Robert Kegan: The Evolution of the Self
2019 ж. 30 Мам.
107 850 Рет қаралды
Robert Kegan is one of the world's leading developmental psychologists. He was one of the early pioneers to describe how development and personal transformation does not stop at adolescence, but can continue throughout our lives.
He talks with Rebel Wisdom's David Fuller about his life's work - and how the growth of the individual maps onto the development of societies.
Image at 0:22-0:32 by Peter W. Pruyn.
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Damn! That theory that he ended with sure could light a fire under some of us who are beyond the age of having children and want a meaningful purpose. Nothing less than solving the future of humanity may be why we are living longer.
Rebel Wisdom, you are one of the most intellectually honest channels out there. We really appreciate how you continue to find people who will add to the discussion with more meaning and depth. You are going for a dynamic cultural shift that involves honest discussion based on attempting to improve personally and collectively. Obviously Keegan is an absolute powerhouse in developmental psyche, great work.
Sorting Myself Out I have been arguments recently regarding this . I mean this as discussions not fights. I think the IDW was the catalyst. Right idea or energy at the right time. But the rebel wisdom pod cast series . Is genuine and authentic like you say. I feel tharRW is one trajectory on since the IDW. I very great full to have access and be able to partake in this movement
Exactly! We have the knowlege of the ones who came before us, cause we can go further
Then covid happened...
I think that a conversation with Jordan and Robert would be extraordinarily interesting.
Jordan Greenhall? Jordan Peterson?
@@BeyondSideshow Both would definitely be good! I am referring to Peterson.
Simply : grateful for this constructive interview with Dr RK
Bob Kegan is a legend among a pantheon of brilliant thinkers. His lucidity, clarity and compassion is simply phenomenal ( and I use that word advisedly). This is a compelling and brilliant interview. Thank you for making it and thank you Bob for just being you!
If I lived a thousand years I'd work this out for myself, but time is short so I appreciate the sharing of wisdom.
A wonderfully humble exploration of the work of a highly influential thinker. And at the 41:45 mark, yet another illustration of the what a hollow vessel Jordan Peterson is proven to be when tested by someone who actually knows what they are talking about
"We started studying development because of the extraordinary joy and wonder of engaging the miracle of being alive." Wow! The singular reason why most , if not all of us, are here. :)
KZhead kept wanting me to watch this. Glad I did. This is really matching up with my opinions on many things lately. It seems we're all gradually becoming more self aware.
I read his book 'The Evolving Self' around 1985 but I was left with a sense of dissatisfaction. Principally because I thought it was too simple. For example I have known people who are very controlling, manipulative and self interested in their interpersonal orientation to others, never allowing a sense of concern for others to get in the way of their ambitions. On an overt level they correspond to Kegan's imperial stage as described in the evolving self, however they are also able to reason at higher Kohlbergian moral stages on a more abstract level and they do experience a certain amount of guilt regarding hurting others. But they will not let feelings of guilt and responsibility to others to stand in their way. I believe the guilt is due to their having internalised this higher abstract level of justice during pubescence-adolescence even though their earlier toddler-childhood more emotionally toned identifications with parental demands were based on retaining a sense of control and power consistent with an infantile goal structure of this basis. I prefer David Ausubel's model of ego development over Kegan's as it is able to better explain the complexities of developmental outcomes like this whilst retaining the same ability to present a model that integrates cognitive, emotional-motivational and moral development in a unified way. Robert Kegan may well say that the people I'm describing are probably more into the later institutional self other balance. But I don't think so, they could be better described as high functioning sociopaths whose defences are principally oriented around control and manipulation and and who lack an intrinsic sense of self acceptance and self value, their ego orientation being based principally on the attainment of status and power. In short there are ruthless individuals who are well able to reason at advanced levels of moral reasoning but whose overall ego structure will not allow this reasoning to get in the way of the attainment of their goals-something that lies outside professor Kegan's model of ego development. Still it's a great video and it's wonderful to see the man himself speak.
