The Dark Truth Dune Explained: Part 2 Tells Us About Paul (& Maybe Ourselves)
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Dune: Part 2, starring Timothée Chalamet, Zendaya, and a host of other stars, has become a huge hit - crossing $80 million in only its first weekend at the box office. It’s no surprise that people love the second installment in Denis Villeneuve's adaptation of the 1965 Frank Herbert novel given how much we all loved the first one. But Paul Atreides’ story is a lot darker than most Chosen One characters we see get the big screen treatment. So how has Paul changed in part two, and what does that mean for what’s to come in his story? (And how might audience reactions cause a bit of a problem?) Let’s dive in!
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CHAPTERS
00:00 Dune: Part 2
00:35 Paul's inner battle with his dark side
03:25 Choosing revenge over everything
04:47 thanks to Factor
05:55 Why Chani was right
06:44 He's the Chosen One, but not a hero
08:33 The films being split into parts helps tell his story
09:08 What some audiences might get wrong about his arc
10:46 What's still to come...
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Are you going to post and keep up to date posts on Spotify?
I suppose the best way to describe "Dune: part 2" is to say it was like watching "Rob Roy" on steroids and set in a fantasy or science fiction world, but still not as good a movie as the original, but only turn Luke Skywalker (Rob Roy) into Anakin Skywalker (the Mahdi of Islam). 156) Rob Roy (1995) 164) Dune: part 2 (2024) Frank Herbert gave you anti-Christ without saying it straight forward. George Lucas gave you Luke Skywalker figuring you'd like him better than Anakin and made it even less related to this world. "Dune: part 2" is worth seeing. Denis Villeneuve stayed true to the book enough, in the sense characters can see it all happening as good or bad or good and bad and yet you as the viewer or reader can make up your own mind too. In other words, do you see this hero as worth it or not worth it. It's up to you. I was surprised Denis Villeneuve in "Dune: part 1" had the Fremen call Paul the Mahdi, as that was a dead give away that this whole thing is an Islamic end times vision. Frank Herbert did not come out and say it, but while I read "Dune" as a kid I knew the whole things smelled of T. E. Lawrence of Arabia joining the Muslims in World War One to be a leader figure of the desert only this was more Anti-Christ type vision of the future. I think in that sense it stays true to what Frank Herbert said, "I am showing you the superhero syndrome and your own participation in it." - Frank Herbert, speaking about "Dune." Now I see it from Zendaya's perspective; hence, I love the ending as completely open ended as to whether they achieve or don't achieve, but that many are for it as the dye is cast and some are disbelievers of it seeing the conflict is not over nor is any success guaranteed. In that sense it was brilliant, but it didn't crack my top 100 favorites movies list. "A Princess of Mars" by writer Edgar Rice Burroughs inspired many things along with the movie adaptation of the book called "John Carter" in 2012 by Disney, such as: Star Wars, Avatar, Indiana Jones, Superman, Dune, and writer Ray Douglas Bradbury with "The Martian Chronicles," which I read as a child. Here is where such things fall on my favorite movies list: 20) Star Wars: the Empire Strikes Back (1980) 21) Star Wars: a New Hope (1977) 41) Superman II (1980) 112) John Carter (2012) 121) Avatar (2009) 125) Man of Steel (2013) 148) Star Wars: Return of the Jedi (1983) 164) Dune: part 2 (2024) 270) Dune: part 1 (2021) The main reason for me to watch Dune 2 is to see whether Zendaya Coleman surpasses female actresses I loved in the past, which I don't believe she has yet. And to see if the vision of the Mahdi in his ascension can be depicted well. Denis Villeneuve delivered. I suppose movie three will be can Islam rule well? I doubt it in reality, or for depiction in the next movie, and I doubt the 3rd movie would surpass the 2nd. Zendaya is in my top 13 favorite actors based on the list below. She is certainly doing well for her career and I'm happy for her in that sense. 10) Spiderman: No Way Home (2021) 96) The Greatest Showman (2017) 164) Dune: part 2 (2024) 191) Spiderman: Far from Home (2019) 198) Spiderman: Homecoming (2017) 270) Dune: part 1 (2021) “I loved you, so I drew these tides of men into my hands And wrote my will across the Sky and stars To earn you freedom, the seven Pillared worthy house, That your eyes might be Shining for me When we came Death seemed my servant on the Road, 'til we were near And saw you waiting: When you smiled and in sorrowful Envy he outran me And took you apart: Into his quietness Love, the way-weary, groped to your body, Our brief wage Ours for the moment Before Earth's soft hand explored your shape And the blind Worms grew fat upon Your substance Men prayed me that I set our work, The inviolate house, As a memory of you But for fit monument I shattered it, Unfinished: and now The little things creep out to patch Themselves hovels In the marred shadow Of your gift.” ― T. E. Lawrence, "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom"
People are mad at chani, but chani is literally pointing out what the author was saying the entire time.
She is also acting childish
@@ninshu6paths659how?
@@ninshu6paths659well she only a teenager
Yeah I can understand they changed her to make it more explicit for the general audience, but as a book fan I still dislike that they changed her.
The fact that so many people are more angry at her than paul shows how people are easily trick by leaders like him even today
The true villain of the Dune series: cults of personality.
And stagnancy. Society had grown stagnant to an unheard of degree.
I really can't believe with all of the info about World War II that people still don't get it.
Relevant in an Election Year with a certain candidate.
Americans still learned nothing and supporting Trump.
Cm punk?
Paul wearing darker clothing near the end signifies both his part harkonnen heritage, but that hosue atreides isn't much different than harkonnen in their methods or goals. The only main difference is that house atreides is less needlessly sadistic and even that is a bit debatable. This is illustrated perfectly by the beginning and end of part 2. It starts with atreides bodies burning in a pile, it ends with harkonnen bodies burning in a pile.
I would say that House Atreides is more noble than the Harkonnens, but for ulterior motives. They project this generosity is meant to get people to follow them, not because they are so nice. They do all their corrupt practices behind the scenes.
Yes, the Atreides (the Duke) were still willing to use the Fremen for their own agenda of securing power, they were just nicer about doing it than the Harkonnens. Paul was willing to use the Fremen's beliefs against them rather than force! They said as much during the movie!
@@Stitchman3875 I don't think they're more noble than the Harkonnens. I just think they're smarter. Their goals as Houses are much the same and both are willing to use "the little people" to get what they want.
@@lkeke35 I can agree with that. Like I mentioned, alot of the "noble" things they did was for show. Leto even called it Propaganda. They're like the freedom fighters who promise a nation for the people, and then when they get in power, they retract everything they promised. It's basically the formula that Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, you get the idea. It's just that the Atreides did it all behind the scenes, showing a kind family, but underneath they were corrupt.
I prefer to be saved from worms to comply me, than to feed royal family's creatures. But maybe that's just me.
"Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible."
Excellent quote from Herbert, but was paul really seeking power?
Paul was seeking power to change the future
But power is still corruptible. Even for those who never sought it.
I think it's so funny that people are calling Paul a hero. It's the exact reason why Frank wrote Messiah.
What’s so funny about it?
@@POKERBOT2K7 History repeating itself.
I think most people are getting it though. The last scene of the movie really hits home that this is a tragic story.
@@samfilmkid I've just seen a a majority of posts online about it. Maybe it's just the algorithm. I hope it is.
Paul is a hero! He defeated the emperor, took back arrakis, joined the fremen, he is muad'dib!
