How Lexus Fixed Tesla's Bad Idea: Steer-By-Wire Yoke
Lexus Is Going To Change Steering Forever With Their New Yoke!
Subscribe to Engineering Explained for more videos! - goo.gl/VZstk7
Recommended Books & Car Products - amzn.to/2BrekJm
EE Shirts! - bit.ly/2BHsiuo
The Lexus RZ 450e has a surprising amount in common with the Tesla Model S. They're both electric, they're both all-wheel-drive, and they both offer a steering yoke! Not surprising, Lexus doesn't want to call it a yoke, because Tesla's steering yoke got so much negative feedback upon it's release, and with good reason. Lexus has overcome the Tesla's flaws, however, with a clever new design: steer-by-wire. You see, there isn't anything physically connecting the steering wheel to the steering rack; all communication is electronic!
Before you freak out, know that we'll deep dive into this technology in this video, answering the following five questions:
1) How does steer-by-wire work?
2) Why would you use steer-by-wire, and what are the advantages?
3) Can you trust steer-by-wire to be safe and reliable?
4) Why is Tesla's steering yoke a bad design?
5) What drawback's does Lexus steer-by-wire system have?
Enjoy the video!
Engineering Explained is a participant in the Amazon Influencer Program.
Don't forget to check out my other pages below!
Instagram: / engineeringexplained
Facebook: / engineeringexplained
Twitter: / jasonfenske13
EE Extra: / @engineeringexplainede...
Car manufacturers are on a mission to over-complicate every basic function of a car.
Then go ahead and drive a car with no power steering, no abs, no power windows, no ac, no radio, and no door locks.
wire is easier
@@PunzL ... Given the choice of what you suggest & the choice of all this new TOTAL ELECTRONIC OVERKILL BULL💩.... I would choose the old school you suggest everytime. 😉👍🏼😎
@@PunzL racecar
@ Justin Papin ... You NAILED IT my friend!!! What you said is sad but true...
One important benefit you didn't touch on Jason is that removing the steering column leads to increased crash safety. Steering columns are a real pain for automotive engineers as the linkages needs to be able to break so that a column doesn't impale your chest. Removing the steering column completely helps with crash safety a lot.
My immediate thought as well 👏
That engineering problem was solved decades ago, though
@@luisdetomaso867removing a problem from having to be solved is better than keeping a solution to the problem. It also provides more flexibility in design.
@@_KingRaz Right. An electromechanical system that costs thousands of dollars and has dozens of components and failure points is a better solution than a $25 collapsible linkage
@@luisdetomaso867 well said ;)
Steering Ration differences were already a thing 15 years ago in my car and is a thing in most german cars. It was also adjusting to the ratio to the speed for comfort and those cars have and had a steering shaft.
It's been around much longer than that, 30 years or so, and I hated it in my 94 Cadillac
I have it on my audi
I think the video mentions that, but notes more options, such as the driver being able to specify different behaviors.
Does the Model S have it? It would really come in handy with a yoke.
There is a limit on how much you can change the ratio.
A software bug with your accelerator isn't likely to be fatal. A software bug with your steering wheel very likely is. Even the F-22 with an "unlimited" R&D budget lost an aircraft to a FBW software bug. It's just hard to write software that's as reliable as a chunk of metal...
Yeah, when he said we already have it in the accelerator. Except, if an accelerator fails it can either be designed to fail safe to zero throttle OR one can simply cut the engine. Short of installing an ejector seat, wtf do you do when that comms link is lost?!
@@devsfan1830let Jesus take the wheel...
Your accelerator bugging and sending you full speed can absolutely be fatal
@@user-ix9lx4sp1z except you have breaks
Software design is improving and we are able to write more complicated bug-free-guaranteed controllers. Steer by wire in car is a lot simpler than the one in planes and yet we do have steer by wire in all airbus airliners for already several decades working well without single issue. F-22 is an order of magnitude more complicated machine than a civil service airliner. In fact with modern tools it may be easier to construct safer steer by wire than it is a mechanical system. It's not like an assisted mechanical shaft can't fail - there is also a lot of complicated engineering that goes into it to make it safe - it's just that it's been there already for so many decades that it has been figured out and design doesn't change anymore.
I feel one of the biggest benefits is being able to build cars that are either left or right hand drive. As the steering column is one of the hardest things to shift from one side to the other but not in a drive by wire system.
@@ThomasVWorm easier said than done. We Brits gets charged more for the "special" edition
@@ThomasVWorm the point is that it's a lot easier to do that configuration much later - it's just a different dashboard instead of a completely different layout in the engine bay...
maybe british people should just use right hand drive like normal people
@@ThomasVWorm few people includes all of Japan, Hong Kong, India, Brunei, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Malaysia, Pakistan, Singapore, Indonesia, and Sri Lanka, East Timor ,Macau , Thailand ,Kenya, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Lesotho, Botswana, Malawi, Zambia, Namibia, Swaziland, Uganda, and Tanzania, Fiji, Pitcairn Islands, Kiribati, Tuvalu, and Niue. Nauru, Samoa, Papua New Guinea, Tonga, and Solomon Islands, Australia , New Zealand, Guernsey, the Isle of Man , Jersey, Ireland, Malta, and Cyprus ,Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados Bermuda, Bhutan,Botswana, British Virgin Islands,Brunei, Cayman Islands, Christmas Island, Cocos (Keeling) Islands, Cook Islands, Dominica,East Timor, Eswatini, Falkland Islands, Guyana, India, Indonesia, Jamaica, Kiribati, Lesotho, Malawi, Malaysia, ,Maldives, Montserrat, Mozambique, Namibia,Nauru, Nepal ,Niue, Norfolk Island, Papua New Guinea, Pitcairn Islands ,Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, Seychelles, Singapore,Solomon Islands ,South Africa, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, Sri Lanka, Suriname, Tanzania Tokelau, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, U. S. Virgin Islands, Uganda , United Kingdom, Zambia, Zimbabwe so a tiny market !!
@@ThomasVWorm They're at least one-fifth of the worlds population.
I'm glad you addressed the lag toward the end of the video. Within 5 seconds of starting the video I literally said out loud "Wow. You can SEE the lag!" That is a deal breaker.
Shouldn't most gamers be accustomed to working in an environment with noticeable lag?
I mean it might be a deal breaker in a sports car. But I don't see why it would cause problems for a daily driver.
@@MetalheadAndNerd No. Gamers do everything in their power to get rid of lag. If you can see it easily with your eyes, it's WAY too much for gaming. You might not think this steering lag is THAT bad... until you need to make a quick evasive maneuver and the lag causes you to hit what you were trying to avoid. Your brain alread has a 180-200ms reaction time. You certainly don't want to double that.
@@MetalheadAndNerd I literally stopped playing Geometry Dash because I started to notice the latency and it felt awkward and I'd play worse, if the latency is noticeable I consider it already beyond unusable
All steering lags, it’s the flex in the metal. Will you notice more?
"I have a keyboard" 🤣🤣🤣
I think, just like fly-by-wire on commerical aircraft to help reduce human error and some workload (on hand flying, mainly), this can really help with the comfort of bus or truck drivers. Having the steering wheel placed in yhe best position for ergonomics, rather than lining it up with the front tyres, and the less bumpiness of the steering I think could help a lot
Finnaly somone with some knowledge
You're a great engineer
My primary concern is how easy they have made it to access and maintain with that many components. In my experience, when things like this get changed, self maintenance is what suffers because it takes a lot of extra work to engineer things to be also easy to replace/repair.
How often do you do self maintenance on the steering systems of a car? There’s barely maintenance to be done on EVs like these that you wouldn’t need a mechanic for either way
@@davidlake611 Aptera says otherwise
The biggest problem is that we won't find out until 3 to 5 years down the road, maybe even longer. Then it will be the problem of the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th owner and/or the shop that does the repair. Replacing the timing belt on my Toyota V6 ($45 part) is more than $600 in labor because of all the stuff that has to come off to get to the belt. The same job on my old Ford Escort was about $120 labor.
@@davidlake611 It is not just SELF maintenance. It is about the ease of maintenance. And how many mechanics will be able/allowed to repair it. And the answer is money of course, like always. Like with the LED lights. One led fails? change the whole thing for a 1000$. Changing just a standardized bulb? Nah, because that would make sense. (Why there are no standardized LED modules?) Same will apply here. One actuator failed? Only authorized service is allowed, but they will do it just for a 10% of the car price, so no worries.
