44-40 Black Powder VS Smokeless
2023 ж. 31 Там.
24 477 Рет қаралды
We test three 44-40 load’s through an original 1873 Winchester rifle with a 24 inch barrel.
5.5gr W231, 200gr lrnfp
30gr 3F Swiss, 200gr lrnfp
40gr 3F Swiss, 200gr lrnfp
We test three 44-40 load’s through an original 1873 Winchester rifle with a 24 inch barrel.
5.5gr W231, 200gr lrnfp
30gr 3F Swiss, 200gr lrnfp
40gr 3F Swiss, 200gr lrnfp
Never heard of a wadcutter projectile being called a lead flap point either. Got my first rifle at age 12 and now I am 81.
We always called wadcutters "trashcans". Those were our 158 grain target rounds in .38/.357.
really like your channel, shot bp a ton as a kid got distracted when girls first came into the picture but started watching you and 11 bang bang a year ago and got my own muzzleloaders again. Thanks for reigniting the interest!
Glad to hear it
I've never heard of wadcutters being referred to as "Lead Flat Point" , they've always just been called "Wadcutters" as far as I recall. I've only been working off & on in gunshops since 1981 though & only been loading my own for a few years. People just like to argue I guess. 😂
Agreed a wad cutter usually looks like a flying beer can but smaller.
My thoughts exactly
Boy, those 30 grain loads were sweet and a perfect day for the smoke to linger
Yep
Never underestimate those "outdated" black pills. 200g at 1400fps is a lot of angst packed into a small space.
I learned the hard way about desperado cowboy bullets being too soft. I wouldn't even recommend them for 1000fps. More like 800-900fps. If you remember our emails, your the one who helped me figure it out. Awesome video by the way
Yeah! I had another guy leave me a comment saying he got leading in his barrel at 1000fps with the same bullets
Loading 44-40, never had one but knew people with them. The short of it is loading with 3F and a long drop tube, in the neighborhood of 30" or vibrating down, they were using less than 40 grains, one of these fellows had old balloon heads that would take 40 gr. with ease. One of the fellows I knew used wheel weights exclusively, others used soft lead and firmed it up with extra tin or a little WW's. Soft was not used too much in rifle loads due to leading.
You are going to love that 44-40!
I already do
There's a sight called "chasing the 44-40 , a few guys ( long term testing and research ) broke down loads ( originals ) and compiled a many paged archive of the 44-40 from 1873 to early smokeless and the "high velocity" loads , a very invaluable resource for early cartridges . The soft bullets need sized larger , and also check your cases , make sure your not sizing down those 44cal bullets , softest lead can be fired fairly fast upwards 1400fps , your bullets too small for your bore
I am not sure whether or not I should be ashamed to admit that I grinned ear to ear when I saw the thumbnail for this video. There's definitely something wrong with me. May I never recover. 😆
Man, I love this channel. In a MANLY WAY, of course!!
Great video and awesome thumbnail!👍
Thank you
The .44 WCF (.44-40) is the only time, pre the short lived John Browning era (which Winchester inevitably pounded off), was one of the few times they actually got it right!
I’m going to go out on a limb and say most of the people who say definitively “you can’t load 40 grains of powder in a (45 Colt or 44-40 WCF)” either are just regurgitating something they heard from a fudd or are people who are scared of compressing black powder, or probably a mixture of the two.
Fun stuff and very interesting and informative. Thanks!
Thank you
Good video 44 40 is a beast!!
Fantastic as always sir! You’re the man. Man.
Thank you
I've had the same results with those desperado bullets. They are a good company and have great shipping speed, but those bullets are pretty much meant for smokeless. That hard blue lube does nothing with black. The fouling hardens very quickly and the gun becomes very inaccurate after only a dozen shots or so. I've switched to exclusively 20-1 alloy (pretty soft), but with SPG lube. Man, that stuff is great. No leading and it keeps the fouling soft for a really long time so accuracy stays good all day. I use a big lube design from NOE molds that carries a ton of grease and it works great. I've never pushed them to 40 grains but with about 33 grains they stay very clean and leading free with SPG, and no need for a card between the bullet and powder. Another great video, thanks!
