The Mystery Of Cleopatra and Arsinoe | Portrait of A Killer | Timeline
2018 ж. 25 Мау.
3 822 085 Рет қаралды
For 2,000 years almost all evidence of Cleopatra had disappeared - until now. Neil Oliver investigates the story of a ruthless queen who would kill her own siblings for power.
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I remember reading somewhere Cleopatra wasn't that beautiful that her allure was more about her personality and the fact she was so well read, out spoken, speaking many languages for a women of her time, it intrigued the men around her.
You can see her image on old coins that are on google images they said she looked plain Hollywood made her the glamorous Queen and we have no idea what her siblings are like yet in these clips her older brother looks a lot like one of the actors that played Tutankhamun
I believe she had big melons too.
Absolutely true. Theres a coin with cleopatras image on it and she does no look like your classic beauty. She also does not look anything like how she is so often portrayed.
There were different beauty standards back then though especially in Africa of all places.
Did it?
"Was Cleopatra One Of History's Biggest Killers?"... No. She just happened to be another ruler that killed. Just like her siblings. Just like many male rulers.
Quite
So true
That’s dark I would never
But that still makes her a killer like every other ruler then ye shall not kill and if she was the ruler they didn’t have to die because like I said she is the ruler which means she could have stoped it but she didn’t so she had to want to do it so yes she was a killer like every other ruler oh and each male that got killed she was Married to well not every male but most of them she had most every body killed and she knew she didn’t have to .
You can’t be the best ruler if you kill every one that stands by your side so really nobody was the best ruler because every body killed every body
"A ruthless Queen who would kill her own siblings for power" So.... like it's a normal day in the life of someone sitting on a throne?
Normal day in the life of a man in power
Augustus was a chess player ..a calculating man. He used the rules to win..He used his private Praetorian guard to kill cesarian son of Cesar to cancel his succession..a chess move. And defeat Anthony. a roman who would suicide when lost..Cleopatra was a Ptolemy..a greek and would not suicide..Augustus maligned Cleopatras' children in chains In Rome yet the roman citizens did take pity on them which Augustus did not plan
This Scot is biased..Cesar was a war criminal and a roman
@@dr.k.conorfoxx2122 Octavian had Caesarion killed but the praetorian guard didn’t exist yet. And Kleopatra being a Ptolemy implies she didn’t commit suicide? Try telling that to her uncle.
@@dr.k.conorfoxx2122 to today’s standards, please stop applying your morals to any other time period
Also, I love how she has been labeled as a killer while if she didn't do so, some of her sibling would kill her to take the throne
😨😨😨😨
Exactly drunk history had a good retelling of it
She only killed one sibling
@@ninjaked1265 Two.
So murder is okay if other people do it?
Both of Cleopatra’s sisters were ruthless. Her oldest sister poisoned her mother, exiled her father and took over. They arranged a husband for her and she thought he was gross and had him strangled. Crazy was the norm in that family.
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Kind of like the Kardashians of BCE.
Thats Whats 15 generations of deliberate inbreeding between brothers and sisters as well as growing up with a God Complex of you being the new godlike macedonian Pharaohs ruling over a majority of brown underlings who pray at you does to you. You become batshit crazy.
That’s a really fair explanation. It makes sense now.
They fail to mention that Cleopatra's sister plotted to kill her years earlier
Plotted? She literally had Achillas killed and took over the army of Ptolemy XIII so she could resume the siege of Alexandria that trapped both Julius Caesar and Cleopatra VII inside of the royal palace. That's why she was brought to Rome in chains and paraded in the triumph in the first place, before her exile to Ephesus in Anatolia. I wouldn't call it scheming so much as a direct assault and very open threat on the lives of both Caesar and Cleopatra.
@@ericconnor8251 Ay
yep Arsinoe technically defeated caesar.
Yeah and then Cleo had Marc Anthony drag her out and kill her on the steps of the temple of Ephesus . Ruthless as were all the inbred Ptolemy's . @@ericconnor8251
Exactly
I just can't get enough of Neil Oliver's stories and documentaries- he brings the ancient past alive like no one else. Thank you Mr. Oliver.
Booorrriiinnnvg hearsay
Toooo dramatic! I mean history is very compelling and interesting without trying to turn it into some freaking Spielberg movie. Complete with distracting overpowering music.
That woman was a black African woman why is she consistently portrayed as white.
Shame this presenter is now a right wing shock jock on GB News. What a fall.
@@mubirunyago9178 Actually Cleopatra was of the Ptolemy family. They were Greek. The lineage from after Alexander The Great conquered Egypt. I hear what you're saying - but that applies to the older dynasties.
Came for the learning, stayed for a Scotsman saying "murder" 🤣
Lmao it was entertaining
You have to say it like you mean it.
Murrrrdaaarrrr🥰
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣Brilliant
Seriously it's the accent that's more captivating then the content.. 😅
Cleopatra wasn't described by contemporaries as being beautiful. Her appeal came from her intelligence and charisma and power, the idea that she must have been beautiful came later. We have enough contemporary images that are definitely of her to have an idea of what she looked like, even. It always bugs me when things now harp on about her beauty when there's little to no contemporary evidence that she was famous for it at the time. edit: 3 years later and I still see responses to this comment on the regular. The idea that maybe she wasn't just the gold standard of beauty really seems to ruffle some feathers. People commenting with something like "but she was beautiful, checkmate" seemingly with the intention of bothering me really haven't been getting the point I was trying to make, and maybe I didn't express it clearly enough at the time. I'll clarify. If she was beautiful? That's great. Honestly good for her either way. The fact that she might have been beautiful doesn't bother me. My point is that she was not famous in her own time for her appearance. She was famous, and so successful, because she was intelligent, charismatic, and powerful. And she has been turned into a symbol of ideal beauty and seduction *and nothing else* in the popular imagination. Cleopatra was remarkable regardless of what she looked like.
@@book4jesus4life22 I mean she may have been! Beauty is definitely subjective and standards of beauty change over time and vary by culture. And I don't think contemporary depictions of her are at all unattractive. My point was more that her appeal was never described as coming from her appearance in contemporary sources.
Royal blood , beautiful spectacular, excellent grooming, spectacular jewellery with great charm and charisma: Cleo certainly charmed two Roman conquerors
Thanks!
She became “beautiful” once she became whitewashed. Total psyop.