@@panvomacka9079 Exactly what i thought , anyone think they will be able to replace the steering angle sensor(or one of them) without dealer specific computer to recalibrate a safety critical component will be enjoying the thousands it will cost to have the whole assembly replaced. Im all for improvements in tech but steer by wire just sounds like over-complication of a good system with one flaw(you need to turn the wheel more at low speeds)
That steering wheel delay alone would be a deal breaker for me. But I do like the idea of adaptive steering wheel ratio (done well).
Same, there is literally no reason for such a delay on this steer by wire system,
Agreed. They haven't announced release date for this system in the US, so there's still time, and I'm hoping that's fixed. A big talking point was that it would be instant, and not have a delay like a mechanical system. For now, the opposite is true. And admittedly, the "delay" in mechanical systems is quite small. There is some slop, anytime you have many interconnected linkages - companies like McLaren put a lot of emphasis in using really rigid components (like the steering shaft) so that there's very little twist, just direct feel.
@@EngineeringExplained I wonder if they'll switch to some sort of fiber optic communication to achieve less of a delay, although you'll have to process the data before and after the fiber.
Yes, I guess this would cause the car to feel really "sluggish" during quick turns. Like for example many SUVs can do because of suspension roll, but worse.
Steer by wire, a huge money pit for the owner in the future.
We've been dealing with these problems for years in simracing gear and although they do feel great now, they still don't feel like the real thing, and that's despite having the feedback calculated almost instantly, rather than measuring the forces with sensors. That is because real wheels introduces constant resistance, whereas electronic ones can provide a single-directional force only, that is applied as a response to driver turning the wheel - you need to turn first before the motor kicks in, which makes it feel disjointed. It's also terrifying to see the wheels decalibrate at 12:35, especially considering all these multi-redundant safety claims.
It was during turning right from max left position, so it is just a delay.
I worked 40+ years in the forest industry and the drive by wire controls are never as good and the feedback is total crap. Accuracy of response is always worse.
this should be more accurate than sim racing because the feedback in sim depends on the games tyre, suspension and inertia physics, in steer by wire its literally a sensor that says "road make rack turn x distance over x time with x force, make wheel turn x degrees over x time with x force"
What a perfectly edited fascinating video! Top shelf production quality, well done!
Today there are already plenty of construction and mining vehicles which use steer-by-wire with some great features. One I really like is the angle-variable steering sensitivity instead of a speed-variable one. In the center you get a really precise steering with a high ratio, while towards the limits you get a much lower steering ratio. The same trick is used by several pc racing wheels.
Yeah, I get the point but these vehicles only operate at low to very low speeds compared to an EV.
I've found that angle variable steering makes machinery much harder to navigate through narrow environments, I'd much rather turn the wheel an extra time for that increased control.
Construction and mining equipment are driving round at 20kph at a closed area. Not 100kph passing oncoming traffic without a barrier in between. I bet you have no idea how many people die because of these new inventions. Like for example the auto pilot of Tesla. I bet you didn't know that there have been loads of deadly accidents directly due to the actions of the autopilot. That kind of things are well kept secrets.
@@Dani-it5sy Your bet is totally wrong, it's my work to comission and automation of HIL simulators for the automotive industry. Except for a joy ride to try something new, I would not use Tesla FDS and I would always keep my eyes on the road, but I would absolutely buy a car with electronic steering. The later is a system which can be fully validated and verified during development.
@@danielrose1392 I tried several cars with electric power steering and they are all rubbish. There is a reason why BMW choose to just eliminate the power steering above 30kph on some of the M models . They just could not get the propper road feel acceptable for an M car. But most people aren't really ''drivers'' . They just want to get from a to b and have some gadgets onboard. Hence the fact that SUV's are so popular. For them I guess it's ok. Although on the Hyundai I40 the road feel was so bad it was almost dangerous. You put the car into a corner and you suddenly end up 40cm further out than you expected. Crossing the middle line. It is just not intuitive. But my wife never noticed the problem. She is a novice when it comes to driving.
Not wild about this but I’d love to try one in the real world. I feel like the variable steering ratio would take some time getting used to and could possibly cause some issues when first getting used to it. The ratio could be different than the driver is expecting in some situations when learning the system
i think its dangerous ... 1 accidental jerk to one side or the other and you are fuxed
Definitely took some getting used to! Watching back my driving footage, there numerous moments where I'd steer, then realize I'd put in too much angle, and correct. I predict we'll see many curbed wheels when these first come out. 😂
@@EngineeringExplained 6:18 I heard a clunk of some sort 😬. Was this what I think it was? 😉
I sure variable steering ratios exist in racks world doesn't it? I want to say Mercedes....
@@EngineeringExplained That is an excellent explanation as usual, I like the idea of variable steering ratio, and I love my Model Y single pedal mode and think you would adjust to variable speed steering quickly. Still, NHTSA would put up so many roadblocks for Tesla to implement.
I’d never heard of this until Cybertrucks delivery event… this was very well explained. I think I’ll like it as I love regen braking!!
**Important Update** Many have asked if the maximum angle the front wheels can turn is limited at higher speeds, since it uses a shorter ratio. I reached out to Lexus for more information. They said "the amount or angle the wheels of the vehicle can turn left-to-right in a vehicle equipped with Steer by Wire is the same at 5mph and 85mph (they are also the exact same angle values left-to-right as on the traditional EPS steering system vehicles). The changes are in the actuation of that steering rack left-to-right and the variable speed that you reach during that turning function as vehicle speed increases." I have asked some clarifying questions and will provide updates here once received. **Edit 1:** Here is the clarification they provided. FYI - it does not match what was stated above. "RZ with Traditional Steering completes a full lock to the L or R turn in roughly 540°. RZ with Steer By Wire (version in France) completes a full lock to the L or R turn in roughly 150°. This implies the base ratio is 3.6:1, which that for every 1° of driver input at the steering wheel in a Steer-By-Wire RZ, the wheels on the road would operate equivalent to the driver providing a 3.6° input in a traditional steering (540° system). This solves the question of low speed ratio, but as we accelerate we reach a point closer to 1:1 or beyond, in this scenario if the steer-by-wire driver only has 150 partitions or input angles that can be sent to the computer, at 1:1 ratio - the Steer By Wire system only has 27% potential of available max steering angle (equivalent to roughly 1/3 of a full-lock turn). HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING FROM HERE ON: As we approach exceptionally high speeds, the ratio could become even greater skewed on Input:Output so 1 degree input could mean 0.2 degree of output for the wheels. That means that for every 5 degrees of steering wheel turn by the driver, the wheels at the road would be turning the equivalent of 1 single degree input in a traditional steering vehicle. This provides the feeling of ultimate precision and fun while driving at high speed because you are truly feeling every decimal partition of steering angle so you can very accurately steer the vehicle where you want it go. 540° & 150° are the angles we know and have experienced. The 3.6:1 ratio is a simple calculation that shows the relationship of those values. We have a confirmation but not a provided data sheet, that at some speed beyond 10mph the ratio begins to skew towards 1:1 or more, so the rest of the values (i.e. 0.2°) are completely made up values but the math proves the concept. Purely for the case of the argument - let’s say the driver is doing 80mph and at that speed every angle of driver steering wheel input is 0.2 equivalent degree of output at the wheels. If we multiply the 150 degrees of full lock input available to the driver at the steering wheel by the 0.2 degree output at the wheels, our total steering angle would be 30 degrees. As the driver applies the brakes or accelerates, the algorithm of input/output adjusts thus giving the driver “more access” or “less access” to max steering angle. 5mph: 150° Input by 3.6 Output = 540° “full lock turn” equivalent or 100% of max steering angle available 45mph: 150° Input by 1 Output = 150° equivalent or 27% of max steering angle available 60mph: 150° Input by 0.35 Output = 52.5° or 9.7% of max steering angle available 80mph 150° Input by 0.2 Output = 30° or 5.5% of max steering angle available This may seem strange to think about, but imagine going 80 mph and without slowing down turn the steering wheel of ANY vehicle 540° to the full lock position…… nobody in their right mind would ever do that because it would undoubtedly cause a serious accident. Having access to truly full lock steering ratio at 80mph is not something anyone ever takes advantage of or is physically capable of doing on a road because as you begin to turn that aggressively at speed, you would completely run out of road surface to drive on before being able to even complete the full lock turn. There is also the high likelihood that if a driver attempted to do a full-lock turn at 80mph, the vehicle would have the possibility to flip over. We know it takes about 2.2 seconds for an average driver to make a 540°. At 80mph, approximately 200 feet are covered in 2 seconds. With the average lane width in the US being 12ft (source: Google Search), it would require a road 16.67 lanes wide to be able to complete a full lock turn (without slowing down at 80mph, if that were even physically possible without disrupting or flipping the vehicle over). Conclusion: The higher speed one goes in ANY vehicle, traditional steering or Steer By Wire, the less useful max steering angle becomes, if even physically possible to achieve. So the Steer by Wire system mathematically limiting access to max steering angle becomes a non-issue from a drivability or experience standpoint. Having an inherent base ratio of roughly 3.6:1 and (a hypothetical) 0.2:1 at high speeds provides extreme ease of use at low speeds in parking lots or u-turns while providing an exceptionally precise feeling when steering at higher speeds and provides a complete range of differing input:output ratios to match the situationally indefinitely. (The faster you drive, the more precise the steering ratio)."
