AJ Ordnance "Thomas" - A .45 Locked by Grip Alone
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Designed by one Frank Thomas Jr. in the 1970s, this pistol was produced by the AJ Ordnance company of Covina California, and named after its creator. It was designed to be a concealed carry pistol chambered for .45 ACP ammunition without needing a manual safety. Thomas wanted to avoid exposed hammers and manual safeties, which he saw as being potential failure points and potential places for a pistol to snag on the draw. So, he created a single-stack .45 with a long DA-like trigger and an internal striker instead of a hammer. What makes the pistol truly unique is its locking system. It is delayed blowback, using a pair of wedges that the slide must push down before it can open. These wedges engage the slide only when the shooter grips the gun, by way of a grip safety type lever in the backstrap.
This results in a gun that is rather unpleasant to shoot, as the action of cycling slaps the grip lever back into the hand with each shot. Only about 600 of the guns were made, although I was unable to determine exactly why production ended so quickly. It's not so much a surprise that it didn't see greater success, but rather a question of which potential problem caused it to fail commercially (or if it was all of them acting together...).
NOTE: I mixed up a piece of footage, and put the wrong sight picture clip in at 1:44. Sorry! That sight picture is a WALAM 48, not the Thomas.
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The rare pain-operated firearm.
Like the liberator eh?
That's called a mosin
My k98 likes to punch me in the cheek bone ever time.
Only this one has the pain as the locking system
Hello everyone and welcome to Battered Gun owners Anonymous.
A magazine safety but no out of battery safety? Holy misplaced priorities, Batman!
According to the patent the gun is safe because the striker spring is stronger than the recoil spring, so the striker can only be pulled back if the grip safety/locking mechanism is engaged and the slide cannot move. If the trigger is pulled while the grip safety is not engaged the slide will move to the rear, and the gun cannot fire. Probably explains why the trigger pull is so heavy. Of course the final design could differ from the patent, it would be interesting to see someone test this feature to see if it works as described.
Ethan Around 2:55 you can see Ian pull the trigger with the locking wedge disengaged, and the slide does move. Still be worth testing with a primer-only blank to confirm that the movement of the slide is enough to keep it from firing.
@@bfrobin446 Yep, that's what made me think it might be intentional, it seemed almost too obvious to be an oversight. Some kind of blank or dummy cartridge test is probably appropriate, it would avoid damage to the gun if the system does not work as described in the patent.
@@ethan0a The gun might have been designed to be safe with brand new springs, but when springs get old and worn out, they don't behave. So maybe Ian's gun in the video doesn't have brand new springs. Just a case of ordering brand new striker and recoil springs from the manufacturer, I'm sure! :-) (Good luck with that...)
I imagine they did the safety specifically because people might try 1911 mags in the pistol.
The only pistol with a legitimate strength stat requirement?
That actually makes a weird kind of sense. You need some beefed up fingers to pull that trigger 6 times.
@@Andri474 But you cant have too much strength, because then it won't cycle.
As someone who has a grip-strength-hand-skin-medical-problem-type-thing you'd be surprised how much of a thing this is. First time I was handling a stiff gun at a range I went from "this is fine" to "oh jeez this is damaging my hands" very quickly....
According to the patent the recoil from firing pushes the gun into the user's hand, which keeps the grip safety pressed. Once the bullet has left the barrel the recoil force will start to reduce, taking pressure off the grip safety and reducing the friction between the locking wedges and the slide and eventually allowing the slide to move to the rear. They don't provide figures, but if the recoil is what provides most of the force keeping the lock engaged then strength probably isn't much of a factor.
Don't forget about the Salvator-Dormus.
Ah, yes, precisely what I wanted: A gun that is not only hampered by poor handling, but actively punishes it.
It reinforces the fundamentals of CQC
Looks like the guy saw a Makarov and went, "I want this to be stupid."
Ok...
⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻ Ok...
When the picrew avatar user thinks he has a right to speak
@@overlyobsolete2797 damb
I know there are occasional errors every now and then with the descriptions of these videos, but a 'single-stank .45' might be among the funniest.
