Why some 4wders choose narrow over wide tyres? - Practical 4wding
2024 ж. 20 Мам.
180 235 Рет қаралды
Why some 4wders choose narrow over wide tyres? - Practical 4wding
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Finally, someone who understands the benefits of narrow tires. We worked in the mountains of western Montana as loggers and road builders and always used narrow tires. We would always out perform vehicles with wide tires in snow, ice, loose dirt etc..
I started out driving first in Utah, 1964-1966, and then in Western Montana (Missoula specifically), 1966-1974. Returned to Montana several times for various periods of time up to August 2011 when I moved back to Utah. I always---always---preferred taller, narrower tires to extra-wide tires. Way back when (prior to 2012) I drove Land Rovers. These days I drive a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon. I run stock rubber on the Rubicon. Many Jeep drivers in this day and age like taller tires. They'll talk of their "35's," "37's," and even "40's." What I think these folks really like is "the look" wide, taller tires give to their rigs. Taller tires do, of course, increase one's ground clearance, but that can be taken to extremes to enable many Jeepers to drive over large boulders. I don't suspect many of those rigs hold up for very long, so those who drive in that manner spend lots of money on their vehicles and put in many hours of their own time maintaining them. I'll drive my Wrangler Rubicon over rocks, but I'm not interested in driving over huge boulders. Andy McKane, Maunaloa, Molokai, Hawaii.
You didn't mention soft sand or mud
@@janeblogs324 We don't have sand dunes in Montana and when it comes to mud and snow, the best tire is still a narrow one with tire chains..I'll drive circles around any vehicle with wide tires with two sets of tire chains on my narrow tires..We worked in the woods for decades and in all seasons and know what works the best..
100% agree. Eureka/Kalispell native here.
@@janeblogs324 Yes, he did. I'm skeptical about their superiority in sand.
I'm ex forestry, close to forty years, driving absolutely everything with wheels or tracks off road. At times in winter following logging machines with mud and ruts up to your side mirrors or in summer in dead lifeless sand. I also drove into some of the remotest parts of Australia fighting fires. NONE of our vehicles had large tires, all just had good brand tires and heavier suspension. The advantages of "standard" size tires is there is no difference between large tires to your pattern when you lower the pressure. Narrower tires get longer faster than they get fatter, larger tires bulge and expose the side walls to punctures. The biggest advantage by far..........you can go into almost any tire shop/farm shed or wreck and pick up a spare to get you home. I had a group of friends that travelled Australia, following the remotest tracks every year, slowly ticking their bucket list off, all of them into the 70's/80's now. They ALL ran 7.50/16 split rims, because you could change them, and all the farms had them.
Yep, for 20+ years 4WDing - all around Australia - through sand, snow, mud (in the high plains), I always used 7.50/16 split rims, never had a problem, never got stuck.
Thanks for your input 👍
Off road tires that are wide have sidewalls designed for it. A bulging sidewall will give when a rock hits it versus a higher pressure will cut, puncture, or tear. This is all common sense. Fleet vehicles use standard tires because it’s standard. That’s the only reason.
@@johnmadsen37 ours were ALL off road fleet vehicles...........we used standard tires because we worked out over the "decades" and hundreds of vehicles driving in pretty extreme conditions at times as far being more reliable and using large tires were completely unnecessary............. Talk to anyone who seriously travels in the bush..........they ALL use 750/16 spit rims, same as we did for exactly the same reasons, more reliable and you can fix them if you need to.
I think the only significant advantage for wider tires might be when there is no bottom to the soft terrain and you really do need them properly sized to be low ground pressure or floatation tires to prevent sinking to the axles and body right to the ground. The trend these days with the short sidewalls for better race track performance is also a curse… it’s that flex, contact patch, and ability to cut down through the snow the good ground that’s really important in the ice and snow where I live. It’s so strange that to get heated seats or steering wheel ( awesome in the rust belt where winter is longer than summer) you need and elevated trim level which puts you into the hideous tires for actually comfortable driving and better winter traction.
I went from a 265/75R16 tires on my 3/4 ton plow truck / wood hauler, to a 235/85R16 and it improved it's performance in every way, including being less expensive than the tires previously fitted.
Okay, rim width? I will need to replace my tires soon and currently have what you used to have.
@@d.e.b.b5788 whatever OEM wheel came on an '84 F250 4x4, I'm guessing they are 16×6.5 but not 100% sure, it was at least 5 years ago.....
16s? I can only go down to 17s on my 1/2ton without changing the braking assembly. I'd always thought offroading on nature tires was to lessen the chance you couldn't split the gap on rocky terrain.
@@mastpg they make 235/80r17's, i have a '00 F250 with a set of the '05+ rims, the '05+'s seem wider though, don't know what your rig looks like
These are in the pizza cutter tire category, and are very interesting. I'm a tire head and they got my attention. Running anything from 205 to 235 is a good bet against winter weathers too. I can research tires for hours. You have economical tires and you have offroading and overlanding tires. All if us truck guys want a tire that's at least 30-31inches in diameter for the rough roads. These pizza cutter tires are about perfect
Big reason our old series and 110's in the Army ran the 'standard' slim tyres. Great information cobber. Cheers for sharing.
