JAPANESE KNIVES - Laser VS Work Horse
Hey folks!
As always thanks for tuning in! In todays video were going to be discussing lasers vs work horses, what the differences are, and what one you may find more practical for yourself. It is important to note the difference between a workhorse and a beater because they aren't the same thing! Just because a workhorse is more robust than a laser doesn't mean its meant for shellfish, or cracking bones, we're just saying that squash ain't gunna give you any problems, yah dig?
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Some examples of lasers and workhorses would’ve been good. Maybe some visual examples of how far you can push a laser before you need a workhorse would’ve been cool
You can do anything with a laser that a workhorse can do you just have to be more gentle. I cant think of any tasks that you would HAVE to switch to a workhorse for but I would certainly be more mindful of how straight up and down and back and fourth Im pushing the knife when taking down a butternut with a laser!
@@SharpKnifeShop that's exactly why I'm planning on that one workhorse--for squash.
@@HotVoodooWitch just buy a German for squash.
@@mikestanley4457 too late. And I didn’t want a German knife. I found excellent deba-ish Japanese knives.
Gage, I really appreciate these informative discussions and the creative editing.
Thanks, glad you liked it !
The best thing is to have both. A laser for delicate things and the work horse for harder larger ingredience. For hard vegetabels, where I need more pressure to cut the thicker spine of the knife feels much more comfortable.
Couldn't agree more!
I choose BOTH - (amongst many of my knives I am privileged to own), my 240mm Takeda Gyuto (laser), and my 240mm Miyazaki Kajiya (work horse), are two examples of orthogonal knives which I own. Both have a 240mm blade in length, however, from the base-to tip of the blade, the thickness of each is more than 1/2 the size of the other respectively, In addition, the overall weight in comparison is nearly 150g's different. With ALL of this said, I can perform any and all task(s), with either blade, though there is a level of ease, and comfort, when you use say the "laser," to finely chop Chives, and the "work horse," to butcher a Tuna-quarter.
Both have their beautiful qualities. One thing that's often overlooked about a properly thinned and maintained workhorse knife is that the extra mass behind the cutting edge can make slicing literally effortless. Especially with softer ingredients, one does not ever need to push down on a workhorse whether drawing or pushing. If the geometry right behind the edge is kept thin and the edge is sharp, such a blade will effortlessly fall through most anything other than the hardest foods.
When reading this, my Yoshikane skd comes to mind. Thick on the spine but it goes through food like a dream
I have both. I think that each serve a purpose.
Easiest explanation is a compromise between food separation and food release, where a laser stands at the extreme of food separation, and the workhorse at the extreme of food release. The typical wide bevel/convex presentation of workhorses can feel very laser-ish with many produces that are either not too hard, not too moist, or not too tall. Easy wedging test on everyday ingredient is to halve an onion with the workhorse. It will probably need more momentum, and work better in a pull cut motion, to avoid wedging. However those onion slices/dices will quite naturally jump off the blade. Typical laser will glide through the same onion, but more of the subsequent cuts will want to agglomerate on the blade. Of course technique and motion play the bigger role to some extent, but natural inclinations are still noticeable with just about any of the two extremes. The best are those that manage to minimize the negative aspect of such a compromise. I am fairly uncertain that any have much implication on strenght: a workhorse heft over a very thin behind the edge geometry, of which there are numerous examples (from Sanjo notably), can rather imply more strain to the edge. But mostly, steel and HT should be appropriate for the geometry intended by the maker, and any of both camp can be more than strong enough.
Said it before, you guys are good with the subtler qualities, and this one gets me where I live because I always disliked a knife that started wedging in carrots or onions. It made that type of prep seem like more of a chore. Currently I'm closing in on the ideal-for-me onion knife. I've got workhorses, no problem there. But somewhere out there in pettyworld is the laser of my dreams. : )
Just put some elbow grease and thin out one of your pettys. I've had good results thinning everything from standard mono 4116 all the way to laminated ZDP. Pick a knife that doesn't have a fancy finish on it, start on a very course stone and take it up to as high of a polish as you want. It doesn't take long for a petty, and with a mono knife like say any old henkels or whatever like that, or any Chinese made equivalents with the same 4116 type steels, you don't have to worry about going through the cladding cuz there is none.
@@jeffhicks8428 I got a Tsubazo a while back, just a typical knife an ordinary Japanese person would buy in a hardware store to cook with, and yeah, I've been thinning it. I've been taking it down right at the edge grind and at the beginning of the primary bevel too. It's very basic steel so I don't want to push it past what it can sustain but it's performing pretty well and most of the time it gets close to laser with carrots. Certainly there are lasers you can buy, but you can create them too.
I know it's an older video gents but, in general, where would you place your Tosaichi knives? More to the laser or WH side?
From your shop, what would you say is your favorite stainless gyuto laser and your favorite stainless gyuto work horse?
