BEST Arrow SETUP For WESTERN HUNTING // MFJJ and WILD BILL .. Super fun discussion from Ironwill Broadheads Owner, Iron Will Bill and Podium Archer's MFJJ. The guys sit down to talk about the THE BEST ARROW SETUP FOR western hunting and archery. #ElkShape #PodiumArcher #IronWillBill
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Fresh off our trip to Alaska… whooeeew we got some stuff to share! In the meanwhile any vid ideas for us or things ya’ll would like to see?
Speaking of TAC, talk about the gear you will bring. Sleeping, cooking, and just the miscellaneous stuff that you have learned that makes the trip easier.
Hahaaha!!! Rick and Morty for the win!
The ultraview hinge 2 review
Love videos like this
Stalking techniques for different game video?
Simple equation: KE = 1/2mv^2 -- Following the math velocity has more effect on KE than mass. If you can shoot them higher velocity arrows matter more than heavier arrows. Plus, additional bonus, you get a flatter trajectory. I like to call it LASERs or Lawn Darts. LASERs are better and I'll take that any day over throwing logs. (Been there, done that.) With a fast bow, nice sharp broadhead, and a micro diameter arrow you can blow through pretty much anything.
The problem with this is velocity is measured at the bow, not the target/impact. Heavier arrows maintain velocity at greater distances than lighter setups.
@@jordanmotruk5827 correct. I've heard that the crossover distance where the heavier arrow's speed is greater than the lighter arrow, from the same bow, is almost 200 yds. You're sound in theory, but it's not applicable to hunting scenarios.
I’ve just found your channel this past month an you an mfjj are my go too YT channels now thank you for the info an all the teachings your giving all us bow hunters many thanks
Good discussion, my takeaway is somewhere in the middle is perfect. I started off shooting sub 400 grain arrows, drank the Ashby koolaid and built 600 grainers, and now I’m dialed back to about 540. My next setup will likely be right at 500. That feels like a sweet spot between acceptable velocity/trajectory, and penetration.
I dialed back to 500 last year, 508 to be exact lol.. but shooting flatter and further and haven’t looked back !
Great stuff guys. Thought for a second there was going to be a throw down when Bill said there was no difference between offset and helical vanes.
Awesome guys, with awesome discussions!!
Great video,you are right on,i have had top pros tell me that spine checking wasnt necessary.I new they were wrong since i have been useing the same equipment since ithet ist came out at Tims Archery.Home of Steel
Magnum bows,very important info.Thanks
Man I love these arrow videos!
I hunt in Colorado. We have high winds and it can be a pain. I have found for me. That going with a mechanical tip and a weight of the hole set up to way about 401 grains on my scale ( slightly over) works best for me. I have but not tried the regular three blade broadhead because I fear the wind will take it. I have used them in the past in places where the wind is minimal but never took the chance here.
Very good information. @MFJJ I am still using a biscuit for now. I just bought a new Bear Legit and getting the timing set right and getting rid of the nasty tears in paper bare shaft tuning. I think I got it figured out though. Probably graduate to a QAD here soon. It will be my first drop away rest. So I'll be like the big kids. LOL.
Flip Side: Best arrow setup for Eastern/Southeastern bowhunters for Deer and Hogs. I found 550-650 grains at 28.5” 70-75# draw with an aggressive 3 degree helical in Blazers to suit me best. Large COC fixed blade (IW Wide, Simmons Swam Shark, Slick Trick Grizz) Average shot for me is 22 yards. Navigating through a lot of vines and small foliage more often than not unfortunately. Stuff you can’t see through your peep at full draw at 15-25 yards...
Ive tried heavy and slow and I've tried light and fast. Light and fast is what killed more for me. Animals move. They move alot, especially when they hear something weird. And with a 400 grain arrow I've had full pass through 4/5 times. Which is the same pass through rate i had with 550gr. And the animal ducking the arrow was 50/50 with 550gr. And zero with 400 gr.
I actually don't use a drop away rest at the time. Have thought about it but due to most my shots are 20-30yrds I haven't changed over yet.
Velocity decreases the further away you are. Light arrows degrade dramatically at longer distances. A chronograph takes the speed leaving the bow. A radar will tell the truth. Its staggering.. 550 grain all day. I shoot 70pnd at 30" so speed isn't to critical. If i shot 26" and 50pnd i may lighten up my arrow otherwise heavy all day. Wild Bill rolls his eyes when those boys try to convince him light arrows are just fine 🤣
Light arrows are fine. Remember that on the Ashby study, weight is last. You don't need 550 grains for whitetails, you been drinking the ranch fairy juice.