From Frank Herbert: “I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: ‘May be dangerous to your health.’” The author even considered JFK to be dangerous due to his charisma, while he considered Nixon as valuable for teaching us by example to distrust government.
So Paul isn't that dangerous since he is more Nixon than JFK.
@@Moneo_Atreides I'd say more like JFK, his corruption is masked by charisma, half-measures of honesty, and heroics.
@@Moneo_Atreideshe said nixon was good for teaching us not to trust presidents, not that he was good lmao
@@Moneo_Atreidesother way around. paul was like jfk and obama
“Nothing could be more dangerous for your people than falling into the hands of a hero.”
Yeah I kinda wish they'd kept that scene in part 1 but can understand why they didn't probably disrupt flow of movie.
Hero of revenge will revenge on you. Hero of justice will serve the revenge cold.
This is why I laugh my ass off whenever someone claims Dune is a white savior series. It presents itself as such as first but by the second book it's very, very obviously a deconstruction.
Bingo!
Even the first book establishes that, but it goes over people's heads and they miss the subtext and they miss when its basically spelt out. Thats why Herbert had to write Messiah the way he did.
True!! It's a deconstruction of the savior figure and clearly not a white savior story.
I'm pretty sure even the author was inspired by Lawrence of Arabia when adapting the story, which shows a similar faith with both leads. As though T.E. keeps trying to help, he becomes resigned to the fact that his efforts have done very little to liberate Arabia. He's forced to do some bad things, but feels shame for enjoying himself and the attention. He feeds into the savior narrative until he comes to terms with how helpless his and their situation became.
Agreed. I think part of the issue has been that the other film versions of Dune (apart from the miniseries Children of Dune but I’ll get to that) depicted the first book as a straight up hero’s journey which gives a lot of people the impression that Paul is meant to be seen as this grand noble figure. Even in the COD miniseries, which actually does go into details about Paul’s problematic side, the excesses of his religion is depicted as not really being his fault.
While Paul is not the hero…he isn’t seeking power for himself and feels trapped. After a certain point he knows no matter what he does he is set on a knifes edge where he can either become emperor or die. He chooses not to become the god emperor and instead what you are saying apply more to Leto the Second.
So I'm not the only one who feels he's not seeking power for the sake of it.... goodness.
After a while he is no longer in control of anything really. Did you see the scene where he protests he is not the Prophet but that too gets taken by his followers as a sign that he is? That's what I meant by approaching this with nuance. He started off wanting to wield the prophecy for his own use, thinking he could control it but it takes on a life of its own, until no matter what he says or does becomes part of upholding it!
He kills more than Hitler, dude. He's villain
@@lkeke35To quote Monty Python, “He’s not the Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy.”
Exactly, if Paul is full into the prophecy, he would go through with it till the end aka do what Leto, his son, done aka be a tyrant for the sake of the golden path of humanity and himself visually be a monster; Since Paul walked out of it he didn't go till the end
I think Paul in the book comes across more sympathetic since we get so much more of his pov and a lot less push back. The movie does a better job about highlighting the danger he brings to the fremen and universe more broadly since Chani is so much more of a character. That said, its almost beyond Paul in the sense that the forces at play in these hierarchies would bring ruin regardless of who’s at the top
It’s a good point. Another argument the story makes is that peoples environments have an impact on them in one form or another. The civilization Paul grows up in is a brutal one. It doesn’t let him off the hook, but I guess it makes our own look pretty tame by comparison.
It’s speaking volumes that a very well made story about leadership and heroism gone wrong is dominating the current popculture, whilst superhero stories are one after the other bomb at the box office. Dune truly is the anti-MCU: it’s not colourful, it’s not celebrating single persons with enormous amounts of power, it’s very well done, and it’s made because the makers wanted to tell this story rather than a studio throwing money out for the next franchise.
Also it’s social commentary is subtle unlike the clumsy and vomit inducing pandering of MCU films…
Paul is literally Eren Yager for more westernized minds.
They are indeed similar, they both see the future, and they both beat a little too hard the enemy of his people.
@@Moneo_Atreides I think especially here in these films where it seems he's choosing between Chani and revenge. Eren saw an alternative future with Mikasa that he would have actually enjoyed. Everything hinges on the directors third go of things. We'll see where the scales fall between caution or justification of his crimes". Either way. Love's lost.
@@Moneo_Atreideseren kills "his people" actually
@@user-fx7mq9yl3p killmonger vibes
@@user-fx7mq9yl3pyeah but Paul inaction in Messiah lead to the deaths of 60 billion people
Chani is always Paul's last link to his humanity, and I like how the director is expanding on this by having her rebel against Atreides' messiah complex. In the books, her death drove Paul to depression and he gave up everything. In somewhat of an act of redemption for his misdeeds, Paul became the Preacher to vocally fight against the religion of Muad'Dib. I believe Dune: The Holy War (Part 3) will have Chani convince Paul to stop his violent crusade and she stays by his side to ensure he does not fall to his worst impulses.
much like Paul's visions, we can root for them not to happen... but they will. If he seeks power, it goes down the terrible Golden Path.
I don't think Chani can convince him to stop. The thing is that he's still the Paul who became a Fremen and said he wanted what was best for Chani and the Fremen from the first half of Dune 2 even after taking the water of life. What's different is he can see the many possible futures and realizes all of the best futures for Chani and the Fremen people will require him taking the throne and will set off a jihad. It's terrible for the galaxy but the alternative was worse for his new family. Chani can't convince him to stop because he loves her too much, even if his decisions cause her to leave because she can't bear watching him decide to become a man he despises.
Love dune and the who series. But what bothers me people hate paul, yet praise leto the 2nd even though he was worse. Now yes he did save humanity but still the actions where bad. It's fascinating stuff.
Fucking spoiler alert!!!
@@jr9083 Not really. Dune has been out for decades. Long enough for people to know the story.
This is my perspective, as someone who has only seen the movies and not read the book. Watching Part 2, I don’t think Paul was intentionally tricking Chani or the Fremen when he made the choices to join them and fight with them. At that point, I think he was sincere and wasn’t trying to advance his own power. However, once he drank the Water of Life, he seemed to be corrupted. We saw that with his mother, too. Her entire personality changed with that blue drink. It’s a tragedy that if Stilgar hadn’t forced Paul’s mother to become the Reverend Mother to their fanatic religion, she would not have radicalized the South. Paul’s journey there may not have led into destruction. But him drinking that Water of Life really sealed the deal, as he didn’t seem like the same Paul Atredies anymore. Made me so mad. Like watching two trains collide. So many choices led to corruption, tragedy, and death.
I thought something similar - the Water of Life is potent fucking stuff, and if someone is already primed to be the Kwisatz Haderach by virtue of their heritage, it would be hard to escape that change. It's tragic to think that even if Jessica had followed her instructions and kept to the plan of birthing the *mother* of the KH, that would have only deferred the creation of a supervillain for another generation.
It is difficult to turn the books into a film.When they drink the water of life and survive they can access the memories of ALL their ancestors (and not like the books but talk with their ancestors, they can experience everything that their ancestors experienced, etc. if they are women and if are men, besides that,they can also see all the POSSIBILITIES of the future (of which there are many).It changes a person, and practically they are not people after drinking the water of life, but a legion of people who were their ancestors (and honorable mothers share their lives and the lives of all their ancestors with each other).