It's hard to find reviews of Kegan's Evolving Self, so I'm grateful for any discussion. Will have to look into Ausubel's work. I do think that one should bear in mind that developmental models are by their nature ideal-typical and cannot account for all contingencies/anomalies of individual development. Their utility, I would argue, lies precisely in this level of abstraction (= simplification), which is necessitated in part by the fact that there is no single generic human personality, but a spectrum of types with different epistemological and normative orientations. Kegan wasn't addressing the spectrum of possible types as we know them from the various typological systems. The fact that different types plot different priorities and negotiate value-conflicts out of sequence would have complicated if not vitiated the mapping of moral development as a single dialectical process. His system makes normative claims, and these are not and cannot be equated with mapping how people actually evolve across the board. At the same time this hiatus between the descriptive and normative does not mean that those claims are arbitrary or 'subjective.' But there is a sense in which the empirical must give way for such normative visions, visions which guide our self-understanding. If a model spurs our self-reflection, this goes a long way towards confirming its validity. Even or perhaps especially as we pump up against "inconsistencies". Such a reflective process, finally, is what evolving selves, which the theory subserves, are most emblematically implicated in, rather than the disinterested/objective/impartial mirroring of statistical trends. The hiatus is a necessary one. The same goes for the relation between intellectual history and other forms of writing history. The bias of the historian of ideas comes with the territory that his interest gives an account of. It is only by virtue of that bias--the necessary semi-fiction that ideas make history-- that the territory appears as one narratable line of development. In a similar manner, Kegan's developmental psychology does not just reflect observable processes, it models how we ought to account for them. Implicit in it is a hierarchy of the values that model (exemplify) moral maturation qua estimable, socially integral attributes and practices.
Everything he's been saying has been on my mind for years, I didn't know how to start researching it because I didn't even know how to put it into words a search engine can understand. I had goosebumps throughout the entire video, thank you.
Ya same! If you enjoyed this id highly recommend spiral dynamics, a system parallel to Ken Wilbur's integral theory. kzhead.info/sun/kpmifNhpp1-NZI0/bejne.html
Check out Jennifer Garvey Berger too...
Me too! Felt like I was on psychedelics, or he was speaking from the other side! ... of enlightenment. lol. Fascinating!
RK constructs and communicates his ideas expertly and beautifully.
"convert leadership into a form of developmental facilitation" - that's a perfect distillation of what I would hope happens in the future... and his concluding remarks made my spine tingle...
This presentation by Rebel Wisdom has added greatly to my understanding of my development, for the groups I belong to, and homo sapiens. I have been considered an outsider and rebel who continues to grow. It never stops as I now support Julian Assange.
His views on hierarchies from 30th minute onward are so cogently expressed and distilled. Dr J. Peterson is the only other public figure I can recall who has such clarity of thought in his reasons for respecting hierarchies. Mr. Kegan's claim that all of us internally have our own hierarchies is spot-on. These are value judgements we make all the time without realizing it. A superb interview. Thank you Rebel Wisdom.
I think a sit down is now mandatory between John Vervaeke and Robert Kegan...how good would that be lol!
Wow, what clarity of thought and formulating ideas
Thank you for the great opportunity of listening to Robert Kegan. I'm from Brazil and I really appreciate Kegan's theory (or I might say discovery). I've been working with my coachees and students the Immunity to Change and the results are incredible.
Thanks. I loved the interview. It was by accident I stumbled upon his book The Evolving Self. It took me a lot of effort to read and grasp his ideas. Then I went on to read the second book, In Over our Head, much more easy and accessible. Life has never been the same for me. I realized that something is not right with me. The journey to transcend my socialized mind with which I lived for several decades continues...
Thanks for doing this dialogue RW - Such a warm, wise, smart, even charismatic character
This podcast was unpacked so brilliantly. Thanks very much RW
A central theme of Jordan Peterson's book maps of meaning is addressing the unfounded tension between science and religion, or the world as a forum for action vs the world as a place of things. Peterson's describes how moral value systems seem to underlie the actions of people rather than intrinsic value embedded in the realm of the objective. He lays out an extremely wide, borderline mythological structure, to explain what these moral frameworks are and how they operate. His description of what they are and how they work resonates with me but I'd love to see him explore more deeply how transitions between value structures are undertaken. Kegan mentions that Peterson might want to entertain Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development. I would love to see Kegan and Peterson discuss how Kohlberg's moral development model could be used to more precisely explain HOW transitions of moral systems can be undertaken. This could prove useful for people struggling with transitioning between developmental stages.