1. No adjustments needed to your rig for bringing a 5th and 6th tire. Especially if you want to keep using the wheel hardcover that came with the car. 2. Price 3. choice of available tires and brands. 4. Using them in winter and snow 5. Less Road noise 6. Easier to handle due to lower weight when changing tires 7. Less airing up/down time
People are off-roading with the same stock tires? Most people go with a wider or taller tire.. wheel cover is unusable...
@@camposvazquez only idiots with magazine accessories and no experience go straight to a fat tyre. The manufacturer spent a lot of time and research picking the wheel and tyre size for your vehicle. Do you really think that tyres fat enough to "float" and still actually fit on your vehicle are available?
@@captainchaos3053 yes they are available...a common upgrade is 265/74/16.. this size is available off the shelf On my 3rd gen 4runner and Suzuki Samurai.. the easiest way to lift was going with pizza cutters...
@@camposvazquez 265/75/16 are not a direct replacement for a suzuki and they are not wide enough to actually create flotation. The wee thing only comes with 205/70r15s as standard so your suggested tyre doest fit the wheels or under the arches. I fact 205/80r16 would be a much better upgrade as you only need an inch lift to fit under the body no wheel spacers to maintain the steering angle and the grip levels will be much better for much less expenditure.
@@captainchaos3053 when did I say direct replacement???? I said upgrade ... Do you have reading comprehension?? Just quit .. you must be an "OVERLANDER" whatever that means... Cheers
The Rover Company Limited's "Land Rover Salesman's Manual" from the 1960's (prior to the advent of British Leyland) essentially made the same case you do in this video. The old Rover Company recommended a taller, narrow tire. They also explained, via diagram, how a tire's total contact area increases as the tire sinks into sand, mud, etc. (They called this "yielding terrain.) Rover made an excellent point. For a number of years I ran 7.50 x 16 Michelin XS tires on my Land Rovers, both 88" and 109" vehicles. Later I went over to 9.00 x 16 Michelin XS tires. The larger Michelins were harder than hell on the rear half shafts (and obviously, the front ones too, but I never broke a front half shaft). The "flotation" from the 9.00 x 16 XS tires was such that I rarely aired them down when driving in soft sand. To this day, I rarely air down my tires the way many Jeep Wrangler owners do. (So many of these folks destroy their tires off-road at the ultra-low tire pressures they're running them at.) Since 2012 I've been driving a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon. I run the stock tires on that at 32 pounds on and off road. As a matter of fact, I've never aired these tires down while driving off road. One reason is that I don't carry an on-board air compressor, and I generally drive (on the Mainland, not in Hawaii where I now live) at 70 to 80 MPH. You have a wonderful video here. You made your points very well, for which I think you! Andy McKane, 27 May 2023, Maunaloa, Molokai, Hawaii.
Thank you for your opinion and for sharing your experiences 👌
You basically explain why Rover went to ENV axles on the forward control IIA/IB and 1 Ton 109". The 900x16 tyres just snapped rear half shafts for fun on early FCs, so Rover brought in the ENV axles, initially just at the rear to prevent breaks. It worked! The ENV slightly reduces ground clearance compared to the Rover diff but is much stronger.
3:10 traction Wide tires may have a larger contact/friction patch than narrow tires but that also means less pounds per square inch on wide tires and can increase the risk of hydroplaning in wet conditions.
Also in (not to deep) snow due to the higher weight per contact patch they push through to the ground below to find traction whereas wider tires just compress the snow below, drive on top of the snow and find less traction as a result.
Spot-on comment. Reading through the comments I was hoping someone would explain what you stated. With narrow tires one has the weight of a vehicle in a smaller space, creating a higher contact PSI at the tire patch. Think about women spiked heels. The spiked heels put more PSI, in a very small 1/4" to 3/8" area creating higher contact pressure. Whereas regular shoes worn by the same woman spreads her weight over a larger area, thus less PSI contact pressure. Long time ago an airline manufacture found women's spiked heels were puncturing the cabin floors, and the women were not overweight, it was the small contact PSI created by the small heel point. The airline manufacture reinforced the cabin floor.
This is actually proven incorrect. In a vehicle of the same weight, tire psi, and tire diameter, the contact patch area is near identical(which makes sense from a physics standpoint). The major difference is in the contact patch shape. The shape is wide and short on the wide tire and long and narrow on the skinny tire. The skinny, narrow contact patch was found to be more practical in most offroading situations.
The weekend warriors, the machos, those with highly modified 'cool' looking rigs use oversized tyres. While every tyre has its own strength or weakness, I noticed that, on the contrary, the Army, the forestry, the mining industry generally use narrow tyres. I think, this simple fact is the best answer at the end of the day.