I think the clearance discussion on shorter vanes is for cables and rest, not inflight? I’m having a tough time deciding on this right now, mainly due to clearance, then weight.
since Dan has already tinkered with Dialed Archery Axos bowsight, it would be cool to see yall test DCA Super Sabre vanes, guy that makes those is one of the engineers for Dialed and makes really cool stuff
word!!
Yes sir! I'd be glad to send you some Dan! Just let me know where to send them.
I've been hunting with a 519gr fmj since FMJs surfaced. I've checked out a lot of Broadheads and mite try Bill's broads.. they spendy though.
I have said it once, i'll say it...dropping early, just starts my day off on the right foot. Funny enough, I'm setting up my bow around the example Tim asked, so i will know how much my arrows will weigh.
So with the saying of speed to beat the animals movement. What to me matters is sound of the bow and sound of the arrow. I'd like to see more on that.
What is your thoughts about dual spinned Arrows such as Carbon Express pile Driver DS 250 28"draw length they are already fleched so no bare shaft tuning what would Ranch Ferry do?🤔
Take a straight clamp offset bump to arrow and mark the contact gently arc that area on a belt sander boom helical
27 1/2" at 61#'s:: 452 grains. I like the resulting pin gap which for me makes it easier to see each pin.
if you're happy, we're happy
What spine are you shooting? 400? 340?
What’s the vane mfjj is trying out? Great content guys!
Are you all going to the NWMC this year at Steven pass?
the fact that Bowman is coming with actual mathematics and science he automatically has a little more credibility over Josh lol I hate to say it but it's true he's 100% right about the fact that if you're shooting lighter arrow it slows down quicker it's like trying to bat a ping pong ball versus a baseball. sure the exit velocity will be quick with the ping pong ball but because the baseball has more mass it will hold velocity for longer. obviously there's more that comes into play like broadheads and shot placement. before I become too long-winded I just want to see both of you guys have a point and I think it comes down to personal preference. I think we got to get MythBusters involved here
I'm sitting at a 29.5 inch arrow, 300 spine, 50 grain insert and 100 grain broadhead, w a nocturnal knock, and I'm sitting at 475 grains. Believe I'm at 65lb draw. Just had these made yesterday. Is 12% foc not enough? Should I go 125 grain head 14% foc?
I wish you guys would do a video with mfjj on arrow spine as you cut it down.. like does a 350 spine go to a 300 spine if you cut say 5 inches off it..
MFJJ...what vanes are those that you mentioned you were testing and were a little lighter?
Enjoyed the discussion, especially about the fletching. Right handed shooter. Wondering why the arrow typically leaves the string rotating left but then reverses and rotates right due to the fletching. If winding your bowstring in the opposite direction alleviates this (the arrow leaves the string rotating right and keeps rotating right), why don’t we always set up bows to do this? It must be detrimental to arrow stability to turn left and then right, no? Also, IW, thanks for the right single bevel solid 200’s!!! Love them! (30” 72lbs, 250 spine, 545gr)
Here’s the deal, contrary to all of the theories as to what causes inital shaft rotation, There is no singular sets of rules that can be effectively applied to determine initial direction of rotation across platforms and shooters. Between hand torque at the grip, twist on the d-loop at anchor, string harmonics(another rabbit hole), spine seam differences inside carbon shafts, etc. I used to fletch by bareshaft spin when tuning a fresh dozen, most go right & some left, now I just mark them so I know and almost never see a difference in practice with fixed heads. 85lb@30” 840gr+- Im comfortable hunting to 55y, but I live in fl so I can’t see sh!t past 30😂
So if your arrow is rotating left a left offset or left Helical will optimize your stability instead of pausing and Knuckle balling. So what the Elk Shape guys do is shoot bare shaft with silver sharpie at 12 0' clock position at 4 feet and see what direction your arrow spins.. Then fletch accordingly. Left for counter clock wise and Right for Clockwise..Not sure how much it matters , But from a Engineering perspective makes the most sense.. Dan and MJ talk about it several times! CALLED CLOCKING YOUR ARROW
Genuine question. How many large animals (ie. elk, moose) have you taken MFJJ? How many have you wounded? One thing MFJJ doesn’t mention is the lighter your arrow the LOUDER your bow upon release and the louder in flight. Sound is what spooks game. Consider vane choice and a non vented broadhead to make your arrow quiet through the air. Additionally, the time difference in air between let’s say at 50 yards between a 280 grain arrow and a 250 grain arrow is minuscule. The noise of the bow releasing and arrow in flight is what spooks wary game such as whitetail. Large game are way less prone to string jump. Light arrows will shed velocity much faster than heavier ones and upon a heavy bone impact will perform much less ideally. FYI I shoot over 650 grain arrows with single bevel broadheads and have had double digit pass through on large game. Know your range and the trajectory of your arrow won’t matter. Get as close as possible and take responsible shots.