This gun looks like the massive "Makarov" in Stalker
Holy crap thats exactly what it looks like. I knew it looked familiar.
at first glance i went "ooh a metal VP-70".. hilariously... with similar trigger pull issues.
I lost mine in a Springboard... :(
@@hooptiej it reminds me of an oversized PPK minus the hammer.
The Sr1-MP?
That seems like a handgun that was visited by the Good Idea fairy.
I,d say the same!
The Good Idea Fairy had her head misplaced that day.
The Good Idea Fairy had her head misplaced that day.
Or possibly the Green Fairy.
Reminds me of the "Good Idea, Bad Idea" characters from The Animaniacs. "Good Idea, playing cops and robbers in the park... Bad Idea, playing cops and robbers in the bank..." "Good Idea, putting a lever on the grip of a CCW that acts as a safety... Bad Idea, putting a lever on a grip of a CCW that acts as part of the locking mechanism..."
Literally every other semi auto when limpwristed: fails to cycle AJ Ordinance: slide probably flies off and hits you in the face
I don't know which would be worse, an OOB discharge or the slide flying off the gun.
@@dbmail545 With this, maybe both?
Pavlov's Pistol, it teaches you not to do that faster than any other.
Slide fits over the barrel and disassembles over the front; it's not flying off the back. I'll bet it's snappy as all hell; and probably bulges/ruptures cases.
@@dbmail545 I would say flying slide might be worse. During my forensic science course I saw a skull of a man who decided to make his own gun (9 Makarow), and used car engine valve as a lock with firing pin inside. He soldered it to the grip, and I'm quite sure this technology has a lot do with the fact that I was watching his cracked eye socket at Uni. It's true, like Mr. Stone mentioned that slide fits over the barrel, but I think that with this type of construction everything can happen - locking mechanism might be polished, cuts on the slide crack, barrel assembly might crack as well (imagine handloads). Yes, it little far-fetched, but who knows?
"thors pistol" suggests an alternate history that sounds very interesting..
I have a feeling that Thor wouldn't go for a hammerless pistol. Not really his style...
@@Sableagle Give Hulk a 1-bore revolver, see where it takes us.
@@yocapo32 What about 13mm Jackal pistol? Or 30mm single shot rifle?
The true hand cannon!
Wouldn’t it be a Finnish Lahti in some ridiculous Hellsing caliber, because he’s Norse?
My dad used to own one of these that he'd bought brand new. I remember shooting it when I was a kid. The DAO trigger stacked quite noticeably, but otherwise, it was a pleasant enough gun to shoot. I wish he'd never sold it, as I'd love to still have it for its novelty value. I wouldn't carry it though, and not for any of the shortcomings mentioned here. The problem with this "locking" system is that it makes immediate action for a malfunction difficult -- and maybe impossible under stress. You'd have a stoppage, and try to tap, rack, and reaquire, and you wouldn't be able to rack the slide until you'd shifted your grip off that not-a-grip safety lever, which could be pretty awkward. I remember dad's gun being pretty reliable, at the range, and I can't say we ever had that issue, but it's always a possibility of course.
That's its fatal flaw. No one wanted to take the chance.
This makes me feel better about my hi point
@MVia haha. XD never owned one then I imagine everyone who says negative things about hi-point has never owned one. I've had the same hi-point c9 for 10 years now and have not had to replace a single piece.
I'm not sure anything aside from a zip 22 will make a hi point just visually look good from comparison. However, I'd only say it's worse than this thing aesthetically-- a hi point may be an ugly duckling, but they go bang when you want them to without making your hand into part of the locking mechanism. Yeesh. Looking at the top of that grip lock, I'm betting Ian is gonna get the base of his thumb pinched something serious.
@@appalachianexploration5714 The only things wrong with HiPoints are the aesthetics and disassembly. Other than that, it is a fine pistol.
It shouldn't.
Someone did a video where they shot the slide of a Hi-Point with another pistol, hitting it in the ejection port, and the Hi-Point *still worked*. Hi-Points may be ugly and heavy, but they don't need tight tolerances to function.
I went to high school with the guy whose dad worked at that place and basically told me that one day his dad got up went to work and the doors were locked and that was basically the end of it
That sounds like a money or legal problem or both ..