I've had same results with the blue lube on desperado bullets. I couldn't get through 2 cylinders on a Colt open top clone. I made it through 6 with my own cast bullets with SPG lube.
Checked their website. 8-9 Brinnel lead is their target and they build these bullets for CASS function, low power loads. In that they seal better than harder lead for the low recoil, low velocity needs of CASS as well as provide a safer "splat" on metallic targets being used at CASS competitions.
@@lifted_above I’m sure they work great with smokeless. But the lube they use is no good for black.
@@66smithra Seems like that is definitely the case.
Thanks for sharing!! Your videos have continued to elevate the understanding behind BP and loads. Keep up the great work!!
Thank you
A couple of years ago i decided I wanted to shoot my 1873 rifle. To effect that I ordered a bag of Starline brass and cast up some some bullets using the original Winchester mold I also have. I loaded those cartridges with 38 grains of FFg Goex. I have only shot 12 of the 100 I loaded. After that I decided to see about loading some smokeless cartridges. The original Winchester bullet does not work with a smokeless. The original bullet does not have a cannelure groove to crimp the case mouth into to keep the bullet from recessing into the case. With a black powder charge the bullet sits on top of the powder. I then ordered a Lee 429-214-SWC mold. Under that bullet I loaded 5.9 grains of Red Dot. A nice plinking round. The lube I have been using is Lee Liquid ALOX. I have used an 1882 tool to load the original bullets and black powder. Although I find it a bit easier to use my Lee press. The rifle and original reloading tools I have had since the late 1960’s, but the person we inherited it from did not have the opportunity to teach me how to clean up a firearm after shooting black powder before cancer took him. I knew the process was different than smokeless. The last six years have been a marvelous learning experience. Thank you KZhead.
Excellent
Great video buddy!! Thanks!!
Thank you
Another great video!
Thank you
Great info as always thanks
Thank you
Outstanding!! Keep up the great work 👍 Cheers !!
Thank you
You know, the whole knit picking over bullet names is petty. You described it just fine. Technically the guy criticizing you was wrong. Wadcutters, also referred to as full wadcutters are literally lead cylinders and do not extend beyond the end of the cartridge in many instances. They are most often used for shooting matches as they leave a clean hole in paper targets for easy judgement calls. Semi wadcutter rounds are usually flat point, extend outward in a cone shape into the cylindrical body and lube grooves and will pretty much always extend beyond the mouth of the cartridge. Round nose flat point bullets or flat ball bullets are only slightly different from semi wad cutters and make little to no difference for anyone who isn't knit picking. You are doing fine, ignore the angry nay sayers.
Always interesting... always informative.
Thank you
I may have to try some smokeless in my big 50 at some point. So clean, so quiet.
Round nose flat point is how I know them👍
Good video. Thanks
Good stuff. An 1866 in 44-40 is on my wish list. And some brass for it!
I've only loaded .45 Colt and you CAN fit 40 grains of 3F in a case, you have to meter it out a little at a time and tap the case so the powder settles (or use a drop tube). I did the same thing when I loaded .45 Schofield, I believe it only held 35 grains, but blackpowder is very forgiving and volumetric measures aren't great, letting your skin bulge into the measure, reducing the powder load a few grains. Besides, blackpowder loves compression and an air gap is the Devil. :) One day I'll load some 2f to see how it does. The recoil might be milder, just like when I shoot 2f in my .44 revolvers.
Thanks for another great video and by the way, you are correct about your bullet description. A full wad cutter looks like a 55 gallon drum. The semi has a short, stubby nose and what you were shooting is a round nosed flat point end of story. Keep these great videos coming.
I miss my original Winchester 1873 .38-40 I had. I have a Miroku Winchester 1866 copy that's a lot of fun to shoot, but there's something about the original guns. A local gun shop has a repop 1873 in .45 Colt but someone took out the half cock notch, other than that it's a nice gun. One thing I love is those old original Winchester rounds, the .44-40, .38-40 with black powder, they sound just like the old rounds they used for sound effects in the old western movies.
