How to land a Mooney without floating
2018 ж. 20 Жел.
84 501 Рет қаралды
People we meet talk about how hard it is to land Mooneys. Here is our flight to Ocracoke (W95) for lunch. Along with thoughts about how to land a Mooney without floating 1000's of feet past your touchdown point.
This video is for entertainment purposes only and is not intended as instruction in any way. For instruction, please contact a local flight instructor.
Thoroughly enjoyable. Thanks for taking the time to put this together.
Just bought a Mooney 2 days ago. I've flown in one but never in control of it. Going up with an instructor soon to do the time required for insurance check off and this video is the best one I've seen by far👍.
Jerome - Congratulations! You will soon discover what a great plane it is and with a good instructor learn how to fly it properly. You will need to adjust to how slippery the plane is. We plan to begin our descents 6 miles out for every 1000 feet we need to descend to get to the desired altitude. It is much more of a procedure based airplane but the way it handles is so sweet and its so stable that it's a joy to fly.
Very informative video. Thanks a lot!
I'm trying to nail my landings in a C, this video provides some much need perspective! Thanks for posting.
Very nice! Really like your panel as well ----
Try the approach power off and 70 kts sometime. You'll need a much steeper approach, and then add power just near the end to arrest the high sink rate. I used that for very short strips with trees at the approach end, or at night at unfamiliar airports.
Now that's a proper NC accent. Love the video!
Ha! Thanks very much!
Thanks! Very informative. Now I understand!
Great video!
Great video with a lot of good information, keep doing more of these content pls! Saludos from Chile
Hi! I'm flying in this video and BT is copilot. We are always trying to think of new ideas for new videos. Thanks for your comment and thanks for watching!
@@briankgrant Great! It's a beautiful plane and such a great runway you visited ! Saludos
I am happy to have seen this video. I'm close to purchasing the same Mooney in the1998. This was very valuable info. Can I get you to come down to Ft Lauderdale soon to fly with me and give me some more info?
Right on man. Speed control is paramount. Mooneys can get in and out short runways if a person flies at the proper airspeed. When I first moved the plane a 1966 m20-E to Fallbrook (L18) airport in California I found it quite the challenge as it sat on top of a hill with drop offs at both end and a 2160 foot runway. After about a year there and continually slowing the plane down I found I found I could consistently pull off half way down the runway. Next conquest? Lake Wolfort (8CL1)(with a 1,344 foot runway also on top of a hill with sharp drop offs at both ends of the runway. Being light on fuel and only myself onboard I decided to go for it. I came over the numbers with the stall horn blaring but I made it. Made it out without a problem as well. What a confidence builder. If you can poke a Mooney into a 1,344 foot runway, you can go almost anywhere. Point is, with proper airspeed control, a Mooney can get into very short runways. I now live on an airpark in Arizona and daily I see planes coming in so fast they look like they are making a high speed flyby. So silly and my current runway is 5,500 feet long. Get proficient with proper airspeed control and you can get most aircraft in very short runways with safety.
Sweet video in my favorite aircraft. M20J a perfect balance of capability, value, efficiency and cost. Having the cowl flaps out early also adds a tiny bit of extra drag that is welcomed for landing.
I question the opening of the cowl flaps before landing. It is not necessary and can possible shock cool the cylinders. Opening them after touchdown is the preferred method. If you have to do a go around there is plenty of time to open them after the gear and flaps are retracted
Good job !.
Great video. I love Mooney’s. Next flight you might position the camera so we aren’t looking at the back of your passengers head.
This is not our aircraft and we only had the suction cup mount, so our options were limited. In our own aircraft, we have a mount on the ceiling, which works much better. Thanks for the comment.
Nice landing!!!!!!!!!!
Good Info. I fly a 250 HP Comanche and is too seems to want to float if too much airspeed on approach. Best landings occur when I am over the numbers at 75-80 mph 65-70 Knots
I used to rent 231s in the early 80s and did not get a good check out instruction flight to begin with. Almost pronged the prop on my first solo landing with nerve- wracking porpoising . As some other commenters have said, a steeper approach ultimately allowed pulling power back to idle just before pulling the stick back and a low energy float. It appears to me that this landing was well below the VASI and contributes to extra energy in the float. Anyway, the steeper approach worked for me.
Loved my M20J…. Your pattern speeds are just like mine. Always got 1900 & 70 on final with occasional tweaking depending on wind. Best things I ever added besides my IFR ticket were radar altimeter and speed brakes. Flew several times to Ocracoke. Great little airport for a day trip. Trip home (W00, outside DC) was always half naked with sand in inappropriate places. Try flying to Chesapeake Bay’s Tangier Island for crab cakes. Better hurry before the runway disappears.
