Veganism, Atheism and Morality | Cosmic Skeptic | Modern Wisdom Podcast 103
Alex O'Connor aka Cosmic Skeptic is a KZheadr and Student at Oxford University.
How many people go vegan due to a philosophical debate? And how many actively try to get the fans of their KZhead Channel to talk them out of it? Alex is one person on that list.
Expect to learn the one philosophical question which Alex has trouble justifying, Alex's reasons for going vegan, whether he thinks that a less religious society has problems with morality and how religions relate to social cohesion.
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when you were talking about animal depression, many animals can have emotional responses to a tragedy, even die, and can experience massive ammounts of stress that can also have many implications
Yes you are right. I think most are still in the unknown about animal cognition and what is going on and apparently just assune the can feel pleasure and pain in a rudimentary sense. I am sure for some animals that might be true if we talk about animals in terms of how they are classed biologicaly. Some multicellualr organisms are also classified as animals but obviously that is not the class of interest ln this topic.
I love how hilarious and open this conversation was.
Thanks Peter, Alex is a great guest. Superbly easy to speak to!
I have to say I am pleasantly surprised. Not about Alex he is superb as always, but mor about the host how he really engages asks the question and then thinks about what his response is and what it means etc. So well done and I hope that you go further into this topic.
The environmental reasons are definitely the main reason they go “vegan” but Veganism is about the ethics of animal liberation. I’d say they are plant-based
@15:54 Alex is so cool that he can refer to Peter Singer by his first name alone that's crazy edit: just realized he said PETA...british accent confusing
Damned southerners
I believe he is referring to PETA (the animal rights organisation)
lol that was cute!
One thing you could say of Alex is that he by far morally superior to most people. He's kind of an atheist saint in the making and I think we all should respect that.
Home boy analysed the morality of accidentally receiving cheesy chips
If you cared about the torture of female cows then it would be a huge moral dilemma for you.
Home boy sure did. I don't mind.
Alex= Vegan superhero with awesome articulate powers 💥 #Vegan #Veganism 🌱🌱🌱
As a vegan for the last 38 years - over half my life - I am not a vegan due to philosophy but due to suffering - perhaps that is why I have found it so easy to stay a vegan. Never lapsed, I suppose because pain and fear is so abhorrent to me; why would I contemplate putting another being through what I would be unable to bear? Equally I am so distressed to see human beings actually 'enjoying' (for some do) making the animals suffer and fear humans even more. As to Alex and eating the cheese on the chips. I've only ever eaten an animal product by mistake twice....and it tasted disgusting! One mouthful was more than enough to make me know what I was eating was a piece of an animal and stopped. IF Alex stays a vegan (he's only been one 4-5 months he says) he'll find the smell and taste disgusting. Alex's reason for eating the chips with cheese was because the food would have been thrown away. Would he have felt the same if he found a piece of hair or toenail in the food or would he find it so disgusting he'd stop? Or how about tiny bits of flaked desiccated dog or cat flesh? As veganism grows on Alex he may take the stance Ed or I would. We shall see. I hope so.
If suffering really is your driving factor, find out where the cobalt in your laptop/phone come from. You should consider not using a cellphone. kzhead.info/sun/dKVvctKhq5mag3A/bejne.html
@@christopherpierson7042 Your claim seems to be that purchasing a cellphone would lead to increased suffering. Can you demonstrate this?
I went atheist first then vegan. Gotta be consistent in actions and beliefs or at least as best as we can
so what about the plants.
Consistently impressive content on Modern Wisdom! Love this podcast/ channel. Also checking out Cosmic Skeptic.
This made me subscribe. Great conversation.
Damn, I wish I were this intelligent.
i've been trying to read cosmicskeptic's book recommendations in the hopes of being smarter like him but i read too damned slowly and get distracted too easily.
@@drefloresca95 Same here, I'm trying to study philosophy, but keep getting distracted.
@@drefloresca95 fun fact: Alex, himself, admitted that he is a slow reader and doesn't like the process of reading. He isn't ashamed of it. He still doesn't give up. So I hope it gives you hope. Just keep going on and you can do it!
i dislike cosmic skeptic, but i have a lot of respect for his practical veganism (the suffering is already done)
@Modern Wisdom do u consider going vegan?