@@michaelrainey9668 stop lol. She was a caucasian. 😂
Arsinoe was not just a simple teenage girl but a constant threat who tried to kill Cleopatra years ago. She had to be eliminated if Cleopatra wanted to stay queen. It´s as simple as that.
It is so simple yes.
What isn't so simple is... is it possible that Arsinoe cursed Cleopatra before she died?
@@CocoCece08 No.
A Scotsman reading a Roman source about Egyptian history - now I've seen everything
Well she was Greek after all so it's in keeping with the international theme.
I can't wait for a book or video of: Romans: greatest lies of centuries
Lolling!! Good One 🤣
Hahaha
@@conorduggan6682 Her Father was Macedonian. But, She was 100% Egyptian. And she died Egyptian with African blood.
Funny how they tried to portray Arsinoe as a martyr and innocently murdered while she herself tried to exile her very own sister to get the throne for herself. So no, Arsinoe is not innocent and she just taste her own medicine.
One source said that Cleopatra fled with her when she first went into exile in 49 BC. That meant later Arsinoe betrayed Cleopatra even though Arsinoe was also in danger from Ptolemy XIII and his court.
Cleopatra was an Egyptian queen and like any other ruler she killed people and got her hands dirty. Is it really that surprising to hear?
Sinfully Delighted I’m not surprised
Well said. In that era , it’s what had to be done. It was a very different world back then.
an imposter Egyptian ruler
Not every ancient ruler was a ruthless killer
@@taskforceknight9336 tell that to every ancient ruler
Cleopatra was a ruler. Of COURSE she was a killer. The fact that people seem to try and make women of history either a martyr or a bloody psychopath annoys me. Cleopatra would have HAD to kill, otherwise her rule could have been compromised.
You know what gets me annoyed? The fact that they wont even try to portray the characters correctly, im pretty sure Cleo wasnt white
@@saroopstuart4546 Cleopatra also had a crooked nose and lots of wrinkles. But she was Mediterranean colored she was a Greek after all.
@@saroopstuart4546 she was Greek. She had red hair. Did you miss the part about her family line only having ruled for a short period ( in respect to the age of the state at the time)?
It really bothers me when people want to change fact for personal preference.
not her own sister and family. no excuse
Interesting... so you’re basically saying you have no idea who’s bones it is but let’s pin it on cleopatra anyway! Because, why not? Thin... very thin...
She would be It's a skeleton
Ya and kinda boring. I wanted a historic story not a forensic analysis of skeletons and rubble.
Isnt that what historians usually when they want to prove a point??? Lmao
I don’t care WHO, killed WHOM lol as long as he keeps saying murder 😳😝
How do you prove who it is, when none of her other family members have been found ever??? How can they say they are related when they haven't even found Cleo or her parents 😖
Cleopatra is without a doubt one of the most well known, yet elusive historical figures!
Love your videos. ☺️
I always have a problem when they start off with a single theory and then seek the proof to support it whilst not even discussing other possibilities.
Carlottie Same, someone else mentioned in the comments that they're painting Arsinoe as the virtuous martyr and her sister as the conniving seductress, and I have to agree. I'm still waiting for the part where they at least look into whether it could have been anyone other than Arsinoe, which is the main difference between the examination of these poor bones versus other high-profile Egypt royal family remains.
I agree, it’s always dangerous to try and prove a very specific point, rather than trying to find out the truth by exploring possibilities. I feel here they were mislead, Arsinoe was probably 22 or even older when she died, not in tune with the skull they found. And using Plutarch as a serious source for Cleopatra, without commenting that his sources were Roman stories about Cleopatra and he himself had never seen her as she had died decades earlier, is dubious.
Exactly! Tell that to apologists!
And British documentaries frequently have a strong romanticized, drama-queen flavor to them. Many are the emotional equivalent of the British tabloids.
@@lorofcb3 ààà
Murder was part of the game with the pharaohs. It's hardly shocking
no it wasnt just with greek rulers, there arent alot of events in history pointing towards fratricide among egyptian pharaohs
@Abu Misir Rulers gain their right to do so by their ability to dominate in whatever way they can, be it mind games or brute force. Nobody has a right to rule anybody when it comes down to it.
And my point is that there is no such thing.
+Themrgoodmanners Just because it’s not recorded doesn’t mean it never happened often.
She was not Pharaoh.She was Greek Macedonia the Ptolemy dynasty
Cleopatra was a very intelligent woman, she spoke many languages, and knew how to get what she wanted. Be at peace Arsinoe. ✝
Actually all Ptolemiac males could speak many languages. It was part of the normal education for every boy. Cleopatra's father, decided to give her the same education as her brothers. Hence why she could speak many languages, just like all her male relatives.
But i hear she didn't wipe very well.
@@nathangent6921 I had to think about that for a few seconds, as i am an American. Nice one 👍
@@joeymartin7462 🙂👍
Why are you looking Arsinoe better than Cleopatra?
I think Cleopatra killed her siblings because she was in fear for her own life. Her sister tried to have Cleo killed too I think. I also think her brother tried to kill her too. Many royals did this sort of stuff back then all in name in the power which is sad. 😔😢I still think Cleopatra was so beautiful and intelligent for a female back then. I love her story.🌹🌹 🌹💐💐😎😎
To be honest Arsinoe was not a heroic figure nor a victim , she was a politician just like her sister . If Cleopatra didn't kill her first she would have done the same to her with no doubt , so don't exaggerate . And as was mentioned this was written 300 years after her death so it can't be fully accurate , and there are some details in Cleopatra's story have proved to be wrong recently for example she didn't Commit suicide
Amira M wait. She didn't commit suicide? Thanks for telling me
Well she was a kid during the rebellion and was in exile, Rome made sure she could never come back, her death seemed more personal than anything else.
+Valenthyne Actually Arsinoe was in her late teens at the time of the Alexandrian war.
Fabian Hale how can you be so sure? She could have been anything between 11 and 18 in 48 BC.
Because according to history Arsinoe was younger than Kleopatra but older than Ptolemy XIII.
She was not a killer.. She was just fighting for her throne like any other king...
I, too, appreciate Neil Oliver's delivery and voice. He appears to be steeped in drama, and he delivers it when telling the tales of history.
I don't need drama in a documentary. Just the supposed story and supposed evidence.