You guys need to try the DCA Super Sabre vanes. I’m having great success with my IW SB 125’s out to 100 yards. They are quiet!!!!!
Just let me know and I'll get some out to you guys. They are designed and tested using computational fluid dynamics, a LabRadar, a custom-made wind tunnel, and use the same formulas NASA uses to actually calculate stability. I 100% know the science behind it.
@@dcacustomarrows1816 I was totally thinking I was drinking more Kool-aid but was shocked at how quiet the arrow was after one shot. Add the fact they steer my IW SB’s so damn good. Great job.
@@tobymatkowski Really appreciate it man! I put my heart, soul and brain cells into these.
Can you look into Firenock’s aerovane and aeroconcept arrows? I’d like to get your opinion on their rotational lift vs drag, etc system. 👊🏻❤️
I use firenock aerovanes av2 & 3 as well as their nocks. everything from firenock is top notch I have used.. issue I have with their vanes are they are brittle in cold weather and break. you can install the vanes with a bietzenberg jig you just need to buy the firenock clamp to be able to install the av3, although I've tried it without their clamp and got good results. the firenock jig is fantastic and saves me money as I can align the vanes up with the laser alignment and just replace one vane instead of all of them. have fixed countless.arrows of friends/buddies. the nocks are very durable and my personal fav. Their lighted nocks are the best but they are a pain to install the shock cap in the shaft, even when following their directions. if I installed 12 caos, 2 would cause me issues. just finicky. but they are very durable, repairable and easy to shut off.
@@caninphx Great review. Thank you. I agree with their nocks. That’s what I’m using as well. I’m just now learning about their other stuff but I don’t see many archers talking about their vanes and wanted to get more opinions/experiences. So, you are finding more rotation and less drop at longer distances?
Hi guys what do ya think of the new DCA CUSTOM ARROWS SUPER SABRE VANES...🤔
Great video and discussion. My arrows are about 460 grains and shoot around 260 fps (27.5 inch draw). If there was a bow that shot my arrow faster, I would increase the arrow's weight (starting with the broadhead) in order to keep approximately the same speed, as I am comfortable with 260 fps and shoot very well at that velocity. My bow is pretty quiet too. Is my way of thinking bad? Does MFJJ shoot equally well at 60 yards with 385 grain arrows flying like lasers or 450 grain arrows at a more manageable velocity? Would he shoot better at 60 yards with 550 grain arrows?
Great questions. I’d love to experiment the the way arrow weight affects long range accuracy.
Man why you always gotta dog my whisker biscuit 😂 just switched to a hamskea so I could quit feeling attacked by you all the time 😂👍🏼
About helical. Why doesn’t someone design a Strong helical clamp, that has a slight concave shape to it to help create better stick on the ends, and potentially create the ability to push helical further that the aae 8 degree jig?
Thought they have proven this time after time after time man that no matter how fast and light or how heavy they can still duck or move no matter what I want to pound threw that light ass arrow will Wobble like crazy as it goes into the animal therefore taking away all penetration
Very true. I have a pretty fast bow and I've had deer jump the string at 11 yards..... As far as penetration - the deer never know they've been hit from my experience... All have dropped within feet of impact
I'm a Midwest white tail hunter and I would like to go on my first elk hunt in september in 2023. My current set up is a 55# at 28" with a 400 spine arrow using an aluminum insert and a 100 grain fixed 3 blade head, overall grain weight is right below 400. I'm curious if this more than enough to take down an elk. So far its been very successful with whitetails from anywhere from 8 to 30 yards.
50 yard for sure. Not sure about longer distance
Elk are extremely tough. I hit a bull at 10 feet double lung with no broken ribs, and he still took my arrow 50yds before he stopped. Hit him with a follow up shot too. 70# easton axis 340/100g slick trick 4 blade.