@Ev MIles Definitely interested in getting into kens work. Adding that to my reading list.q
@@dodidajoel It seems like Peterson is promoting the more socialized state and going back. Trusting the moral tenets of the Bible but I think to build on that he is on a mission to try to bring good reason to why we should take the Bible as instruction from a higher entity and ultimately trust in the hidden wisdom of the Bible. A reaction to a perceived threat to his religious identity? It is hard to tell, but when he seems to pander to a traditional/conservative audience, seems to speak against post-modern/post-structuralist analysis and thought it is really hard to tell how genuine he is at this point. I argue that we must reach a point in development where we are able to make our own moral frameworks. The truth is that morals most likely are not absolute, they are relative at least to time, landscape and person or group to some extent. Lets not go extreme Post-truth or anything. I am trying to imagine a scenario where humans might be in an environment unearth like, or a scenario where we actually come in contact with some sort of complex extra terrestrial entity. These are out of the realm of moral frame works of religions of the past. We also may not have experienced elders to help in making a working set of morals for individuals to guide their actions. Also legally speaking the morals belong to the individual, and we ought to strive at a minimum the second stage of adulthood but the third would kind of require the mental capacity to develop a moral framework at least in the bounds of a greater civilization's set of ethics. Without this maturity, how do we fare when things like biohacking that require a great amount of individual morals consideration when that or something like it becomes more common place. And believe me, like computers and about every technology have brought about hacking, partly for freedom, and to bring availability to the commons. If we were already there (self authoring or further), most of us for the most part, we might not even have the environments and systems that bring a need for a sort of rebellion against the powers that be or the establishment. A rage against the machine if you will. (Haven't heard that in a long time.)
Another great interview. It widened my perspective again. Especially the last part about education, how we develop, and why. I personally have felt that my own development has an instinctual, survival push behind it. This resonated.
This is one of the most interesting and useful videos on KZhead I've ever had the pleasure to hear. Thank you. X
Very insightful man indeed! Thank you for bringing light to the night Rebel Wisdom.
Just found this gem of an interview. Absolutely brilliant, particularly as it relates toward a deeper understanding of what does it mean to learn, or imho, to know, and even more so, what in turn does this mean on the grander scale of individual and social development; concepts with which, once again, it appears as though we are just beginning the process of grasping but with so much more out there for us to "know."
Never read his work, so glad to have this overview, from 'the horse's mouth', of a field I've heard referenced so often . Thank you very much, and what a lovely man, the interview you had a generative atmos., in which other qualities of connection were alive, not just intellectual analysis.
I have been trying to find some legs for my doctoral thesis and I am deeply into the constructive development theory. This whole interview gave me so many ideas to explore. Thank you to Rebel Wisdom and Dr. Kegan.
Excellent information, impeccably organized, beautifully delivered. Thanks so much!
I am so glad that you finally have interviewed Robert Kegan! I have been following his work since 1996. Now if we can have a dialog between Jordan Peterson, Jonathan Haight, and Robert Kegan. AQAL Rocks! =)
@Captain 7 I don't think so. They are all 3 psychologist. Being a Hetrodox Integralist, I can see an AQAL Lines, Levels, and Types conversation. JP brings in the 5 Factor Typology, RK brings in his Orders of Conciousness Typology, and JH brings in his Morals Typology which brings Larry Kohlberg (and Carol Gilligan) into the conversation. =)
Thank you for making a space in the internet where conversations and knowledge are being shared with the attitude of real concern and respect for our differences. I will certainly become a member to support the forging of tools that will guide us to less a divisive lexicon. Bravo for your courage and spot on emotional intelligence. All is not lost. I refuse to fall prey to eschatological nightmare scenarios of where our species is going.
Utterly brilliant interview. DF - props for letting the man wax lyrical. Fascinating.
Great interview Rebel Wisdom. I don't know how you do it. I picked up the book a few days back and I found it impenetrable and academic, dusty and full of nuanced proclivity to waffle. Davis always nails his subjects eliciting the clearest explication of their work. Unbelievable.
Thank you Robert and David. Fabulous content.
Amazing talk! So many insights! Loved it! ♥️♥️♥️
Thanks for sharing this interview
Well done. This Robert Kegan fellow is amazing
Excelente! Thank you for such great content.