Everything was decided the moment Paul was exposed to the spice in the still tent outside after escaping the harkonen thopter. His prophetic powers truly awakened but by the time he worked out how to use them, the only options that lay before him were bad. The book says that the last clear chance to escape the jihad was if Paul and his mother died in the desert. By the time Paul realises that he would have preferred that path, it was too late. Paul could also have challenged Stilgar and won, but he couldn't bring himself to kill his friend. Paul was too kind to be the ruler he should have been. That was his weakness, his attachment. Something his successor didn't share.
He wasn't Paul any more. He became only Muad'Dib.
I think it started more when Gurney comes back into his life.
I don’t think anyone thinks of Homelander as not a villain.
@@andrewwood763 haha
A chunk of the fandom just don’t care.
That is very ignorant go you to say
We love that mf because he is entertaining.
@@ninshu6paths659 Some people can't tell the difference, or couldn't the first season. I remember telling a friend "this character is such a piece of shit" after watching the first few episodes and he couldn't reconcile the difference between being entertained by such a character and the character being a bad person
This might be true for movie Paul, but I would say it’s not true for a book Paul. Surface level reading of the OG Dune will lead you to think he’s a hero. He’s not. One layer deeper is that he’s a manipulative tyrant. But I think the story we’re given is a lot more nuanced than that. The final layer is that Paul is genuinely a good person, trying to navigate power and Information at a scale that no human should ever have to. In the book, we are able to see his rationale and mindset. Even if he dies, he sees that the Jihad is coming regardless. He tries to steer it for the least amount of bloodshed possible. But it’s little consolation given how many are killed. I think this is important not just to appreciate Paul himself more, it’s Frank Herbert’s message that even a benevolent and well meaning individual should not be elevated to this level. That consolidating power is itself bad, these power systems are the problem. If you think Paul was a more selfish person, this is missing the point because then the question arises, what if he was genuinely more selfless. Of course you could say “infinite power corrupts infinitely” and end up at a similar place, but I think Frank Herbert went out of his way to make a more nuanced point than ‘power turns you bad’. It was that even if you retain your good nature, venerating individuals or systems and turning off your critical thinking for ideology will have bad outcomes regardless of how good the system/ideology/person is. And I think that’s a lot more interesting and nuanced than power amplifying his more selfish nature and the effect it has on others. This is true on some level but even in Messiah, it’s clear that Paul still has his good nature. But maybe the movie will take that route since we have much less insight into his thoughts.
Indeed! Paul isnt trying to break down the systems of power or disrupt them. He is seeking to uphold the systems of power just with himself in the driver's seat instead. I dont see his motivations for power as any different than the Baron's, its just the Baron is more blatant. We see Paul trying hard to mitigate the damage he sees coming, but every time he tries, something happens to him that ends up limiting his choices. For example, He saw the killing of Jamis and was trying not to get into that fight but was finally told he would die if he didn't. So he made a choice. He makes choices, but every time he does, the situation makes it so that he must choose between bad and worse. Paul's situation is complicated and needs to be approached with nuance.
Perfectly summarise my feeling toward the film, it tried to reproduce Frank Herbert intention but it's not. Heroic figure is still intact in watcher's mind, since movie's Paul is just not one. I understand now why Villeneuve won't go further than Messiah, it's because it would end up contradict his vision of Dune.
@@Moneo_AtreidesLOL
I reckon he could do Children. It kinda places Paul as someone actively trying to dismantle his own mythology and religion.@@Moneo_Atreides
the book definitely isn't triumphant about Paul's ascendency. You walk away from the book with the sense that wasn't a heroic victory.
Why is the assumption always "people don't realize he's the villain"? Alternative: a lot of these people know he's the villain and they're villains too.
Exactly
Barely anyone sees themself as villainous. If you sympathize with Pauls actions, it‘s probably because you think he‘s right and therefore the hero.
I really doubt the fremen see him like a villain
Majority of people see themselves as good and good natured. They can easily justify their actions, choices, and behaviors in being "right and good". Very few people see themselves as a villain. If you dig deeper into this sometimes the person who you identify as the villain simply depends which side you are on. Both sides/viewpoints normally feel they are good, right, and justified in their actions.
Then why make the Harkonnens so evil including the Baron and Feyd-Rautha so insanely evil? Would've been better if it followed the books just a bit more to give the Harkonnens some backstory so that when Paul takes out both of these two in the climax, we then can ask ourselves if Paul is even "the lesser of 2 evils".
I don’t think Paul is inherently bad. He begins to fall in love with the Fremen culture and Chani specifically. He’s afraid of his fragmented visions of the future. Finally, he makes a choice to lean into that power after he doesn’t forsee the attack on sietch Tabr. I think most if us would do the same thing in his situation. The turning point is after he survives the Spice Agony. Now he can see all potential futures and knows the path he must take to ensure survival for the people he loves and himself. He can even indulge in his revenge along the way. This is a very selfish thing and why he’s an anti-hero. Especially since the price paid for that future is more than 60billion deaths in his Holy War. His main objective was to ensure he and his loved ones survive the immediate conflict (which is completely reasonable). However, the price for his selfishness is absurd. He eventually forsakes the golden path because he can’t deal with that insane burden. In short, he decided to embrace what he thinks is a necessary evil given the circumstances. That’s a very human reaction. He likely feels trapped by time and doesn’t have the luxury to think about certain decisions in a purely selfless moral context since the way is narrow. Is he willing to ensure their survival when the price is mass genocide? It’s a cruel fate the universe has cast upon him. Quite the tragic character. That’s likely why Helen calls him “abomination” later, since he has given into his own human desires. The books go into this way more, but I feel the movies have portrayed this in an incredible way. I can’t wait for the aftermath in Messiah.
Unrelated, but seeing her being called Helen feels so weird. Since it's almost always her full name, Reverend Mother, or Mohiam.
hahaha I totally feel that@@TCO_404
yeah exactly, his hand was forced. Not like he can sit there and let his love ones die. No one would do that.
The entire point of Rev. Mother Helen testing him with the box was to see if he could overcome his human urges and desires and he showed he could do that as he did not remove his hand from the box despite the pain or he would have died. He has the ability to control his human urges such as lust, revenge, love for family, etc. and instead he gives into them when he has great power. His hand was not forced to do the things he did as he killed his own grandfather and could have simply stuck with the control of Dune, spice production, as the book and first movie say how Spice is the most important thing in the universe and is the only way travel basically happens. He ignores lessons from his life like his father should have married his mother instead of keeping her as a concubine and then he marries for power in the universe while Chani basically becomes his concubine. This goes past revenge and turns into an issue of greed for power. If it was purely revenge then just having those who did them wrong held accountable would be enough. The director had put in some key lines that make it very clear about how Paul's path is choices he makes. Duncan (Jason Momoa) clearly tells Paul that it "Dreams are stories, It only matters what we do when we are awake". Paul is choosing to fulfill the story in his own mind. I can not disagree more that "everyone would have taken this path" about the choice of three lives for 60+ Billion. What level of selfishness. Maybe Rev. Mother Helen should have kept turning the temp up in the box to see that he would give into his urges that were not best for anyone except Paul. A quote about Revenge - "Always dig two graves. One for the person you wish revenge on and the other for yourself" as revenge destroys a person whether mentally, physically, or they go down a terrible path but the truth is that revenge is never fulfilling of the pain the person feels and what people will do in order to obtain it will destroy themselves one way or another.
