Ever wonder what Pokemon would be like if Pokemon could learn 5 moves? World Champion Wolfe Glick is here to tell you his thoughts.
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Do you think Pokemon should be able to learn 5 moves?
No
In a different format sure, maybe even 6 moves. For the sake of mainline and vgc, no, there are other things to balance.
6v6 singles would turn into quite the defensive battle 😣 I don't mind introducing new mechanics each gen but the reverse power creep (without dynamax) is painfully evident without megas
Yes
Nope
ok but what if every pokemon could learn “Super Explosion: 1500 base power, kills your entire team” that’s what we REALLY need in pokemon rn
GAMEFREAK DO NOT HIRE THIS MAN
Hey hey, chill out satan! This ain't hell yet y'know.
IF THEY WOULD GIVE ME ELECTRODE
Perhaps...
What if it had wonder gard
According to the developers, they’ve tested out giving Pokemon 3, 5, 6, 8, etc moves. And 4 moves was the most balanced according to them.
_Much_ more restrictive movepools would allow for more moves and still be balanced. That doesn't mean it would be desirable of course.
@Nameless, do you have a source? I don't doubt you, but I'd be interesting in reading more!
@@johnpancho6586 I believe it was somewhere on either Twitter or KZhead
@@johnpancho6586 The source is that i made it the fuck up!
@@Hanreky based
"When you let Pokemon learn an additional move, all Pokemon have more moves." That's the hard-hitting journalism we subscribe to Wolfey for.
@@jenniferlee6333 Magikarp can get bounce/hydro pump through events and in sun/move bounce is tutorable so a moveset of splash, flail, tackle, bounce and hydro pump. This completely changes the usability of magikarp by allowing it to keep splash. While most regard it as a useless move it can give the player up to *four* points of cuteness, which is by far the most points it can attain in the cute appeal. While it is still not a typical choice it creates a multi-use magikarp build for contest, competitive, and casual play. I'm against the addition of five moves because it ruins the useless novelty magikarp holds by giving it too much power.
@@jenniferlee6333 I was joking since it doesn't actually change anything with Magikarp because they're still incredibly useless, but those are good points.
Who knows maybe having a 5 moveslot would be very beneficial for Unown's viability.
how would unown benefit from that
@@teethpilled3894 More Room for hidden power
@@teethpilled3894 it would gain 1.25 times more hidden power per unown creating a better unown:hidden power ratio, thus moving it from PU, and most likely being banned to Ubers, or even Anything Goes. Hope this helps!
@@owithalineybutitsupsidedow923 that's really not a surprise. That's a legendary we're talking about according to the anime
@@owithalineybutitsupsidedow923 isn't it in ZU? The tier below PU?
We should redo our championship battle, but my Pokemon have 5 moves and yours don't. Feels fair!
first reply (hi john i love your content)
🤔🤔🤔
there’s a custom showdown format that actually lets you use more than 4 moves :O
I mean it would make it a much fairer fight. XP jk
@@jaspermidnight850 what's it called?
"Let me know about how the tangents are" Unedited Wolfey: Gives a 20 minute pre-battle discussion in a Poke Center revolving heavily around bagels. Me: Yeah 😎👍
Now the real question becomes "What about a 3rd type?" Or in a similar vein, dual type attacks. Which flying press already is so this one is less out there i suppose
If they add a 3rd type, Wolfe will have his work cut out for him making best/worst type combo tier list videos 😅
I enjoyed dual typing a lot in the trading card game. Maybe we could have it for a generation or two, just like mega-evolution, z-moves etc.
Three types would be interesting to see. Closest thing we have to that right now is Dhelmise thanks to its ability essentially giving it STAB on a third type ⚓
How would dual type moves work for something like Greninja and Protean? Would it gain the dual typing too? That could be terrifying.
@@caldw615 If flying press is anything to go by, it'll have a default single type.
18:26 Behemoth Blade 10% Accuracy Yes, let’s make Zacian balanced by making Behemoth Blade Focus Blast!
lol, I missed that one
Metal Claw is now viable
@@G3drummer so did Zacian
Nah focus blast is less than 10 if u ask me
@@oceanman1999TAKE MY LIKE AND LEAVE
I remember reading in an interview somewhere that the lead designer for Sword/Shield spent a ton of time during development playtesting both a build of the game where Pokemon could learn only 3 moves, and a build where they could learn 5 moves. Both experiments were eventually scrapped for reasons very similar to those covered in this video. An extra move slot involves less decision making in teambuilding, and creates a wider gulf between the Pokemon that are already good and the ones that aren't, while reducing the move slots increases opportunity cost so much that Pokemon get buried super deep into extremely specific niches. Even though the Pokemon devs often seem to struggle with the delicate balance of a game with this many pieces (who wouldn't struggle with that?), the disruptions to the ecosystem caused by changing the number of move slots was too obvious to miss. This isn't purely a hypothetical; it seems the experiment already failed so early it didn't even make it to a public release.