Its great to get an updated interview with Bob Kegan. This theory and its implications are a potentially powerful force to support the development of wisdom which might extend our existence on this planet as a species. 'With age comes wisdom but sometimes age comes alone' this theory can help prevent the later! Thank you for providing this!
Lovely transcend exchange. Much appreciated.
So an integralist sent me here to explain his work better - I thank him for hearing and respecting my concerns.
This is great. Really glad this channel has transcended Jordan Peterson. Be interesting if you were able to interview L A Paul or Evan Thompson
i echo the Evan Thompson suggestion
Really enjoyed listening to that - thank you
THE FACT HE COMES IN AND OUT OF FOCUS IS TOTES A METAPHOR
Great talk. Truly visionary thoughts about our survival as a species.
Golden words. There is so much that we can learn and profit even if we don´t agree with it through this fifth transformational paradoxical stage of mind. I teach a summary of his theory to my college students.
Love these talks! Really meaningful. (A tip: why not use a greater depth of field? When the person move back or forth he/she becomes blurry. Bit distracting at time)
Thank you for this presentation. This was a phenomenal interview. Robert Kegan is a brilliant man. Part of being an effective leader requires using discernment. A person must reach a high level of personal development to be a truly effective leader. One must incorporate and transcend the stage of "self authoring" in order to create or influence his environment in a way that would facilitate personal development and the psychological growth of individuals, groups and organizations. A leader also knows their limitations. A leader must learn to quickly recognize where others are along this journey. Understanding others and knowing what motivates them and how to manage them is not enough to be a dynamic leader. Some of us continue to grow in wisdom and complexity. Others reach a plateau or an impassible roadblock. 'Arrested development' is a life long problem for certain individuals. Intelligence is not synonymous with emotional maturity. For instance people who suffer with a 'Cluster B Personality Disorder' are not capable of change, they are trapped at a certain stage of emotional and psychological growth. They exhibit 'Dark Triad' personality traits and are extremely rigid. They rarely change. A good example of this is the Narcissist or Sociopath. You can facilitate their development with an environment which fosters growth but that does not mean that everyone will take to it. If you do not separate the bad actors from any group they will destroy any attempts to create a culture of personal growth. The group will waste a substantial amount of time and energy on power plays, social hierarchies and dominance politics. Greed, selfishness and short term thinking will pervade the culture of any such groups. The group will eventually implode or dissolve ultimately destroying itself from within. If the leadership of any group or organization is led by Narcissistic or Sociopathic people it is doomed to fail. In the long history of humanity there have been many examples of the needles destruction caused by tyrants and their mindless followers. There is always a dynamic of tension that must be carefully balanced in any organization between fiscal growth and maintaining a culture of mutuality. It is difficult in a competitive atmosphere to fosters a culture of personal development. Creating and maintaining that balance is no small feat.
Michael Jensen a nice description of game A rotten apple syndrome!
Sociopathy is the great, unaddressed problem of our time.
I think it's important for people to understand that the 3 stages of development he mentioned are still just the beginning, it's interesting that he essentially stopped at what's known as "tier 1" in spiral dynamics. Tier 1 is concerned with "survival needs" and typically cling to ideological thinking. Tier 2 is a revolutionary transformation of understand this process of paradigm transformation and understanding systems theory throughout society. And then approaching non-dual states of being.
Nice to see the balance on this channel between developing a healthy self model but also transcending it.
delightful, thanks a bunch
Awesome! Kegan and Peterson discussion would be lovely. It would be nice for Peterson to talk to more intelligent people get his fame in check and evolve even more.:)
Great discussion!
38:22 RK: "We started studying development because of the extraordinary joy and wonder of engaging the miracle of being alive and the difference between being a human being & the chair you're sitting on. You have the potential which gives you the possibility, like the caterpillar to the butterfly, to transform". Brilliant
Noticing that we are still working on a theory of adult psychological development while rushing ever nearer to artificial general intelligence gives me pause.