N1068X is my favorite plane to fly at WCFC!
I am a CFI who flies a 201, currently giving transition training to a new 201 owner and I sent the link for your video to my student. You have an excellent grasp of landing these fine aircraft and explain things well. Looking at becoming a CFI?
Great video man! Awesome to find a local flight video on youtube. I'm currently flying out of RDU and looked into the club at Sanford. I'd love to go up with you sometime if you want someone to tag along right seat! I haven't flown a Mooney but my instructor stressed the importance of precise airspeed on final in the 172, especially on short field landings. Sounds like the Mooney is just a bit less forgiving than the standard trainer.
Hey, thanks. I'm the PIC on this flight and BT is copilot. I agree that it is neat to see local stuff on youtube. The Mooney is really a great airplane. I agree with your instructor about the importance of good airspeed control, and I think it applies to any airplane. I was wary of the Mooney before I flew it and became proficient in it. As it turns out, it is just an airplane... but yes, a bit less forgiving than some. But if you understand what you're doing, it is also very fun and rewarding to fly. No big deal. Thanks for your comment and thanks for watching our video! ~Brian
Good video, I always am a little longer in case I do what you did in the video and almost land short. I do this especially if I have all that runway in front of me.
That's good. This was just a day or two before a hurricane came through and the winds were already quite strong, right down the runway. My final was intentionally long so I could establish a nice stabilized approach, but I underestimated the wind a bit. Thanks for the comment.
As a former Mooney owner (M20F) I found airspeed control led to grease on landings every time with minor float. I was comfortable going into a 2200' sea level strip. Great video and information. One critique, though, is the suggestion of opening of the cowl flaps for approach. I would suggest they be closed to avoid rapidly (shock) cooling the engine; in the event of a go around the cowl flaps need to be opened as part of the go-around maneuver. Perhaps the POH says differently but that would be unusual.
Hi there! Thanks for your comment. I'm the PIC in this video and BT is in the right seat. Regarding your point about the cowl flaps, I went back and checked the POH for a J-model 201 airplane (I don't have the one for the MSE handy, but I'm sure they're the same) and you're right about the recommendation to keep them closed until on the ground or until in a go-around. I was taught, and the checklist I use says, to open them earlier. The logic is that the engine has been operating at low power for a while at that point, and the airspeed is low, so the cowl flaps don't do much either way. The importance of this method is that it removes a critical step from the go-around checklist when one is already quite busy. Interesting note about shock cooling... We attended a seminar at Oshkosh last year where there was a panel of Bonanza and Continental engine experts who unanimously said there is no such thing as shock cooling. Can you believe that?? They said that shock heating when you put full power to a relatively cool engine is more damaging than anything anyone can do with the cooling. I thought that was really interesting, especially in the context of big six-cylinder Continentals. Anyway, thank you for your comment and thanks for watching our video! ~Brian
Shock cooling is not a real thing. I heard about shock cooling in turbo birds but several (5) master A&P"s said its not real.
Shock cooling only happens when ditching into a lake or ocean. It will be the least of your worries then too.
Does you gear horn sound just like the stall horn? I've been flying my dad's M20C and his both sound the same. There was a couple time when I was lining up to the runway and the horn goes off so I add power and the horn still was going off then I realized it was the gear horn. I wasn't finished with the landing checklist and the darn horn goes off. I'm so used to landing fast because I fly A-10s and Ive found it no problem landing the Mooney even into 1C8 (Cottonwood Airport in Rockford, IL) Great video and explanation!
Very simple answer to that question: keep your airspeed right. I loved to fly M20J 201s when I was active. Never had difficulty controlling speed and glidepath. However other memebers of the flying club owining two examples did not think the same, so just a few of us flew the Mooneys, so few, that when rationalizing things, the club sold out the Mooneys, to my sadness.
Nice video! Personally, I think the combination of the gear pucks and laminar flow wing do make the Mooney more challenging to land than an Arrow or Bonanza. I don’t think it’s a bad thing, it just teaches you to be a more precise pilot and manage your energy better. AOA indicator is nice as well, especially in the long body Mooneys.
Gotta have you’re airspeed dialled in
I learned to fly in a Gobosh LSA. With my instructor, I routinely landed 10 knots faster than book. So when I did my solo, without my ~200lb instructor, of course I did the same thing... and porpoised like mad on landing. I went around three times before landing successfully by slowing down to the book airspeed. My thought at the time, and it was a complete surprise, was... I HAVE to land, right? Eventually I’m going to be on the ground, no matter what! It’s physics, right? :) Exciting times. The airplane, N1277K, which was featured on a Jep FAR/AIM cover (!), was eventually damaged beyond repair by a student who did exactly the same porpoising I did, but forced it down. Lesson learned!
