the “C” student and the Valedictorian…
@@TotalSeal Perhaps, but that "C" student was also out partying with friends and banging the cheerleaders while that Valedictorian was studying. In the end they both end up with a dead-end office job, a fat gut, a nagging wife and a bunch of ungrateful blue-haired kids.
@@GroovesAndLands Or the Valedictorian ended up as the CEO of the company and you can fill in the rest... LOL
Do I get it right, because it is the opposite that I thought was logical. I always thought that a full synthetic from start has less wear? Normally a new KTM motorcycle engine has break in oil that should be replaced at 1000 km. I experienced 50 more revs at idle after changing the break in oil for a 10W60 full synthetic. Is break in oil normaly a heavier grade oil?
It can be, but that is not always the case.
Is 2:38 using Driven gp1 20w/50? I use gp1 20/50 in my cart engine, it offered outstanding protection that carting oil dont offer for splash lubricated engines 😮
Good eye! The GP-1 Break-In oil was one of several oils that we tested.
So if you're reducing wear with break in oil, what are you trying to achieve during break in?
The minimum amount of wear required to support the load. Excessive break-in wear equals shorter engine life.
So it is incredible to think about and watch these things but how the heck is the everyday engine builder watching this supposed to do anything about it? What if all the local machine shops are still using the same honing equipment they did in the 70s and think it is just fine on new fangled engines? How do we find someone who knows how to do proper plateau hone jobs and stuff that are correct for your newest high tech rings? I do a ton of new hemis and I have several customers who bought crate engines from a localy very popular engine shop and they all use a quart of oil every 500 miles, seems even some of the big name shops don't know how to set up for modern, thin low tension rings, they probably do just fine on a stock 318 but can't seem to get these new engines right. I would love to take my blocks somewhere to get stuff done right but don't know where to start...
Thanks for the comment. Contact Rottler Mfg. They can tell you who has their hone and the profilometer in your area. They are working on a database that builders like yourself can use to locate machine shops with the modern equipment and know how.
So… dumb question: when is engine break in done?
Done right, it will be finished in about 1 hour of engine run time.
@@TotalSeal I sent my oil to Blackstone oil labs. My iron and aluminum did not start to level out until about 50,000 miles
I like using 820 stones on my final hones. Olympia Engine Builders
The 820's work great with the 412's as a base finish. For details on the honing process, check out this video: kzhead.info/sun/fcmhpMujbJWaZnk/bejne.html
So, did they test, diamond ring coating with light weight oil, let's say 0w20 and heavier oils like 5w30?
We did test oils of different viscosities (with the same additive package). The thicker viscosity oil made a much smaller difference in wear than the oil additive chemistry did.
What about the Diamond Finish, what were the results on those, did you test them?
@@CJ5EVOLUTION The Diamond Finish process is on the side flanks for better sealing against the ring groove. These tests are just ring face to the cylinder wall, so it would not change anything.
@@TotalSeal so they take an AP ring and coat the axial sides only?
@@CJ5EVOLUTION There is more to it than that, but the face coatings are both PVD applied. The AP rings are CrN and Diamond Finish rings are either WC/C (which we did test) or TiN.
Its Physics
That's right
Sooooooooooo....no conclusions, no recommendations. Just a bunch of uncollated and essentially random data points that cannot be assimilated into a meaningful whole.
The main constant was if you don't have good deep grooves to hold oil to start with you going to have a bunch of wear
You dress nice to change oil
Sometimes