@@KevinJDildonik Yours is a curious comment in several ways, but I'll start with this one: What exactly do you mean, when you say "The idea that AI will be "smarter" than us assumed there's some goal to reach. There isn't."? -You seem to understand that saying AI could be "smarter" implies something-else that's "dumber". -You seem to understand that "smarter" only makes sense relative to some kind of measure, or "goal". -You focus on the human "goal" of "feeling like we have purpose" and also imply this goal does not inhere in mere matter. -Given all this, you seem comfortable asserting that there actually is no goal for AI to reach. Aren't you forgetting about all the kinds of task-specific goals narrowly intelligent artificial systems already easily reach? Like solving equations, calculating routes, controlling temperature levels. All of the systems that are best capable of solving those tasks are _superhumanly_ capable at them. By the implicit measures of "reaching those goals", those systems are "smarter" and we are "dumber". So your comment sounds absurd. Of course the idea that AI will be smarter is based on the idea that they will have a goal to outperform us at - and we in fact see them outperforming us at goals on a regular basis.
@@KevinJDildonik You are talking like if consciousness wasn't inherent to the universe.
Jean Francois Fortier Yes, ‘the universe is indifferent’ is itself merely.a coping idea formed in an ‘ape brain’. The universe itself must be behind any such view. The common delusion is that such a view can be fundamental - whereas in fact it has bootstrapped itself and created its own limited frame of reference.
So glad to finally hear these things directly from him. Thank you! What he is noticing about the backlash principle has more explanatory power than Wilber's work has had for me. This is much closer to what I've been noticing and not seeing enuf acknowledgement about. One thing Wilber has contributed to this that has been helpful to me is that when one person/group is making statements about another person/group who is at an earlier stage of development, that second person/group interprets what was said as if it was coming from a state of development that was earlier than their own. So, 3 comments on 2 and 2 believes the comment reflects the values of 1. Esp. since these moves often tend to be swings between 2 emphases.
49:13 $128,000,000 Why are humans developing? 51:39 52:12
We have so much reality TV which has nothing to do with reality. Yet here we have Kegan who is offering us transformative ways to become more than what we are but you will never find him on mainstream media or in our educational institutions. I hope some day Kegan and perhaps RW can create a documentary that can illustrate diagrammatically his theories and at greater length.
Really interesting channel and conversation. Can the socialised mind be over developed to have a negative impact, social anxiety, too aware of power structures etc? Is this a defined stage that is better, and how are we're the heirachies of the stages decided? Ah! Spit balling as I watch, love this self authoring mind concept. The self transformational stage is critical and is like keeping our ego in check. Knowing we're not always right Thanks for the content.
I wish more people thought and acted like Robert Keegan it would lead to greater leadership that unfortunately there is not enough of in industry or in the world.
Beautiful
Incredible how science is still catching up with Carl Rogers, who we are told didn't really tell us much about development. But did they mention the term 'personal growth' once?
Rogers' paradigm has its precursors too. Object-relations theory, most obviously. I'm always amazed at how developmental psychology restates ideas found in Kant and Hegel. Anyone versed in their epistemological and normative theories has endless occasion to experience this sense. But empirical psychology catching up with philosophical idealism produces a strangely anti-climactic experience of deja vu. Like reading poetry reconfigured as prose. A trading in second-hand goods.
First good Rebel Wisdom in a while. No shade. You guys are my heroes
Raise your hand if, while watching this, you could feel the dual presence of Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson as giant elephants in the room. The intellectual space he was willing to enter and describe felt constrained by the limits of corporate, institutional culture, to which I got the clear sense that he’s beholden to.
In what sense do you feel they were ? I know of Leary as the LSD prophet and R.A.W. As the Discordianism guy. Are you referencing constructed internal realities? I’d be interested to hear your perspective.
Jonathon Harbeck I’m going to have to watch it again to get back in the mindset to reply. Will try to do that soon :)
And applications to Robert Kegan of course
Damn, this guy was excellent.
so many interesting looking videos in this channel! wish i found it sooner 😅 i actually saw the video Jordan Peterson had put up wearing A Frog hat but i had no idea it was so meaningful to him even more than it was to me and i did all the necessary research on pepe the frog and its kekhistan history 😂
Good one
What if we're living longer because of fear, makes a whole lot more sense.I'm afraid he and I are on two completely different pages.It's like I'm in la la land except for the statement about what I would call projection in seeing ourselves and our relationship with the world.