I’ve heard the desperado bullets are best for cowboy action. Cowboy loads are light and the targets for matches are usually pretty close. So maybe that’s why they are made so soft? I don’t know. What I do know, is that your videos are awesome and I look forward to them!
Thank you. Yes they’re really soft and aren’t made for extreme accuracy
Very interesting bullets. Might be a good choice for use in revolvers especially since so many handguns (looking at you Ruger) seem to have a hard time getting chamber dimensions right in WCF and 45 Colt chamberings.
If I am not mistaken, in the early days of cartridges, they were balloon headed cartridges.
Correct
I have an old loading data insert that came with Lee 44-40 dies. It has a number of smokeless loads that get you up to 12-1300fps. My favorite is a 240gr cast lead with 23.7 grains of Reloader 7.
Great vidio sir very interesting thank you have a great weekend and be safe out there
Thank you
From what you presented, the 30 load looks like the best combo of power and acceleration. Throwing out the 1205 load, it was the most consistent
Definitely
Ahh, terminology and pedants. A never ending cycle, and free entertainment!
Definitely
I hope this is a help. I only shoot soft lead in my muzzle loaders and my grandfather's Winchester (Win. 44) shoots 40gr. of Goex just fine. 200gr. (hard) lead. I believe Swift and others are of a much better quality than 150yrs. ago and I like that. Also I use a drop tube on just about all my cartridges. I have been using this load and method for 50+ yrs. Enjoyed the video. Good luck, keep us informed.
LFP is the right term. Also, TC (truncated cone).
Thank you.
Thank you
Another reason for your inconsistent 40 grain loads is the high rate of compression you had to have in those new 44-40 cases. In the old days most cases were baloon head not solid cases which held approximately 5 grains more with less compression. Also as a side note Swiss powders tend to like no compression or very little to get the best accuracy. I noticed the same issues when loading Swiss vs GOEX powders in my Shatps rifles in 45/70. GOEX likes a fair amount of compression. As far as my black powder 45/70 loads I use a seperate compression die before seating the bullet. All this tends to be mute when you paper patch the bullet and your able to seat the bullet less deep in the case. You have the same discussions with modern 45/70 cases. I forgot to mention that you need to use a black powder lube not modern types. You will get softer fowling and less leading. Try using a 10/1 or 20/1 lead to tin alloy with like an SPG or DLC black powder lube. With softer alloys you can use slightly larger diameter bullets. Soft lead alloys easily slugs up to the bore. Higher velocities do tend to lead the bore more, but the right combination of alloy, black powder lube (soft fowling makes for better accuracy) and powder charges makes for a very consistant muzzle velocity and lower extreme spreads. Good video sir.
You know, I’ve heard for years the Swiss “doesn’t like compression“ but that has been the opposite of my experience. At least with 45 Colt anyway.
If you go supersonic you have to stay there until target impact or you lose zero.... stay subsonic max and arrive on target with ballistic curve exactly with enough mass to accomplish desired goals 😊
You are correct. When a supersonic bullet velocity drops to subsonic, at that transition point ( at what every range that it occurs) the bullet become unstable for a very short period of time. This is very noticeable when shorting long range black powder rifle competition. Many people switch bullets styles and wrights for the 200 yard chicken targets. At that distance many of their rifle loads go subsonic right at about that distance. Much the same would be true of your pistol loads in your 1873's or 1866's but at a far closer distance. The laws of physic's still apply. LOL.
Wouldn't miss this for the world man 💣🇺🇸👍💪
Looking forward to the comparison of hard cast bullets with 30gr and 40gr bp. The speed of the 40gn was pretty impressive, and without the leading im sure the accuracy would improve…some. Great video! Love that 1873!
Thank you
The original cases were called balloon head, not safe to use today. This gave more space for a powder charge. When using black powder there should be no air space as this will increase pressure. A 40 grain compressed powder charge is fine for the rifle.