I think the main advantage of the narrow tires on long trips will be fuel economy... At least that is my reason for using it. Great video!!
Absolutely agree, if you look at hypermile vehicles they're tires are almost motorcycle tires. Even production vehicles like VW XL1, Honda Insight (v1), and early prius vehicles.
Another advantage to tall tires is it takes several degrees off the angle of attack, making it roll over bumps easier so you can travel faster.
Whilst killing economy and putting further stress on the driveline.
@@oggyoggy1299with less rolling resistance?
@@oggyoggy1299🤣🤣🤣
Great explanation! I never really understood why those Defenders used narrow tyres on Camel Trophy, but now it all makes sense.
Yeah me too👍
Land Rovers have been everywhere, everywhere...you do not see lifts and stupid tires on an LR, just proper ply, tread, drive systems and sane drivers.
@@geographyinaction7814 Never seen Lancashire/ Rufford LR's I take it? 😄
I don't know if I missed it in this vid but I remember Les Higgins explaining that the narrower tyre has less suction effect in boggy areas and are able to shed mud off much easier. He put his land through everything
Enjoyed your video. For my two cents, another plus of narrow tires is much less chance of hydroplaning when there's standing water on the highway. It is also a lot less work for the power steering mechanism. I noticed a significant improvement in gas mileage when I changed to narrow tires and a little more power left over from pushing the tires. Also, changing to synthetic engine and gear oil will give a little more economy & power due to less friction. Anything that reduces friction and improves mileage is obviously draining less energy from your engine hence, more power left over for moving your vehicle.
Thank you for mentioning the hydroplaning problem. Because I use my vehicle as an everyday driver, I learned this lesson the hard way many years ago. Wide tires + highway speeds + rain = increased risk of hydroplaning.
I had Jeep CJ with wide tires. It drove fine until it rained. On a paved road, when you reached a stretch with those long shallow gooves caused by heavy trucks that had filled with water the steering would get a mind of it's own. Kind of unnerving!
I switched to narrower tires on my 79 cruiser and I will never go back to heavier, wider tires but as soon as I stopped driving my car altogether, the fuel mileage gains I made were outstanding, I some times can get 30 liters per 100.
Been doing this for over 50 years - Skinny & Tall is where it is at!
I live in BC and my property is high angle with deeeeeep snow. Narrow tires like to dig and sometimes digging means you’re pushing too much snow to keep moving forward. I run 275/70/18 Hak 10’s w/ studs. More surface area floats better and gets the job done.
Ive kept the standard size on my defender, cheaper to buy, you know you won’t get rubbing issues, better availability in remoter areas, less weight to lug about, less unstrung weight, drivetrain wear and tear, the list goes on.
Depending on model, with a narrow tire you can run a taller tire without rubbing.
Also, there is only a difference in contact patch when aired up. If both a wide and narrow tire are aired down to 10 psi, they will have the same size contact patch. Only the narrow tire has a longer one. Just as a wide tire resists forward movement because of the mud in front of the tire. A narrow tire resists sideways movement because of the long contact patch. So, if you’re trying to straddle ruts, you’re a lot less likely to slide off into the ruts with a narrow tire.
Why would the narrow tyre end up with the same width contact patch? And why would the contact patch be longer?
@@oggyoggy1299 they won’t be the same width. But the same size in square inches. As the tire droops under low pressure, the length of the contact patch increases faster than the width. A narrower tire will droop farther than a wide one at the same pressure. This having a longer but narrower contact patch. Here’s the math. I’m going to deal with round numbers. If you have a 4,000 lb vehicle. Each tire on average has to support 1000 lbs. At 10 pounds per square inch of air pressure, a 100 square inch contact patch is required to support 1000 lbs. a 12 in ch wide tire will sag until it has a 12 inch wide and 8.3 inch long contact patch. Which equals 100 square inches. A 9 inch wide tire will sag until it has an 11.1 inch long and 9 inch wide contact patch. This also equals 100 square inches. The width will also increase. But, it doesn’t increase much more than the tread width, unless you sag enough to start getting the sidewall on the ground. At that point, the tire is pretty much flat. These are round numbers that are simplified. But, I hope this conveys the concept.
@oggyoggy1299 this may help: essentially the air pressure is the same thing as the force on the contract patch. Pressure is given by pounds per square inch (psi) so if you have 1000pounds going through a tire with 100psi it will assume a shape with a contract patch of 10sq in, with 10psi you get 100sqin and so on. This is true independent of the shape the tire has. So if a thinner tire needs a 100sqin patch it needs to be "flatter" than the wide one needs to be, that's where the difference in shape of the contract patches comes from. This was fun to think about, thanks for the brain teaser! Definitely correct me if I missed sth.