Your setup is ideal if your shot hits the vitals.
IM 60 POUNDS 34 INCH DRAW. Shooting a Atlas. What is the perfect arrow set up for me?
Sorry, I'm the wierdo not using a drop away rest. Tried one, went back to the Whisker Biscuit. THE HORROR! LOL! I'm a fan of KISS (keep it simple stupid) for hunting setups. One less thing to worry about. I have two bows, both older Elites, use same arrows, same setups. I've been bowhunting and shooting bows for over 25 years, found a system I like. I know Dan says to ABT but sometimes if it ain't broke... :)
Oh shit did i just hear Ironwill will be making his own vane! Take my money!
hints
I just saw a video on tik tok of Mohican Sneak broad heads and they look different than anything I’ve ever seen. What do you think about them?
I'm trying to figure out a arrow that would work for my setup. Bowtech sr6 29" draw 72 lbs. Been tinkering with axis 340s but think I need to go to 300 spine. Right now my shaft length is 28 3/4" 100 grain point 5.5" bohning wrap with TAC driver 2.75 3 vane left helical. Any suggestions on this length and draw weight configuration would be helpful.
Oh I primarily hunt mule deer and elk here in washington. Average shots are 60 yards.
Sounds like by your specs you're right on the line between 340 and 300. If intend to run a little longer shaft then a 300 would work, or if intend to go up in weight at all you have to switch to 300. But I'm not expert sir
What about a 26.5 draw Length at 70 pounds?
Im shooting a 28” DL 60 pound draw. 420 grain arrow at 272 fps with a muzzy or slick trick fixed BH. What do you guys think about that setup for deer and elk?
You're very "Close" but, "Perfect" is, a 435 to 450 grain, Arrow, IMO ( 50 - 60 grains of, insert / FACTs, up Front ) 100 to125 gr. Head, Stiff enough Shaft, w/ 3 Vanes, 2.7 to 3 inches Long, 3 Degree's of Helical, for 60 lb. Bows. You already HAVE, some, "Good', B-H's ! The Grim Reaper, Micro Hades, 125 gr. would also Be, a very Good, choice. A tiny Bit Heavier arrow, just "Works",.. IF,.. Elk are on, the Menu !
I shoot a light arrow utilizing a Montec G5 100gr out of my 73# RPM 360 at 29" shoots out to 80yards with more than enough penetration to rip thru a truck doors & washing machines in my back yard all the time - Give me the Lazer beams !!!!
I've watched 1:48 of this video and I am hugely enlightened. MFJJ and I have the same problem: the arrow doesn't always hit the place that we want it. His conclusion is that he has a perfectly tuned bow, he shoots well, it must have been something beyond his control...the animal moved! I look at the last buck that I shot, with one of the three blades of the broadhead in the very back of the heart, and say I'm an idiot who can't shoot; so I'll shoot for two hours a day so that my next mistake won't be for a lack of effort. He thinks: get there faster. I think: aim further forward with something bigger. If only someone would record the actual data about actual archery kills.
MMJJ. I need you to send me a pause 4 set at 30.5 draw so I can update from my hori-zone vulture that I have tuned to the best and can nail at 22.4 meters but reall need to fulfil my dreams with a phase 4 set up by you. Thanks for all your unbais info I have leaned over the last 6 months of compound bows. My horoscope-zone is a joke to all of you but it’s all I got. I’m not into hunting koalas and wombats but to will kill every fox and rabbit on my property. All the help I can get would be much appreciated. Love your work!
The difference in time to target between light and heavy arrows is almost a nonstarter with how close it is, were not talking seconds different here. Flatter trajectory is the only benefit i can really get behind, not everyone is using range finders, game moves etc, i get that. But what about wind? You guys shooting out west long range in the wind, whats working better?
Heavier arrows work better in the wind, but the truth is all arrows suck in the wind regardless of velocity, diameter, fletching configuration, etc. I don't bow hunt on windy days, too much risk of a non-fatal injury to the animals. The reality is that bow hunting when there is enough wind to affect your shot placement is not a great idea in terms of ethics.