Great Video Love the 44-40 .Have Ubreti 1873 with 30 barrell two inch groups no cleaning between shots 36 grains of 2 ff Swiss 1-20 lead & tin mix 100 yards .. Cheers from Australia
In my youth there were 2 types of .44-40 ammo, a low pressure variant for old SAA pistols and a higher pressure load for rifles only. Your test of 30 gr. vs .40 gr. of 3F reminds me of that.
I love the 44-40, it is a great round out to about 100 yards. I use 10:1 lead mixture. In my 1892 they are very accurate. I loaded per my manual i use 3 f and i can hit out to 30 yards with it tin cans, beyond that it is a bit hit or miss due to some of the cast bullets RNFP being a bit imperfect in balance. It would be better if I weighed them and removed the imperfect but not visible bad ones
I am jealous, that is a beautiful ol rifle.😁
Thank you
I agree with you on both the case capacity and the lead flat point nomenclature. I love my 1873 carbine and since I got it, it has seen exactly 50 rounds of factory ammo because I needed to cases only. I have found that 27.2 grains of reloader 7 with the 200 gr soft lead flat point l print dead on poa at 100 yards and give me sweet little group right at 2 inches so long as I do my part. It prints almost exactly the same to its favorite BP load of 32 gr of FFFg equivalent Shutzen with the same .427 soft cast lead round nose with 5gr by volume of grits topped off between the powder and bullet to give the powder good compression. Both loads are very similar speed wise with them both being in the neighborhood of 1175 +/-. The BP loads tend to give the tighter velocity spread but poi has no noticeable change, at least not with my older eyes.
Excellent. I was reading about R7 in 44/40. I guess it works very well and makes lower pressures
It would look hilarious shooting one of those black powder loads through a suppressor
I think I know the reasoning behind loading with 3F but I wonder if duplicating the original load with 2F would result in better accuracy. In any case congrats on the new acquisition and I hope it brings you joy and some excellent Jack rabbits.
I have had 2 1873s in 44-40 one was 0.431" the other 0.432", a 1892 that was 0.426" and now a Mireku - Winchester that's 0.429"
Surprisingly efficient, and powerful for a black powder cartridge. More powerful than a 10mm out of the rifle. I wouldn't blame the 40 grain powder charge for the accuracy either. As you said it's the bullet construction.
you can shoot all day with plenty of lube. when smith and wesson was developing the .357 magnum in conjunction with elmer keith they had significant leading problems they made the lead harder to combat this , in the end they fixed it by adding an extra lube groove.
Hahaha...looks like the 38 caliber semi-wadcutters I used to have for my 38 special revolver. They were excellent for my pistol. Mine however was modern smokeless as the pistol was too. I still like those for the 38 special.
Historically, wadcutters don't necessarily have a flat point. A lot of modern wadcutters have that truncated cone shape, but wadcutter refers to the hole characteristics for target shooting. That's probably where angry commenter is shooting from. Ref: From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners by Glen E. Fryxell and Robert L. Applegate Useful reference for all things cast bullets. Whole thing is available online for free as a PDF or web page.
Nice video. I wasn't surprised at the amount of lead you had to deal with when you cleaned the gun. Soft lead will do that, as I found out by going cheap and casting soft lead semi wad cutters for my .45 1911. 🙂
Yeah I use wheel weights for all my bullets and I don’t have a problem at 1200fps
Nice video.
Thank you
I'm not a reloader and fire factory Winchester Smokeless .44-40 (44WCF) though my excellent almost like new condition 1890 vintage Model 73 and can tell you that it is VERY accurate out to 150 yards by personal experience. Can easily hit a woodchuck size target at that range. Also easily hit a gallon milk jug filled with water (my fave target) at 100 yards and a soda can at the same range but I can occasionally miss the soda can due to me rather than the rifle. Any 73 that is not that accurate is likely fairly well worn.
Jake when you shoot BP loads you need a boolit with a wide geese groove, and be sure to use a real soft lube. SPG makes a good one but it aint cheap, i make my own out of beeswax and olive oil. the crayon lubes the company's use will do nothing! you can look at a recovered boolit and it will still be in the groove. if it aint spinning off in the bore and the muzzle aint wet and sticky after the shot, your bore will look like yours every time! i shoot soft lead in 38-55 no problem.