I do after this discussion yes!
Modern Wisdom thats so great😊 good luck and keep us updated😁 btw keep on the good work🔥😊
@@ChrisWillx any updates on making the shift to veganism?
@@ChrisWillx Please check out DOMINION and HOW NOT TO DIE lecture by Dr Greger. Both videos are found right here on KZhead for free!
@@ChrisWillx status?
When I was younger I used to struggle with these moral questions but as I got older I've become more disenfranchised from most of these ideas? Kinda like "what about the universe where Hitler cured cancer? ", "don't think it about it Morty!"
I love Alex but he is exemplifying what SPECIESISM is here when he says he would still eat the non vegan food. I think he has since evolved and changed his view and stance. I would like an update video 👏
lol no that’s not speciesism, that’s juste a person who acts according to utility, not out of principle (deontology). I prefer the former as well, otherwise you end up in wishy-washy meta-physical territory.
It's interesting how veganism takes on characteristics similar to religiosity. It certainly offers a moral stance and often morphs into moral superiority. Humanity certainly seems magnetized to religious thought... Often being very passionate. The philosophy of Buddhism has a way of sanding down acute passions.
I think passion is quite a useful thing sometimes
@@S.D.323 ...having a reputation toward extremes. It's often a beloved state of mind in teens.
You don't drink coffee? Where do you get your water from?
Nice
Thank you. I enjoy this so much.
1:03:42 This is the moment Alex turned into Jordan Peterson.
Yeah I don’t think it is a problem of religion but a loss of community
The answer to the question of why everyone should be moral is that it would minimize suffering.
But why should we minimize suffering?
@@guy-iw2qh Even if you have no empathy for others, living in a world in which actions are widely based on empathy would benefit everyone, including those without empathy. Look to the Categorical Imperative by Kant to see why you should too.
@@someguy2135 I don't doubt that. But my question would be, why should we benefit everyone? why should we minimize suffering?
@@guy-iw2qh Are you familiar with the Categorical Imperative?
@@guy-iw2qh You don't want to suffer do you? You aren't a masochist?
But wouldn't it be more beneficial for the animals if we simply stop their suffering?? If animal product consumers decided to only eat cruelty free animal products we would be able to force the companies to change their methods and lessen the amount of suffering
It’s just not possible unfortunately
Not quite. First, cruelty-free products aren't necessarily cruelty-free. Often times, the labels permit some cruelty under a certain threshold, i.e.free range cows can be considered "free range/cruelty free" if they are outside for x number of days, the rest of the days they can get locked up in cages and be devoid of a meaningful existence. Second, often times the mere existence of these animals or animal products is cruelty. For example, wild hens lay about 30 or so eggs a year, while domestic hens lay about 300 a year. For the domestic hen, the very act of laying eggs causes their bones to break due to low calcium after laying so many eggs, leaving them incapacitated. By demanding eggs, you would be demanding the birth of these animals whose very existence is suffering for them. So no, cruelty free products are not a compromise. Going vegan is the solution.
When Alex says "agriculture" he means "animal agriculture."
I would say that it's more so the ability to perceive the state something is in is what brings on consciousness and therefore suffering, if an individual is in eminence pain but has no perception of the pain, morally, there has been no damage, hitting your computer wont lead it to resent you because your computer is not conscious(given your computer could feel things physically), however hitting a cow would be morally wrong as the individual is able to understand the nature of its circumstance. If cows could not feel pain, sadness, empathy and depression there would be nothing wrong with using them as biological machines as we do...
This brings up the bug dilemma. Some believe that bugs dont feel pain as we can, Does this make it ok to stamp on bugs for pleasure ?