What happens if you alternator took a crap, while on the highway and you keep driving until your battery gets to low. then what happens ?
@@ugetridofit this is an electric car, no alternator, and as discussed, you have three batteries, so if you main battery dies (you run out of range) you still have two batteries which can power the steering.
I wonder how very experienced drivers would feel when your brain is trained for fixed ratio. Also switching between cars might be annoying
If the driver can command the wheels to the same angles at 5 and 85 mph, but changes near center are reduced to prevent it from feeling twitchy, then changes far from center must be larger. To me that sounds like a recipe for fishtailing, with unintuitive controls in an emergency.
So effectively the car has a fixed total steering ratio and as you go up in speed the center of the turning arc is elongated for precision control and the edges are compressed to equal net 0 change in total steering angle? wouldn't this cause rapid change in turning angle as you approach the locks which at high speed can roll the car? Most peoples automatic response to the moose test is turning the wheel 90 degrees but in this car that would turn you up to 300% of what you are expecting which is very dangerous. I don't see the practical need for full steering at high speeds why not just cut some of it off for a more consistent and safer turning experience.
for a lot of fps gamers, they turn off mouse acceleration (so mouse & cursor movement ratio is constant regardless of speed) for better muscle memory and accurate aiming. I feel like the dynamic steering ratio will behave similarly to mouse acceleration for cars, it will be convenient to a lot of drivers, but it will take time to get use to, and some people will absolutely despise it.
This was my take as well. I feel like the changing steering ratios would be really off putting to me
It should be noted that people are specifically turning off Windows' mouse acceleration, which is complete and utter dogshit, primarily because it DOES NOT give the same output given the same input and uses a curve based on the shape of the pottery shards leftover from the vase shattered on the engineer's head that made it. A good and proper implementation of mouse acceleration means you have that same ability to build muscle memory because the same input gives the same output, and you, the user, can define the curve of acceleration same as you would a fan curve for a PC. But it does make mouse movement more complicated by implementing an additional "axis" to control mouse movement, allowing more control, which is better or worse depending on who you ask. It still doesn't make a ton of sense for a mouse if you have enough room, though.
Well I absolutely love mouse acceleration and use it at the highest settings even during games, if you use a good mouse like logitech g series something you can build good enough muscle memory without issue, if you chinese mouse like redragon something its annoying and you would struggle getting used to it, how consistent the yolk is will depend if people hate it or love it ... if I had the money I would definitely buy this lexus.
@@SolidSt8Dj this is a good point. My fps gaming has gotten alot better when I truned on mouse acceleration, but the caveat is i'm not using microsoft native acceleration. I use an external program called rawaccel, which allows for defining more linear and predictable acceleration curves.
I thought also it is the thing in games to turn off acceleration for muscle memory. I used to play in callofduty mobile. And learned to play with no acceleration for about 1.5 years. The sensitivity has been a trade off. I could be good either in close quarters combat or on long distance. After all I found some "oversteering" with my fingers inputs after fast moves - that was an inertia. That ruined the speed of aiming. I tried sometimes to play with minimal speed accelerations but found it unpredictable for me. But then I tried max acceleration adjusted sensitivity to it and got what I wanted. Very fast aiming time without overflying. That's because when your finger slows down your sensitivity drops gradually also. And physical overflying is negligible in aiming. Of course you can't provide input speed acceleration on a car steering. Basically because your straight point on a wheel will always be in different places. But you can do distance acceleration. So the further you turn the wheel the more acceleration in turning speed of the wheels you get.
The part that excites me the most is the adjustability. I'm "only" 6'3", but I've yet to drive a car where I can be far enough away from the pedals while still reaching the steering wheel comfortably. In my current car i have the seat as far back as I can, but with the back very straight to push my upper body closer to the wheel.
Awesome video! The points you brought up are honestly pretty reasonable and I never thought about steering that way. Thank you! At 11:00. I think it's entirely possible someone could legitimately need to do an aggressive steering maneuver. Limiting that takes control away from the driver and pushes full liability to the company.
Yep. And lets be honest, a lot of people suck at driving. And now when they try to do an aggressive steering maneuver, the car might not move as aggressively. Yikes.
i think its more like flight envelope protection on flybywire aircraft where the controls limit you so you cant stall the plane but still be able to have control. similarly this system would hopefully only limit steering inputs that would certainly cause a spin or a loss of control. but if this is the case car manufacturers like in aircraft need to provide some way to turn this system off when you need it so the steering inputs become direct when the system doesnt have the neccecary data to know what will cause a loss of control (like in airbus aircraft normal- and direct law).
The steering ratio that automatically adjusts during acceleration seems really interesting. One thing I would like to try, is to go in a very large open space, turn the yoke a certain amount and then accelerate while keeping the yoke in the same position. It would be interesting to watch the line start off turning sharply, and then it kind of smooths out and gets straighter the faster I'm going.
Is this the kind of stuff you come up with while dreaming at night?! lol (jk) It would be interesting to find out how exactly Lexus approaches this scenario. ;)
You mean you want to just experience some understeer? What would be more interesting to accelerate and experience no change to steering radius. Prodrive made P2 ages ago with active diffs that allowed that.
The automatically adjusting ratio will mean Navigating the same turns would never feel the same
@@samueladole6074 - I was thinking the same too, they probably have proportional steering under various speeds. I guess that's the beauty of steer-by-wire, they can customize it for any conditions. They could even include a profile menu selectable by the driver such as "Lame soccer mom", "Midlife crisis dad", "Crazy teenager". :D :D
@@samueladole6074 that's kind of a good thing. When everything feels the same, the driver starts to zone out. They feel like they know every corner of the road and could drive even with eyes closed, and might not notice a kid crossing the road.
Fly-By-Wire has been a thing in aviation for quite a while now, it's interesting to see it now introduced to cars.
Also interesting to see the same old haters thet claimed fbw was unsafe and would kill everyone come up with the same argument once again, sigh, guess it's time for round 2
@@johjoh9270 They don't talk about the 787 and (737 Max FBW spoiler). The only issue I can see if the driver changes vehicles to a non DBW
The precision required for in inputs in an aircraft vs a car are very, very different. An aircraft, for example, is never operating within a couple feet of obstacles. The immediacy of response and especially haptic feedback are far less important in aircraft. Fly by wire also allows for much larger aircraft, as the amount of force required from the pilot to actuate longer runs of mechanical cabling and the forces required on the control surfaces increase dramatically with the size of the aircraft.
In bikes also that is a thing from many years. Race by wire
I don't have a problem with fly-by-wire systems, because airlines have to follow extremely strict maintenance standards, the pilots undergo several years of training, and the systems have multiple layers of redundancy. On the other hand, car owners often drive like maniacs and neglect even basic maintenance just to save a few pennies, and the redundancy provided by a physical steering column is lost in a steer-by-wire system. Therefore, I don't have confidence in this technology being used in road cars.
GM offered back in like the early 70's an variable ratio steering for some models. It was mechanically built into the steering box. The ratio changed from the center to the lock stops. I believe an Camaro with this option had like 2.3 turns lock to lock.
Yes, that varies the ratio by steering position, but cannot vary it by vehicle speed or any other parameter.
Really amazing explanation and analysis! Short ratio steering in my Focus RS is the absolute best modern steering system I've experienced, but it definitely does require a little extra work on the highway so on point there. 😂
I would love to try this on the real world. My only "concern" really would be how it performs on the moose test, avoiding obstacles at high speed, and how would it deal when you approach a roundabout while going quick. Aside of that the tech sounds solid.
YES we NEED moose test
@@billhanna2148 they will definitely make all the different tests possible this is no joke
When driving on winter roads covered with snow/ice, my instinct is always to keep my hands at ten to two on the wheel. If the back end steps out, that's the ideal position to correct it. With a yoke, that isn't possible. And the indicators need to be operated by stalks, not buttons on the yoke. Indicating when exiting roundabouts when the indicators are activated by buttons on the yoke is just... No. Just no.
@@hadtopicausername well 10 and 2 is not the correct place to have your hands on any wheel so your point there is irrelevant. I'm not defending yokes, but that argument is wrong. And if you watch the video you'll see it has indicator stalks.