Good lesson to learn. Airspeed is important. Some airplanes are more forgiving than others.
@@btflync Just bought the Carenado M20R for FS2020. Your video was recommended. Sims don’t replicate the FEELING (sometimes terror) of flight, but they can certainly help with procedures, checklists, scans, flows, nav, habits and such. Even comms, when using e.g. PilotEdge. Thanks for the informative video.
Nice video!
If you like staring at the back of someone's head.
Hi, JCON631. Thanks very much for the feedback. I was the left seat PIC on this flight. We didn't have our usual ceiling-mounted camera bracket in this airplane, so we used a suction cup mount on one of the side windows, and what you see is what we got. Next time, we'll do a better job mounting the camera in a good spot in the Mooney.
10:11 the airport today was that long what about yesterday or last friday. Kidding
No crosswind inputs on the ground? Clear runway first and then checklist? Lights off while on rhe runway?
Where do you keep the plane? I'd love to see if I fit. Will pay for fuel. Greenville NC here.
I finally pinpointed the root causes of my floating issue. Of course, it was higher-than-proper airspeed, but that was being caused by how the Mooney _feels_ so tail-low at landing speed (compared to Piper or Cessna). That “leaned back” feeling, in a Cessna or Piper, would mean you’re in slow flight, just a few knots above stall. In the Mooney, that’s just how it feels when you’re going slower than 90kts. I have to constantly reassure myself that this is the speed the POH calls for and keep glancing at the amount of white arc still remaining.
Joe - I think you’ve got it. Once you get comfortable with the pitch attitude you need on final that’ll take care of your fast approach speed.
@@btflync I think another aspect is that, when you throttle back and put the flaps down, Mooneys require a lot of back-pressure (compared to other planes people get used to when working up to a Mooney). This can also give the impression that you’re holding it right above a stall.
@@jemenake That's a great point. Gear deployment/retraction and flap changes all require running the trim switch at the same time to anticipate those pitch changes. Coming from a 172 or Cherokee those pitch changes are certainly different. What always amazes me is how quickly they descend on short final at 71 knots and full flaps.
Short field? I am based on a 2100ft airfield with my M20F and consider that as plenty of runway. For me short field is a 1400x30ft runway in the neighbourhood, especially with gusty crosswinds... - flying in Europe seems to be a bit different to flying in the US.
'75 F....80MPH on final, full flaps gets me squeaky landings almost every time (except when I screw up)
Same here '76 F
@@apenney 76 F?
@@neomatrix3612 1976 Mooney M20F
Very informative video. I assumed that your downwind speed is slowed down from cruise speed so that #1 is GEAR? Is there a big slow down after gear is down from gear down speed? Pardon my low time ignorance. I have neither the skill nor financial means to fly Mooneys. I dream on by watching KZhead.
Hi. I'm in the left seat pilot and the narrator of this this video. From cruise, I slowly bring the power back (no more than 3 inches at once to prevent overcooling) to about 16-17 inches for the descent. Once I level out at pattern altitude (4-5 miles out) I leave the power at 16 inches for the downwind. Once it is time to put the gear down abeam the touchdown point, the speed will be well below the max gear speed. Once the gear is down and approach flaps set, I let the speed decay to 80 knots for the turns and then reduce to 71 knots once established on final. I usually extend flaps to full on base leg. If it isn't windy, I will allow the speed to get down in the mid-high 60s on very short final, which assures a nose-high, smooth touchdown with minimal excess energy and no floating. Works well for me.
2,998' is a "short field" - lol. When I bought my M20C, it was living at W75... Landed there a dozen times with it, and never used more than half the runway. Frequently stop it 400' past the numbers when landing 01 so I can turn off at the taxiway exit without backtaxi...
nah he performed a short field landing on a relatively large runway (as mentioned). See 10:10
You're my hero
I love the numbers and techniques your describing - in use for short or reduced speed scenarios. Having said that, landing a Mooney without floating is perfectly possible and safe at much higher speeds. We land in formation, no flaps, 2 a-breast at 90mph. No bounce, no wheelbarrowing. Now we need more runway, of course, but perfectly safe and doable on a 3k' runway at sea level. Also, the higher speed at touchdown on the mains will allow the nose wheel to settle much gentler than the stall touchdown - thus saving those pucks. The Mooney wing is designed to touch the mains with an exaggerated angle of attack. This is so much more crucial than your airspeed over the numbers in normal scenarios. That's why your correct observation - and some comments here - about having a steeper final approach yield such positive results. Great video for teaching the numbers. I just wanted to make sure that it's not pigeonholing for people. The Mooney wing is truly spectacular and has phenomenal response to positive control. Thanks for sharing!