Can I just point out that while Cleopatra was growing up she would have been taught (as would her siblings) it is either Kill or be Killed, also her family were killers, they killed and betrayed each other. And can we not forget history at least Real History is also written by the Victors. There are no first hand written accounts of Cleopatra’s death, and I’m sorry but Plutarch may not be the best person to quote from, even historians know he is more of a story teller than historian.
That moment when you realize that Arsinoe was about 15 when she defeated Caeser so and was like 11-13 when she and her brother banished Cleopatra. I mean wow seriously. Don't know about their brother but the sisters obviously were geniuses born to rule. Arsinoe's final defeat I believe was because she underestimated Cleopatra who was older and has more experience in the intrigues and manipulation.
she lost to caesar not to cleopatra who was a conniving cuntress
Ceasar discovered he couldn't defeat Arsenoe, so he convinced her advisors to betray her. Ceasar offered Ptolemy in exchange for Arsenoe. The advisors accepted because Ptolemy was easier to control and manipulate. Ceasar was almost screwed...but somehow he always wiggles his way out of such situations.
She wasn't really defeated. Ceasar offered the Eunichs the Pharoah of Egypt (who Ceasar was holding hostage), in exchange for Arsenoe. The swap was made, Ptolemy was much easier to defeat, and was defeated.
@11:29 "Cleopatra was her father's daughter and he was a friend of Julius Caesar." This sentence sums up this entire story.
The acting in this is phenomenal. Especially Cleopatra. Her mannerisms, facial expressions, her presence. It's all very believable as Cleopatra.
Ok
Arsinoe was no innocent victim lol. She wanted Cleopatra dead too.
yeah but she was hotter so... i vote for arsinoe
@@fourshore502 lol sure, if you like your women with a wider brow and very manly.
The whole family was murderous. It was kill or be killed. Cleopatra was a survivor (and murderer)
@@fourshore502 i would say Cleopatra and Arsinoe were good looking , but when it came in terms of charisma and personality , Cleopatra was way advanced on such things
@@killval849 only dominant men can handle dominant women you peasant
Arsinoe plotted to kill Cleopatra years earlier, she had Achillas killed and she took over the army of Ptolemy XIII. Arsinoe was not just an innocent teenager or a heroic martyr but a ruthless killer. who was trying to usurp the thrown from her older sister. Cleopatra had to have her killed before Arsinoe killed her.
When Cleopatra had her killed, Arsenoe was locked up in a Greek temple in modern day Turkey. Totally disarmed of any influence or power. She wasn't a threat to anyone anymore.
@@tylerdurden3722 She wasn’t idle in her exile. She conspired with the priesthood of Artemis to be recognized as a still reigning queen.
@@fabianhale845 There was no conspiring. Arsinoe was adressed as Queen by everyone. Which Cleopatra did not like, but had to put up with it because...Ceasar prevented her from doing anything about it...(Ceasar himself was also being prevented by Roman politics). The reason Arsinoe was refered to as a Queen, was because Ceasar went to great lengths to present Arsinoe as a defeated Queen in his Triumph (to make his Triumph appear more noteworthy). Vanquished leaders (and their families) were paraded in Triumphs...and were usually ritually strangled outside the Temple of Jupiter after the parade. Ceasar planned for Arsinoe to be strangled because she humiliated Ceasar during the siege of Alexandria (especially when she used Ceasar's purple cloak as a victory flag when Ceasar was forced to flee for his life... and almost died😅). Anyway, during the triumph, the Roman crowd took pity on the very young teenage queen, seeing her paraded in chains through the streets...and some Roman politicians stopped Ceasar from doing the strangle thing at the end. Before that Triumph, no one even knew Arsinoe existed. By the time the Triumph was over, everyone knew her as a Ptolemiac Queen who came closest to defeating the great Ceasar. At the Temple, she was still adressed by the title of queen. The temple offered sanctuary. It's where people went to escape assassination...not to plot assassination. At that time, Rome (and the western territories) was being controlled by people who wanted to get rid of Mark Anthony and Cleopatra (in fact, the Roman Senate had declared war on Cleopatra). If Arsinoe really wanted to conspire, all she would have needed to do was contact or go to Rome...she would have found an army of like-minded politicians over there.
@@tylerdurden3722 So a young princess usurps the throne once during Kleopatra’s rule, is spared, and the man who put her in exile and was her sister’s main supporter dies, she promises to never do it again?
@@fabianhale845 What are you talking about? Arsinoe didn't usurp the throne. Ptolemy was Pharoah. Cleopatra tried to wrestle his throne from him, he tried to get rid of Cleopatra, but she fled put of Alexandria. Then Ceasar came along and with Cleopatra took the entire Royal family hostage...and the palace. The Eunich, Achillas then tried to rescue them with the Egyptian army. Arsenoe managed to escape and took control of that army outside and continued the attempt to take back the palace and rescue the Pharoah, who was being held hostage. Ceasar was busy losing against Arsinoe, so he offered the Eunichs a swap. To dwap Arsinoe for Ptolemy. Ptolemy was incompetent...Ceasar prefered an incompetent opponent. And Ptolemy was still officially the ruler of the country and was easier to control than Arsinoe. The Eunichs liked that. So the swap was made. Ceasar defeated Ptolemy (who died). Then Ceasar appointed a new Pharoah, also named Ptolemy (the younger brother...and made Cleopatra his co-ruler) Arsinoe was sent to the Temple of Artemis. In Egypt, the men usually ruled. When Ceasar died, Cleopatra killed the Pharoah (her second brother) and took power. This was the first time, Cleopatra was actually in power. Then later, she made a bargain with Mark Anthony that involved Arsinoe's death. Arsenoe was never really in power...except for that brief period during the siege of Alexandria. During which time Ptolemy the elder brother was still Pharoah. Rome, held the legal authority to annex Egypt anytime they wanted, but chose not to. They were more concerned with keeping the country stable as it's grain was critical to the existence of Rome. There were only two usurpers in this story. 1. Berenice usurped the throne from her father, also called Ptolemy. Rome declared war against the usurper, and put a Ptolemy back on the throne. 2. Cleopatra. When she killed the second brother Ptolemy to usurp his throne, after Ceasar died. This Ptolemy was made Pharoah by Rome. Again Rome declared war against the usurper but this time Egypt was annexed.