Yeah I always melt the lube off and use my homemade BP lube of lambs tallow and beeswax. Desperado bullets claims the lube they use works well with BP but I used my own stuff just to be consistent.
I've seen bullet moulds listed stating the shape is "Round Nose Flat Point"
nice video ! yeah some of these bullet guys make really Soft lead. I prefer to make my own, Biglube has a really nice black powder 200gr. bullet mold LOVE IT! "Mav Duchman" I love the 44-40 though! the action stays pretty clean! everything goes out the end! and I think thats apart of the reason the fouling gets so bad.
Great video Jake! My 44wcf journey started out several years ago when I bought my first 73. That gun turned 144 years old this past August. My bore slugged out to .433” though, so I had to use soft lead with black powder so the lead could expand to fill the rifling. Your barrel being .425” is interesting though. Since you said it started out as a 38wcf, they either rebarreled it or bore out the original and then sleeved it I’m guessing. But I’ve never had a problem getting 40 grains of BP in any of my cases either. I compress the load down to where the bullet just touched the top of the powder and then a little more compression with the bullet. Now I use a bullet from Accurate Molds which has a wide lube groove, and I’ve never had any issues with leading and I’m pushing them at around 1300 as well. The bullet mold is 43-215C. I lube it up with SPG and to date I have loved it. No leading and the extra lube definitely helps with fouling. But if you’re ever inclined to get rid of that 73, reach out to me. I’m alway up to a challenge. 😉
Excellent
Use a drop tube when loading black it will take less room in the case !
She's a beaut!
Thank you
I was talking to a guy who claims to get 90 grains of black powder in his 44 magnum Blackhawk, told me 45 colt shouldn’t fit more than 35 grains. I kept it to myself that I thought he was mistaken in the numbers. Asked about his set up for getting 90 grains of black powder in a 44 magnum brass, and he said he’s never loaded black powder brass in his life, just packs the cylinder on a ruger Blackhawk and by black powder he uses triple seven. Some people really believe the words coming out of their mouths. It’s such a blessing when you meet a black powder enthusiast that is humble and really knows what they are talking about. It’s even better when you meet a black powder enthusiast that is insane and breaks all the rules for fun.
lol I’ve heard some tall tales and 90gr in a 44 mag case definitely qualifies.
You do such a good job on your channel experimenting and thoroughly talking through all the questions that pop up in my mind. I’m definitely learning a lot.@@Everythingblackpowder
Wonder how the gauged velocity back in the day and how accurate it really was.
I use the Desperado bullets . I think it's their lube not the lead . I cast my own pure lead bullets now an use black powder lube ( lamps tallow & bees wax) and the barrel is a lot cleaner John
I melted the lube off and used my homemade BP lube made from lambs tallow and beeswax. I use it on all my BP bullets and it works swell
Very nice rifle and I like the lower velocity loadings Even at low velocities the big soft bullets should still pack a pretty good wallup to whatever it hits. Although I have never heard of Desperado Bullets I have been trying to find some Round nose flat point or semi wadcutter store bought bullets of a brinell hardness of 7-8 , or if anyone makes them the same bullet but with a Hollowpoint. Reason for this is that I want a 44 special Load to use in my Rossi 92 44/Special/44 magnum carbine with 16 inch barrel that will be less than the speed of sound for my ears and shoulder sake and better performance both outside and inside for home defense . I could use Hardcast for just shooting targets but for a bullet to have better Performance on game and for home defense use that a softer bullet and a hollowpoint gives . And decide on a smokeless powder and load that would provide good case fill (preferably without using a filler) and at the same time keep velocities from about 800 fps-1,000 fps from the 16 inch barrel. I am almost 64 and low recoil and blast are getting more and more important to me the older I get ! 🙂 Would this bullet be okay for my wants or do you know of a bullet company that makes a round nose flat point or semi wadcutter that will expand at these low velocities that I am wanting ,maybe with a hollow point ? What do you think about for a powder like I am looking for ? Thank you Much
The 44WCF is the holy grail calibre…. I’ve shot lots of deer, lots of wild hogs and a black bear..it drives tacks… hits hard… it’s a killer. I use to claim the 45 colt as cool…. I’ve switched all pistols n lever guns to 44-40 and never ever looked back never will.