Another benefit of narrow tires is they are often much easier to fit, with right wheels you can often fit much taller narrow tires on a stock 4wd than you could wide tires
Thanks mate. Great explanation. When I worked in the NT all our vehicles were set up with narrow tyres on split rims. Pretty much go anywhere and very easy to repair. I always wondered why we could get through sandy areas easier than wider tyred vehicles.
Very well said... Except for wide tires pushing more particularly in sand, I have pulled out plenty of skinny tire'd folk out of the sand with my 39.5x15.5 super swampers because in sand flotation is flotation, wider is king in the sand, yes tall helps, but for best performance go as wide as your purpose can will allow, I will accept your thank you's down the road
I'm not even big into the 4WD stuff but this was such a good youtube video intro - relaxing bird sounds n stuff, followed by a no BS concise and calm intro. Nice change from excessive captions, jumpcut zooms and noise. Keep it up
Thank you so much for your excellent analysis and explanation!
Good info thanks. Thoroughly enjoyed your natural bush sound instead of the usual electric guitars 😅
Also less chance of punctures with a narrower tyre 👍
I was going to say exactly the same :)
Smaller footprint, so yes you may miss the road/trail hazard. However the contact patch on skinnier tires will have a higher psi and that could increase your chances of suffering a puncture.
I was a tyre fitter at Arkaroola for a couple of years, and quite regularly got in trouble for calling wide tyres wanker wheels. But when you repair 30+ of them for every 7.50 x 16 you soon learn what works better. Over 20+ years my Hilux with 7.50 x 16s and my Troopy with 235/85R16s were way better off road than anything running 10r15s and 12r15s. They handled sand brilliantly with 15psi, cut through mud and got into the firmer base, didn't cop any where near the number of stone fractures on rough gravel roads and didn't howl like a banshee on bitumen. And as I was running a tour business I got good longevity out of my tyres... 40, 50 and even 60 thousand Km per tyre.
Thanks for sharing.
Please explain that one. Lol. Really …
Great video as always mate. So many people thing a wider tyre is better over sand, BUT, its not true. You have to increase the length of the contact on the sand as opposed to the width. Cheers ! Keep it up! Rugged Life Forever!
Correct. Cheers mate! Thanks for your support!
Yep,235/85/16 on my 4x4 here in Ireland 😎👍
U have a old land or a old range dont you ?
This reminds me of old top gear. Good information, straight to the point. Great stuff
Great video! One addition: Unsprung weight also includes 2/3 of your wishbone(s). It's a rule of the thumb but usually wishbones get chunkier where they connect to the chassis. It's supposed to but 50% of the weight of the wishbone which usually equates to 2/3 of the length. It also includes the moving part of the shock which lead to the development of upsidedown front forks for motorcycles. Technically it should also include half of the spring weight but because the spring is involved in providing de forces for the suspension it usually gets ignored.
WW2 Jeep’s had narrow tires. Pictures of German reconnaissance vehicles also had narrow tires.
was about to comment this
Well explained... I'm a believer of taller narrower tyres rather than wide. As mentioned once aired down you get a longer footprint, plus the other benefits.... I'm actually running Radar Renegade AT5 size are 2058016 on my Triton and love them. Both your vehicles are looking great Marvin. Nice vid, love the drone shots.👍🚙
Cheers mate. Need to practice more on the drone to get better footage.
I think most people who make the wide tyre choice do so for the looks . I use 205/80/16’s. Toyo open country’s on my hilux pickup . I do a lot off road for work and they are brilliant . Also much cheaper than the wide ones . I think they look great too .
Ultimately a person would want to have a larger diameter narrower profile tire. because it allows a person to have higher axle clearance for very difficult terrain. and can still be beneficial for highway use. providing they have the proper tread design for pavement. and the vehicle has the proper gear ratio to work with that size tire. the only time a person would want to have a wide profile tire is for flotation? where they would want to stay on top of the terrain. and not sink down into it, which would include competition porposes. or in cases where a person needs a lot of contact patch with the terrain surface.
Excellent explanation! Great channel. We were always taught on soft sand to deflate until we could push the sidewall in with a knee. This creates a sugar bowl effect which results in tyre flotation. It worked every time. Deflation also helps in deep mud, as does the fifth wheel effect of " sawing" the steering wheel back and forth to aid sidewall traction. That helped me many times on a banana estate in South Africa where 75% of the vehicles life was spent in 4x4 Low Range on difficult clay and black cotton soils. Tyres of choice were Jeep Service or General Special All Grip 10ply crossply tyres.
Remember the tires, wheels, rotors, hubs, bearings, etc... is also rotating mass as well which has its pros & cons...
I remember the old news reels of Model T Fords on muddy rutted roads navigating without much trouble.
Very good video. If I could just point out one technicality - when you change from a narrow to wide tyre (or vice versa) you dont change the size of the contact patch, only the shape -- a wide tyre has a wider, shorter contact while a narrow tyre has a longer narrower patch. To change the contact patch size you have to change the weight of the vehicle or the air pressure in the tyres...