@@hadtopicausername no stalks on drive by wire probably wouldn’t be a problem as your hands are always on the wheel in the same place.
FYI steer-by-wire was already present in 2013 Infinity Q50 series. Yes, ten years ago. It had a fallback to a direct driving shaft via a clutch
thats the kind of redundancy I'd like to see in this
@@GordonTurnerr bmw has something similar for the gas pedal, if the wire fails there is minimal throttle still available on the pedal. You can imagine why i know:)
a couple weird things but definitely cool... if I understand right the traditional wheel version isn't the same, its actually mechanically linked. personally, I think I'd still prefer to have a round steering wheel even with the variable steering ratio provided by steer by wire, and I'd would love to see it as an option in cars that will want to use yokes like this. Also the way it's adjusting itself automatically at different speeds would probably have me on edge at first, I guess I'm scared it could be unpredictable? Yes you talk about these but I just needed to let the nervous energy out.
By the time it's caused a few accidents the average driver will be used to the changing gear ratio and how it adapts. lol
One safety concern was not mentioned. Higher-speed evasive maneuvers! I really look forward to see how the drive-by-wire systems will deal with the moose test!🤔 In general e-cars have very good results due to low center of gravity. But in this case the limited wheel stear in maximum turn could be a problem above certain speed.
That's what I'm wondering about. In danger situations, people also tend to yank hard to one side and if the steering ratio changes, that can be disastrous.
@@cchavezjr7the change in ratio happens at low speeds, for parking your car, manoeuvring in car parks etc. At highway speeds the ratio is closer to a normal ratio you have on your car today so it shouldn't be any more dangerous.
@@gordon1201 and in those situations most people gab the wheel and turn it about 90º - 120º there not going hand over hand full lock.
When left as an OPTION, this seems really smart. Based on your comprehensive evaluations, I expect I would be very uncomfortable with steer by wire, so would have problems with being forced into using it.
the wheel part/interior for now should be yoke and non yoke aka 4 ordering code option's, im sure that probably will get widdeld down to one popular choice like manual transmission's now general not being ordered anymore 😢but at least the sales/engineering team can get a better idea of what people actually want/willingly to pay for i probably wouldn't mind having the by wire but the yoke im not sold on yet, as i haven't ever used a yoke and most to me are in unpractical movie/show car's ect
What is uncomfortable? Airplanes have been fly by wire for decades
@@JoeBidenEnthusiast For me, it's shown in the first 5 seconds, the steering wheel is already 45 degrees to 90 degrees turned to the right before the front wheels even reach neutral. I'd like to have more immediate response as well as a mechanical feedback through the system.
@@TheWildSlayer streering by wire the tow/alignment can be 👌all the time and not a compromise for longer tread life and NVH ect, so around a racing track it's faster lap times ect and pot holes have less of a negative pull on the car as 1 wheel can temporarily go nuts but it wouldn't pull it into on coming traffic or roll so actually in theory is handles better as for the feedback loops that's yet to be determined as it could be 👌or 💩 , so without me/you driving is a unfair call, as for 180-wheel and my video games as a teen you can get used to it but as i pointed to sometimes it's nice having the option for fixed 10:1 ratio like i said the yoke very well might be 👍but my experience is watching the tv 📺not using it in a daily driver's car intended for the end users experiences also like i point to auto pilot+yoke is probably not bad but im a manuel transmission's TR6060/1950-68-🇺🇸 convertible vibe's control and privacy's freak so i just don't feel comfortable using yet or buying a car with lots of cameras+gps ect
Nissan has used it in some of their higher end products for a number of years & as far as I know they haven't had any issues - but as a software engineer, I wouldn't drive or ride in one.
Also now it's easy to make a RH drive variant as you just change where the wire goes, rather than having to invert the entire linkage system
There's more to that thank just inverting the linkage system, but yes, one less thing to redesign
Or in Lexus’ case being Japanese, make a LHD from a RHD 😊
Great point. No surprise that an American did not consider this.
And a slightly more optimized manufacture and supply chain
LH drive variant, you mean.
The first thought i had about this was delay lol and you brought it up in the end, nice! It sounds cool overall, but I would like to see a moose test for this :)
My 2014 Infiniti Q50S Hybrid has Steer by Wire. Amazed with all the technology this car has for 2014 model.
My concern with the speed relative steering sensitivity is how it would behave when you slow down quickly. Example being if you're going along a bend on the highway and suddenly traffic stops in front of you or something. If your panic response is to slam the break and grasp the steering wheel at the angle you were holding it, then as the car slows it would steer harder and harder into the direction you were turning. That might be something we would intuitively compensate for, but I feel like it could also throw some people off and cause an overcorrection or loss of control. I'd love to see someone test a scenario like this and report how it behaves.
Yes! My thoughts exactly. If you had to come to a quick stop in an inside bend, you might end up off-roading. If you had to come to a quick stop in an outside bend, you might end up deforming oncoming traffic.
This is where the manufacturer has to make the steering responses "smart" with no noticeable delay/latency that was demonstrated. In high speed emergency maneuvers there can be NO delay and extreme speed turning turned on (high sensitivity) to stay safe. A lot of software tweeking involved to override the "normal" steering algorithms.
If I had to guess the steering ratio will not change with speed while holding any angle to prevent exactly this issue. It also likely wouldn't change during rapid deceleration to prevent unexpected changes in steering angle which can roll the car. The fact that the car isn't changing steering ratios to prevent his crazy steering inputs in the video makes it seem like they are very conservative about when they will change the steering ratio on you.
I have the same concern. One other point to consider is that the driver may hold the steering angle or... do they hold the steering with a certain amount of *force* or is it a blend of the two? since the force feedback changes with speed and tire loading, there are potentially two parameters to play with and consider here. I am interested to learn how they came to resolve this.
We already have variable steering ratio in the VW GTI, works perfectly.
I would really like to see how the mushy response handles accident avoidance at high speed. It looked to me like you would not be able to avoid a collision as well with this.
Good point. I'd like to see this tech operate in -45c with winter, snow, salt conditions.
A large wandering moose has entered the chat...
90's Citroen Xantia: Hold My Beer...
I think this could actually improve the response: a too quick change of direction of the front wheels could lead to losing grip or unsettle the balance of the car. With steer-by-wire systems the car can always adjust the steering angle to maximize front wheel grip based on speed, angular velocity, individual tire grip, weight distribution, etc.
@@tamasbella3395 (about your comment on the mechanical steering ) Yes, but it is predictable. You are the one deciding at what pace the steering is done. You can't remove the human factor in a human driven car. I say - let's get rid of the steering wheel completely, it makes more sense than remove the level of human action effect in the driving. Anything that is not predictable is dangerous. You want safer roads in the era of densely vehicle populated roads - make the whole drivers license acquiring process 2x more complicated, make people get public transport.
Superb video. You're a great presenter -- clear, organized, thorough and no dippy "background music." You've just become my car tech guy of choice! Thanks.
the thing about the adjustable steering ratio is that it'll be very difficult to account for scenarios where varying rates of steering are required with short times inbetween. for example when the car loses grip or when having to avoid an obstable at differing speeds
you think them asian engineers with master's degrees didn't have solution for this?
What a brilliant explanation! Many thanks!
I love that you explain everything in a way that I can understand :) Channel title checks out! As a driver enthusiast, I can't see myself any time soon upgrading to a vehicle like this, say it were released and I had the funds. However as a logical and relatively progressive person I am super intrigued by this and wonder where it could go and how it could evolve. The fact that you get tire feedback at all through this system is mind boggling, engineers are cool :)
Thankfully its optional
Kinda like a PS5 controller lol
Once again, another excellent video by Jason ! I used to work in General Dynamics' Flight Control Hardware Design Group. They were the ones who invented the Fly-By-Wire system for the F-16 aircraft. (The reference standard was an analog electronic system, which was later upgraded to a digital system.) I'm excited to see an auto maker has finally ventured to make a Drive-By-Wire system. Regarding safety, I appreciate that Lexus used redundant electric motors in the steering actuator. By comparison, most aircraft use 3 or 4 redundant channels for the sensors and computers, then 2 hydraulic systems in the actuators. Regarding the lag observed at 12:12, that can be compensated by using a feed-forward gain in the signal path. That is relatively easy to implement in the control software.
do your sums
Hmm, remember the 737Max accident. Just because 1 faulty sensor and pilot have no control over steering the plane, because system trusted the sensor rather than pilot
@@rifa.3307 There was only a single angle-of-attack sensor on the aircraft that crashed. Very much out of line with the engineering principles stated by auxpowerunit. The faulty system could be disabled, but the doomed pilots had not been informed about that.