That selfishness can be pretty easily demonstrated with the trolley problem. It's a very human thing to fall into. Would it not be strange for Paul to just forsake that future and allow Arrakis to get steamrolled to prevent the Holy War even at the cost of his entire family? When things get personal, people stop thinking of the moral whole and become significantly more selfish. It was just too much power too fast and the Empire tried to kill House Atreides on top of it. For whatever reason, the Sisterhood thought it was a good idea. Granted, we're led to believe there may not have been other options that would succeed in their survival. I ultimately agree with you over Paul's misguided actions, but it gets tricky when you become a biological prediction engine (gain great power, and this particular type of power). I guess it comes down to whether or not you think that reality is ultimately deterministic. But that's a black-box type of question which Paul seemingly has the ability to answer, and we do not. All this aside, it doesn't make him any less dangerous or evil. But I would say he's perfectly human. There is no high ground here, just incredible sacrifice (one that Paul wasn't willing to make). Would you let your own family die in that circumstance?@@blackdandelion5549 The Bene Gesserit seem to understand that the Gom Jabbar is not quite enough. They enforce strict rule and command their lower ranks with their own power over them. The relationship between the sisters and the Reverend Mother is mostly command out of fear. They seek to control others so they can make the hard choices instead of leaving it up to emotion. So, they can tell you to leave your family to die because you have no choice (and they regularly do this with their sisters). But Paul was not yet under their control. A series of events created this circumstance, including the poor mishandling of Paul by the Bene Gessserit organization. Not sure if that was hubris or something else on their part.
When I saw dune part 2. One thing that made obvious is the dangers of prophecy. In how and why someone can use prophecy to manipulate people. In this case the manipulater is that vagufull willow.
It's also a really good example for how religious extremism is dangerous, following something blindly is dangerous.
Has anyone else been watching dozens upon dozens of YT videos about Dune since seeing this movie? I understand I have to sit with it for a while longer before officially claiming this but Dune Part 2 just may be the best film I've ever seen. That's how I feel currently after seeing it 3x in IMAX
I saw it yesterday in an ordinary cinema . Amazingly good film . I have nt enjoyed a film as much since the 1990s . It’s a near masterpiece . One of the top half dozen films I ever seen
Yes! I just saw it the second time today. I’m not into sci fi at all. My favorite movie of all time is No country for old men and my number 2 is good fellas. Dune 2 is hands down my favorite movie of all time now!
Guilty. Finally get to see in IMAX tomorrow after seeing in theater.
Watched it the third time this Saturday also - felt so good! 3rd time I went just to hear the movie
I mean, he does see a future where all humanity dies out and sets humanity on a path of survival via his son choosing the Golden path. IMO, he is a tragic hero. Flawed and trapped by the future and need for survival.
Yep, Paul didn't have the stomach to do what Leto II did. It was butchers work and Paul found the blade too heavy the hold.
@@TrillyThough People already call Paul not a hero, so can we give him a little sympathy for being a bit human
When you do something "good" by killing innocent people, you are villain. Back off, fAnBoI, you are easy person who love to be brainwashed by mischievous politicians
In Dune Messiah we see that his oracular powers have limits and doom him. His Fremen and later his siter become the scourge of the empire, killing everyone who opposes him. He allows a Bene Gesserit plot to assassinate him to partly succeed because he sees it as a way to escape his prescience. He allows Irulan to poison Chani because he sees that as the only way to prolong her life.
The book kinda infers that the Jihad will happen regardless of Paul's decisions. He becomes Emperor not so much out of revenge per say, but that if doesn't follow through the future will be far worse than just a jihad. He seeks to control the jihad and lessen its effects. The great houses also don't declare war in the book out of being stopped by Choam industries and the Guild. The jihad is just an outpouring of Fremen zeal that happens Inspite of Paul.
It takes a couple of days for the beehive to realize the queen is missing.
Paul is a hero in the technical term. The issue isn’t that he isn’t a hero, but rather he IS. A hero, and that alone is the issue. Dune follows the Hero’s journey to a T, as laid out in “A hero with a thousand faces.” Beat for beat, Paul follows the Hero’s path… yet the archetype he fits is exactly what Frank Herbert used to subvert it. Messiah is when the archetype is broken, as many have pointed out. But make no mistake, Paul IS a hero… and heroes are the problem.
Basically Pual is like Anakin Skywalker becoming Darth Vader even worse?!
Yes, that's absolutely where that prequel storyline comes from. His son is even the main character on the same desert planet for the next trilogy.
@@TCO_404and his son rules the humanity with an iron fist for 3000 years!
@@drewmorrison as a worm
@@TCO_404 Paul even has twins like Luke and Leia and Chani meets an end like Padme after giving birth. LMAO George Lucas
And then Luke the 2nd saves humanity by ending the empire.
Paul is a kind of tragic hero. As a human, he understands he is fated to be the cause of billions of deaths and this causes internal conflict - which is the source of much of the drama in the book - a human heart at war with itself.
He chose this destiny. This is true in the film but it is true in the novel too. After the Harkonnen attack on Arrakeen Paul sees a possible future in which he could leave Arrakis and avoid Jihad but instead chooses the path that leads to the Fremen because he wants Desert power to defeat his enemies and avenge his father. Paul's story is the equivalent of what LOTR would have been like if Aragorn had taken the One Ring to defeat Sauron... before becoming the new Dark Lord.
@@natzbarney4504 By that logic, Paul was just supposed to hand over Aarakis to Feyd so he wouldnt be 'the bad guy'?
@@energyfitness5116 Yes exactly. Because as Paul knows (since he sees it) his interstellar holy war will cause tens of billions of victims, far more than the cruelest Harkonnen can dream of. By using the religious fervor of the Fremen as a weapon to bring down his enemies, Paul knows that he is awakening a force that he cannot stop and that no one will be able to control, a force that will cause more destruction and suffering in ten years than the Harkonnens could in a thousand years. While a Feyd Rautha on the throne, married to Irulan, would have been under the close control of the Bene Gesserit.
@@energyfitness5116 Exactly. Because, as Paul knows (since he sees it in his visions), the horrors, suffering and destruction of his Jihad, with its tens of billions of victims, are far worse than anything Feyd Rautha on the throne could have commit. When he tells his mother, in the film, "we are Harkonnens, to survive, we must act like Harkonnens" Paul knows he is heading down a very dark path. But unlike Paul, Feyd Rautha will have remained under the control of the Bene Gesserit and would never have had the means to launch into an interstellar holy war.
@@natzbarney4504 it's literally not. youre ignoring the line said prior to that, he said he saw all the possible futures and there was only one in which they survived, the path of holy war. the bene gesserit are the true villains u know that right?
Subverting tropes is tricky. Most of the time stories fail by propping up the trope they intended to subvert. In the case of Dune the subversion of the trope kicks in hard at the fourth book. I hope they make it that far.
What an extraordinary story and what a gut-wrenching tragedy. The story of Paul, choosing to use the Desert power to obtain his revenge, thereby causing the bloody Jihad he wanted to avoid, is a bit like if in LOTR, Aragorn seized the One Ring to defeat Sauron, before becoming the new Dark Lord.
If he didn’t, it would’ve happened regardless and the fremen would still be oppressed.
A theme missed is the idea that knowledge can corrupt. A bit of a Faustus idea. Once Paul learns that he is not only an Atreides but also a Harkonnen, he let's loose his violent, megalomanical side...maybe as an excuse to give himself permission to be ruthless...he comes to believe in both his own myth but also his dark nature as a form of genetic determinism. The idea that blind faith is bad, not least of which, because it can be manipulated, smacks the viewer in the face throughout the film.