Ι love that u all try to depict her true Mediterranean greek image through all this years. And we never saw smthg unreal. I mean we have description of her colors and characteristics and those were always followed even by the actresses who represented her in the known cleopatra movies. Pale skin naturally tanned, dark hair and green or honey eyes
Her death only happened because Caesar was murdered. There's a parallel universe where Caesar was never murdered and Cleopatra's sister wasn't murdered and Cleopatra lived longer.
Cleopatra was rightful queen alongside her brother. He exiled her because she challenged his opinions. She wanted her throne back. Arsinoe wanted to be queen and went against Cleopatra. Of course Cleopatra had to have her killed. Otherwise Arsinoe would have killed her first and stolen her thrown. Arsinoe isn't some heroic martyr. She was trying to usurp the thrown from her older sister...
The thing is that we already know Arsinoe IV tried to do this. When Caesar and Cleopatra were besieged in the Palace of Alexandria by the forces of Ptolemy XIII and his commander Achillas, Arsinoe IV took over that army by way of her tutor Ganymedes, who had Achillas killed before tricking Caesar into handing over the captive Ptolemy XIII. Arsinoe IV was later paraded as a prisoner in Caesar's triumph in Rome. She was only spared when the crowd objected to the sight of the heavy royal golden chains and bondage of such a young girl. That's why she was exiled to Ephesus in the first place. She was also old enough to challenge Cleopatra for the throne. It might seem cruel to us moderns, but this was a kill or be killed situation among the Ptolemaic royal family.
She was in a temple.
She was quite ugly as known by scholars her allure is said to have been her intellect, wit and she was famously educated in male seduction
She was not educated in male seduction. It's roman propaganda all over again. Any such "education" was beneath a hellenistic princess, a daughter of a king. She was educated in rhetoric and oratory, among other things(medicine and math). She was taught by best tutors, who gave her excellense in public speaking and her philological reputation. She was gripping in her conversation and persuasive in her discussion. She didn't need any "seduction skills". She just made her choice of partners herself, she wasn't sold in marriage by male relatives, as was customary at the time. That's why she was "seductress."
Look at what Cleopatras intentions ended up as? The idea of saving Egypt lead to the opposite result.
Don't call her a killer as if she was a serial killer. It was a time where you either kill or get killed and rulers make choices that even today kill people. Don't make her sound so antagonistic, when she wasn't. She was a ruler and a good one. Her people loved her.
Yeah👏
The people were happy they weren't starving but she was still a foreign ruler with many enemies.
you didnt have to kill to survive. look at the persian kings, they were very forgiving. however it was a persian woman who convinced darius to attack greece. most woman who obtained power in history went on to do horrible things. olympias, empress wu zetian, countess bathory, many roman aristorats, queen mary. the list goes on and on.
you're right you don't (or at least i believe that too), how ever they did. and I am sorry but Persia was a conquering nation like many of the ages. The world was still expanding and almost all nations were all violent back then. you missed others though like Boudicca, Cleopatra Thea (syria), Hatshepsut, nefertari (ramses ii wife), women had to fight in a male dominated political world so yeah i mean they kinda had to brash and ruthless at times, thats all leaders though. Times were WAY WAY WAY different back then too. So it was very normal. Cleopatra did what she had to. I honestly think out of any egyptian queen i feel nerfertiti was possibly the looniest.
@@daveshouse8105 the perrsians would actually give you back your statues if the babylonians had taken them. statues were gods basically so that was a big deal. persia would conquer not through violence but by diplomacy, they would give you a really good deal, and be allowed to continue your culture. if you were a single woman you were given a home and land to farm. by the time darius was leading it, the empathy had gone down a little. but remember that huge army xerxes led into greece, that army was so vast that it was supposed to dissuade violence, and show off its exotics and colors as it past through persia. i dont think the "woman in a mans world" is any excuse to be cruel. i understand your thinking but once you have hench men and power, your gender doesnt matter anymore.
Calling Cleopatra a ruthless murderer is a bit extreme..
"Cleopatra was her father's daughter" 😂 11:26
Cleopatra was no more a killer than any other ancient ruler. It was customary to kill off all potential contenders for the throne, and that means all the closest relatives to the previous ruler. It was either kill or be killed.
KILL KILL KILL !!! AHAHAHAHAHAHABWAHAHAGAHAAAAAAAAAAA
Ok she is still a killer though nothing will change that
so whats supposed to mean anyway ? you think anything has changed or are we really still in "ancient times " ? take a good look around
Claudius didn't seem particularly homicidal and Julius Caesar forgave (too many) of his enemies. She was pretty ruthless.
Because she's equal to other killers she's less of a killer herself? Brilliant, masterful stuff man 👍
I think it's important to mention that murder among royal family members was very common during these times. Cleopatra was by far not the only one who had someone killed in her family. The motto was "kill or be killed".
Poor Princess Diana was killed and it wasn’t even for a throne
Cleopatra has studied mathematics, science and was a great chemist. She was a scholar and orator amd at a very tender age she learned to speak egyptian language hieroglyphics which one of the most toughest language. She liked the company of philosophers and thinkers. The hollywood cleo is absolutely a myth. And she was a genius.
I love these , they are really informative and interesting. Learning about Arsinoe was really fun. Not only was she younger than Cleopatra, but far more beautiful. Must be the youth in Greek culture . If this is the closest we’ll get to see what Cleopatra really looked like , that’s just as interesting.
Don Pablo Escobarrr I believe it’s up to the average person to see it differently. Cleopatra’s beauty is her unfathomable strength. Sure she’s aesthetically pleasing to the eye, but It’s strength, intellect and charm that makes Cleo a great beauty . Arsinoe is a classic “ youthful “ beauty . Do you possibly need glasses ?
@@makeupboss3568 Cleopatra was probably also very beautifull. I think you think this too. And she must be a .... in bed. Damn I wish I could go back in time now 🤣
@@Kvs-vf9nt lol 😂
What's Greece got to do with it?
@@Kvs-vf9nt no you dont
clicked for Cleopatra stayed for that Scottish brough
same bro, same
Nero hhhhhhhh
I.....I can’t....his accent is too strong for me....
And the Roman orator/senator. They're the real stars of the show!
Brogue?
Once again we are subjected to an historical figure being judged by today's standards. She wasn't a serial physcopathic killer. She behaved the way all royal families have,throughout history. Butchered there way to the top. They were and are, ruthless survivors.