@@Thankz4sharing if it is only because single sensor, why 737Max grounded for so long? Do you trust toyota more than boeing? Are you certain there is redundancies inside? What about faulty tesla gas pedal?
@@rifa.3307 The 737 Max story is too complicated to go into here. Wikipedia has a full explanation. I don't trust the first generation of any company's technology. Airlines have enormous competitive pressures that I don't have. I'm not certain about Toyota BZ redundancies because I haven't examined them firsthand. I trust Savagegeese to be truthful. I'm pretty sure that Teslas don't have gas pedals.
Good video! You summed up your impressions well right there. The nerd in me says “ hey funny” but honestly as car driver I find it’s disconnecting you from the car too much. I’m also an enemy of faking feedback with electric motors. That’s kind of the same discussion when it’s about capacitive touch. It feels disconnected and artificial no matter how well you fake the feedback. At certain to me critical points I’d always prefer direct feedback and good haptic over a manufactured experience. (Let’s not mention the imput lag that also had your attention and it’s dependencies)
As someone who works on their own cars, it sounds like an expensive nightmare if/when something goes wrong, however, chances are, someone who can afford such a car can likely foot the bill on the repairs when they come. My biggest opposition to over complicating systems like this is the matter of how well they'll age. My newest car is 20 years old but the mechanical components tend to age much nicer than electric ones. Pushing over 300k miles on my daily driver, i could only imagine how much of a toll that time and miles will have on 100% electric components. In the end, it all comes down to preference as mentioned.
The 86 Mazda I mentioned in my response, where the heater mix door system was by wire, cost of replacing the electronic part that failed was over $1,000, most of which I believe was the part. That was picked up by warranty even though out of warranty, but that sort of goes to your point. If a cable had been used instead that would have been less than a $50 part. The dash control part perhaps slightly more, but still a lot cheaper. Not to mention the cost of the test machine to diagnose the issue.
Mechanically this is much simpler though, and I don't see why it couldn't be cheaper too with economies of scale.
I think eventually this manner of steering will become the new standard, which in my mind is a shame, since electronic systems like these are often expensive to repair and impossible to do by yourself. They'll likely need to be taken to specialist, licensed garages with the appropriate software. This again brings more money back into the hands of the manufacturer. Additionally, any cost downs in manufacture made through the simpler re-mapping of the steering apparatus for left/right hand drive, likely won't be passed on to the consumer
"if/when something goes wrong" It will. No matter the price of the car; it is going to start failing around the ~150.000 kms mark.
@@OwnGrid nope. By me experience, its just the opposite: mechanical parts endurance is dozens of times higher. Electric motors fail fast, electronics fail fast. And that is why all heavy industry uses hydraulic and/or pneumatic systems.
That input lag would drive me nuts! I'm also not a fan of a steering system with no mechanical linkage between the steering wheel and gear. Yes, it has three power sources, but it's possible a CAN communication error could cause it to shut down or produce weird outputs from the steering motor. Excellent video!
It's also possible for a mechanical system to bind or break.
I highly doubt it's CAN. It's probably BroadR Reach/100Base T1. This automotive ethernet is becoming more and more common in new vehicles, especially EVs because you maintain the speed of industrial ethernet and keep the simplistic 2 wire twisted pair of CAN.
@@wakingchristian he is talking about you changing direction on the steering wheel and the actual time the motor takes to turn the wheels to the position of the steering. Not the signal ping.
@MUGEN I'm addressing the comment that a CAN communication error could occur. I'm saying that they would not use CAN because CAN is slow. It is not ideal for that application. They could use CAN-FD that is a bit faster but still is somewhat volatile.
No reason they can't use redundant comms. Probably the least expensive thing to make redundant in the entire system.
I'd be curious to see how this responds in certain situations - like on an exit where you may go from 60 to 35 miles per hour while steering the same amount - will you start steering at a steeper angle despite not changing steering angle?
Underrated comment
Exactly what I was wondering! Does the switch happens when you go straightforward ?
I'd assume that in terms of driving feel steering angle = turning Gs. So yes, but it will probably feel really intuitive. Your steering angle is dictated by turning 'feel' rather than the size of the turn
my 2015 audi s4 has that, and yes the steering changes depending on the speed.
F1 has this
Great video. At least now that the Cybertruck came out, Tesla now does a yoke correctly with the steer-by-wire.
Thanx for this entertaining enlightenment video. I always like your video's the way you make them. First let me say that I totally agree about Tesla and the mistake they made not to make their yoke steering active (like BMW offers as an extra) or in this case of Lexus steer by wire. The Yoke in the Plaid is ridiculous the way it is working currently. And for the Lexus flaw the delay in the reaction time of the wheels..... Is that not a question of standing still and the steering motor has to work harder? The same is the case for common car steering systems
11:14 what about when you need to jerk your wheel quickly to avoid a prius driver that got in an accident in front of you in your lane?
You'll become prius luggage really fast.
The steering would move just as quickly, but it would be limited to avoid terminal understeer.
I remember when my brother let me drive his older Jaguar with classic hydraulic power steering. Man, what a great feeling after so many years in boring Passat with electric power steering. I felt so connected with the road again ... got me back in time when I used to drive my old Paugeot 405. Nothing beats that feeling of real mechanical connection between the wheels and road.
We’ve the same technology on the graders , loaders and other mining equipment. Joystick sends signals to the ecm and ecm sends the command to the solenoid
Fantastic video man, you have really mastered the formula of technical explanation intertwined with humor and entertainment. Makes it so easy to share your videos with my less technical friends to explain systems, theories, and physics.
All your non-technical friends: "oh not this guy again." 😂 Appreciate the kind words, and big thanks for sharing!
he's been this way since the begging.
@@igoldin74 I've been a subscriber for years, I just think he has honed these skills so well over this time. These newer videos are just another level of good.
@@EngineeringExplained Does the steering automatically spin back to a forward orientation? Also, if it does, how quickly/smoothly does it do it?
You hit the nail on the head as far as my concerns go. No problem with the tech; if it's fine for aviation, it's fine for automotive. As someone who likes sensitive controls (that mouse analogy was for me!) this is great. But that steering latency is unacceptable.
IF we certified the systems, and then maintained and inspected cars like airplanes I might agree, but doesn't happen in the real world. There are no inspections of any kind where I live.
You know how is it different from aviation? QA won't be the same, postmortem reviews won't be the same. Cost of repair will be similar though.
@@hallkbrdz A purely mechanical system can fail too, and given the redundancies built into drive-by-wire, the chance of catastrophic failure is arguably lower. Another advantage are the built in self-diagnostics. If the system detects a partial failure, the car could limit its top speed or even entirely refuse to be driven until the issue is fixed. Many drivers endanger everyone on the road because they can't be bothered to change completely bald tires, replace non-functional brakes, or even fix a broken steering column... if this forces them to address a dangerous problem, I'm all for it.
@@oleksandrkuzminskyi7789 I'd argue that because these systems are more advanced and electronic (I believe he mentioned this in the video) that the car could basically just refuse to drive or lower functionality if there is any sort of issue. And personally (there is no way of knowing until they become more widespread) I think that these will "eventually" become pretty affordable if more cars on the road are using this system but for now it will likely be in more high-end cars and eventually come down in price. Ideally though, in a "perfect world" the US would implement an annual or at least every 6 months mandatory inspection of all vehicles. I find it mind blowing how many people are on the road with things like non-functioning headlights, brakes, or bald tires and the list just goes on and on.
> No problem with the tech; if it's fine for aviation, it's fine for automotive. Fools rushing in as always. In aviation, systems have backups and redundancy. These over-complicated systems in cars never seem to. If one thing breaks, you're stuck (yes, I've been a victim of it). The logistics of running cables in a far larger and more complex control scheme, possibly requiring assistance due to unstable aerodynamics, also provide justification for by-wire controls where in cars, they are not. They aren't really justifiable in cars at all, not even to the extent they exist now. Just like front wheel drive, it's for the manufacturers' benefit so they can sell you cheaper stuff at a premium. They marketing department finds a way to sell it to you, make you want it and make you believe it's actually progress. Don't be a sucker.
This was solved more efficiently by the variable ratio electrically assisted steering rack some years back. It offers the security of mechanical linkage with variable ratios. And with proper ratio design it'll offer all the advantages of this system with the safety of mechanically linked failsafe. This is technology for technology's sake. The thinking is 'Can we do this?' when it should be 'Should we do this?'