Ok….. playing with all this right now Shooting a PSE Mach 1 at 80lbs and 30 inches Arrow is a victory VAP SS 250 spine at 490g Currently settled on a DCA super sabre with a pretty heavy left helical Shoots great out to about 70ish yards…. But at 80 yards I’m starting to see some instabilities Is that the helical causing a parachute effect or is it a tuning issue? I know you can’t answer without see it…. But what are your thoughts?
probably parachute affect, just try and record your arrow travel easiest and cheapest way would be slow motion video record with phone at impact
@@sjmonty19 that is a great idea…. Thank You 🤙🏻
Just use 2.5 degree helical on it Noah. If you still are seeing parachuting out that far your spine might be a little weak. Depending on how much point weight you are running. Also if you are seeing this with a broadhead it is pretty common with a head wider than 1" according to my data with a LabRadar.
@@dcacustomarrows1816 yeah…. I should probably follow the directions …. I know
@@noahbyrne2402 Ha ha. No worries. Directions are just one person's opinion.
Animals are going to move, you can't beat them. You cannot predict how much they will move and in what directions. Lots of slo mo vids out that show this. You can shoot faster and miss faster.
MFJJ is incredibly smart but I think he puts too much emphasis on velocity. Let’s take 300 fps and 265, since these were the speeds they mentioned. 60 yards is 180 feet, that means an arrow going 300 fps will take .6 seconds to impact and the 265 fps will take .68. That’s less than a tenth of a second difference, which isn’t nothing. However, if you take into account the lighter arrow slows down faster and the animals aren’t jumping the string, they’re jumping the arrow, that number reduces to practically nothing
But that's a DRAMATIC difference in trajectory
@@jackbuendgen389 that’s honestly a fair point, but that’s a separate argument
I would like to see proof of the lighter arrows losing speed faster than the heavy arrows not saying you’re wrong im just saying the things i have looked into a 450 grain arrow falls off the same way a 600 grain arrow does
@@tylerharty5537 it’s physics. The faster something moves the more drag it creates, and the lighter an object is the less resistance to drag it has. Think of a ping pong ball vs a rock the same size. Here’s a cool video if you want real life evidence. Long story short in 60 yards a 700 grain arrow lost 10 fps and a 350 grain arrow lost 60. Obviously those are both extreme ends of the spectrum but they shot a bunch of different arrow weights kzhead.info/sun/jaetoJWLpYKinJE/bejne.html
@@tylerharty5537 the proof is in the math. Greater the velocity the greater the frictional force and the faster objects slow down. Let off the gas pedal driving down the freeway you loose 10mph alot faster than when your driving 25 mph.
So an arrow shot at 60 yards out of a 280fps bow takes .643 seconds with no speed lost and a 240 FPS takes .75 seconds so .107 of a second longer I think I would take penetration over speed. FYI
that's whats cool is you get to choose your setup!
Josh is 30 inch draw so he can shoot anything as long as its tuned
no doubt
The amount of drag force added by a lighter arrow going faster is pretty negligible for penetration on a 60#-70# bow at hunting ranges. The trajectory and speed make you way more deadly than some ridiculous heavy slow arrow unless you’re shooting huge diameter expandable. Mathew’s and MFJJ know what they are talking about when they say KE is the main thing that matters. I have a mechanical engineering background and it’s hilarious hearing all these people swear by 550gn arrows.
It’s funny how you guys never even got into this diameter of arrows specially when it comes to drag and drop off on the Arrow.
Dan will win TAC i'll put 100 on Dan assuming i get 100-1 odds..
Am I the only dude that uses feathers with a compound?
With heavy poundage and speed it doesnt work I believe.
@@JJ79_ it works perfect man. They fly way better than plastic. Only problem is getting them wet, and you do have to replace them every once in a while
@@mikeguy9668 I used to run feathers for compound. Just haven't messed with it in a long time... maybe on my next tinker sesh.
I use feathers because also shoot trad and have tons. Got a deal on like 1000 shield cut 2.5 Inch orange so use them on everything lmao. Wash the arrow off after a deer and gtg.
Nope, no drop away...Whisker Biscuit all day long...
Shooting sticks. I’d rather shoot through an animal rather than just to an animal
Clown show. Whether hunting whitetail back east, or elk out west, I’ve killed a pile of critters with a 392 gr total arrow weight at over 300 fps and no foc and all that other bs guys are doing. The critical part is having a tuned bow and a good fixed head
Kinetic energy=penatration
Nope. Momentum = penatration.
Neither! Sharp points is what you need for penetration!
@@darcyfloreani9722 momentum and a sharp head
I love this debate