@@Yameen200 the same has been said of fish. I know personally I don't give bugs the same agency I give other creatures for a few reasons, even so that doesn't mean that I can experience things as a bug so my understanding of what they feel is vastly limited. In the end what value does being alive hold
@@Happyisboss Humans are bias towards different species. We value them differently. We care most about pets dogs cats & less about other creatures wild or domestic but with the vegan issue people say its a emotional bias becoz we feel sorry for the cute farm animals but if it were snakes & bugs being farmed vegans would not be so fiery. Much lesser people would feel bad coz ppl see snake as evil predator without feeling.
they eat plants. they see and feel stimulus.. @@Yameen200
The animals share with us the privilege of having a soul Alas, what wickedness to swallow flesh into our own flesh, to fatten our greedy bodies by cramming in other bodies, to have one living creature fed by the death of another! In the midst of such wealth as earth, the best of mothers, provides, yet nothing satisfies you, but to behave like the Cyclopes, inflicting sorry wounds with cruel teeth! You cannot appease the hungry cravings of your wicked, gluttonous stomachs except by destroying some other life. Pythagoras
so plants arent ALIVE?
@@rohanking12able Is there any use in replying to a comment such as this where animals are equated to plants? I think not.
31:39
I knew at 5 it was wrong for me to eat animals, I knew that it wasn’t in balance with the earth, if we were smarter, or more able, or at the top then we should know better than to hurt them, no of it seemed right. Pretty sure at 5 I wasn’t indoctrinated in any religion. I have always been about the simple truth and living simply. Of course I’ve lived my life and now that I’m 55 I can say I stopped eating animals at 13 and ever looked back
I look up to u
why do plants not matter?
Most of the protein in plants isn't accessible to humans because we are not ruminants. Human digestive systems cannot breakdown cellulose.
Rubbish. Please do your research before spouting nonsense and please back your claims with citations. The world’s record breaking strongman Patrik Baboumian is vegan.
Love the video but at around 50:00 Alex argues that the religion has to overcome the same hurdle that atheists do when examining why they have to be moral. He says that it’s still to do with minimising suffering if your reasoning is to avoid hell. Surely religious people would believe that good and evil are tangible objective things that exist in the universe. So when god says something is wrong it’s as true as any other statement he’d make, it’s true because these are the conditions god has laid out for us more than it’s true because god subscribes to a utilitarian view of ethics. So certain actions from a religious point of view are evil for the same reasons why solid is harder than liquid and not something that’s true because god believes in a set of principles that necessitate his commandments. He then says that commands can’t have truth value but the statement “killing is evil” does have truth value if you’re religious. So in the same way an atheist would root their morality on the subjective truth of suffering and extrapolate from that the necessity to prevent it, someone who’s religious would root their morality on the objectivity of the word of good that evil must be avoided
How cringe, small parts of this video look when you think of Alex, now that he is not a practicing vegan
If we are so bloody marvellous, and have a moral compass, why are we so blind to causing such misery, suffering and slaughter to 70 Billion (excluding fishes) animals a year? To actually cause this to other beings how on earth can we claim to be moral. The more we know what we are doing proves, to me at least, that we are totally and utterly amoral and immoral. Perhaps our ignorance is bliss.
sometimes when times are realy hard i wish to not know the things i know just to live a happy day without knowing about all the suffering
@@dodumichalcevski Of course I agree but we do know and if we are suffering for the animals I just remind myself that compared to the animals ........their suffering is beyond anything, absolutely anything I WILL EVER SUFFER.
@@dodumichalcevski I understand that but its better to know than not to
who is we?
It's the "i don't kill them I just eat them after they are already dead" which gets me. I think this is the key reason most people don't turn vegan. It certainly is for me. And technically if they have died of natural causes then it would not be immoral to eat them after. Although eating a human after they are dead would be considered by most people??
Chicken deppression.. i certainly believe plenty of animals have the required social awareness to feel the loss of an animal family/friend. Look at dogs, monkeys or even some nature program of a mothers instincts to protect a newly born child and how they feel when it gets eaten by a predator.
Daniel Turner nah man you got to remember that's only here in America maybe even Canada but in the rest of the world everybody still kills for their meal.. in my country Dominican Republic my family still kills animals to eat and they're not even poor they lived in a good area
Daniel Turner when a chicken Caesar mother chicken. I am not sure if they're aware if that's their brother or sister nor do I know if the chicken cares about that.. but they do have a reaction perhaps they're afraid for their own life... I feel chicken depression is a real thing I just can't possibly wrap my mind around how would a chicken perceive things...
@@justhereforthemoment4001 Chickens are exceptionally social animals. Of course they have friends and care about those they care about. They get depressed when their best friends disappear never to come back again. Please watch DOMINION on youtube.