Would that only apply when the overall diameter is the same though? Surely a skinny 32” (e.g. 235/85R16) would have a different contact patch to a wide 33” (e.g. 305/70R16)?
@@ianparsons8894 yes, the shape would change, but not the size. The size depends only on the weight and the PSI in the tyres, not the width or diameter of the tyres.
@@deanspeed-e-poole3693 Okay, that makes sense
That's not true. The tyres construction is also a parameter to consider.
@@steely1neverwane do you mean radial vs bias ply ? yes definitely a small factor as they are more flexible and get less support from the sidewall, but when comparing like-for-like tyres, no difference in footprint for differing widths.
I've always chose narrow super swampers. That way when they dig down they will grab a root or a rock Something to grab ahold of for traction
this blew my mind, just wow. where I'm from people have been doing it wrong for as long as I can remember
Yes. Years of off road driving in Central/SW Asia as well as Africa and I always used narrow tires. In Central Asia- I had a super light little Niva with narrow and tall tires which was brilliant on the snow and sand. In SW Asia/Africa - Hilux with similar setup. Vehicles with the large tires (high unsprung weight) tend to be too heavy and often sink when you need them to float on top of whatever surface you’re navigating.
This is good. Weight is everything. I went driving with a mate on the beach and his fat tyred Prado sank about 2 inches into the sand where as my XTrail hardly made an indent at all.
So started logging in Oregon over 50 years ago, then servicing remote radio relay stations on mountain tops. Fat tires are useless in mountain terrain in mud period. Combine those with 'lockers' front and rear and you will find your way to the very bottom of every hill. Unable to sidehill or climb, just spin around on top. Fat tires dangerous for hydroplaning in slushy snow and pull from rut to rut. The current trend of large diameter wheels and short sidewall tires don't give any additional flotation when air pressure lowered. We use tall narrow radial military 10 pr. rating Michelin tires at about 37 inches. These will pack and roll over 6 foot of snow when aired down. They are tough enough to avoid punctures.
I'm running 205/10.5X16 Faulken WildPeak on a Dodge Laramie Quadcab, & I find these tires to perform excellently in all weather with great sidewall traction... This is my second set with a set of 17" on my Chevy Silverado Quadcab!!! I live in rural Missouri...
A great video! I personally run STA Super Traxions on my 1982 Toyota Pickup 4WD, they're about 32 inches tall with a section width of 8 inches, I've gotten through some seriously stupid terrain thanks to em. I even plan on getting another set to have studded (they're pre molded for studs!) for the icy frozen montana winters.
Excellent video if I had my way I would have modern model T wheels and tires ! I have spent a fortune trying different wheel and tire and rear axle ratios as well as over drive transmissions on my work trucks ! The cheapest way is with narrow tall tires 😊
I never thought of the fuel efficiency advantage I am glad I know about it now Also unsprung weight never knew what that meant but now it's so clear and obvious advantageous a lower unsprung weight
its never too late to learn, i consider myself a well educated offroader running 265+275/70 R16 in my old 4Runner, now im considering 255/75R16 for the obvious reasons you mentioned. i do know that wider tires rattle more but the unsprung weight term technical details i learned from you today
Glad you learned something out of it mate 👍
ya cause a 1/4 inch makes so much differance stupid people listening to ignorant people just gets you stuck
Try 255/85r16 if it will clear. They are basically 33” tall.
I bought my first Bronco in '76. I worked in a tire store and could have installed anything I wanted. I figured Model T Fords got all over the world on basically bicycle tires. Never had a single issue - Red Cone, Montezuma, et al. If you're not swampin' you really don't need flotation width tires and even then you can still go too wide. Too wide equals not enough pressure of the tread against the surface to create adequate 'purchase' / traction.
The snow ski example is very relevant. As rolling radius is king!
Thanks for the video. I stopped my off roading and camping a couple of years ago. I had quite big tyres on my D2 had no problems though with all the extras on it.However wish I had seen the vedio then. Cheers
I understand the argument for skinny tires but I’ve always had traction issues with skinny tire on my trucks no matter how easy I was on it. Got 12.5 wides and my traction issues went away
Very clear presentation. Thank you!
I have 225/75-15s on my Grand Cherokee and 215/70-15s on my Comanche, and I love how they work in rain and snow.
One thing I've noticed is availability of certain sizes of tires. I run 15" wheels on both of my cars and finding narrower tires seemed harder than it should be. Maybe it's pandemic related, maybe more people like wider tires or maybe it's me
15" wheels are not common anymore.
@@vorpalblades nope. Both of my cars are old
Short, succinct. Nicely done. Subscribed.
There is a reason why dirt bikes have narrow tyres...it cuts through the looser top layer of slush..and makes contact with the more compacted lower region of the slush....also increases ride height ....so no part of the underbody of the vehicle touches the slush ...which makes it easier to push tru the slush.