I really like this, because most people will only view a knife 2 dimensionally, while the thickness/grind plays a much bigger role in actual use and cutting feel. I like the work horse knife, it will perform as good as the laser in alot of tasks. On something sticky like a potato a workhorse is on another level, with the food release and cutting feel, if the grind is done properly, and i do make a lot of potatoes. On hard root vegetables like carrots and similar larger ingredients a laser is a game changer though For meats on the other hand, these things makes surprisingly little difference
You hit the nail on the head, this is something we forgot to mention but you are absolutely right!
Very much agree. Often the geometry doesn't matter so much if the knife is sharp. But wedging is a PITA and if a laser will spare you that life is better.
Ty for the info
Thanks for watching!
Does a vegetable cleaver, like a CCK, fall into the laser or workhorse category? It's pretty thin throughout but more robust than some other "lasers". Thanks!
I don't have a CCK but own a Shibazi F208. Tradicionaly vegetables cleavers are good workhorses. The steel is not very hard and out the box sharpness not that great but they still cut well because of overall good geometry. That being said not all vegetable cleavers are the same and factory edge will vary a lot. Shibazi came with a thick 25 degree edge on it and was a heavy workhorse style. It was decent but not my prefered style so I thin it down with 10 degree sharpening and a 15 degree microbevel. Now it cuts really well, has great cutting capacity but comparing to Japanese knives it still fall on the workhorse category. Now I would call it a light workhorse. True Japanese lazer knives are extremelly thin and sharpenned at 10 degrees maximum, you need at least 63 HRC to get and egde so thin to last. Because of this high hardness requirement we dont often see, almost all blades manufactured outside japan are either heavy workhorses or light workhorses.
I work in kitchen professionally i love my workhorse it can do anything i need it for
can you do a video on differences between similar knifes
We have done a few videos like that, if you're referring to shapes. Check out our Bunka VS Santoku and Gyuto VS Kiritsuke while we work on more!
Interesting as ever. Thank you. But when we are looking at the website, how do we know what is a workhorse and what is a laser?
Hmm, you're right! We see how that could be difficult. We're going to start tagging things as work horse or lasers and make collections on the page for them! Until then, check the specs and see the spine thickness and try to look at the choil shot, that should give you a pretty good idea in the meantime.
The choil shot and weight will give you a good idea of which is which.
@@SharpKnifeShop Once you start that categorization, though, you might want to add the vague "mid-weight" that is neither laser nor workhorse :V
How about listing your favorite lasers and workhorse knives? Cheers 👍
Anything around 2mm spine and thin behind the edge I would consider Laser. More than 4 mm spine and not too thin behind the edge that’s workhorse
I'll take whatever mini me uses.
Who makes a Japanese gyuto with Japanese steel, with the rugged durability of a European chef knife?
No one, and if anyone tells you they can, they're lying. Euro knives are thicker and made of softer steel, making them more robust as you're familiar with. While you still shouldn't its the kind of knife you can abuse without much fear of damage because its tougher/isn't that expensive to replace if it is damaged badly. On the other hand Japanese knives are made of a harder steel, and much thinner and lighter. They are made to cut more effortlessly, sharpen quicker, and hold that edge longer. You will always have to choose, and if someone is raving about their knives being the best of both worlds, you're about to get scammed. With all this said we just made a video on what it actually takes to damage a Japanese knife and we were quite surprised to see the abuse that even one of the most delicate knives in the shop can take, I think you should go check that one out!
While not a gyuto, the Zwilling Kramer10" is a solid durable and sharp knife. It's big, thick and heavy but the blade geometry is decent and it has a fairy thin tip for some tip work. I stick to about 15° sharpening as if I go more shallow than that I get a little micro chipping with aggressive rock chopping. Problem is I've heard shitty things recently about F&f for a 400$ knife.
Might not be exactly what you’re looking for, but I’ve had a Global GF-33 (210 chef-gyuto) for 15+ years. Not a fancy steel (some AUS variant) but has a flatter profile than a German and is relatively heavy (9+ oz.) and can take some abuse. I don’t know if it’s the best value if I would buy it today but I’ve beat the hell out of it and it gets plenty sharp. I use it for stuff that I wouldn’t expect of a thin Takamura or similar. I reach for it a lot actually. Which keeps surprising me - even as I acquire more “fancy” knives.
@@SharpKnifeShop yes. I've seen that vid. I cringed at the edge flexing.
Frickin lasers
Laser all day everyday!!!!
Is top knife a Makoto Kurosaki?
It is!
When is the kiritsuke going to be given away?
We tried to give it away already and the winner never responded! lol. We're planning to post an unboxing video today during which we are giving it away again along with another knife, Hopefully the winners respond this time!
@@SharpKnifeShop oh cool cool, I Will stay tuned for that then! I just didn't want to miss it hahaha, it is a beautiful knife and I'm sure whomever wins it will give it a wonderful home (but I call dibs if it goes unclaimed again!)
I don't think any Japanese knife can be considered a workhorse since they're all above 59 HRC. A real workhorse should be 56-58, German steel basically.
3:53 "anyone can do it" and then Gage start explaining eventually not any one can do it :')
What he actually was implying was "anyone, but not everyone", as thinning is a more advanced and time consuming technique.🙂
Whole lot of rambling and repeating. Not a lot of actionable information.