Great video, as always❤
I feel like the variable steering ratio can mess with your muscle memory or your perception of how much you need to steer since its always changing, im not sure if that could be as big of a problem as i think it is but nonetheless id love to try it out
The alternative approach is to have a lower steering ratio close to the limits and a highway compartible high ratio at the center. Already used in some heavy equipment which is running steer by whire for many years now, and apparently it helps a lot wis muscle memory.
This is definitely something that happens if you’re changing the settings for different scenarios. I sometimes accidentally switch to the Sport mode in my 2015 Q50(quickest ratio), instead of the personal setting that’s one mode above it on the switch(I have this mode set to mild response, but heavier effort). I have both set to the quickest pedal response. Sometimes I find myself making corrections to avoid hitting a curb or something, and that’s when I realize what’s happened.
This variable steering ratio type is very familiar to me in the form of things like videogames and shooters. If there are people who can use mouse acceleration on snipers to get headshot after headshot, while being able to switch to close range and still keep up just fine, I think we as humans have the capability to adapt to it. It'll for sure be awkward at first, but I guarantee you'll get used to it.
@@artoriasalter482 its not like mouse acceleration, because a steering wheel is more like a graphic tablet, absolute coordinates. But I agree I'm pretty sure we can adapt and I'm pretty sure they had a rough prrof of concept to make sure of that before investing millions and millions in R & D
@@danielrose1392there is also a mechanical version already used in cars
I know Audi has had a mechanically linked adaptive steering system for a while now. It uses a strain wave gear inline with the steering column to adapt the steering ratio. Basically the motor adds steering to your steering. Nice thing of the system is that everything is mechanically coupled and if everything fails the gear is "self locking" so steering is still possible. I read a comment mentioning a system on BMWs as well. Still very interesting, was wondering when manufacturers would try steer-by-wire.
My Tesla Model 3 does this as well, the vid is BS.
BMW also offer a similar system called Active Steering and I absolutely adore it! Makes parking maneuvers much much easier.
Almost every modern car has this thats why you dont see any hydraulic fluid for the steering anymore. So completely wired like in this video is not needed Like so many other things like electric handbrake
I think your all missing the point of the video it’s about the steer by wire not the adjustable ratios. Having a steer by wire system offers so much more for engineers and is far more technical than any of these mechanical systems you mention.
@@track6631variable ratio was the only thing that's actually a feature. Weight is nice.
I used to operate a Ditch Witch R30 chain trencher. The steering was wholly hydraulic. You could keep turning the steering wheel in one direction indefinitely. This evil machine had a 30 hp Wisconsin V4 petrol engine, four-speed transmission and a chain-driven hydraulic drive system for low speed trenching work. In that mode the gearbox regulated the digging chain speed and direction. When driving on the road there was so little steering feel that it was actively dangerous to operate beyond half engine power in the highest gear ratio as the steering was so vague.
Personally, would love to try this and see what it’s like to live with. Like you said towards the end, I’m one of those who wants maximum response in controls (that mouse speed analogy was perfect) and I think I’d like this a lot. Only issue is… I can’t afford these cars 😂 Will probably be 10-15 years before it’s something I can even look for in the used market.
One other important improvement is that there's about $12,000 worth of repairs now added to your steering system for a better steering ratio
To be fair, conventional steering racks aren't too cheap either, and are a common failure point already. As long as the motors can be purchased individually i can't see it being THAT bad.
Actually this has the potential to be cheaper, with sensors and motors being easier to replace piece by piece than parts of a steering rack. Also, its a lexus, it doesn't break that much.
@@seemslegit6203 the accessibility isn't what is driving the price of repair. Mass produced assemblies of one metal are easier to source, not as many unique elements to produce and can be made by third-party manufacturers. In theory a MacBook could be repaired easily on a component level but somehow Apple do not allow such repairs and isn't selling you any parts to do it. I suspect car manufacturers will adopt a similar strategy.
a better steering ratio would likely just be a few variables changed in the software. though you might have to hack it to do that.
You can partly address the variable steering ratio issue with variable artificial rotation force. Higher speed, stiffer steering. That intuitively means lesser rotation at high speeds.
It might be worth mentioning that BMW, pioneered, variable ratio steering in passenger cars about 20 years ago in the 5 Series.
I think that if this matures a bit and solves the lag you mentioned it should sooner or later get some "modes" available to the user. Let people with twitchy hands who don't like sensitive controls select a more dull setting while people who like things to be very sensitive select a sharper setting. Have it in three steps like "calm-normal-sharp" or somethign like that and let the user chose which they like best. Each setting will still have the curve of steering ratio change with speed, just the whole curve moved up or down a bit.
The lower sensitivity settings wouldn't work on the yoke wheel as it stands. The limited turning arc of the yoke sets a lower limit on the sensitivity since going lower would prevent you from turning the tires all the way before you hit the wheel locks, this is why low ratio wheels spin over 800 degrees. At highway speeds they can lower it because you don't need to full steer, but at low speeds not full steering would make 3 point turns impossible. This could be fixed with variable wheel locks but that just adds to the cost and complexity just so people who don't like the high sensitivity can be mad at spinning the yoke instead (see tesla). If you want high sensitivity buy the yoke, if you don't buy the wheel, these are already two very different customer bases so just sell them different cars no need to introduce settings. Note: non-linear steering ratios could also make the yoke work but if the problem is people not liking high sensitivities then they are going to hate ones that change sensitivity as you spin the yoke. This could also introduce more processing delay which is already an issue.
@@Valentine570 this wouldn't be a problem if they didn't have to get rid of the good old-fashioned wheel and replace it with a yoke. The way most steering wheels are designed they have a yolk in the middle surrounded by the wheel. A lot of times I am hanging onto the side of the steering wheel as if it were a yoke but it is nice to have the rest of the wheel there. I think that would be the hardest part to get used to for me is not having an entire steering wheel. I kind of see the problem as trying to reinvent the wheel but having a hard time matching it.
Just more (and expensive) things to break. Also, driving is more fun when you can hold at the 12 o'clock position and lift your index finger when you drive past a friend. There's no way to hang your arm out the window either. I'm good with the rack and pinion.
@@Valentine570 You are right that decreasing the sensitivity on the whole curve at all speeds would result in either more angle required on the steering input or less angle available at the wheels for very low speed. What you could do instead is have the low speed end of the curve fixed (nobody thinks a car steering is too twitchy at parking lot speeds unless it is someone who should never hold a license) and change how steeply the curve curves towards the higher speed. The dullest setting still needs to pass the moose test or what its called and the sharpest can be like F1 if someone wants it. Also like Keith Yinger said you do not have to have the yoke with it. Just get the variable adjustable response, the easier packaging, the higher safety (no shaft to get pushed into the driver) and keep a circular wheel on it. That way you also keep it usable for someone who perhaps has medical issues with permanently holding the steering at 3 and 9. To me this looks like when the first electronic throttles came and had lag and issues with changing sensitivity based on the condition of the engine at the time. Just general teething problems. Today all cars have it no general user thinks about it. Aircraft of all sizes have full fly by wire systems and FADEC engines and nobody complains about lag or non-linear response. Cars are notoriously bad at adopting anything not at least 100 years old so I have no idea if and when this catches on. I just think that from technical point of view there is nothing preventing this from being possible and possibly quite good.
lexus loves their cars slow and unresponsive, so wont happen
Maybe I’m just getting old, but I see stuff like this and I think: that looks very expensive to repair. It would worry me to have something limit steering at speeds. Maybe there is a chance I lose control, but maybe I’m also in mortal danger and would rather push the car to the limits than die for sure by not avoiding some obstacle
in theory it's way easier to repair. It's just a couple of cables instead of a mechanical link, you can route a wire pretty easily but a steering rack requires much more disassembly
Depends on if the design goal is to make repair harder. Yanking out a couple motor and wire is much easier than yanking out the shaft. You can design access panel for the motor and make quick disconnect connectors for the cable. Ultimately, control by wire is better than direct linkage control as computers are better at smoothing out many of the undesirable feedbacks. However company will not act on good faith and everything will be insanely lock down. Motor will have unique id and drm. Cable will be soldered/welded/whatever bs. The software will have bugs that will never get fixed. And probably 50 thousands different issue. Throw in subscription bs on top of all that. But it is not like we not have the same issue with traditional car anyways. R2R and related legislation on top of actual enforcement, along side actual punishment is what we need.
I don’t think Toyota would introduce a technology that’s new that they believe wouldn’t work in the long run. Remember, this is Toyota, not BMW or Benz. The Germans introduce gimmicky technology that’s not reliable and well known to be expensive to repair.
@@kevinyu9645 if they don’t lock the software down, yeah it’d be a straight forward cheap repair. That’s why right to repair matters.
It’s a Lexus. It won’t need repair for hundreds of thousands of miles.
Your steer by wire subscription has expired, please purchase to continue steering.