I am the pilot and narrator in this video (this youtube account belongs to my partner there in the right seat... Thanks very much for your reply here. My approaches are normally much steeper than this one. I really enjoy the way the Mooney lands.
The idle speed makes a huge difference with Mooneys. I can consistently have my M20F landed and stopped in about 500ft. When I had the engine overhauled in that one a couple years back, the full "throttle-back" idle was about 200 RPM higher than what it'd been before the overhaul and I would use over 2000ft of runway and have to be heavy on the brakes. My much heavier Mooney Rocket will like to float a good bit more, but I'm also on the conservative side of Vso * 1.2 crossing the fence in that one as a "carrier landing" could be destructive with the extra weight on the nose and even less prop clearance.
I’m a NC expat, living in Oklahoma. I went to Ocracoke several times a year growing up to fish. Now I’m working on my PPL, and one of the first things I want to do is land at Ocracoke and have dinner at Pony Island Restaurant (if it’s still open)
That sounds like a great plan! Getting you PPL is an awesome experience that you will enjoy for the rest of your life. What are you currently training in?
btflync currently training in a Piper Warrior
Excellent choice. That’s what I did my PPL training in. After we bought a 79 that we owned for 9 years after that. Really great airplanes and very forgiving. Good for getting experience.
Im a pilot from NC aswell. Would love to go flying in it. I will even pay for fuel.
hi what is a reasonable yearly maintenance cost for the M20J
2K for the annual, not much more unless something breaks down
It just might be the camera angle, but coming down final the plane seemed quite FAR from the numbers. It appeared that the plane would not make the runway, if the engine quit. Were you that far away?
He said that a 20kt headwind caught him by surprise causing him to goose it a bit on short final.
OK, so, as a young 201 instructor the boss made me land without flaps or breaks on a 3600' runway, We turned off early. Your horn blaring close to touchdown tells you you have the right speed. Keep the nose up as long as possible unless the winds are really gusting.
Mooney floating, in my humble opinion, is largely a myth created by Beechcraft and Piper owners who always try to downplay the greatness of the Mooney. I transitioned from Cessna to M20C 6 years ago, then moved to M20J 3 years ago which I still own, and never had a singe instance of floating effect bad enough to overfly even one third of the runway. Yes, I heard these legends that "Mooney loves to fly too much" an "precise airspeed control is a must". In reality, I cross the numbers anywhere between 75 and 90 mph and land without an issue. In fact, I find it more difficult to land our classic C172 than the Mooney. As to the bounces, the Mooney rule is "2 bounces and you go around". Mooney landing is typically salvageable after the first bounce by applying energetic back pressure to the yoke. I had two Mooney bounces only once in my experience, but I clearly remember that after the second bounce, the plane positioned itself to touch ground with the nose gear first, so I quickly gave my bird the full throttle and went around.
It's my partner flying the Mooney in this video. I would agree with you. As long as the touch down speed is correct, floating is not an issue. The key seems to be that you don't want to force the plane to land if you are too fast.
exactly !
I feel that it stems from the fact that the Mooney is much less forgiving of excess speed. For example, try to land 10 to 15 knots fast in a 172 and you'll likely bleed off the speed rather quickly and still make it if the runway isn't super short. Try to land 10-15 knots fast in a Mooney, however, and the minimal drag makes the float last much longer, which could get you in trouble. I knew of a guy that did exactly this at Sky Manor in NJ and it did not end well. But if you manage your speed, you can take a Mooney into 1400 foot strips like I have in the past with no issues.
What's a "round-out"?
More commonly referred to as the "flare". It's when you gently pull back on the yoke just as you land so that the landing gear don't slam into the tarmac.
Since GA planes don't actually flare, the terminology is being modified to round-out to avoid confusion with the actual flaring maneuver of large swept wing jets.
So, I was critical of your video until 2:11 (or so) when you said this was not instructional, so thank you.
This is a very well shot video, but it is not a short field landing. Dragging the plane in at a shallow angle while under power with a 20kt headwind at nearly 1.3 X max gross Vso (56kias) is NOT how to conduct a short field landing in a Mooney. You were likely well under 2900lbs so probably more than 1.3 X Vso as configured. The technique that yields the best results is a steep, power off approach using pitch to hold 1.1Vso (62kias at gross, less if lighter). followed by an aggressive flare as the aircraft enters ground effect. Even then the plane will float 50-100ft due to ground effect.