Great video, the only thing I wished this video tackled a bit more would be the outcomes if Paul decided to be more of a hero instead of taking the "dark turn" towards becoming the messiah he himself didn't believe in for most of the movie. For instance, how else could he have united the south to fight against the house of Harkonnen? Should he have tried to usurp the Harkonnen in the first place? From a first watch, it feels like there was a large portion of the Fremen population that wanted a self-fulfilling prophecy that led to a holy war, and whether or not Paul wanted to be in his position, he was ultimately thrusted into it anyway. If we were to assume the most altruistic position, then what should have Paul done?
Give up his revenge, even if it means victory for his enemies. Because it is the only way to avoid this holy war which will cause tens of billions of victims, as Paul knows.
@@natzbarney4504 wouldn't this be a case of "orderly peace instead of chaotic justice" though? If Paul hadn't have accepted his place in the game then the fremen would have been wiped out by the harkonnens.
@@jimbobbby I don't believe the Harkonnens would ever have been able to exterminate all the Fremen. They have not been there in eighty years before the story begins. Furthermore, Muad'Dib's Jihad will cause the death of several tens of billions of human beings. Dozens of peoples will be annihilated, dozens of planets sterilized... In short, the holy war that Paul provokes will be several times worse and will cause thousands of times the number of victims that the extermination of the Fremen could have represented (assuming that the Harkonnens are capable of it, which is not the case).
He could have not taken the water of life, he could have not declared himself the messiah when he knew it was a Bene Gesserit manipulative lie, he could have just fought with the fremen- guiding them, since he has knowledge of the Harkonnens. And when the other great houses refused to recognize his take over of Arrakis, he could have stayed on the planet and threatened the nuclear reaction if they tried to retake it. He had the emperor as hostage as well as his daughter- why go after the great houses unless they attack them? In the holy war (in the book) 60+ billion die because of religious extremism- was this really the best choice?
The harkonnens would still be impressing the fremen and coming to kill them.
So Paul can see all the possible futures and his actions represent his chosen path. In this movie he said that Chani would come back to him (in the books she supports his choices). So maybe he has some kind of redemption arc and Dune becomes green and Chani goes back to him. I’m a hopeless romantic
It's from the novel the author wrote that way He is what he is I'm happy it's no typical love story It has so many layers and really spicy interesting More thrilling tbh I personally don't hate Paul He has all the reasons to do What he did It's not easy to be in his shoes He did what he had to And Timothee Chalamet was as usual Incredible I wish out of every time this time he wins The Oscar ❤
You say that he shows he wants revenge by murdering Baron Harkonen, but thats the movie iteration. Its his sister who murders Baron in the books.
I've held this opinion of Paul Atreides since first reading the books. Nothing declared in your video is untrue. However, let's lay out the scenario. 1. Fremen were oppressed and fought the Harkonnens before the arrival of the Atreides. 2. the Emperor gave the fief to the Atreides to kill them. 3. the Mission Protectiva was effectively sown among the Fremen. Paul followed the script he had. Once the Harkonnens returned. Kill the Fremen was order of the day. In politics, good guys are few and far between. Case in point, Duke Leto the Just. Frankly, Emperor Feyd is very frightening to me. I'm a pragmatic realist and as such. I recognize that some plays in politics maybe dirty but necessary for the greater good. The rejection of Paul's ascendency has more to do with Great Houses or CHOAM getting a bigger share of spice than anything noble or good, realistically speaking.
Exactly, the alternatives were worse.
And that's why Leto II (II) and Ghanima have to do the golden path and Leto had to go worm.
Still having trouble seeing Paul as the antihero (I am judging ONLY by what the films have shown this far). From what I can see, for the first time the Fremen are both united and victorious over an unambiguously malicious enemy. Maybe part 3 will clarify in the films what the book makes abundantly clear. But to me (so far) Paul has remained loyal to his friends (though I agree the abandonment of Chani is ominous) and killed some of the baddest baddies I've seen in film.
I think even if you are basing everything purely off the film (which I agree is the way it should be done when talking about an adaptation), releasing millions of Fremen soldiers to massacre a bunch of houses who don't agree with a sudden power grab is a pretty extreme stance Yeah Shadam and Vlad are bad dudes, but what has House Moritani done on screen to warrant being attacked
Exactly!
I felt like the film tried making it pretty clear. He talks about what will happen if he takes power - slaughter of billions. He says this directly to Gurney.
Yeah some of these comments feel like they just want to be judgemental weirdos instead of actually look at what the movie is showing. He pretty clearly states he can see all futures so its safe to assume he's choosing either the least bloody one or the one that will be most beneficial to the fremen
@@stephengrant4841 the slaughter of billions will happen anyway, he saw a future in which the slaughter didn't end in him and/or fremen and/or humanity dead and followed it.
I find watching the main character be corrupted by choice or circumstance a very interesting form of storytelling.
I think it's theres an interesting parallel between Paul Atreides and Aragorn from LotR. They're so similar in their character and their abilities and they are both deeply involved in a prophecy that puts them at the centre of history but whereas Aragorn did the righteous thing by fulfilling the prophecy Paul gave into his weakness and fear. Its very difficult to ignore the relation between the two works and what they have to say about ultimate power and ultimate evil.
Paul wasnt the prophesied one, it was Leto II. Paul was a mistake due to Jessica having a son, thus making the Bene Gesserit pay for their hubris(trying to control Nature).
There also wasn't religious extremism in LOTR. Aragorn was prophesied to be the King of Gondor but never set up as a God, or had cults worshipping him as such.
Wasn't it plainly stated that the holy war would happen no matter what Paul's choice is? I don't get this explanation.
The seed was planted to brainwash people to follow a leader and the risks in doing so becoming less thinking and automatic hivemind who do not think and only act upon commands. It would happen as long Paul not in control. And when he is dead it will happen if nobody ensure to redirect the path. Machines are dangerous, humans thinking like machines are more dangerous since there is no cure or regret or destruction of the machine.
He has to be there steering the holy war, for the good of the fremen.
Paul was no hero because it was impossible to be one in the situation Frank Herbert put him in. But he was a hero because he was the first human being to reach the Kwisatz Haderach state and he avenged his family too. Everything else is other people's insanity - he couldn't stop it. It was explicitly described in the last chapter of ''Dune''.
Exactly, it seems everyone is ignoring the geopolitical side of Dune. The alternatives were worse, Paul tried to choose a path that would lead to the least bloodshed. The problem is somethings take on a momentum of their own and there is nothing you can do about it besides adjust.
How does becoming the Kwisatz Haderach make him a hero? How does avenging his family make him a hero?
@@nicolettetallmadge3254 Being a saint and being a hero are different things, you know? Defending your family's honor and achieving what no one did before are heroic feats. At least to my eyes :)
In the books he didn’t betray Chani it was her idea to marry princess Urilan and he stayed faithful to Chani through the whole marriage she was always his wife princess Urilan was just for political reason his mother even told Chani they would be remember led as wives.
Yeah, I never understood why people would say this was what Chani was angry about. Yeah, I know most don't like arrange marriages, but if the fate of the world is going to head for chaos and a marriage is what can maintain some peace, I'd say duty comes first, despite how much you may not like it If they had Paul stay with Chani, and let the chaos occurs then this should be portrayed not as a heroic action or a "love concurs all moment".
Man, you folks do such good, informative takes… watching Dune P2 for the first time on the weekend, and my heart sunk for the fremen as they prepared to ‘take them to paradise.’ The aspirational colonialist outcome of ‘desert power’ combined with the Bene Jesuit myth building brought to bear. Amazing movie. Brought me to tears at places knowing where things were headed. Laurence of Arabia at an intergalactic scale. THAT’S damn good cinema. 💥
I really did not think paul was doing this whole thing to gain absolute power for the sake of it... I personally still felt sympathetic for his character. I thought after he drank the blue water he literally saw visions of the future and he chose the one path with the best outcome even though that outcome still results in a holy war. Marrying princess irulan was the only way . Maybe i need to watch a second time but thats how i perceived it.