Soon we are going to research about input lag in car reviews like how we do it for monitor/TV reviews. And BMW and Mercedes gonna have monthly subscription package for drivers if they want better vibration feedback from the steering. Also one more piece of complex electronics with expansive replacement.
A factor I wish was discussed more is the added cost of these increasingly complex systems, and their redundancies, for nearly imperceptible differences. Including life expectancy. Seems like many of these systems costs to repair will be more than the value of the vehicle after the car gets just a few years on it. For those of us that don't want to have large car payments, that is a real problem.
This is a case where it might be less costly both upfront and for a repair. But the end result depends on how reliable is ends up being. Two cheaper repairs can still cost more than one and one is of course more than none.
@@kamX-rz4uy No, it will be more expensive. Because the normal system is a giant steel rod. That can only break in an accident, and in that case the car is totaled anyway. And the steer assistant is the exact same, but with no redundancy, so much, much cheaper. Not to mention, a lot of turn assist systems are hydraulic and have no actual electronics on them.
This is a really good point. Cars are getting so needlessly complicated these days, and for what? What's the point. Cars work just fine. We don't need to reinvent steering systems and brake systems and drive up the cost of the vehicle. I think it might even be just a selling point so they can charge you more for it. In a world where you need a car to survive (with the way our cities are designed), cars should not be so expensive. And they should be getting *more* intuitive, not less.
Cars are way more reliable now than 30 years ago thanks to electronic systems. even the last 10 years with electronic power steering becoming the norm. leaky fluid power steering is a thing of the past. it has actually mechanically simplified steering on cars. no more power steering pump on the motor, pipes and lines. As for this new steer by wire system, i'm not totally sold on its functionality, but I guarantee its way more reliably then some early 2000s fluid power steering car. its just 2 electric motors
@@kamX-rz4uyno way possible this will be less expensive
Feedback is important to me more as a matter of safety than fun. If I’m losing any traction, I want to feel that immediately.
Less than 3 minutes into the video and he has already explained that you still get feedback
@@WyattUTFT Yes, and he also emphasized that he liked having feedback because it's more fun without mentioning anything about safety. You've just completely missed the point of my comment.
the limiting of control seems to me like flight envelope protection on flybywire aircraft where the controls limit you so you cant stall the plane but still be able to have control. similarly this system would hopefully only limit steering inputs that would certainly cause a spin or a loss of control. but if this is the case car manufacturers like in aircraft need to provide some way to turn this system off when you need it so the steering inputs become direct when the system doesnt have the neccecary data to know what will cause a loss of control (like in airbus aircraft normal- and direct law).
In aviation a 5ms polling rate is pretty standard for fly by wire systems. POI or pilot induced oscillation is something we always worry about and test for and can happen when a pilot makes an adjustment does not see the response they want and makes a second adjustment before the first correction makes it through the system. This will cause an over correction necessitating a correction in the opposite direction. In the worst case these get bigger and bigger until catastrophic failure.
I hope this means vehicles will finally give us the ability to shift the steering wheel's position and orientation more freely than in linked system. Because the "good" old Rotate-15-degrees-up-and-down and Move-wheel-10-cm-forward is JUST. NOT. ENOUGH. I'm speaking from a tall person perspective (6.4") and I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS prefer to drive a car that allows me to orient the steering wheel in a way that doesn't hurt my knees and my back.
As someone who's a similar height, that would be wonderful. I have long legs and short arms lol, I want the steering wheel to come out further and give me a better angle. Nothing too 'extreme' - ie. you can't make it like a bus steering wheel due to teh air bag
Yup, and dropping the seat all the way down isn't really a solution either.
Yeah cars arent made for anyone over 6,2 really. At 6,4 you fit in trucks
@@breakupgoogle I'm 6'2". Cars aren't made for me either. Trucks aren't really any better for ergonomics. The leg room isn't usually the issue, as much as steering wheel placement.
I think you'll appreciate this system. For added context, watch the video at 8:45, as I transition to the next shot. You'll notice the yoke is physically mounted significantly higher (they also move up the dash information). Really helps with legroom. I'm 6'1" and wasn't close to it.
0:01 THE LAG OF THIS STEERING WHEEL, jesus this is so bad !!!!
Why not have both SBW and Hydrologic/electronic assisted steering that engages at the desire of the driver (while stopped) or when the electronic steering fails? Seems the best of both worlds and not overly complex since steering columns are standard, usually with electronic assistance anyways.
This opens up huge possibilities for future backseat drivers!
As someone currently working in an engineering team converting a vehicle to have the steering wheel on the other side, this would be amazing. Probably opens up new possibilities for Frunk space. Probabyl also helps in crash wioth even less chance of steering wheel punch in. Probably helps on platform design too, you can have the same "skate" architecture on EVs on many differnt vehicles with exactly the same rack, and just drop on what ever cab you want, with what ever wheel and feeling you want.
Look up Canoo vehicles, if you don't already know of them. Steer-by-wire is built into that vehicle design for all the reasons you mention. (Quite interesting vehicle, too.) I've been wondering how they got that past the regulators, but this video touches on that - Canoo is probably similar.
The first drive by wire factory car was sold in the 1980’s and in the 1990’s so he is wrong..
I remember putting a quick ratio steering wheel on my S13 back in the day and the first time I drove it afterward I nearly steering into the curb when turning. After a few minutes of driving my mind got around the quicker ratio and I was able to have much more control over correcting oversteer, one of the best upgrades I made to that car besides the SR20DET. As long as the steering is progressive according to vehicle velocity and acceleration a yoke would be awesome!
Neat, thanks for sharing! Yes, it'd definitely allow for correcting faster, I think in many cases folks would overcorrect until they're used to it.
the same configuration with a backup battery is in place at the automatic transmission gear select. i once had a shot main battery which disabled also my transmission backup battery and the car did not shift anymore. I dont want to imagine this happening to my steering.
Im fine with steer by wire.. but give me a damn round wheel so im not forced to have my hands planted on the sides of a yolk, sometimes it nice to be able to rest your hands in different position on long drives and still be able to keep a grip on the wheel.
The jerking at high speed thing might be a safety feature, if you are going 150Km/H and jerk the steering wheel you *might* be swerving to avoid something and if it ignores your input then you hit that something and most likely die. If it takes your input somewhat into account and you sustain it then it swerves, and you spin and most likely don't die.
Agreed 100%. I cannot mention how many times I have faced that exact situation in my driving life and avoided an accident by quick jerking action.
What if you need to Swever like for debris or on a race track?
yea i can see NHTSA and IIHS taking issue with this
Just because you turned the wheel instantly, it doesn't mean you did it in the most optimal way. Most people most likely understeer wasting valuable steering capability. You could also make the argument that steer by wire can be tuned to allow that initial emergency swerve, maximizing the tire's traction capability, and then automatically countersteer if needed. This reduces/eliminates the pendulum effect. So in this sense driving by wire is actually safer. We already have systems to smoothen and correct our driving when we accidentally overcorrect. ABS, stability control, traction control, and corner braking systems. They all work seamlessly fantastic for everyday driving. Why not apply the same concept to steering?
@@barcotics1880 explain ABS and crumple zones. Proposal to NHSTA/IIHS: "Cars will stop better by reducing the amount of braking" "cars will be safer being built from aluminum instead of steel and we'll make them more crushable too"
I think variable steering ratio is dangerous because your muscle memory will most of the time be wrong about how much the car will be steered by a certain amount of steering wheel rotation and i can't really come up with a good solution, as always you have to compromise. The only good thing to come out of steer by wire would be independent steering for the left and right wheel to accommodate for the different slip angles they'll have under different load and traction situations.
As mentioned in video steering ratios increase or decrease gradually.
@@trappedmoss1172 changes nothing
I used to hate throttle by wire because of the delay. It's actually helped me become a more patient driver and better at predicting traffic flow. Because of the delay, I have to anticipate traffic flow a bit better for a smooth driving experience. I like it now.
Sorry but you're coping, it's a serious downgrade that only exist to increase manufacturers profit margins. People need to stop accepting to be f'd in the ass by car manufacturers. It's becoming close to Stockholm syndrome its that bad.
I've gotta say, you did a really good job seeking this tech. Did the steering response ever get sorted out in the production cars? Did tesla manage to fix their version of the yoke in their truck?
I'm curious how it'll do on a moose test. Between the delay and the variable steering ratio, it might create some interesting results.
I'd be dead if I was driving that car when a moose charged me from a snowbank at 3 am in Northern Ontario in December 2019. I snapped my Jetta into the oncoming lane and barely avoided 1,400 lbs of bones, antlers and meat standing 8 ft tall at the shoulder. So, no, I'd never buy a car with decreased ratio steering in Canada, because of the wildlife.