I have observed that as we evolve our motivations become more inspired. Certainly fear still drives most of the world, but there is a functioning percentage of humanity traveling in the nose of the rocket and determining it's destination. A longer time to live is in line with this necessity of purpose.
This piece contains a lot of talk of what we can become, how we develop, how we progress rather than what we are. Underpinning this, is a belief that we have a destiny. I despair however, when I observe how the word s'elf' has crept into our language. The word 'self' has put itself first; self respect, self awareness, self-esteem, self self self. This force is not neutral speaks volumes for our culture and we ignore it at our peril. Ne Timeas.
Wonderful lecture even the subtle criticism of Jordan Peterson 🤣🤣 thankyou rebel wisdom
The way I would appease those threatened by the existence of progress and hence hierarchies, which are descriptions of that progress, is by saying that, yes you may see more from a roof of a house, but its only because the roof stands on the rest of the structure below it. Every part of progress has its place and natural progression and each stage allows for the emergence and flowering of the next. We are all moving along and what is the best thing to take away is the awareness of the possibility of change and progress and not comparing where you presently are with were others may be and deriving a sense of self and self-value from it. Who you are is not where you stand, nor is it where you once stood or one day may stand.
Good chat but the audio is a bit low/unbalanced chaps.
After the socialised mind and personal critique I'd like to see social collaboration.
It does feel like I'm trying to skip the self-authoring stage of development. I am forever in doubt and do not believe I receive significant enough positive feedback loops to undertake the experiential steps required to move on. I instead search for ways to justify my doubt at a high level as a non-commital framework. Makes me incredibly open to folk but I lack the integration with the actualizing behavior of self, to go beyond acknowledging. I might be laying the groundwork for a big jump, but this does put me as just socialized currently. Interesting, but fair enough. I do have my problems.
Lol i feel you. Hows the last month been?
@@jonan2199 The doubt is caused by feeling wrong too frequently from everyday circumstances probably due to a combination of autism-like thinking and the agreeableness trait. I have a decent job and stick there but there is a pressure that could unravel me, should circumstances conspire. I feel like I'm in an incredibly slow burning trial by fire that may well last years before I know if I'm heading to destruction or revelation. Last month I pushed a bit more, but the battle continues and changes are slight. Autism has more friction actualizing because I can borrow less from others... or so I believe.
@@TimeGhost7 i am currently experimenting with ACIM, idk if youre familiar with it. It seems to work but im scared of entrenching my trauma even more because it explicitly states that the real me is exclusively good
@@jonan2199 I was not familiar with A course in miracles till you mentioned it. It is one of many paths in the right direction, but I cannot see its depth from my generalized viewpoint. How well it will interface with my particular mind in comparison to alternatives? But that is seemingly how life is. We don't know and we shouldn't expect to, and yet... I have to do something. I cannot offer you advice from the course, but to me trauma is a part of you in the sense that you cannot separate yourself from your experience, and you must acknowledge it, to see yourself. I believe the idea is when you stop letting the fear and dread overcome you, you become a truer version of yourself (presuming advice is followed to do it in the right way.) I am bad at following my own advice though. It's not easy.
When you say "positive feedback loops" do you mean praise, understanding and acceptance from your peers, friends and family?
Larry Kohlberg, Carol Gilligan, and Jonathan Haight re Moral Development! =)
*Haidt
@@nickshelbourne4426 I stand corrected! Thanx! =)
It’s very difficult for me to be mindful of metacognition in conversation with people I know even the closest ones outside my family because I never have enough time with any one person it seems to actually make a difference in their life for the better somehow society is going to have to help me help society and vice versa I feel like a particle when I should be wave and I feel like a wave when I should be a particle are you all struggling with this apparently not and I’m grateful for that or I wouldn’t be learning so much thank you
Two or more hierarchy social systems tend to cause confusion for individuals. A person will make choices and decisions that are polarized around an ethnic cultural hierarchy framework vs western political hierarchy societal structure . Although we have legistration and policies that guide organisations to incorporate authentic native cultural relations... no one has yet addressed the matter of "how does an individual navigate two or more hierarchical systems" ... and then many more questions can be generated thereafter.
Early childhood education has shaped the generation that is coming of age in 2020.