No, you perceived it correctly. I think they have their predetermined opinion and need to twist and turn to get there. That's why there's weird leaps in logic and purposeful misunderstandings of the movie.
thats literally what happened. based on the film this path of holy war was the only path where they win/survive.
I’m not sure it isn’t so much that Paul isn’t a hero, but that Paul is an example of the problems with heroes. A lot of people that are generally seen as heroes from history are much like Paul. Charismatic leaders who used the people they lead and brought them into bloody conflict. Also, it’s not about him having a choice between using his powers for good or evil. It’s not that simple or as black or white. His problem was he didn’t have good paths. He was actually able to see the results from his decisions and none were good. He caved into going down the path he liked the best, but it’s not like everyone would have gotten a happy ending if he made different decisions.
Thank you for (finally!) drawing the parallels to the multigenerational curse of the gods on the House of Atreus (i.e. the "Atreides" in Greek) from ancient Greek myth. The first "adaptations" (that we know of) of those oral legends were by the playwrights of Classical Greece. Frank Herbert's was a modern riff on them, just as Star Wars was a riff on Dune... I read recently that Herbert apparently once said the difference between a hero and an antihero is where you stop telling the story. His extended story (of the full arc of Paul's life) shows he understood this goes even further: in Paul's story, the difference between an anti-hero and a tragic figure is also where you stop telling the story. Paul appears at time a hero AND a heroic villain, but is ultimately destroyed by what the Greeks would have interpreted as a whim of the gods - i.e. in the full knowledge that his own feet of clay condemned his own son to the loss of his humanity and to having his name forever cursed by future generations as a result... Now THERE'S a story worthy of Greek tragedy...
This is great! It’s been so annoying to see people call Paul a hero and say he didn’t betray Chani. He can love her and still betray her for selfish gain which is not true love or at the very least healthy love.
Some of them might be fans of the book. Chani is quite different there
TBF if they followed the book, it wouldn't have been a betrayal to Chani. The book ends the same with a marriage to irulan, but he tells Chani it's a sham political marriage and he won't so much as look at her over Chani
" betray her for selfish gain " Call Paul a selfish... He loves her, if he was selfish, he would have just left his responsability and join her don't you think ? I won't spoil Messiah but it's really tempting
I bet he's the type who wouldn't even pay child support, for real real.
Great take.
Paul had to go South because of the terrorist attack by Feyd Rautha on the Fremen's holy temple. Initially he was reluctant but forced into it because the Fremen wanted him to meet with the war council. He knew that he would have to drink the 'water of life' to see the future. Only by drinking did he know how to defeat the Emperor. He saw into the future on how to obtain victory. He saw the imminent sandstorm and knew that would be the best time to attack and take back the north of Arrakis. If he did not make this 'turn' then the Fremen would have been wiped out by the Harkkonens. There would have been genocide of the Fremen people. His actions prevented that. He now seeks power and there will be a holy way but he can't be seen as a villain. The Fremen would have been wiped out had he not taken those actions. He doesn't have this choice of 'good side', his fate has lead him to this path. It was out of his control. This take doesn't make any sense, what could have Paul done to be the 'hero'? He saved the Fremen from annihilation. He freed there people and took out the Harkonnnen's who were there oppressors.
I have not read the books and a lot of this analysis depends on what the later books say. The movie does not make it "painfully clear" that he's evil. There is exactly one character who disagrees with him and that's his jealous girlfriend. She comes across as jealous that she is losing him and mad that he's an outsider. I did not think she was the correct one. I thought she wanted the power for herself. The movie needed more people disagreeing or articulating what he was doing was wrong if that was meant to be clear from the movie alone. He also works hard to resist causing that big holy war, and only gives in at the end when he feels he has to and after great pressure from everyone. I can see darkness coming in the next movie, but it's not as apparent in this one like The Take suggests.
5:00 Okay, putting this here totally kills the mood, like wtf. "Yeah, we're talking about evil manipulation and mass murder but look at those cool fruits"
Well in defense of Paul. He did love Chani, and she was on board because she knew Paul didn't love love Irulan. In the book, Chani knows that Paul is married to Irulan legally but Chani is the one who is loved. Chani is the one who bears his children, she is the one who Paul sleeps with. Jessica consoled Chani at the end of the book saying "We who carry the title of concubine, history will call us wives."
Great movie, despite the Fire Alarm interruption about halfways through, got a free ticket for a future viewing, totally awesome!
If you still think Paul is a hero after reading Dune Messiah, you haven’t been paying attention.
THANK YOU!!!
Sit he people that hurt him and the fremen are the same people, the Harkonens. He needed to liberate them from oppression, stop the Great War, prevent the most blood shed and take control of the empires power to prevent further sissies in the future. There are a lot of responsibilities for one person. He may not be a saint but he did his best.
Did I miss something or didn't Paul do what was best for the fremen? It was the only way to save the planet of arrakis. He saved Arrakis, and killed the Harkonnen. Like it was definitly not a good way to do it, but he said it was the only way to win against the harkonnen and set Arrakis free? Was he just lying for his own benefit? Like I'm genuinly curious. I have a bit of a hard time understanding his choices.
I didn't feel that Paul was a bad person or motivated primarily be revenge. He just seemed like a person trapped between bad choices. He tried hard to avoid going south for a long time because he saw in his visions that him going south would lead to genocide. He only changed his mind when it became clear that him not going south would lead to his fremen tribe being wiped out by the Harkonnens. At least, that's how it came across to me. It seemed as if there were simply no good options. One analogy i haven't seen anyone make is the similarity with Islam. A messiah unites a desert people and leads them out of the desert to wage holy war on an established Empire. It's the Islamic conquest in space.
The fremen are explicitly descended from an Islamic tribe in the books. The similarities are no accident.
There are more of us who knows he's not a good guy. I find it funny that it was debatable during the time when it was just the books, but since Dune Part 2, it finally ended the debate. The signs were there in the first film. I absolutely did not like his mom and what she was teaching him and that Paul was embracing it. It showed how absolutely sick people like her and him are. I felt sorry for Chani, and I love how realistic that is, too. The director changing that part of the story is a good decision and I believe this will shift the focus to Chani's character arc.
Now that I've seen part 2 I now believe Chani is the true hero of this story and is probably the real chosen one. 🤔
This is how I feel about Eren from AOT, I do feel like Isayama similar to Herbet with Paul used Eren as a warning in relying on one charismatic leader. You also said how Paul could have used this messiahship for good but I wonder if that’s possible, to use it for good. Even if Paul sought to use it for good, someone is probably bound to use it for selfish means(like his former master who wanted him to use this to avenge his father).
So insightfull /S
3:05 That's just FUCKING AWESOME, to think a story of 68!!!! Was so ahead and much more bolder and smarter than everyone else in the subsequent years is as jaw dropping as it is frustrating
Disney Fairy Tale Prince Syndrome has fooled many of you into thinking that a hero is something that it's not in the real world. If this was the real world. Of course he's a hero. A HERO ISNT A SAINT A HERO IS A SAVIOR. Paul liberated an oppressed people the only way that you can in the real world, which is by amassing power. He sacrificed the love that he had for the most important person in his life in order to gain enough power to do what needed to be done. Sometimes the paths of justice and vengeance intertwine.