Edward had his father murdered for the crown before he abdicated....yet nobody talks about that.
Royalty or not, killing your own family is unacceptable
Who knows if this story is true or not, but what time in history you lived doesn't have anything to do with whether you were a narcissistic killer or not. Either you were, or you weren't. Anyone who butchered their way to the top, especially if they killed their own family members, falls under that standard whether they live today or died thousands of years ago.
@@Toolness1 that’s a pretty ignorant statement. Things were very different back then. Common ppl killed for survival. There was no due process. There were no text books on psychopathy and narcissism. There were hungry poor people. And then there were royals. The hungry killed for survival and the royals killed for their own survival.
The problem with that take is that her dynastic line was famous for the level of inbreeding and familial murder. Even in that time it was at an abnormally high level for her line, and even then not every generation wiped literally everyone else out, and yet she felt it necessary even when she had a Roman dictator's son and married the newest powerful individual in Rome. It was unnecessary, and Cleopatra is as overvalued as Alexander is. Had she been literally anywhere else other than Egypt and wasn't the last of her line she would be another one of the thousand nothing-burger rulers in history.
Whether the remains are those of Arsinoe - they might be too young - the truth remains that Arsinoe probably had it coming. Even in exile, she was hurling insults at her sister and had a nice chunk of Ephesus ready to back her as the 'true' Queen of Egypt. Read about Cleopatra's ancestors to really find ruthlessness. Mother married son; sons killed mothers; fathers exiled then married then killed daughters. Horrors. The fact that Cleopatra even let her sister live for so many years after her exile shows a kind of clemency not shared by her ancestors.
Cleopatra wasn't some kind of crazy mass-murderer, killing to avoid being killed was an inevitable part of running a country throughout most of human history. She was simply ruthless enough to stay alive and in power, until she and Antony went up against Octavian and came out second best...
Who else thinks it would be AMAZING to act in one of these?
me!
Me !!!
Yess
I don't know.Surely there must be somebody who does.
This documentary does Kleopatra a disservice. The west (heavily influenced by Rome [history is written by the winners, not the losers]) always paints her in such a negative light. >Her private name was Philopator, or father's love. She had 2 older sisters who both attempted to assasinate their father, who she was close with and supported. They were put to death for treason after ptolemy got help from Rome. >Kleopatra would have had the most training in how to rule as she was around their father the most, and she would have had the most experience with and knowledge of Rome. She was likely the chosen heir because of her training, knowledge, and age, but also because of her loyalty. >Arsinoe and the younger ptolemies (her brothers) were young, impressionable, surrounded by councilors who likely had their own agendas, and also likely a bit spoiled in their views of their own abilities. >Resisting Rome would have devastated Egypt, and at the time Egypt just did not have the infantry might to have had much hope of winning. Sure, they had a strong Navy, but as the later battle of Mark Anthony and Kleopatra at Actium shows, that can not win a war on its own. >Also, in Ancient times the only true way to ensure safety for your family line is to kill those who would do the same to you and yours, even if they are family.
Besides all that Kleopatra´s Father left a huge dept to Rome (During his reign he had to rely on roman military assistance in order to put down a major native egyptian rebellion against the greek dynasty of ptolemies)hanging above the head of anyone to rule Egypt after him. Main reason for Antony and Kleapatra to meet was to discuss the terms of payment and the murder of Arsionoe was more of a sidekick to Kleopatra than of a main dish
Jennifer Goldstein *Cleopatra
Arsinoe IV literally had Achillas killed and took over the army of her captive brother Ptolemy XIII so she could resume the siege of Alexandria, with Julius Caesar and Cleopatra trapped inside the royal palace waiting for reinforcements. Arsinoe made a direct assault and threat upon their lives. That's why she was imprisoned and brought to Rome in chains to be paraded in the triumph, before being exiled to Ephesus in Anatolia.
Hey Jenny do you recommend another doc on cleopatra?
Very well put
I watched this thinking Cleopatra must have commited genocide or something only to find that it's about her knocking off her sister. It hardly qualifies her as one of history's biggest killers.
The bones, according to science, are of a young lady aged 15-18 years old. Cleopatra's brother was crowned as king, together with her and their siblings, at the age of 18. Then it was said that Cleopatra seduced Julius Caesar at the age of 22, meaning Arsinoe is at the age of 15-18 that time when she put Julius Caesar into shame. Then YEARS passed when Julius Caesar took revenge and place Cleopatra as Queen of Egypt as he took Arsinoe to Rome. With the sympathy of the people in Rome, he spare the life of the former queen and send her to Ephesus. And again, YEARS passed when Julius got killed and many more years have passed before she got killed. I just don't think or agree that it is Arsinoe's bones. ✌️😊
If you read ancient history, ALL rulers killed their siblings and their enemies to avoid being dethroned. It was kill or get killed. Your video title is ignorant (you obviously are not aware of basic facts in history) and sensationalist (understandably, that is what “sells”). But, it has good details, backed by scientists, that I didn’t know about Cleopatra’s life. Txs for that.
KILL KILL KILL !!! AHAHAHAHAHAHABWAHAHAGAHAAAAAAAAAAA
Wow this comment went from 1 extreme to the other
Sonia T perhaps you should do it the documentarie about Cleopatra 😆
True🤣🤣😂😂😂
Hardly ignorant its what she was
As cool as Elizabeth I was, didn't she order the death Mary, Queen of Scotland? I know she didn't want to, Mary made a play for England.
Elizabeth I executed Mary Stuart (Mary Queen of Scots) because she saw a threat to her rule. However, she never had children, therefore no heir. After Elizabeth died, Mary Stuarts son James VI became King of England. An aside that is interesting. Mary Stuart's bio says she was 5'11" tall. I'll bet she towered over Elizabeth. A woman that tall in that age would have been intimidating.
She signed it unknowingly, the execution order
Elizabeth I killed many Catholics many as her father Henry VIII.
@@reinedegypte Its funny how the 5 most and for most people only known examples of Women ruling over a country have all ended in Massacres. From Boudica of Britain who first massacred towns and then got her entire tribe massacred, the only Queen of china who was also the most bloody ruler of ancient china, Katarina of Russia, Elizabeth 1 and even the new Elizabeth supporting the Wars all over the world, and Cleopatra who is also responsible for the death of her entire bloodline and destruction of a 3000 yesr old culture. Yeah vote for Hillary 2024 so we can finally get rid of the USA lol
@@AbuHajarAlBugatti Cleopatra just finished what the Ptolemaic dynasty was doing in all the time that they ruled Egypt. But definitely, Cleopatra is a good example of women killers. She was ambitious and wanted power like all humans in that time.