AnimalsAre BeautifulPeople I understand what you're saying and to be honest I've already went vegan... but I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that proves that chickens have best friends... chicken depression is real but sadness is a basic emotion I assume that animals can feel sadness and happiness but that does not prove that they can feel complex emotions like specific emotions towards a specific animal.... but I assume that they are more capable of these complex emotions then vegetables so I prefer to eat vegetables
P.S. Here's the answer to the question, "Why should I be moral?": God/ Love. Important to recognize the difference between God and religion. Like everything that humans touch, religion has equal potential for good and bad, depending on whose wielding the power. Religion starts out as a set of rules to help people follow a moral pathway to God. It seems invariably to get bastardized by sick, authoritarian power grabbing control freaks for hegemonic purposes. Everyone should, therefore, be skeptical of their religion, but that in no way negates the existence of a creator. That fear you saw, Alex, in the eyes of the cat about to be hit by the bus and the connection you made to the absolute terror sentient animals feel when their lives are threatened is all the proof I need that you are no cosmic accident.
If God is a creator then he can be loving but he cant BE love so it doesnt make sense to put a slash between those words as if theyre the same thing
But what about pets what do we feed them ?
Both dogs and cats can thrive on a plant based diet. The longest lived cat was plant based
Confusing categories. Consuming animals is not a moral issue, it is a biological nutritional issue. If you are going to be morally consistent thing no animals to consume another.
how is it not a moral issue
and the plants are guilty?@@melanshia
Are you sure that if everybody went vegan this wouldn't affect the environment negatively as well? If everyone went vegan we would need a lot more Farms to grow vegetables.. we would be displacing a lot of animals.. and I've heard that the machines that till the land for these vegetables accidentally kill animals that are under the dirt.. how much water would it take to grow all of these vegetables and fruits?
madeline you do understand that the types of foods that those animals eat is not the type of food that we can actually survive off of.. the food we feed our food is cheaper and easier to grow then the vegetables and fruits that we actually eat... I don't really believe they'll ever be a time where everyone is vegan some people will always see it differently..
Animals eat plants as well. If we first feed animals a lot of plants to then eat the animals, a lot more plants will have to be grown. There are plenty of studies out there that say that the amount of land that we need to produce our food will greatly be reduced if the world became more plant based
@@justhereforthemoment4001 They eat a whole lot of grain, corn and soy. All of which we can eat just fine. 90% of all soy produced in the amazon rainforest is fed to livestock. With all the grain that is being fed in the us alone we could feed around 150 million people a year
so why just animals? why not the plant?@@RubenVenema
On Veganism: What's your solution for animals who eat other animals? Lions only eat other animals. Should we destroy their ability to live, by forcing them to eat corn? How about Eagles? They eat rabbits and rodents. Should they be force fed corn, instead? How will you implement that? The whole concept of veganism because it's wrong to consume another animal is idiotic from the start, because all of nature is built on the basis that some animals will be prey, and some will be predators. Without that, the entire world will be quickly overrun with rodents, rabbits, and other prey animals. Saying we should all be vegan because of animal cruelty on factory farms is an entirely different situation, which should be addressed through the legal system. If factory farms are being cruel, there's a simple solution - make it illegal to do those things. Factory farming is not thousands of years old, it's relatively recent, and can be stopped any time Congress decides it's time to stop it. Instead of shutting down city streets and airports to try to force everyone else to stop eating meat, how about you block Congress and force Them to stop the animal cruelty? Killing animals for food is not inherently cruel. You'll have to paint a vast swath of your favorite animals as Cruel along with us, if you say it is. Polar bears, Lions, Tigers, Eagles, Foxes, and about a thousand other predators are all in the same boat. They eat meat, because that's how they live, and their bodies are meant to live on meat to be healthy. Humans & Bears are omnivores, and can survive on a variety of things to eat, but they survive & thrive best when there's meat on the menu. Even Dogs, who are also omnivores (which you use as an example of why we shouldn't hurt animals because we love dogs), would gladly rip into a large number of other animals to eat their meat, given the chance. My dogs eat nearly as much meat as I do, pound for pound, and they are happiest & healthiest when they eat meat - not that dried up dog food of corn & wheat. I'm glad you are happy with your CHOICE to become Vegan. I'm happy with my CHOICE to be an Omnivore, who eats meat as a part of my daily diet. Your Decision to change Your eating habits does Not give you the right to Dictate Mine - even if you now disapprove of my Choice. It's a Choice, Not a Dictate from on high - because you're not On High, & many Deities don't object to eating or sacrificing animals - particularly in the Western Countries. Eat what you want, Don't eat what you don't want. Believe in what you want, and don't believe in what you don't want. Just DON"T tell me what "I" must believe, or what "I" must eat - or Not eat. We'll all get along fine, then. And quit blocking the roads. That's just rude!