Lets completely ignore the fact that he was content in not enacting revenge until the Freman's home got bombed out of existence and every one including his girlfriend tells him he needs to go to the south to do something about it. He then still wanted to stay and not go. But some how this video completely and utterly ignores that part to have this narrative. Lets also completely ignore the fact that if he doesnt marry florence and go on this war to stop the other houses. The houses are going to come down and annihilate all his friends and family. 100% zero people would allow that to happen. To call him a villian to want to defend his family is true vaillianiary.
agreed. The video is focused too much on the later books and not looking at just the movie itself and what the movie presents.
Paul had his family's nuclear arsenal and could have threatened to use it if the other houses attacked.They wouldn't dare lose the spice planet to nuclear bombs. Then he could have enacted trade deals for the spice to keep the other houses in check. But he didn't because he started believing in the messiah lie and that a holy war would be the ony way to keep power. There were other choices.
@@jaimicottrill2831 were there other choices? because he literally saw all the timelines and said only by doing the holy war they survive.
@@VeelouC But are those visions true? I don't think, even if he does see the future, that things are always set in stone. After all, the Bene Gesserit see the future sometimes yet they did not predict what would happen with Jessica disobeying them. See my earlier comment about other choices he could have tried rather than a holy war that will kill billions.
The only problem with getting a great "Dune" movie now is it looks like all of the movies that copied it. All of my friends were comparing Paul's journey to Luke's, and I said no he's more like Annakin. The comparisons are way too similar to believe George didn't copy "Dune" with only a few minor changes.
It has been well known since 1977 that Geroge ripped off a lot of Dune for Star Wars. I love SW but this isn't new information, everyone has known about it since the first SW movie came out
It kind of reminds me of Homelander from "the boys". From all the people in the show who love the guy and admire him, in their eyes he can do no wrong.
Not sure I agree completely. He’s clearly disturbed by his potential fate in the first film and fights against it most of the second. The visions become more intense and once he spiritually taps into the desert for guidance, the lineage of Freemen Mother Reverend’s beg him to fulfill the savior role and commit mass genocide. He does want revenge but he eventually gives in to his fate out of some profound duty to the Freemen. You make it sound like he manipulated everyone out of a lust for power, it’s actually the other way around. He was manipulated and cornered into it.
There is a quote from far later on, that sum's up the Dune series: "All humans make mistakes, and all leaders are but human." Paul is, in a weird way, beyond judgement; he alone by genetics & experience has the perspective to fully see past, present, and possible futures, so his choices are the most well informed. In contrast, other judgement of his actions are limited to the here and now. In some ways, this can be compared to our faith in a god; we decide whether we judge horrible immoral actions done in a god's name for what they are, or trust that those acts are in god's plan, & that plan leads to the best possible outcome among many horrendous futures. Both views have their validity, and both make that god simultaneously good & evil. But in the end, Paul is just a man; he will make good and bad choices; and his prescience & conscience will dictate his actions similarly to a forgone destiny. He both has the most agency and no agency. He knows what he must do, and both leans into it & shys away from it (only to see that any act of avoidance is same as leaning in). Even when Paul attempts to stop & abandon making any choice, the world waits upon him to choose. Finally, as we will see, the only true "sin" Paul commits is holding onto his humanity too tightly, to the impediment of others developing their own.
No one in ANY of the Dune books is a good person, thats the point. They all think they know whats best for the universe but in the end they all want power and they all have personal motives. Just wait till Dune Messiah and Children of Dune come out.
Exactly, they all think their doing the right thing but really they all just want power
The only exception I would say is Leto II when he becomes a worm. By that point he can see the end of time and sees humanity dying out if he lets things be the way they are. He has to become a bad person to prevent that, but prevent it he does.
Did paul want power?
@@afrosamourai400 Yes, eventually he takesover the whole universe.
@@StephenLeGresley yeah but was it his primary goal?
My teen daughter called him an anti-hero. Which is not how I think of it and I found to be an interesting perspective as I've been reading the books for over 30 years. Film made interesting changes to make it more palatable for younger modern audiences. I don't hate the changes but I wish the movie could've been a deeper dive(a tough ask at best). Did not deep dive into the guild/bene gesserit/religion. No mention of the bene tleilax or Ixians. Changes to and surface perspectives on motivations of main characters.... but I enjoyed.
Who has seen David Lynch's Dune here? Starring Kyle MacLahan, who plays agent Dale Cooper in Twin Peaks, aswell as having the male leading role in Blue Velvet.
I want extended versions of these 2 movies each 4 hrs long :)))
I saw a really excellent comment that said a proper adaptation of "Dune" should have a closing sequence close to the end of "The Godfather" - where Michael is ascendant but has clearly lost the trust and love of the people around him. It seems like this version really hit that mark!
I think it's most accurate to say that Paul is neither the hero nor the antihero of Dune; he is the victim, a tragic figure. His attempts to avoid his destiny are like a cork trying to avoid a tsunami. Eventually, the great wave of history and conspiracy picks him up and carries him helplessly along. His place as a messiah reminds me of how Jesus is portrayed in "Jesus Christ, Superstar" -- a victim of the myth built around him.
Oh wow… I really thought I got it but feel like I missed so much. I liked the that the film took care to make the antithesis to a Messiah/ messiah arch but I did not pick up on those other layers. I didn’t take a striving for power but a succumbing to the draw and call of it mixed with one’s own charisma/magnetism/ power & upbringing. There are many great things I got from the experience of the film but for me that particular layer isn’t inherently apparent but I’ve been wanting to rewatch it so I’ll see if I pick up on that.
This is also a piece about prophecy and especially self-fulfilling prophecy. Some people may see this as Paul being the true hero for bringing the Bene Gesserit's folly back to their own doorstep. And while so many people suffer and die, he ultimately brings forth a paradise on Arrakis. So it may be a much deeper story on "careful what you wish for" more than anything else.
That is essentially the main theme of Dune: Messiah, really glad they hint at it with Chani, the end really shows that not all is well even before the beginning of the holy war.
It's just about, how power corrupts. No matter how true you are as a person, power takes precedence over feelings and emotions. It does not care what you think, it only seeks a means to an end regardless of the outcome
Nah power is not meant to dominate you but to be dominated..look at marcus aurelius, jesus, mandela, gandhi, clement atlee..
Best Picture of 2024
I don't agree. Killing the Baron was revenge (and self preservation). Unleashing the Fremen to take down anyone who questioned his rule was not revenge. That was a naked power grab..
In the books he doesn't kill the Baron and by that point the Jihad is going to happen regardless of his choices. He becomes Emperor in an attempt to control the chaos that his decisions/visions have unleashed.
@@ethancoster1324 Okay coolio but we aren't discussing the book here. You can't infer what this Paul is based on the actions of his book counter-part because they are different characters. If we were discussing the book then yes this point would be relevant, but this is discussing the film. It just seems like you are trying to flex that you have read the book... well so have a lot of people, congrats
Isayama to Herbert: This is the story You started....isn't it??
I went into this movie knowing nothing, didn’t even see the first 💀, however I did notice how Paul didn’t seem like such a good person. Although he did seem to be interested in fremen lives, it’s very noticeable how he isn’t the HERO, especially after drinking the water of life!!!
Paul is a hero in pagan terms like so in the Greek / Roman histories. Our films and culture used to represent a hero in Christian terms, but it seems that we're coming back to paganism and because of that all the protagonists are changing their moral and driving forces to something more egoisthic and uncharitable.