Many historians disagree with this assumption that the bones are those of Queen Arsonoe. They say That she was in her mid twenties when she was killed. On the other hand, they are saying that the Ptolemaic’s had African blood in her veins, since the skull from the tomb have African figures. But they are not saying that Arsinoe an Cleopatra were half sisters. The bust of Cleopatra shows that the had Classical Greek features. Perhaps the actual Arsinoe was Greek or she had Egyptian blood by her mother that was not Cleopatra’s mother.
It would have been interesting if some of her DNA had also been preserved. It would so cool to see what her genes would have said about her. Since they don't know what happened to the skull it may actually turn up one day. Hopefully there would be a way to connect the skull to the body; but that is much harder now because even if it is found the finder may not realize what it is. Cleopatra could have actually done a lot more if she had not been so selfish and let go of her anger. The world would definitely be different. I wonder what things would have been like if she had not married Marc Anthony' and Egypt had not become a province of Rome. Would they be worse of better? It's amazing to think about the possibilities of how one choice being different and possibly changing history.
I read somewhere one that in each human generation there are at least three people that change the course of history
Wasn't it more of charm and intelligence than power and beauty? Every source I have ever read strictly says she used her intelligence to impress/seduce these men.
She was not likely beautiful; most sources report on her large nose, confirmed by the only images we have -- her face on the coins issued during her rule with Mark Anthony. Rather, she was "bewitching" due to her education, fluency in nine languages, command of finance and governance, quick wit and beguiling presence.
Sirama well I have to be honest with you all, she tried all her charms on me, but i kept telling her, Cleo baby girl, you just can't afford me, go try some peasant Roman guy, there easily pleased... The rest is history....god I love Me
She was really not that beautiful. Writers who came after she died called her a beautiful temptress heathen.
The actress isn't that attractive and fits the big nose description.
With all that in-breeding, she was very lucky to be intelligent and healthy. Beauty under those circumstances would be almost too much to hope for! But you never know, stranger things have happened.
Love the use of Ian McNeice as the Roman storyteller. Wonderful to see him revise the same basic role he had in the HBO series Rome.
I know, I spotted that immediately! A shame they didn't include the Arsinoe angle in the series. In fact, it's a shame 'Rome' was cancelled so early, what promise it showed!
@@heatherfromcheshire7392 I read that it cost too much to make.
@@spudmcdougal369 I think mid-season 2, the set burned down so they had to wrap up the storylines in a hurry.
I LOVED him as the Daily Reader… that was a really clever idea for exposition
CLEOPATRA WAS AN INTELLIGENT WOMAN, SMART RULER, AND LOVING DEVOTED MOTHER.
Fantastic documentary! Loved every minute of it.
"...but there was a darker side to this legend. A forgotten story of a cold-hearted killer." Buddy this a'int some long forgotten legend. I wrote a paper on this when I was 12. Back that train up. Also, why are we taking the word of these Roman writers as the gospel? Come on, guys, you know better than that!
Some of them are Greek.
I’m just obsessed with Egyptology in general Neferneferuaten Nefertiti, Nefertari Meritmut wife of Ramses The Great, Hatshepsut I stay on the History Channel 😂
Me too. Ive always been drawn to egyptian things in literature and movies. Egypt seems so mysterious and alluring.I was born Wrong era and wrong continent I think. Sigh
Linda Reiber As was I. I’ve had a fascination with ancient Egypt since I was 4-5 years old and I’m still still in love with Egypt.
William Freeman: Are you familiar with common cubits of 6 palms x 4 fingers = 24 digits and royal cubits = 7 palms x 4 fingers = 28 digits? GOD=7_4, 7/4=July 4th was a HUGE Masonic(7,74) Code(4). See GOD704.fandom.com .
14:55 NO, it doesn't fit at all, because, you see, Cleo was crowned at 18 in 51 BC... at the time, Arsinoe was indeed a child, problem is, she was murdered in 41, by which time she was a grown adult.
What a brilliantly laid out sliver of History. Well done. Many accounts just leave out Cleopatra's sister.
Ptolemy loved his daughter cleopatra she demonstated often to her father the ability to rule. Her father brought her into his diplomacy matters she knew several languages. She simply could have been a woman ruler like Elizabeth the 1st if shed had a better social climate to be in.
To think that she was the only of the Ptolemaic dynasty to know Egyptian.
they were thieves and not kings of Africa. they were oppressors ruling in Africa but were not rulers of Africa. the africans recognized their own rulers very much. ptolomy and Cleopatra and their bloodshed thieves invaded peaceful Africa to rob their tombs of gold. and when romb robing became difficult they transformed it into archeology. shame. only you can accept that version of history. Egypt is Africa not Europe.
@@dreffereinkayden2731 oh knock it off already.
Fabian Hale truth upsets historian from roman background. or romans guising themselves as jews. our African history is known all over our lands even if they do no exist in your books from Cambridge, oxford or wherever. African kings buried their dead with gold and jewels. a tradition for thousands and thousands of years that is still practiced today. only European thieves invaded when they hear of such wealth and began robbing the tombs. and they made themselves into gd's of the land committing bloodshed and spreading corruption.
@@dreffereinkayden2731 conspiracy theories do not count as truth. You can’t even stay on one topic.
That snake bracelet Cleopatra's wearing makes me think of the one that Jasmine wore in Aladdin when Jafar made her his slave
That’s a Disney movie. This is history.
18:50 stabbing her family in the back you say? How had they treated her previously? Remember, this is a matter of power and politics, not family loyalty, and such backstabbing antics were nothing new to the Lagid dynasty... hadn't her father been driven from his throne, to be replaced by his elder daughter Berenice? Hadn't he come back with Roman troops in support and hadn't he had Berenice killed? You can't fault Cleo for being the product of her times and surroundings.
One of the best doco's I've seen. Interesting, comprehensively researched, great content and beautifully presented. Thanks! ☮️
Are you kidding me? This is a biased doc against this woman. Haven't you read the comments explaining correct information?