“Mechanical safeties can sometimes break” yeah so can your hand after firing this!
Hands can heal ;)
@@hphp31416 failed parts can be replaced :D
Man on the Range upgrades people upgrades!
When the auto generated subtitles mistake “Thomas” and goes with “hummus”.
James Veitch: HUMMUS IS GOING TO BE BIG!
To be fair, my actual human ears heard Hummus too the first time lol
“This is actually a ballester Molina mag” Yes Ian, we know you have a ballester, no need to remind us
The part that surprises me is that someone presumably tested a prototype... and thought that going to production was a good idea! 😵😨😁
In the 1970s, the Thomas was created: a more expensive and complex Hi-Point.
You forgot more dangerous . . .
Hi-Point doesn't damage your hand as you shoot it. only hurts to look at, but only the pistols.
I don't like being a part of the locking mechanism :D
Thats the best reason not to get one :D
That looks really, really snappy.
...kind of like a Jennings J-22 on steroids....
Imagine how "snappy" it would be if you didn't hold the backstrap in properly...
Seems like it would've been a safer and more sensible solution if the grip safety actually _also_ was a grip safety and not just a locking mechanism. Doesn't look like it would've been that hard to do that modification either: it could use the same funtionality as the mag safety. Still, I guess something like the P7 grip safety is a better way of doing this.
Looking at the patent that seems to be the intention of the design. The author specifies that the spring pushing the firing pin/striker forward must be stronger than the spring pushing the slide forward. They go on to say that this means the gun is unable to fire unless something is preventing the slide from moving to the rear. The locking mechanism engaged by the grip safety stops the slide from moving back, so when the user pulls the trigger the slide remains forward, and the firing pin is pulled back instead, allowing the gun to fire. The final design might differ from the patent, but I'd be interested to see whether the mechanism works as described.
So here's a better point; couldn't you make it so that the entire delay mechanism is _inside_ the gun, and engaged by the grip safety, so that it isn't actually fucking insane? I assume this would literally punch the grip safety/ actuating lever into your hand during every shot otherwise. There has to be an internal buffer otherwise, and if that's true then your hand is only engaging the delay mechanism via the grip safety
Way, way back, once upon a time, when I was skinny and had hair, I worked in lower Manhattan at the John Jovino company. I certainly remember this handgun. I really felt great in the hand. I, of course, wanted one. When I worked there, I was to young to have a pistol permit. Many handguns ago.
John M. Browning (Patron Saint of Firearms Design) creating the M1911: I'll put 3 safeties in it to make it almost idiot proof. AJ Ordnance creating the Thomas: Safety? What the foxtrot is that?
I imagine the QC department to be something like Spinal Tap's drummer
Goes to 11.
@@dobypilgrim6160 That was guitarist, not a drummer
what's the gun at 1:44, cuz it has a hammer and a safety? is it just for illustration or was there a footage mixup?
Looks like a Walther PP variant to me.
Ack! That is indeed a footage mixup; it's a Walther copy.
U N W A T C H A B L E
@@John.VanSwearingen Un believable
And the rear sight is pushed WAAAAY to the Left... I would be very worried about shooting a gun that shot that far to the right with sights centered.
The person who made this most likely builds sentries and dispensers for heavies
Tf2 reference ?
Never thought I’d see the “Trigger-finger-delay” from the 1891 Salvator-Dormus again.
"grip it right, or it will explode in your hand", the motto of a perfectionist-masochist.
This is probably one of the first handguns on this channel that I don't want, at all.
So most of the problems could have been fixed by making the "grip safety" also work like an actual grip safety?
The patent says it does, the striker spring is supposed to be stronger than the recoil spring, so unless those locking wedges are in place pulling the trigger should move the slide and not the striker, meaning you can't fire the gun without engaging the grip safety.
That would have converted the action into a direct blow-back operation. 45ACP is too powerful for this type of action. Usually .380ACP or 9x18 is the limit.
@@heiner71 How would it do that? They didn't suggest removing the delaying mechanism.