Personally as a spiritualist, i think the hierarchy social construct is BS 😊 however as Mr Kegan states, the "higher self transformative mind" does offer sovereignty. As for myself, being of two ethnicities or two worlds, and constantly switching between "states of mind" when navigating the current world is somewhat the weirdest cognitive process ever. There are lots of great literature, but it is not properly discussed in practice. The ethnic/ native (whatever it is called these days) cultural paradigms both on a physical and meta physical level would make an interesting and maybe tricky discussion topic.
But what is he referring to when he says " the biggest problem of owner survival " at the end?
38:07 "You're turning what I'm offering you into a means to some other end, which actually does violence to what the whole framework is about."
You may be interested in finding out about the Wizard of New Zealand.
Interesting that it takes the socialized mind to be ready for fast food companies to come and use them.
That continuum of adult development sounds exactly like Stephen Covey’s 3 stages of dependence, independence and interdependence. Is it just convergent evolution or are we not giving someone credit at some point?
All of that always seemed obvious to me, from the very start. Seems weird that there is a whole branch of psychology struggling to explain this to wider population... but then again, thats one of the things the ego does. One of our fundamental faults. It provides surges of pleasure and self satisfaction and surges of bad emotions when self satisfaction is threatened, regardless of how much logical, reasonable, common sense or basically logical any of that is. Because ego is not supposed to, nor is it capable of understanding reality correctly. Thats not what its evolutionary role is at all. - i think of ego as simply our sense of individuality, your very sense of "me!".
Reminds me of the book 'Prometheus Rising'.
I was measuring this discussion against that book the entire time (and more).
Another great episode of RW. My hope is that RW will continue to expand the scope of our understanding while challenging the toxic social constructs propagated by political extremes. I think that been the thinking on this channel beginning with Glitch in the Matrix. I hope RW continues to model itself on the developmental model. In a way, I see a problem with the developmental model according if it attempts to expand past certain biological realities such as the male-female biological reality that is part and parcel of the way humans (and every sort of animal) have been propagating the species from the start. Peterson might call this, "when the "progressive" Left goes too far". Male and female embody not only physical differences, but archetypal difference embedded in the which are part and parcel of the propagation of species. Looked at from David Deida's perspective, there is no attraction when there is no polarity. I think there is such a thing as "tampering" with certain laws of creation with our mental self-authoring masturbation, as it were. We've already seen a great deal of damage when we propagate drag queen and pedophile sexual models to young children who have not yet reached a certain level of physical sexual maturation. I think RW should seriously contend with how the Left can go too far if left to its own devices.
You're welcome
Imagine where we could go (beyond even 'the self-transforming mind' perhaps) if we could extend our healthy lives to around 150-200? OK, birth control would then be a factor, so not all plain sailing. I appreciate the interviewer letting the guy speak with minimal interruption.
I think the conclusion that we live longer in order to reach higher levels of development is sound, but it is not new to the human species; it is a trait that has made us into humans. There is a difference between life expectancy and longevity. Whilst life expectancy has indeed increased dramatically over the last century or so, the main dangers lay in childhood mortality, disease, and dangerous pursuits. However, once having reached puberty, longevity amongst still extant hunter gatherers is typically between 70 and 76 years. Arguably, in evolutionary terms, this trait of becoming grand parents was of great benefit to the species, as it not only helped in child care and other minor chores, but above all, it enabled learning through the art of story telling. And of course, this art grows and improves with expanded consciousness. There is good research on these insights coming out of the Gurven Lab, UC Santa Barbara On longevity: gurven.anth.ucsb.edu/sites/secure.lsit.ucsb.edu.anth.d7_gurven/files/sitefiles/papers/GurvenKaplan2007pdr.pdf On information transfer and mortality: gurven.anth.ucsb.edu/sites/secure.lsit.ucsb.edu.anth.d7_gurven/files/sitefiles/papers/schniteretal2018.pdf Gurven Lab, UCSB: gurven.anth.ucsb.edu/research
Excellent addition to this discussion. Thank you!
If you look at it holistically longer life and evolution of consciousness promote each other in a mutually beneficial relationship.
Thank the gods I don't allow psychologists dictate to me who I am or what I am.