Black powder needs oxygen to burn. Maybe 40 grains is just too much, and doesn’t leave enough air in the cartridge for it to do it’s work.
Awesome Video Thanks for sharing! I have the same rifle & its a lot of fun to shoot. BTW, that excessive leading/fouling you got, most likely comes from those specific bullets, meaning, they were constructed with a "smokeless (Blue) lube, not necessarily designed to be used with black powder, i.e., SPG or something similar. I have experimented in the past wtih the same bullet & lube and, with the same grime accumulating inside the bore. The properties inside black powder lubes are more conducive to anti-fowling, or at least slowing it down, as compared to smokeless lubes. Throughout the day, it may affect your accuracy but it will not hurt the barrel. Great job as usual.
Thank you but I always melt off the smokeless lube and lube them with my homemade BP lube made from lambs tallow and beeswax.
Thank you for the info. I have been eyeing a uberti 1873 in 44-40. The uberti is the deluxe model with a 30 inch barrel. I am thinking i may look for a 45 colt. I like to push the velocity as much as possible with black powder. I was thinking it would be a nice gun to push a bullet out there a little farther. I am set up for 45 colt so if i can only push a 200 grain bullet at 1100 to 1200 feet per second accurately i might as well stick to 45 colt and push a 255 grain to 1200 feet accurately. I believe if i remember right thats what you getting out of a rifle in 45 colt a while back. Maybe i am misunderstanding or remembering wrong i am fairly new to the black powder cartridge stuff.
Dam,right,man
Dam,good,job,1
That very much parallels my results with a 45 Colt 1892....Top end BP loads need harder alloys, yes.... A good BP lube helps a lot with leading.
I shoot Desperado .428 in my unberti 1873 with no leading problems. This week with 10 rounds of t7 3 f 25grain (1325fps). Then 10 rounds with 30 grains t7 3 f (1530). The 30 grain load was not accurate and shot high. Too much for my rifle. The rifle cleaned right up with water then oil, no leading. Just my recent experience.
I own a 1873 that is a first generation rifle. When I got this rifle I ran into a lot of right and wrong information about cartridges and reloading ammunition. What my research has found is that in the 1800s and before the bullets are made from pure lead. Pure lead has a hardness of 9-14. This is why the bore size is a loose fit for nonfired bullets. What happens with pure lead bullets is when fired they expand from .425-.430. This is what seals the bullet and prevents lead fowling. The rifles that are made with barrels for smokeless powder are designed for harder bullets and higher pressure of smokeless powder. With my research I found that reloading with black powder you must always pack the powder with as much powder up to the max load required. Unlike smokeless that is a loose fill. Black powder must be tight so there are no air gaps. Both loose powder and or hard lead bullets cause inaccuracies, and lead fowling. Be very cautious, and careful with black powder and hard lead bullets in old rifles.
Obturate is what it’s called. This rifle shoots exceptionally well with 35gr of 3F and a 240gr rnfp. And the bullets are made from wheel weights which is not pure lead. I find it’s far more important to use a good black powder lube and a thin card wad between the powder and the bullet. Recently I’ve started using a card wad in all of my BP cartridges and it’s made a noticeable difference.
Wow that 30 grain seems to be a good load. To bad on the 40 grain. Glade that 73 Winchester turned out to be a great rifle.
I just got some 240gr bullets I’m gonna size them down and fry them with 30gr
@WillardMcBain can't wait to see what works best. I am still curious to see if with harder lead, you get that 40 grain load to work. But at he same time, that 30 grain load looks about perfect as a simple and easy everyday load.
@snappers_antique_firearms I’ve still got a couple things to try
that 40 gr load pretty much gives the same power as a 44mag handgun
To avoid leading, I would use dedicated BP lube, like SPG. Plus a bullet with a lot of lube groove volume, like Dick Dastardly's Big Lube bullet molds. And a good alloy like 20-1 (Pb-Sn) or maybe a dilluted Lyman #2 - 90-5-5 (Pb-Sb-Sn) may be too much, my best guess for 1400fps velocity would be 92-4-4.