I SO want to see Ian pull the Thor's pistol gag at the range. I'd want one just to mess with my friends. Thor Ragnapistol! Thomas the Gankengine.
This has got to be an oddity out of Ian’s collection. One of those “it’s so bad it’s good” because of the unique locking systems. Thankfully that system is one of a kind.
Well, this is the last forgotten weapons video, Ian's going to die from an out of battery discharge trying to shoot this thing
I do like that you can get a good grip very high up on the grip of the firearm. The designer got that part right.
I came across a box full of prototypes for this, as well as several early prototype models. Had all the blueprints too. I sent an email with pictures of it, but it never went anywhere. Some collector bought the lot shortly after. Weird little guns, very uncomfortable to rack the slide.
Let me see if I got this right: the locking system relies on the backstrap being compressed and it isn't also a grip safety, but it has a magazine safety. The other way around would have made a much safer pistol: grip safety and no magazine safety, at least then it would be impossible to accidentally fire it with an unlocked breech.
But then you'd have an HK P7 variant...{!-{P
@@curtisbarrow7650 ....3 years earlier than the HK P7 was designed.
Concealed carry pistol: **exists** America: "Does it come in .45 ACP tho?"
STOPPIN POWAAAAAAAAAAH
@@anionleader Muh two world wars!
Maybe the .45 ACP is just that good.
@@derekakaderek I guess jt depends on whether you can use hollow points: .45>9mm (bigger hole in your target), but 9mm HP>.45 (comparable damage, but with higher capacity and easier to shoot)
Jovino in NYC was a dealer back in the day, he took pity on me when I transfered one many years later and sold me an original mag for $7
How did you like it ?
@@richardsolberg4047 Bad trigger pull.. did I say HEAVY trigger pull. But it never fails to go bang
I checked the patent, and it appears that the spring driving the striker forward is meant to be much stronger than the one driving the slide forward, so that if the trigger is pulled while the grip safety is not engaged the striker will not be pulled back, rather the weaker spring holding the slide forward will be compressed and the slide will move back. The patent explains that this is intended to render the gun unable to fire unless the grip safety/delayed blowback mechanism is engaged. The final product could of course differ from the patent, but I'd be interested to see Ian test whether this feature of the design functions as described. Edit: That probably explains the heavy trigger pull, the design requires the striker spring to be stronger than the recoil spring!
Thank you , Ian .
Ian i love the videos! Definitely one of my favorite channels on youtube! Keep it up man, love the content!
So wait, does this kick you in the hand when the slide cycles back and pushes those wedges down?
Sure as heck looks like it must. I want to see Ian fire this abortion.
Trigger slap sucks but palm slap followed by slide to the face seems just a bit worse.
@@kolaraaaskeet8027 I can't be sure but it looks like the blocks are double-pivoted and there's another spring they rock back down against, that would take all the force due to leverage and angle.
@@dbmail545 Fortunately he is going to later on, I cannot wait to see it.
If I recall correctly, this pistol is supposed to be fully-automatic, and was used only by Scout and Engineer Mercenaries.
Nasty combo and trigger system...
Watched them out of sequence but, I did totally enjoy the next video on this firearm.
Remember, the thought behind this is very similar to Salvator-dormus, the first semi-auto pistol which utilised trigger as delaying mechanism!
i have to say forgotten weapons is probably the most important channel on you tube it has so much historical and knowledge value
March 1978 Guns and Ammo did a piece on this gun. I haven't read it but it may offer light on why it didn't go far.
The noise Ian made pulling that tigger made my day 😆
Another great example of "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."
M1911: Is that my bro- Thomas: Hi cousin M1911:*pure inner destruction starts-*
Seeing guns like this really remind me how lucky we are know to have such great arms designers.
Salvator-Dormus 1891 delayed blowback, but in other place and slightly cleaned up.
I've wanting you to do this for a long time. I first saw a picture of the Thomas in an article about backup guns around 1981.The article just had mentioned the Thomas in passing and said it was "clunky and unreliable." I actually got to handle a used one at a local gun store.