The way the full documentary is put up is amazingly amazing. A very interesting character in the History was shown so mysteriously. And most important is that objectivity was maintained as History is an objective subject.
I just love it when these documentaries emphasize big architecture by swelling the music so high that you can't hear the guy talking.
Lol
I just look the large guy who was telling the story, he’s a great actor.
I know they studied it and it's obvious to people in that field but I just can't help but be amazed how they can tell so much from a pile pf bones! That is so fascinating!
Glad Arsinoe is getting more attention. If her and Cleopatra worked together they would’ve been unstoppable
Right... if only they agreed on the course
Insanity doesn't care. They were like snakes going after each other.
How do you know that? Would that have made their army any larger if they worked together?
"Uses power and beauty" should actually be "Uses power and intelligence" or "Uses power and brains" or "Uses power and wit" Who wrote that intro?
You did
As stated to a viewer; the benefit of watching these vids over TV is the additional knowledge provided and refuted dialogue. Thanks to all that posted comments esp the ones reminding me she was Of Greek origin.
Oh hey, journeys lead singer with an accent. I hadn’t watched a Neil Oliver docu in a while, forgot how much I love his stuff. Also how damn smooth his voice is.
Great story of the science of forensic archeology. This is a hidden history brought to life. Many stories of history reveal insights previously not shared or known by this channel. Good work Timeline! New subscriber.
SO MANY OF HER FAMILY MEMBERS TRIED TO GET RID OF HER FOR HER THROWN, OF COURSE SHES GONNA BE ON THE DEFENSIVE... WHO WOULDNT
She never really had the throne. She only got it after Ceasar died and after killing everyone higher than her in the line of succession...except Arsinoe. When Ceasar defeated Ptolemy, he made Ptolemy's younger brother Pharoah. When Ceasar died, Cleopatra killed the second brother and took the throne (there were no more brothers left. Berenice, the only ister older than her was also dead). Then she proceeded to hunt down her last surviving Ptolemiac royal, who was living under the sanctuary of the temple of Artemis...in what is today modern Turkey. It's where people went to escape assassination. Anyone who lived there, lived there to escape designs on their life.
@@tylerdurden3722 When Ptolemy XII died in 51 bce, the throne passed to his young son, Ptolemy XIII, and daughter, Cleopatra VII. So the empire was hers to begin with. And the two married soon after their father's death but with the help of the counselors her brother wanted to rule alone so Soon after, Cleopatra was forced to flee Egypt for Syria, where she raised an army and in 48 BCE returned to face her brother at Pelusium, on Egypt’s eastern border. The murder of the Roman general Pompey, who had sought refuge from Ptolemy XIII at Pelusium, and the arrival of Julius Caesar brought temporary peace. Cleopatra realized that she needed Roman support, or, more specifically, Caesar’s support, if she was to regain her throne. Each was determined to use the other. Cleopatra was determined to keep her throne and, if possible, to restore the glories of the first Ptolemies and recover as much as possible of their dominions, which had included southern Syria and Palestine. Caesar and Cleopatra became lovers and spent the winter besieged in Alexandria. Roman reinforcements arrived the following spring, and Ptolemy XIII fled and drowned in the Nile. Caesar sought money for repayment of the debts incurred by Cleopatra’s father, Cleopatra, now married to her brother Ptolemy XIV, was restored to her throne. That is how she regained her power. Apart from her image of a seductress and according to the ancient texts she was scientist, philosopher, politician and ofc a great leader. murder was quite common in their family.
@@mrsbaetaeass6165 on paper she was co-ruler, yes. But she never actively ruled while Ceasar walked the earth. When her father died, Cleopatra's brother was appointed as senior ruler. He was underage, so the regent called Pothinus was the real person actively ruling Egypt. The reason Cleopatra ended up in exile, is because she attempted to wrestle power from her brother to become the main ruler...she failed and had to flee to Syria. Then Ceasar entered the picture, desperate to find money to pay his troops and pay off his mountain of debts...and he was on the hunt for a cash cow. Cleopatra's father owed Rome a ton of money, in loans he made to bribe people like Ceasar to not annex Egypt (a topic that was being actively debated by the Roman senate and was brought up by the Triumvirate... which included Ceasar) .😅 Ceasar intervened in Egypt (something the Roman senate was never willing to do, due to a prophecy of doom, in the Syballine Books, if they did) ... then after her brother was killed and Arsenoe sent to Anatolia, Ceasar forced Cleopatra to marry her second brother, also named Ptolemy. This brother was also underage, so Ceasar appointed a regent and advisors (which was his plan all along). The regent of this second brother was the actual ruler of Egypt (and of course, he was Cesar's puppet). Egypt was reduced to a Client-Kingdom by Ceasar (just like the Iceni, who was ruled by Boudicca, was reduced to a client-kingdom). While Cleopatra herself ran to Italy after Ceasar and went to live in Rome. You can't rule a kingdom like Egypt from Ceasar's villa in Rome. She was the junior co-ruler...on paper only...just like she had been before. It was only after Ceasar died and after she killed her second brother (to get rid of the regent Ceasar put in charge of things), that she took control and actively ruled, for the first time in her life. While Ceasar was alive, she was made just a figurehead by Ceasar, with Ceasar's regent really doing ruling. She and her brother were reduced to puppet monarchs by Ceasar. Only when Ceasar died, could she make her move.
@@tylerdurden3722 #HATER!!!!
Thankyou so much for posting this, it was such a pleasure to watch & learn from. Much Appreciation & Respect all the way from Maui Hawai'i.
Good documentary! I really enjoyed it. I had really never heard the story of Cleopatras sister Queen. So yeah that was pretty neat!
Finally! a documentary about Cleopatra that cast an actress that is both beautiful AND resembles the real Cleo likeness on the ancient Egyptian coin.
cleopatra was not a caucasian,you need to confirm the facts and not fantacy.
@@danieljohnson1035 lol she was Greek
@@jaygarit9177 No but was she pure greek we don't know that and more than likely she was not cause where have men Conquered and not had relations with the local women so it's quite possible she was not 100% European or Greek in this instance 🤔🤔🤔👍💯
@@jaygarit9177 Macedónia☺️
@@kennyjukes2495 A bit Hungaryan MAG☺️
Kill or be killed, that's the name of the royal succession game not just in the day of Cleopatra (the last monarch of the Greek pharaohs - 24th Dynasty) but all the way back to the First dynasty 2 thousand years before Cleopatra. If she hadn't had her sister Arsinoe killed, Arsinoe would have continued looking for allies to help her raise her own forces to try and claim the throne.