PS. If there are availability issues with Big Lube molds, there is the dependable option of Accurate Molds. Lots of designs to choose from, if the goal is maximum performance out of BP .44-40, I would start with their 43-215C or 43-215C1.
Thank you
@@Everythingblackpowder I have some experience shooting BP .45-90 with a 34" barrel Sharps replica, even at distances like 800yds, with velocities in the 1200 - 1300 fps range (68 grains Swiss 1.5F, Lyman Postell 535gn bullet). Got some nasty leading in the beginning - with commercially available bullets made of soft and cheap 99-0-1 alloy and improperly applied lube. Another thing to pay attention to is bullet deformation if we compress the (black) powder with the bullet too much. In such case a dedicated powder compression die / plug is a good option. Buffalo Arms offer some. Thank You for great videos and greetings from Poland!
Played with 38 40 before.
I've heard some things I believe to be incorrect on some channels. It isn't my place to correct them for two reasons. One, I may be wrong. Two, it isn't my channel. Unless I hear something completely unsafe or egregious within my knowledge base, I leave things alone. I found people react to and comment, on things they think they know and wish to show everyone else they know it. In other words, they are showing off. People who negatively comment on terminology or whether an amount of powder will fit, are people who believe they have the right to, not only tell, but to force their thoughts onto others. They believe they are correct and that's it. Unfortunately, they are just showing and proving their ignorance to the KZhead World.
Those bullets need a gas check. We used to use fiber card for gas checks in 45's.
Yeah a gas check would take care of that
Most prolific Carthage in the old west was actually the 3840 the 4440 was probably second, and about eagle with the 45 Schofield and Colt.
I have been shooting guns since I was 16, and been shooting black powder since 1988 as well as have worked for CCP/Pinkerton security agency back in the early 1990’s. And as I recall a Wadcutter is a flat faced bullet, that has the profile of a steel pin or a bolt. And a semi-wadcutter is not nor has it ever been a round nosed flat bullet, as the profile of a semi-wadcutter similar to that of the end of a funnel on its nose. The only thing that looks anywhere close to that bullet you showed, which I had to take a second look at is that of a Keith style semi-wadcutter and it still does not look identical. And you typically wouldn’t shoot any kind of wadcutter in a magazine fed gun, unless it’s designed to use wadcutters. Which is why wadcutters are primarily used only in revolvers, but there are some semi-automatic pistols that can shoot some versions of wadcutters. To my knowledge there are not any magazine fed rifles, that are designed to use wadcutters. But you could shoot them out of single shot breach load rifles just fine.
Hi ,in mid 90s I drew an antelope tag and used a Italian 73 carbine 18 in bbl , speer jacketed 429 rnd nose flat point ( for 44mag ) an 30 grns 3fff shoot him at about 170 to 180 yds .went back several times to re check distance . Hit him right in the middle of the rib cage , my buddy saw the dust thru glasses .the buck just walked away behind the ridge line . Ran to the top and he was just calmly walking away at about 50 yds , broke his neck and down he went .when we got him dressed out the speer bullet was exactly were it should have been ,fully mushroomed under the hide on the opposite side . Perfect performance but at that distance couldn't even tell I hit him . Was way to far a shot , in brush I easily could of lost him but in Nevada sage country it worked out .excellent eating . B . P. Is all I shoot , but I took a long shot out of excitement hit a man that way and he's down , game is tough .love your channel , and the way you respectfully call bullshit on well entrenched B.P. myths ,legends and just well established misinformation ! Keep up the great work .M.B.
Thank you
So to be historically accurate John Wayne would've carried a 73 or 76 winchester and a 73 colt chambered in 44-40, the 73 winchester could then also be chambered in 44-40 so that both firearms could use the same ammo ,76 winchester uses a heavier cartridge
Interesting video. Thanks. Did you compress the powder before seating the projectile? Do you think a grease cookie would help the leading when using soft lead?