This is my line of thought. In a way embracing the changing post-modern world and developing mature tools to navigate and be in this changing landscape, as opposed to trying to hold on to out dated traditional ways of thinking that are not conducive to the world we find our selves in and are most likely to experience much more fast paced change. I am not fond of a possible post-modern implementation to economics, an abstract market detached from natural world as if it were irrelevant and of course neo-liberal capitalism that we saw in the mid 70s up until present, so I expect that to be another area of radical change. I hope people radically resist Frauds that propose any economic nationalism, which is good for them not you who they try to appeal to.
Is it me or is the sound very very quiet - can you so anything about it ?
Hey Rebel Wisdom. If there's any money in the bank, two decent shotgun (boom pole) microphones for both the interviewer and the guest would sound much better than the LAV mics and would get rid of all that horribly distracting cloth distortion.
That's an interesting idea that we are living longer so that we can solve our own existential problems. Perhaps nature 'knows' that we need a higher level thinking to really overcome these problems and that higher level thinking can only be achieved and acted upon with a longer life span and the wisdom that comes with it. Interesting.
the evolution of the adult mind -- stages of wisdom -- this sounds like a "dharma" as taught in India, for instance. I was just reading about how Emerson followed the intellectual path, Thoreau followed the path of action and Whitman, devotion. These paths are not sequential, however, which is what Kegan is describing. Socialized mind to self-authoring mind or building ourself. So, finding out "who we are" is a synonym for building our self. Alan Watts said that society holds out a diploma, and then a college degree, and then sales goals, and then promotions, and then, TA DA, retirement!
More really impressive language that says all this God shit is real. Damn it.
Thanks a lot, this video has been instructive. I didn't know "self-authoring" was a concept. I knew the concept by Jordon and (like with the video on Ken Wilber) I get a bit confused about the origin of the concept, so I did some digging and found a paper from 1993 about it: files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED362473.pdf If anyone knows more about the origin please share so I can learn. Thanks.
I love Rebel Wisdom. And I loved this interview. And it gives me hope that the bromance with Jordan Peterson will one day morph into something else. Don’t get me wrong. JP has a great many interesting things to say. And is an arresting figure. And a fun person to listen to. But... I am wondering whether RW would be interested in exploring a more embodied wisdom as perhaps being the next path forward. And what would that look like. And how on Earth will we be able to even talk about something of that nature. Intellectualism and arguments only get you so far. Which is one of the reasons I believe we are hitting the glass ceiling we are. We know there is more. We can almost see it. But how do we get there is totally another story. Hence the explosion in interest in psychedelics. And the related difficulty - and to some extent impossibility - of integrating and grounding those experiences in to our every day lives. Especially in a fast paced and multi polar world. Even meditation may have run its course. An idea few seem interested in entertaining. The gospel by now being so well entrenched.
What if the highest level of human development is not self-actualization, self-authoring or some self-centered transcendence... what if it was self-effacement? Maybe there is a stage of development where the selfish self no longer requires humility to remind Itself that it is not so great as to question the Jordan Peterson phenomenon, not so worthy to church some amazing privilege or exalted status, but that it is sufficient to “be” and to “do” within the context of a simple fact of human existence with all of its wonder and vulnerabilities.
1) At the very end: ‘what if collectively we are living longer to solve the bigger issues that we face?’ I think Eric Weinstein’s take on the boomers would beg to differ! 2)also at the end, Kegan talks about leaving your comfort zone to develop. If so, memetic tribes, echo chambers and safe spaces would seem to, at best, pose a real threat to development and at worst be a catalyst for developmental regression.
I wonder, on what basis does Kegan make the statement regarding Piaget that, "at age 12, he had no notions of bringing science and religion together"? At age 12, I for example had many many notions about many many things.
Probably because to even have a (serious) interest in such a question you'd need to be at least „self-authoring“ which Piaget very likely was not at that time..
Enso Yes, I think you’re right. “Serious” notions are quite different than the fanciful ideas of a child.
I appreciate your point. At 12 I may have not been there yet. But by around 14 I was well on my way. And I do not think I was alone. I think many adults either often forget or just generally under appreciate the curiosity - and to some extent maverick nature - of the teenage mind. Especially the precocious ones. Who spend a great deal of their time exploring as you said “many many notions about (a great) many many things.” From the origins of the universe to the meaning of life itself. Especially when they find themselves for whatever reason feeling as an outsider to the prevailing culture of their time. So thank you for your comment.