The Ptolemaic dynasty wasn’t Egypt’s 24th dynasty.
My bad. The 31st or the Last Dynasty I should say, before Egypt became a Roman province.
And ever since... look at the british and other european monarchies as well. Even "democracies" have these kinds of leaders. Calling her a girl is misleading too, anything over 12 was an adult.
i could listen to this guy all day long... love me a Scot!
There's so much of loneliness at the top, every where on this earth.
I could listen to that announcer's voice and accent all day!
He does a bunch of bbc docs. He does a series on the stone age that's pretty good as well.
I really hope she is found I also want to know how she really looked ? I’m so obsessed with her story
I don't always toot my own horn, but this seems like an excellent opportunity to plug my video about this very subject, the ancient Roman artworks depicting Cleopatra VII, including sculpted marble heads/busts, wall paintings from Pompeii and Herculaneum, and raised relief images on silver coins. They all show a similar portrait of a Hellenistic Greek woman with a diadem: kzhead.info/sun/ldOKf7yjcIx7ops/bejne.html
Sara Kinder she was black
Sara Kinder people in old Egypt were black.
+Seren geti Kleopatra wasn’t black. Neither is Arsinoe proven to be.
Seren Geti how the grand daughter of a Greek general could be black?
Cleopatra is a symbol of the power of beauty and intellegent of a woman to get the throne .
Incredible portrayal and impressive performance. Really brought to life the struggles of the times.
TWHD - I recently found this documentary site and must say it is wonderful, such an array of interesting topics and MANY that matter. Thank you for taking your time and efforts so others may be able to try to really know and understand the past! Kudos to you all!
"She was a woman of incredible beauty in her youth" not necessarily, she was charismatic, sophisticated and highly intelligent for a female of her time. Her personality more than likely seduced Ceaser, she knew her life depended on winning him over so without a doubt she made herself as attractive as possible but I don't believe she relied solely on her superficial strengths. He was older, but could've gotten anyone he chose; looks alone wouldn't have seduced him into taking her side. However, Romans didn't see women as anything but property so I believe that when they wrote about the encounter (that they weren't there for), it was from of a point of view that it was truly a superficial seduction.
I think she offered Ceaser what he wanted, which in truth was wealth. Between its grain, Egypt was also controlled most of the trade with India and the Far East. Could it be that she simply offered him a better deal than her brother? Their being lovers was more of propaganda victory for Ceaser, all though in the long run Cleopatra tried to turn it to her advantage.
mike deck I'm sure that helped! But she met with him before her brother had a chance to.
Exactly. She was an expert politician. Her beauty may have helped her, but her intelligence and charisma was likely what made her so formidable. I hate it when they reduce historical female leaders to merely being 'beautiful'.
I agree she used her intelligence more than her looks also it cute possibly that the all legend about her looks began from Julius Caesar's enemies trying to show him like an old man fallen to a woman's tricks
I'm sure she was all those things but just like today if a woman isn't very beautiful....a powerful man isn't about to "fall into" to her seduction lol like even what she chose to do for me showed the confidence of a woman who was considered physically beautiful. I believe she was beautiful for her time maybe not ours but definitely her own along with educated and the rest. She used everything she had to prosper and get where she needed to be.
Looking back, it seems it would have been smarter to never have exiled Cleopatra. Maybe that would have changed the course of seeking out Caesar.
This is what I've been waiting for! ~ a narrator with a great voice (handsome is nice too) and a way of making every minute fascinating. Thank you : D
I love archaeology, but it upsets me when tombs are disturbed.
As an amateur historian I see so many things wrong with this “play”which is what I would call it. This isn’t a biography not even a recounting of historical events. Timeline really made a mess of this documentary.
The title should be "Arsinoe: The Queen who never was" or something like that instead of "Cleopatra: portrait of a killer"
I'm impressed with this big old guy performance. It's nice to watch him acting😁
Tip to get rid of all the commercials... When you start watching skip to the very end. Then hit replay. It doesnt show commercials then.
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@Karen Jones Adblock for KZhead™ - Google Chrome
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or, you know, get adblocker. I haven't seen an add in years, and haven't paid a dime.
Or... watch the commercials to show support to the channel. That way they can actually keep existing. The commercials are a way for channels to earn some income that a lot of them put into making other videos. It's just a kind and humain way of support.
According to "Timeline" every monarch up to recent history indulged in murder of rivals to any throne; even if Cleopatra was murderess, then, she was like every other ruler of the time. Makes me wonder what kinds of behavior, that we engage in now, will be deemed barbaric at some future timeline.
@@jennesseee7069 Just eat your plants and stop trying to tell other people what they should be doing.
transitioning children.
@@backintimealwyn5736 and aborting them.
@Gabryjel me fale mais sobre isso por favor
Elizabeth 1 had mary queenof Scots beheaded.her cousin. Also her lovers wife was found dead at the bottom of the stairs
This is amazing and the excellence of modern forensics.
You do know this is a ton of assumptions and very thin evidence, right?
I don't understand how the coins of Egypt that depict Cleopatra have her looking not necessarily exotically beautiful. I'm sure that a queen would not want to be forever depicted as less beautiful than she was. I think that her "beauty" came with her power and her intellect.
The Roman guy telling what happened is just awesome !
Isn't this the same man who played Roman herald announcing state-sponsored news to Roman citizens and residents in HBO tv series "Rome"?
I mean no one is talking about how incredible it is to go from no skull to getting an idea of what this potential princesses face looked like? Damn its amazing!
I enjoyed this documentary show very much. The research done by the scientists is soundly soundly academic. It’s good not to be alive during the time of Cleopatra, and her sister. I’m sure just to look at either woman without permission would mean death. So yes, Cleopatra, and her sisters were murderers no doubt.
You should do some more research instead of blindly believing this "academic doc". 😑🙄🙄🙄
Although this is probably true, it’s nothing unusual. This was the Ptolomies way of ruling, she wasn’t any more murderous than any of her contemporaries- anywhere in the world - at that time. The interest in this subject is due to her historical fame, and after all these centuries, she’s still captivating us.
I thought she had flings, and her love life was fast, but she had a son by Cesar and three children by Mark Anthony