Animals can't morally consider their dietary choices. We can. Lions are also obligatory carnivores.
@@malnatik9 we don't need to read their minds. We've studied animal intelligence pretty extensively and some animals are super intelligent but we've not come across moral reasoning yet, maybe basic altruistic considerations aimed at tribal cohesion or something but no real reasoning If the dogs start going vegan, I'll definitely apologize for my misconceptions.
@@malnatik9 animals don't choose shit though, that's not how evolution works. Lions are obligatory carnivores because of their anatomy, not because of their strategy.
@@truthbetold8233 I suspect you have come across moral reasoning in animals before - but maybe not in a lab environment. Many animals have spared other animals that would normally have been prey animals, but for whatever reason, they voluntarily let the animal go. Sometimes it's a baby, or in trouble, but they let it go, nonetheless. Multiple Gorillas have been documented to care for human children who fell into their enclosures, & I certainly see it in my dogs. Dogs will eat rabbits, but when presented with a bunny and her babies in my back yard, they could have easily killed them all, but instead came to get me to help them. How is that any less a moral decision than if a child had come to get me to help them? My dogs are very kind, and sympathetic to the suffering of others - both animals and humans. And they make distinctions between which animals or humans deserve that sympathy. How is that not evidence of moral reasoning?
Alex. Watch out! It appears you are becoming the object of worship. How ironic is that? Be careful. They are young and impressionable. Be wary of ego aggrandizement. Young people are very susceptible to that.
Is it immoral to eat an animal that was raised in good conditions? The animal lived a long and good life
Is it immoral to pack up all the neighborhood pet dogs and cats (who couldn't have had a better life) put them in death trucks and send them to slaughterhouses where they already smell death and fear and chop off their heads one by one?
Is it immoral to kill a child if you raised them in the best conditions prior to that? If your answer to this is yes, then you should be able to see the issue with your question.
@@Solidude4 Yeah, cause a human child and an animal has the same value. Got it..
@@user-hu3iy9gz5j Value is subjective. So yes, they can have the same value. Why should animal's lives matter less? Because you, a biased human decided it?
@@Solidude4 So if you would have to decide between rescuing a dog or a child, you would seriously say that you regard both decisions as equally moral?
Why is wrong to kill a chicken?
Have you listened to this podcast?
@@ChrisWillx is a question an answer to my Q
@@themuslimvillage3601 if you define immoral as increasing the suffering of others then killing something that can feel pain is probably the worst thing you can do apart from torture it. It would be immoral to cut the leg of a chicken and let it hop around on one leg in pain. To cut the leg from a human would be immoral so this also applies to humans. The same should apply when we decide to pick an animal out from it's daily life and end it entirely.
@@tzrner7252 its all subjective, i could not give a damn about the suffering of an animal and it automatically becomes moral for me to eat it. I could also disagree with yr definition of suffering and say the pain is not long term. Suffering to me would be an animal with a painful wound and no one there to treat it therefore suffering for a long period of time, whereas an animal i kill could be dead within seconds and therefore didnt suffer
Given that we do have the ability to do so* . If we were on the verge of starving or had no other option for food then for our own survival we would need to kill something. But we live in soceities where we don't need to kill something to survive. Surely we should let animals live a full life and not interfere.
noteworthy would be millions of frogs spawning outta thin air having one short yet intense extacy of existential questions and pure terror, before smashing into egyptian sandstone. or god created them braindead. arguably better, still of some interesting humour of seldom morbid. quite literal reading of a miracle, but if jesus didnt return, im sure jesus could also keep the wisdom n smear the myrrh into his hair for all the christian cares, who wants livin forever.