The story was written in 1965
I’m to sure I agree totally with this take. I think that Paul was genuinely horrified by his forseen holy war and hated that the people he respected, like Stilgar, had bought into the Bene Gesserite fiction. However he *did* want revenge. As the film goes on and the losses mount up he comes to believe that these horrific visions are truly predetermined when he hadn’t before because he is forced to go south when he had been truly trying not to. Basically he gives into his weakness, but I don’t think it necessarily ever wants power. Even when he asked to marry Irulian it comes from a place of revenge. Remember until he meets Gureney again he does not know of the extent of the Emperor’s involvement. It is his choice to drink the water of life and the film makes us know that it is a choice but it also makes us know how Paul has been beaten down into feeling like it was his only choice.
Dune part 2 is better than all star wars movies and LOTR and Harry poter all together
I've spent more than 50 years studying the idea of the hero, the most important legacy of ancient and medieval epic poets. DUNE is a masterpiece, a modern epic; and Paul is an epic hero, who bares comparison to Gilgamesh and Achilles. I'm appalled by what most contributors do not know. Make a claim if you like, but you must support it.
Movie goers hailing Paul as a hero are the exact bunch of idiots who missed the whole entire plot point as pointed out by Frank Hubert when he wrote the books 🙄🤦🏻
I’m not going to lie, near the ending I was asking myself, is Paul the bad guy? XD The Horkonans may have taken down one house, but Paul is about to take all of them down, in his ascension to become emperor.
But didnt Paul act the way he did in part two due to his visions, in which he saw that this was the only way to defeat his enemies, and that all other ways just lead to a victory of the Harkonnen and the Emperor? For as moraly grey Paul is, the Harkonnen and the Emperor clearly were more evil than him. So Pauls motive is not gaining power, but preventing a Harkonnen/Emperor victory. I have only seen the movies and not the books.
"Gurney," Paul whispered. "Since we've been rejoined I've yet to hear you produce the proper quotation for the event." He turned, saw Gurney swallow, saw the sudden grim hardening of the man's jaw. "As you wish, m'Lord," Gurney said. He cleared his throat, rasped: " 'And the victory that day was turned into mourning unto all the people: for the people heard say that day how the king was grieved for his son.' " Paul was not a hero. He was a disappointment to Duke Leto, had he survived to see the outcome.
He doesn’t choose to become a dictator, he doesn’t see a way around it
Never read or even known that there can be dune 3, I was so confused as the story ended, specially because I felt how they showed paul in the end was positive.
In what sense is it a positive ending? Paul unleashes millions of Fremen soldiers on houses that question a sudden and violent power grab
This was such an odd, shallow take. I think Paul was very genuine in the beginning, but there was a darkness to his personality that could be (and was) exploited. We see from the very beginning he’s prone to angry outbursts but also he’s attentive, thoughtful, and caring with the fremen people and he’s true to that. I don’t think he joined them to lead them on a quest to get revenge (though it was a desire of his) or to get close to Chani to further his agenda, it became that when the propaganda (lack of a better word) that he was the chosen one finally worked on him and the dark parts of him took over but that wasn’t his initial intent or where he began personality wise. This video is talking as if Paul was some maniacal mustache twirling villain from the very beginning 💀 he chose to give in to the corruption, sure, but he didn’t start there. That feels like the entire point. Paul is a far more interesting and nuanced baddie than this video gives the character credit for. Also? The Homelander part?! No one mistakes that man for anything but evil. You can’t be for real 😭
When it comes to this movies version of Paul, the whole "messiahs are dangerous" thing fell kinda flat for me. Paul was justifed in just about everything he did. The Freman's monkey wrenching was going to lead to war and death, hell the Harkonnens shot down their home. So paul acted and shot back. Even him marrying Christopher Walkens daughter i get on paper. To secure the peace. I get why Chani was mad at that part and left, but her pissy mood before that and for most of the second half didnt make any sense and just felt like the writers forcing the narrative rather than just letting it play out. We shouldve gotten at least ONE conversation between them after he took the water of life. Even if she wasnt happy with him and his new role, she shouldve talked to him about her grievances if she cares so much. But no she doesnt say one word to him and acts like he doesnt exist. Now when Paul wants to marry Irulan im supposed feel sorry for her? You wanted nothing to do with this guy the whole second half of the movie. Overall great movie but the awkward placement of some of the character development made the theme of this movie unsuccessful in my opinion.
I'm sorry but this take is pretty incorrect imho. Paul tries as much as he can justify to avoid taking power. The point is he is an instrument of fate and literally has 0 agency, his options are take more power or die, I suppose you could argue choosing power over death is selfish and self serving but honestly it mostly seems pragmatic. Once he survives the waters of life he can literally see every possible future and specifically chooses the option with the least amount of harm. Its still a shitton of collateral damage but its the only choice he can morally take at that point again showing paul has no agency, he's a leader who is entirely chosen by fate, its a deconstruction of the messiah as it is not the person anyone needs but the person the universe has chosen and that ends up being a terrible thing. The idea being that amount of power conccentrated into any individual is bad for people in general.
If he didn’t want revenge he could’ve kept living in the desert with Chani. He chose the future that let him destroy his enemies.
He didn't have to take the Water of Life. That was Paul having agency. That was something he chose to do and it ended up being a golden trap.
@@BazookaTroopazthe harkonnens would have wiped out the fremen though, who have already been subjugated for generations. Everyone is trapped here and Paul is trying to create the path of last harm. It's not solely blind revenge.
@@BazookaTroopaz The Harkonnens would the rule Aarakis and kill them off. You want to say thats the better option?
You are basing this on book Paul. Book Paul isn't movie Paul
I mean I think it's pretty easy to speculate what's going to happen in the 3rd film with Chani and Irulan, they are going to swap roles where Chani will be plotting to overthrow Paul and Irulan will just be Paul's wife
"Some audiences see an all powerful character doing whatever they want and being in control as always positive, even what it harms everyone around them." Gee, who does that remind you of?
…i didn’t even think about that omg-
Who is it? I don't get it.
@@kitty.miracle Trump?
Never heard anyone say Homelander not a villain. I much better example would be Walter White from Breaking Bad or Vic Mackey from The Shield.
YOU DARE QUESTION THE LISAN AL GAIB?! 😤
When Paul takes the water of life, he can only see a narrow vision where he and the Fremen are victorious. He does everything for the survival of the Fremen. He only took the water of life after he didn't forsee Sietch Tabr's destruction. After seeing this narrow vision, he enacts it to protect the Fremen and the love of his life: Chani. He knows how she feels but loves her enough to do what he never wanted to do: lose her and become the messiah. His last words to her in the movie are: I will love you so long as I breathe. He loves Chani so much that he's willing to marry Arulan and become what she can't stand just to protect her. He only wants the power to protect who he loves. He has no other motive to lead than to go through the narrow victory which he forsaw.
Paul is not a hero nor a villain. Paul is someone who, with all that brain power, fails to control the size of the wave he creates. It’s truly beyond his ability to stop it, and he knew that from the moment his visions became clear. It is going to happen. It is happening! It can not be avoided!! What can Paul do about it? The same as we all would. All fail to see that after Paul’s revenge on house Harkonnen and the emperor. He was done. However; If he does not deliver on his promise, the Fremen jihad will be & uncontrolled flame. The Fremen will burn everything to ashes. Paul is only there to give directions, and mitigate the death toll. Like a flood threatening to swallow a town. You can’t stop it. But you “might” be able to alter its path.