I have a frame casting and slide for this gun I acquired in my purchase of Wilkinson Arms. I'm not sure what the connection was to Wilkinson Arms but I'm sure there was one since they were both in Covina at the time. I would not be surprised if Wilkinson produced the guns for AJ Ordnance based on the serial number position/font, and especially considering the similar naming convention.
Love all the vids
I just want to say, I don't *love* guns but I enjoy your channel for the marriage of history and engineering.
With how heavy that trigger pull is that’s enough of a safety by itself, no kid is gonna be able to pull that trigger
Just came back from the future. The shooting video is good
certainly a cool design
This is my grandfathers gun. He also designed a motor that was published in Motor Trend magazine ❤
Watching this, I am reminded of the H&K VP70Z. Primarily for the long heavy trigger pull required of the - not partially cocked striker - firing mechanism. For those unfamiliar with the VP70Z... although, brilliantly, the first polymer framed, high (18+1) capacity 9mm handgun - a dismal failure due to the horrendously bad trigger pull.
bad guns make us appreciate the effort put into the good ones
Also Good Mornin Ian!
What an absolute nightmare of a gun
This gives a whole new meaning to Grip-Safety! :D
This literally looks like an all metal Hi-point! That being said I'd rather have a Hi-point than this when shooting.
High points are all metal. Well if you can call zink metal
Can fire out of battery, can fire without any locking mechanism, but has a magazine disconnect. Solid design.
Very cool I’ve owned one of these for the last decade plus. Don’t shoot it much, but it’s well made.
I imagine the trigger pull isnt an issue, considering the flinch that occurs from you being the locking lugs
Tomorrow we get to see Ian's bravest shooting video yet!
Take all the elements of good handgun design and throw them out. I am really glad you are going to shoot this pistol, I am really curious how it feels to shoot. Better you than me, lol
I own one of these. It seems well made, but I have never fired it. I did take it apart once. I had to get a particularly strong friend to put it back together.
I have had actual nightmares about my pistol trigger pull being exactly like this gun.
Did not expect someone to think the Dormus pistol needed to make a comeback.
3:04 that is the grip safety. Your live relies on holding that in lol
So if you don't get a good grip when you draw it in a panic, it will explode and/or send a chunk of steel directly into your teeth. Lovely
That’s going to make your hand ring.
I like the idea.
If they made the locking mechanism a grip safety I could see this actually being a lot more popular, mostly because the trigger wouldn't be absolute ass in that case.
Everybody knows the ultimate concealed carry "gun": it's the pointy rock and barrel assembly.
I remember reading about this pistol when it was released. Was supposedly so smooth it would feed empty cases.
Survival of The Fittest : The Gun Where the weak get a chunk of steel to the face
You know a gun is good when the very act of pulling the trigger takes the gun out of battery
Yay i was waiting for this one, thank u Ian, amt backup in 45??
This reminds me of the Salvator-Dormus with the trigger-based delayed blowback
It's like the gun version of the iPhone 4. "It's not an engineering flaw, you're just holding it wrong."
I have one of these in mint condition and the frame has an unusual purple tint.
The grips say hipoint the slide says either ppk or makorov with the boberg trigger
Looks like it can be a good secondary paired with a scattergun.
alot of viewers have awesome skillsets, i'm surprised you haven't been made into a cartoon with a different gun every episode.
This reminds me of trigger slap on an AK, except going into the palm of your hand. I'm betting this isn't the funnest thing in the world to shoot.
If memory serves me correctly the follower looks like the original Wilson Rogers magazine follower. I remember having a mag with a similar follower but I may be wrong on the manufacturer.
Now do a review of the AMT 45 DAO. Interesting pistol..I carried one for nearly 20 yrs.
The gun you give to your opponent in a duel.
I really hope you get your hands on a Delta AR "Top Gun" pistol, which is an italian, hand-made gun based on the CZ-52 and it comes in .45 ACP, .40S&W and 9mm PARA. They only made about 300 of these.
This is a pistol which would have benefitted from some more development. Interesting concept.
It would be cool to get some high speed video of it being fired to see if the mechanism actually delays the blowback at all.
Have a good 4th of July, one and all.
This thing looks like you had to draw a Walther PPK/S from memory and did an ok job.