Oh, and don't forget about turning radius .. being able to turn the front wheels from full stop to full stop without rubbing... is nice!
Great explaination. Thank you.
balance is what matters in life
Nice job, in my old 4 wheelin days we kept narrow all terrain for most all things and swapped to wider 12.50's mudders only for heavy mud journeys. to this day I get told I need wider tires and yet I am the one pulling them .
thanks! good video, easy to understand.
I prefer tall narrow tires over the tall wide tires. I go through far more with the pizza cutters and also don’t float then fall through. The 255/85R16 gets through far more than the 33x12.5, and I don’t get dirty from shovelling myself out.
Skinny tyres are superior to fat tyres in mud or snow as the higher ground pressure helps them dig down and gives better grip. It's why MOD Land Rovers have 750x16 crossply tyres and I can confirm that they're superior; I've seen fat tyres build up a "bow wave" and get blocked while my 90 carried on through.
Wide tires get you pulled around more than narrower tires when you encounter patches of snow or water at speed. The narrow tires keep you straight.
Goodyear used to make a very aggressive pattern cross-ply called a Custom XTRA Grip. Aired down they were amazing. The problem they had was the largest available diameter for a 4x4 (rather than a truck) was ~ 31" (7.50x16). Their width was absolutely ideal for fire trail work and in mud they were sensational. Apart from all of that, they had this capacity to rip hard wet clay very effectively which was very useful climbing hills. The hardest of hard core fire trails were where they were at their best but again I wish they were available in 33" diameter. Cross-plys for offroad are fantastic but their rolling resistance on paved surfaces made brakes redundant - you just take your foot of the accelerator and you stop LOL. Without a doubt they were the best offroad tyre I have ever used but you needed 2x sets of tyres as they were wore out in 20,000kms on paved roads and they were legal on road tyres. Some other companies have the same pattern though it has been updated a bit. I wonder if the updated pattern is as good as the old one?
Firestone also had a really good off road tyre: Firestone Super All Traction 7.50 x16. They also made SATs in 8.50 x 16. Magnificent tyres off road and a very sticky compound. Not so good on road, not ideal for touring, but horses for courses.
another reason for narrow tyres is they less likely to hydroplane
When you drive through mud, narrow tyres will sink through the find grip on the solid ground below it, wide tyres sit on top of the mud and slide away.
I drive a 1971 jeep with 6.00 R 16 AT Tyres.for daily use. Narrow tyres help in easy maneuvering, better fuel efficiency and moderate off roading. I have given free advice by many to put wider tyres for cooler look but my choice is the stock ones.
Interesting vid. In winter conditions, particularily hard pack snow and ice, narrow tires benefit from higher pressure per square inch of the smaller surface area compared to wide tires, which gives better traction and bite. Its like adding downforce to the tire. Check out studded or spiked winter tires on rally racers, they are supper narrow for this reason. Also extreme rock crawlers tend to have narrower tires.
This explains why Maruti Suzuki Gypsy had narrow tyres and also used the same for Jimny
In 1999, my wife and I bought a base model '99 Wrangler. It came from the factory with 205/75R15 tires on 6-inch-wide wheels. The next day - and without consulting me - my wife traded the five 205 tires for five 235/75R15 tires. If she had purchased a tire size that gave a greater rolling diameter without being wider than the 205/75R15 tires, they would have (presumably) cost less than the 235/76R15 tires. If she had purchased tires that were as wide as the 235/75R15 tires but with a lower aspect ratio, those tires would probably have cost more and, more importantly, they would have given us less distance between the wheel rims and the ground - and thus less protection against damaging the rims if or when we ran over rocks at speed - which we had already done hundreds of time with the Isuzu Troopers we had driven a total of about 220,000 miles, many of those miles off pavement.
Thank you for explaining tire size. I never knew the advantages of narrow tires.
I don't understand peoples obsession with wide tyres. My guess is the advertising from the big 4x4 brands out there and small brains. There's a whole scientific area of study called terramechanics which essentially will mathematically model and show that a tall narrow tyre will outperform a wider tyre in almost every off-road situation. I personally own a Kakadu that came with stock 265/60R18 and went down to GX rims so I could run a skinnier and taller 245/75R17 and it performs vastly better on soft sand. On my LC80 (and my old LC60) I only ever run the 7.5R16. I dare say the 7.5R16 are my favorite soft sand tyre of all time (I'm from WA and drive a hell of a lot of soft sand). The correlation between irresponsibly thinking it's okay to damage tracks and running wide tyres seems fairly strong.
Terramechanics... I'll be researching that. Question: I have to recover some cars (in the next few days) that are in super slick 4"-6" of slick sloshy mud due to these recent California floods. At the moment all I have is a 7,000 lb 2x4 truck on tall skinny street tires. Since this will only be needed for a weekend I'm thinking of just chaining up. Do I air down with chains????
We are in Colorado and we agree with this message! Narrow tires for the win when it comes to snow and lose ground.