It seems everybody flies their approaches and landings too fast nowadays... I went from a C-172 to a M-20C and a Cardinal RG with no landing issues. I guess energy management is not taught any more...
Camera position was a huge detraction in an otherwise informative video. Thanks.
I don't think landing would be hard. I think the hardest part would be to communicate with the tower. People would have to know Alpha, Golf, Xray, Sierra etc. Also, which runway to land at and so on.
Ditch it. A landing without floating.
FLEW MOONEYS FOR 40 yrs air speed is to high float just wait be cool till energy is gone
Fabulous video. I've always wondered why Mooney pilots always say STABILIZED landing. Hmmmm, I also notice that all landings are greased perfectly. It's all about over the fence & over the number speeds!!!
It was my friend that was flying in this video. I have since learned to fly the Mooney M20J and it is an absolute joy to fly. Energy management leads to a lot of nice landings.
Obtained a m20c from an owner and was cautioned about floating, along with a demonstration ride. His touchdown configuration was 100mph - no flaps. And he was absolutely right, it certainly did eat up some runway...lol
I'm sure it did!
That sounds like the right formula to float for a bit. I'm assuming you use the flaps in your landings. What speed do you cross the threshold at?
@@btflync I use 65mph with a little power over the numbers and full flaps. Full flaps t.o. and landing was per former Mooney factory guy who owned the fbo where I was based.
80 over the threshold. Then hold the nose up, cut power. Your welcome.
You cannot float far if the airspeed is right. Floating means too much speed. Simple.
Your glide slope is too low to be safe (imagine sudden tail wind). Mooney lands better with some steep glide slope. For short field landing we need to drop power to idle when you feel you have the runway made with power off, while coming in on a steeper than normal (around 1.5 white light in PAPI) approach. Then keep the nose down to maintain 70kt (75kt for long body = 1.3Vso) and at round out you maintain 0 sink rate until the airplane loses enough speed to touch down by itself. The steeper the descent, the less power you need to maintain 1.3Vso, so at round out the airplane will lose speed faster, resulting in shorter floating. When you coming in low like the video, things becomes pretty unpredictable (you were lucky to touch down just at the beginning of pavement) because the actions you perform at round out to obtain 0 sink rate makes airspeed drop by less amount than if you came in steep. So you will gradually decrease the airspeed from 1.3Vso to Vso, which causes long unpredictable floating, unless you start with less than 1.3Vso long way from the runway threshold, which is unsafe.
This was just a day or two before a hurricane came through and the winds were already quite strong, right down the runway. My final was intentionally long so I could establish a nice stabilized approach, but I underestimated the wind a bit. If I had this approach to do over again, I would have come in steeper. Thanks for the comment.
@@briankgrant Thank you for the video we need to have more people learn flying our airplanes otherwise there will be more and more stigma associated that Mooney are hard to land and not safe. It is getting harder to even find a CFI who is willing to fly with in a Mooney.
Adore Mooneys, but, BELIEVE they need air brakes for finer control with the rubber donut gear!!! Excess energy can be disastrous.
For landing, I have not yet found a need for speed brakes. Now descending from altitude after being kept high too long it would sure be nice.
Yes, 1.3 VSO on final, but on short final chop it to 65, when you know you have the runway made.
Love the video (except for the camera placement). I personally prefer to fly an approach that doesn't require me to add power or "drag it in". Rather a steeper approach, will allow for a squeaker of a landing, equally as short, without the need to add power on final to keep from coming up short. Just like you would have done on the Commercial power-off 180 landings. Also, prop strikes come from trying to force the Mooney onto the runway, not from excess speed. Excess speed might cause one to use more runway than is available, but it's not the cause of prop strikes.
jeez. Maybe fly it by the numbers. Jets 'float' because of their laminar flow airfoils, like a Mooney. Just because SO many G.A. airplanes are dump trucks with wings in comparison, doesn't make Mooneys bad.
Good verbal info but filling the screen with the back of the copilot's head made the video worthless. Put the camera on the instruments, the airspeed indicator in particular. Your long, shallow approach reminded me of my long ago B-52 days. Now, being the owner of a 1978 M20J for the past 28 years, I prefer to fly tighter patterns and make steeper approaches. Airspeed control is still critical, of course.
He already explained the reason for it. Where's your perfect video?
OK, been flying 201s for many years, 71 is too fast, short final should be 65. Otherwise, you'll land long.
think you are right on. Maintaining a 3° descent on the VASI, at about 65 knots, allows a fast energy bleed off when you pull back for the float.
Remember, any landing on any aircraft always starts before you depart.