Zzz
If I was a chicken I would not want to be in a factory farm. But I would want to be in a cruelty-free farm.. I'm well taken care of fed protected from predators I live a good long life and then one day it all ends and I repay my Guardian with my body... and no I don't mean sexually..lol I just had to add the joke
madeline yes but the force breeding and things like that aren't necessary I've been to small farms in the Dominican Republic and sometimes the animals are raised very wild.. they just let nature take its course.. the only reason cruelty free Farms aren't a thing is because we're not demanding for it.. people become vegan and the Animal product companies don't listen to vegans because why would they change their product for someone that isn't going to buy their product.. but if all of the meat eaters decided I'm only going to eat meat if it comes from a cruelty-free source we can force those companies to change.. it's the meat eaters that have the real power to change these companies we just need to get the majority on board
madeline the last sing you said about it taking the toll on the environment is simply not true.. because truly 100% cruelty free Farms would have to produce Les animals in order to give them more space.. the amount of total animal products being made would go down people would just eat those products less.. so now imagine if every meat eater starts eating half the amount of meat they used to.. and the only buy cruelty-free meat. suffering of the animals go down total amount of animals needed goes down.. and vegans can continue doing their thing.. eventually we can have it where vegans don't eat animal products and some people do eat animal products but nobody eats cruelty derived animal products.. and that's a goal we can actually reach
i wouldn't. i would opt out of being. imagine having to lay an egg every other day instead of just 10 a year as is natural.
@@justhereforthemoment4001 it's not a fucking joke mate
I don't know about you, but if I were a chicken I'd want to be in a sanctuary. You know, not worry about dying in the end at the hands of my caretaker. Not to mention, cruelty-free farms are generally not cruelty-free. Also, would you say the same about dogs? Should we be going out there killing old dogs when they run out of their usefulness or would you want a natural death for them?
Haha this Atheists always go back to the Bible, Genesis 1:29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. Now you can ground your beliefs 😀
I’m not sure what’s going on here, but that quote is lovely
Do atheists know that God gives them evidence of His existence? He says "The heavens keep telling the wonders of God, and the skies declare what he has done". He also says that nature shows His design, and He has shown us in ourselves that He exists, and that we are without excuse if we say He is not real.
What about chicken depression though?
@@ChrisWillx Do you struggle with depression?
Nature shows his design?Why do we and most animals have vestigial organs then,if his so called design is perfect.God is nothing but a load of bull used to control the masses.
@@tausifkarim8861 Which vestigial organs do you mean? The tailbone? This is used for, I think, balance. And the appendix? This is also proven to be useful. What do you think happens when you die?
@@BronsonLivesHere209 There's many vestigial organs for instance your Plica Semilunaris(third eyelid) or like you said tail bone. As well as you said appendix which could do you more harm than help you (appendicitis can kill you).I don't see how creationism by a God led to this.Evolutionary explation is much more likely. Plus we have fossils to prove it. As for your last question. I don't know what happens when we die so I don't falsely assume anything.I will figure it out when I die.
Ummm... Did Alex just make the argument for killing coma patients?
the same logic people use to argue for killing animals
@@dodumichalcevski Either humans are equivalent to animals and thus have no moral reason not to eat meat, as many other animals surely do without ethical quandary. Or humans are different than most animals, able to reason for example, and thus the 'whats the difference between eating a cow and killing a human' is mute.
@@jammin4284 🤦♂️
@@dodumichalcevski solid response
@@jammin4284 solid response for a BS comment
All this moral philosophy is utterly vacuous without God. You can be the most ethical person in the world but it will never have any meaning. That's why this guy is so uninspiring. He's empty inside.
Your god’s morals are just as made up as his morals because there is no proof of god.
@@caracal4799 so you’re admitting that rationalising your way to morality is equivalent to just making them up? That sounds like an argument for God!
I think he is quite inspiring
@@josephfraseryes but it is not an argument for god at all lol because you essentially made them up too lol.
@@caracal4799 if you cannot rationalise your way to morality, then where does your sense of good/bad, right/wrong come from?
This guy isn't as logical or skeptical as he likes to believe.