Great vid and explanation, cheers
The patch length of the narrow tyre will be longer, the wide tyre may have a circle patch. The area of te patch is roughly the weight of the wheel divided by the tyre pressure after considering stresses in the side wall. There is a video somewhere explaining this. But congratulations, you have a good video. I have kept a record of my fuel consumption, initially with 235 later replaced by 265 and there was a considerable jump with higher fuel consumption. I have also upgraded the suspension with Old man EMU so the unsprung weight shouldn't have been a probleem.
I like skinny tyres for all the above reasons, problem is its hard to get larger diameter tyres which are not wider in smaller towns with out pre order, so, i bought larger diameter that are also wider for diff clearance. Sometimes one just has to compromise.
You have more rubber contact with the road with a narrow tyre. Wide tyres have a wide round contact patch while narrow tyres have a long lateral patch. But the area quantity of contact patch of a parked vehicle is bigger with narrow tyre.
I gotta make a video soon after I get my 255/85r16 on my hummer h3. Your definitely right. My friend has some wide tires and we plan on doing a few snow runs this winter. Taken me a bit too get the rig ready. Will be my first full on snow run with this rig. Thanks for the video brother 🙏
Yeah right now I run 285 75 16 and it's confusing because as a Land Rover Discovery 2 driver they rub easy if you don't do trimming so all the discovery drivers call them wide but when you really look at them from behind they're not that wide compared to a Jeep Rubicon Tire and the Jeep Rubicon has open fenders which can fit wider tires like everyone does on those. But the Jeep also weighs about the same so it makes me wonder how do we actually determine what is considered wide and what is considered narrow you don't just go narrower than what you have what if you have narrow enough? My point is that both the Jeep owners and the Land Rover owners seem to have their Baseline of what they consider to be wide and narrow as different things because of what fits the factory vehicle fenders with or without rubbing and I would like to know a way to determine what's actually optimal not just if it's too wide it rubs if it's more narrow it's better because that approach on the Jeep would put me in something much wider and calling it narrow. Sorry if that sounds kind of crazy does it make sense? Just wondering your opinion I've been asking people and so far no one can give me a good answer they just base everything on the same concept I described. I want to know is there a way to take the weight of your vehicle and calculate should I have 10 in wide or should I have 11.5 Etc
@@ronaldrrootiii6040 pounds per square inch. I’m not sure how to run the math but at 4800 %4 = 1200 per tire then divide the width. 1200% 8 = 150 lbs per square inch width. If you go for a 10” wide you get 120 lbs per square inch. I noticed with my 10 wides I hockey puck a bit because of the low lbs per square. I’m not sure how to find the base line for each vehicle but I know for sure I will do better with a bit more pounds per square inch in the ground. 30 lbs per square is a lot. The 8 wide should perform much better.
@@TinyGoHomes oh okay I see what you're saying that's cool. So on my profile pic here those tires are 11.4 wide and I was thinking of going down to 10. The 11.4 actually perform so well they never slipped they don't seem to have much drag it's like hard to imagine something better but if more PSI on the contact patch then I guess it should be better going down to 10 lol they don't look super wide in that picture. What does hockey puck mean as far as the tires?
@@ronaldrrootiii6040 the less pounds per square inch on the tires it will glide like a hockey puck instead of grab. If there was enough weight in that puck it wouldn’t glide like that.
@@ronaldrrootiii6040 the lower the weight of the vehicle the wider the tire you can go. It’s a math equation I l can’t figure out but they work together. I figure the more weight you have the more pounds per square you will need too stop it. Because jeeps weight less you can use a wider tire compared too an h3. Less weight to stop 🛑
I wonder where the sweet spot is for this. Narrow tires seem to he more effective at all terrain types (expect maybe rocky terrain/rock crawling but i believe narrow tires would still do well). It's just a shame because a wider tyre seems to have a better appearance. Maybe it depends on the vehicle. I do remember having like 32s on a chevrolet truck and my friend had a jeep with 35s and his looked way cooler than mine but whenever we went 4wheeling in snow i only got stuck once and he couldnt follow me over half the places I went.
In very deep soft snow wide low pressure tires are the key, but how many want to crawl on top of the snow?
Out here on the farm lands of SoCal, farm tractors roll with skinny tires with ease in the thickest of mud.
Very clear, interesting and smart !
Yup. My daily driver is a Mazda CX-3 with the expensive pretend-zoom-zoom package ;-) and driving to my in-laws' farm down gravel roads can be downright scary as the low-profile rubber, errrr, rockoplanes?? on the loose gravel - I can only do ~60kph on what should be a ~90kph road!
My narrow tyre education came to me back in the 70s when someone lent me a Citroen 2 cv. And told me it's great of road also. Yea ok, i took this as a joke. The following week taught me much about of road driving bearing in mind land rovers, "all models" have been my main driving force throughout my life. Needless to say the 2 cv even got the better of the landy i was using at that time.