@@beyondwhatisknown You wouldn’t. Yes, the car will optimize steering for the most performance possible, so if you throw the wheel to one side fully, it should move the car to the maximum extend that will result in the largest change in direction. That’s not necessarily to the full extend that the wheel could turn, because doing this could cause skidding which actually decreases the amount of direction change. This might surprise you, but steer-by-wire is actually used somewhere else, where instant maneuverability is just as important as precise fine controls. Fighter jets, where switching from steady precise flight to literally neck snapping maneuvers is a matter of life and death. You can have precise controls, while still being able to maximally control your vehicle.
It will perform the way it is configured. It is just a two servos with a PID controller in between
@@Eugensson How? There is a noticeable delay in the video. Watching him quickly turn the wheel from side to side on the road did not give me confidence that it would do well on a moose test.
I think the moose test may be inherently different nowadays with the introduction of automated braking and other safety features outside of the steering column change. But, it's an interesting question nonetheless.
Looks like it would limit your ability to do emergency maneuvers at higher speeds.
Exactly. This seems like the biggest issue.
I don't see why, the ratio at high speeds is going to be about what it is for a conventional setup. The difference is at slow speed and it's better since you don't have turn the yoke as far as a wheel. That's the problem with the Tesla yoke, it's terrible at slower speeds.
Why? At a certain steering angle, you're just going to understeer regardless. And this will be quicker to act than fully rotating a mechanical system 360 degrees.
Very Common In Modern Aircraft. Fly By Wire as it is called. Intresting to see this implemented in vehicles.
I hope they either eliminate that delay or have a software measure to supress user induced oscilations, otherwise bad things could happen. Well they probably have in software measures well figured out, since aircraft ran into and solved this problem half a century ago
Great explanation on what the driver will feel with drive by wire and why! I always thought drive by wire was just another step towards autonomous driving.
Biggest issue is the variable ratio, if it's not consistent you can't rely on muscle memory in split second decisions and that makes it unsafe. Not having driven it at least that's what I imagine. The fact that you have to turn a Tesla yoke almost 3 times without the top bit is just mind boggling...
I tend to strongly agree with this statement. Muscle memory accumulated over decades is something you don’t mess with. This is vital safety concern. I love idea of drive/brake/steer by wire but algorithms have to be much more researched. I would start static 2 stage presets. One for parking and slow driving and other for highway speed. Nothing between or logarithmic.
Great point.
The muscle memory you have from your current car doesn't apply, but the muscle memory you accumulate with variable ratio would apply. Porsche has variable rear wheel steering in some of their cars that alter the way the car steers based on speed and owners of those cars aren't having issues with split second decisions.
Yup. One time driving my Honda to work a 2x4 flew off the back of a pickup truck. Didn't think, just checked my blind spot as fast as I could and swerved out of the way. If I did that in this car I would've put it into a wall.
Variable steering ratio racks are very common today that do the same thing without drive by wire. But otherwise i am with you all, i am not a huge fan of the variety, it never seems 100% intuitive to me and took me a long time to get used to
I was initially against this, but as a tall person the benefits are intriguing if it is properly designed and we get proper feedback on the wheel. It would also be nice to have failsafes.
Thanks for the info. Something to think about when buying my next car. Not worried about steer by wire, airbus planes are steer by wire. I steer very fast, i really don’t like the delay.
Would be interesting to see how steer by wire reacts to the moose test. Would it fail because of the delay ? And hit the cones…
I was thinking the same
Yes, and Jason just gave us nanny driving scenarios. As we all know - nannas already have a delay in their reaction and would probably fail the cones as well. All in all - we have to see to be able to judge.
The WHAT test? 🤣
@@sergarlantyrell7847 Don't make me google it for you
@@1995blooper I'd already looked it up... Just trying to convey how rediculous that sounds to someone not from Canada.
A steering wheel with latency, just what the world needs
Lag, not latency it corrects the driver !
@@lucasRem-ku6eb It is latency. Latency definition: the delay before a transfer of data begins following an instruction for its transfer.
Gamer lag will now approach the top ten lists of IRL deaths.
@@FlaminRing I meant LAG, i ratter have 1080p then 4k, only to get better direct response. So you get the force feedback from the game, and the graphics later !
@@ZeroHourProductions407 he does not understand it, not on science levels....
Id like to see how this performs in crash avoidance scenarios compared to direct linkage
I feel as long as this system has good tuning, and the operator can adjust whether the steering is constantly a single ratio, or if it fluctuates will play a heavy part in its downfall or success.
Yeah, the first concern I'd have is emergency maneuvers at high speed. I want that input immediate and linear.
It's pretty cool to see them R&Ding this and putting it into production as it will get better with age and competition. My biggest concern is this must be doubling or tripling the cost of this sub-system? Also, we're really good at creating mechanical variable ratio things in general. Current variable ratio steering is really nice (my Audi S3 has it, works great), I'm willing to bet they can create a mechanical way to do this without losing the direct linkage from the steering wheel. Because when you think about it, you don't need the ratio to be infinitely variable, that's way overkill.
this is a really cool concept, but I cant see passed the many more things that could break or malfunction. At least when the power steering function in traditional setups fail, you can still control the car (with more effort of course lol)
The steering lag would bug me so much.
I'd like to see options on the sensitivity and response with all these electric systems. Have a chill mode that's more for long relaxed driving. Throttle response and steering ratio would be more in line with that style. Ie slower response more traction control and more assistance. Then an in the middle mode that raises the response, then finally have a sport/race mode that would give max response and max sensitivity. Then also the option to create profiles where you can adjust it to your liking. Have everything on a slider and the ability for you to pick the values of everything.
My Q50 has almost everything you described here (minus sliders for adjustments). It has three different settings for the weight of the wheel and three for steering response. It also varies automatically depending on speed. It's not perfect, but the ability to adjust the steering feel is nice.
This sounds highly influenced by Tesla's software
@@somerandomguy5707 kinda but I was thinking more along the lines of gaming keyboards and gaming mice. If I can customize my mouse and keyboard to my liking why can I customize my cars settings?
@@dimetime35c I agree, if they found a way to increase response time between the wheels and kept the steering ratio low it would make for a nice "Sport / track mode", then a slower one for driving through town like a comfort mode. Everything is electronic so I'm sure it could be implemented with some R&D.
It would be interesting to see (in a large empty space, done safely) keeping a constant steering lock, and varying the sharpness of the turn by changing the speed. Also, I wonder if they implement variable steering angles based on the amount of lock used (at a given speed). i.e. small movements to the yoke translate to small movement of the wheels, but as you approach full lock, the wheels turn at a faster rate. The idea is again to increase stability at high speeds, or accuracy when normal driving, but still allowing large movements of the wheels from a relatively limited amount of throw of the steering wheel/yoke in case of emergency or to make tight manoeuvers.
this would be an awesome engineering test
I'm mixed, it sounds cool, but I like things that feel more analog. I'm def a lower sensitivity person. But I think with some time I can get used to it. That latency issues needs to be addressed though, I am fairly sensitive to that level of delay so it'll probably feel really clunky. Like it's not on the level of nearly imperceptible, you can see it visually. Edit: on a side note if we ever get flying cars this would be the preferred method. Probably won't see that in my lifetime though.
I am a petrolhead who likes good steering response and feeling etc. but I like what I see here. I love smooth and refined driving in a daily driver and this seems very refined (when taken care of the flaws, of course).
The repair costs for this system shortly after the warranty ends will be staggering. In my steering shaft system if I lose my pump I can still get home and fix it. I also can turn it with the engine off if I need to tow it onto a wrecker. With this system there are too many complex components made by the lowest bidder in a foreign country. The failure of any one of them force you to the side of the road waiting for a tow at the best. Also a terrible idea to hand over yet another function to a computer. Just wait for this to get hacked. The minimal gains are grossly outweighed by the fiscal impact it will have on the unlucky ones who purchase it. Unless Lexus will warranty this system for 25 years nobody should be willing to buy it.
Yep this is common sense
My main concern is in the worse case scenario. many years later when a technician is trying to push the vehicle in when it has all power loss or faulty control modules the lack of a physical connection could be a issue
Exactly... If the battery of my car dies I can drive the car... Believe me... It happened with my old V70 during a Sunday night (I remember that because there was Noone to be called), the battery had an issue coming back from and old travel and we had to turn everything off to save every bit of charge... And the steering wheel was so hard...
It's almost as if you didn't retain the information in the video. It's 6:45 in, since you clearly need a refresher.
what if all those 3 fail?@@Ijuststopthepucksbro