Maybe but I think what would really help would be to use a hard cast bullet with a grease cookie.
The 44WCF is a great old cartridge. When hand loaded, its a very capable cartridge. Ill give you a tip. For more diversity, you can use 44 special load data for the 44 -40. It delivers good results, for modern smokless loads. The 200 lead cast bullet is not the only option for the 44WCF. Use lubbed wads under your bullet to eliminate leading.
Funny you should mention that. I just loaded some up with 240gr bullets.
I been playing with 44-40 hand loads for 30 years. Most factory ammo is a joke. I use full power load data for the 44 special and it has always worked well. If your barrel is 425 of an inch, just size your bullets to that size. I found out that generally, for me anyway, the 44-40 loves high velocit and i usually get better accuracy the faster the bullet goes. Id like to see you work up loads and do a video or 3 on different bullet weights for the 44wcf. Keep up the good work!
Oh, and lyman makes a 225 grain semi wad cutter with a gas check bullet mold. Thats one of my favorite bullets for serious work. Look at lymans cast bullet hand book for load data on that bullet in the 44-40. Talk about power! That hard cast bullet means business!
@@blueduck9409 well those 240gr rounds were loaded with 30gr of 2F and averaged 950fps and grouped absolutely terrible. 8 inch at 25 yards terrible. Do you think it would improve with 35gr of 3F to get the velocity up? The 30gr 3F 200gr RNFP have been the most accurate by far and they move right at 1200fps. Any suggestions?
@@Everythingblackpowder Yes. Do everything you can to get the most velocity. Maybe check the size of the bullet. With a 240 grain bullet, sonetimes i use 777. I know thats a dirty word on this channel, but it works. I know smokless powder is also frowned on, but try unique with that 240 grain bullet. Use 44 special load data for it.
😂 always a professional somewhere 😂😂
Some trivia ....The yellow handle colt revolver John Wayne carried in most of his movies was a 44-40. He carried 45 colt bullets in his cartridge belt in some of the scenes but the revolver was his personal colt and was 44-40.
balloon head held 40 gr , modern shell is more like 35 gr , as you know you can fit 40gr in modern brass but i think its too compressed myself, your point on 2 f is valid and i believe the early loads were 2 f with a 215 gr projectile at a touch over 1300 fps ,i think you will enjoy this rifle more than you realise ,i wanted to ask if your kibler southern mountain and colonial were rifled or smooth bore , cheers big ears from down under
Thank you. Yes both my Kiblers are rifled.
Desperado makes GREAT bullets. I have used their stuff a few times when trying to determine if a particular weight or style is something I want to buy a mould for. As you determined, they just don't take kindly to going much over 1,000 FPS, which is fine for their target audience, Cowboy Action shooters. As to the individual excoriating you on calling an RNFP a "flat point", I have to wonder if his veins bulge when bullseye shooters call the 185 and 200 grain match bullets used in the 45 Auto "wadcutters" and not the more proper "semi-wadcutter". Is he offended by the term "ball ammo" when the bullet is actually a round nose? "Conicals" when they're ogival? I always take into account the cartridge and firearm when someone uses a term...since I don't know many lever action rifles that will feed a full wadcutter round, I infer someone referring to a "flat point or "flat nose" being used in one- especially with traditional BP- is talking about an RNFP (as opposed to an RN or HP) lead (not jacketed) bullet.
Yeah my 1894 Marlin in 45 colt won’t hardly feed semi wads which is unfortunate.
When it comes to Store bought bullets and that pretty little blue ring of lube the, term ship it must work it may, comes to mind. Do you resize your Black powder cartridges? I'm not sure if there's a need to as long as they chamber and are firmly crimped in compression against the powder charge. BTW NOE bullet mold 432-216-RF-Z1 looks interesting with the wider lubrication groove.
I don’t resize 44/40 and 50/70 because I only own one firearm that’s chambered for that caliber
Hi I have a question and that is what would happen if the black powder crumbs were of different sizes in a Sharps cartridge or a muzzle loader