If you ever watched any of the old videos of early 1900 vehicles traveling through mud roads, before they were actually roads. They were more like mud trails through the fields. Even wagons pulled by oxen, the wheels are thin but large diameter bc they present less friction traveling through deep mud or sand. They sink in the mud a foot or more sometimes...but they keep moving anyway. My family had some of the early vehicles, Model T and in order to take a short cut to the nearest village in the winter time they drove down the river bank, across the frozen river covered in snow and up the other side into the neighbor's pasture on the opposite side coming out into his farm yard. I suspect they got stuck once in awhile but the vehicle would be easily pulled free with a couple of horses.
One small error in your comparison between wide and narrow tires:. The contact patch, on a corner of a given vehicle, will be the same if the air pressure is equal. The wider tire will have a shorter (front-to-rear) and wider patch, while the narrow tire's patch will be longer and narrower. But a tire supporting 1,000 lbs (450 kg) at 30 psi (206 kpa) will have the same contact patch AREA (~33 sq in/213 sq cm) regardless of it's profile, size, etc... That said, great video and it's good to see people espousing the benefits of a narrower tire. At highway speeds, they also have less aerodynamic resistance, pushing a little less air!
Great and informative video! Thank you
Manufacturers of 4x4 cars use narrow tires not to spite users or to save them money. Some engineer calculated it, tested it in various conditions and I stick to the factory dimensions (in fact, my tires are a bit narrower and higher than the factory ones). The Samurai with a weak engine is more agile and faster, and is at least as good off-road as on wide tires. Thin axle shafts and small hub bearings seem to be sending me a thank you note (when I get it, I'll show you :P)
But there's a downside! 1. I drove in mountains, tried narrow and wide tyre. It was way more comfortable to traverse a hill with WIDE tyre. It spread out better in sideways, than a narrow one. 2. Narrow one is also more prone to fall into a hole. Wide one more often "caught" the edge (also in deep trails). 3. Narrow tyres are stiffer, especially sidewalls. Wider one flexes way better, even with the same sidewall stiffness due to the "bridge", I don't know how to call it.
Here on KZhead, many years ago, a new Range Rover was released and they tested it on the English(?) countryside next to older gentlemen huntsmen with their older vehicles (some were Rovers as well). 😂The new Rovers couldn’t pull themselves up the slightest hill and performed poorly, while the skinny-tired, older vehicles performed well.
Came for tire discussion, realized I need to compliment the author on their good-looking pair of Blundstone boots. Good day from Canada!
Cheers mate 👌
Had to replace my tires in a rush for my F-150. All I could find was 4 thinner-than-stock tires that quickly. I noticed after driving for a bit on them, I was getting better mileage. Always a good thing with a truck. Handling seemed the same. My truck is 2 wheel drive I don't off-road with it other than paved dirt, so traction isn't normally a thing. On the road traction seems about the same, rather, I can't tell any difference to account for. Was a little bummed I had to go with them at the time. Especially since, I knew I'd not be putting many miles on it each year. These tires will be around for a while! But, I stopped caring, and surely like getting better gas mileage. Someday, maybe around the time I need a new engine, I'll go back to the stock size tires. But, for the foreseeable miles ahead, thinner is just alright with me.
Its been awhile since i was serious about off roading . But it seemed to me the wider the better at least for florida and Georgia. Red clay and sand. With big 1/2 -3/4 ton trucks with v8 in them. 38 to 44 in high were coman and from 15.5 to 18 in wide. On 10-16 in wide rims
High weight per square inch in narrower tyres help to dig into the creeks and crevices, thus increasing the traction. Thats all.
Content is good, but I feel you have missed the reason you have wider tires. Yes if your in the snow they may be beneficial however not all people are in the snow. If you ask most tyre makers having the bigger tyre print allows you more gain for traction due to the width enabling more grip when the tyres are let down to 18psi per say. I get that your kicking out more debris than what you would with a smaller tyre, however your gaining more traction with the width of a wider tyre. Just my thoughts……
Good presentation but don't assume your audience understand, "You get my point", you are telling us that you know we understand, just a small point but I hope helpful, otherwise excellent and I appreciate your clear, measured narration. The other point with 'skinnnys', as I call them, is wheel weight when changing out a flat, big tyres are heavy to lift.
Thank you , and job well done Sir . I believe the ticking sound heard during demonstration is a clever load guage ?
Correct. That has now been fixed.
I have always wondered about that.
This argument was settled way way back yet it rages on. Test reports from the British military settled that large diameter skinny wheels provides a smoother ride and less resistance. Vehicles from the era therefor favoured skinny large dia wheels, even on baby prams. Check out the British Wheel scientific analysis report from 1846. Even the horses and oxen agreed. Yes, I am joking, but they had a point with those extremely tall skinny wheels on the wagons and carts. Thanks for a great video.
Skinny mud terrains on steelies are god-tier