That even wasn't the first time they had experimented with the number of moveslots. Ruby and Saphire Gamefreak experimented with 6 but pared it back to 4.
Source?
@@TheMissingLink2 If I remembered where I saw it, I would have just said it. It was somewhere pre-release talking about the game's development, so this would have been years ago. Human brain is very good at remembering information, very bad at remembering where that info came from.
@@svierrodcuppycake3655 Not an issue friend. I appreciate you replying.
If anyone happens to find/have found this interview, please point in the right direction. It sounds like a super interesting read.
Man I never knew Wolfe made a hand-raised pie to take the 2016 World Championship. Strategic move to have the pie perfectly placed to cartoon float your opponents away from their devices!
I mean, one way of balancing it could be to have a 5th move be limited to a held item like Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves were. You'd be sacrificing your held item for an extra move.
thats not a bad idea at all
It's a cool idea, there would have to be some serious limitations on it probably via it having some kind of drawback and/or seriously limiting what moves could be learned with it otherwise it would just be the best item in the game and you would run into some of the same issues Wolfey was describing. Still could be super cool though! Especially if it could even grant access to moves they didn't normally learn.
This would have to be the cost. If it wasnt tied to a held item, Zacian C would stomp the entire metagame when home comes out. If it has to hold a useless item to get that slot, Zacian-C can't use it, since it has to hold Rusted sword.
Oh, like rings that give you certain abilities like an elemental spell! Yeah, I think that would not only be a good balance, but it would be very cool to be able to further customize your pokemon, if only a little bit.
That would definitely be fun. In competitive, no item dupes would heavily restrict this.
"If a Pokémon can learn an additional move, all Pokémon will have more moves." Ah yes, thank you for opening my eyes Wolfey
Personally, I think having a few more multi-function moves like Pollen Puff would be interesting. Maybe a move that lowers attack on the enemy, but raises attack when used on an ally? Something like that.
Why not a healing move like this? Beating the damage out of your allys.
@@MouldMadeMind Heal Pulse, but it hurts your allies. 👌
@@MouldMadeMind isn't that just a regular damaging move
@@MouldMadeMind Sooo... Its just Pollen Puff
@@MouldMadeMind Do you mean you damage your ally and heal your ally for a % of damage like giga drain etc?
Aside from the great analysis on a 5th move, this is probably the best explanation of the nuances in competitive Pokémon I’ve seen
There’s actually a more extreme version of this in the anime-the champion’s Dragonite in the Orange Islands uses roughly ten moves over the course of the match. As you’d expect, this gives it a severe advantage.
Somehow he lost
The ten moves was even specifically done by the episode's writer to make this Dragonite "seem" unstoppable.
I think that 4 moves is enough to keep the strategy of a moveset stable enough to predict but usually leaves one unpredictable move based on the number of turns people tend to get per Pokémon.
Wolfey content really firing on all cylinders lately. Feel like it's improved leaps and bounds in the last year (not to say it wasn't good before, but loving the educational/theorycrafting edited style of videos!)
While I’d like having 5 moves in game it’d be pretty horrible for competitive imagine if offensive mons covered all their weaknesses while having boosting and maybe healing moves. Imagine fighting that
Tyranitar w/ STABs, Ice Punch, Superpower/EQ (of your choice) and DDance (or hell maybe even Rock Polish if dependent on Weakness Policy) Mega Metagross w/ STABs, Ice Punch, and either Stomping Tantrum, and either Hammer Arm, Rock Slide or Bullet Punch (Specs) Dragapult w/ STABs, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt/Hydro Pump/Scald (of your choice) and U-Turn and that's just the pseudo-legendaries Nidoking w/STABs, Ice Beam, Subsitute/Flamethrower (of your choice) and Protect or Gen 9 (Scarf) Gardevoir w/STABs, Mystical Fire, Thunderbolt/Shadow Ball/Aura Sphere (of your choice) and maybe Destiny Bond or if not scarfed Calm Mind and/or Draining Kiss
Yeah, they would likely need to implement either a hard-set stringent move list of what each Pokemon can know...or make a hard-set list of "banned" moves regardless of the Pokemon it is on due to possible issues that may arise.
well yes, battling that would be hard, but you could have just as good move on your mon, which evens it out
@@dantemcedgelord9331 only if you bring S tier pokemon yourself. As wolfe pointed out, a 5th move would only widen the gap between the top tier pokemon and the rest of the field. Any attempt to innovate would be thrown out of the window as the S tiers can no longer be countered by anything other than another S tier. Team building would be totally eliminated from the game.
My mind flew to Garchomp, which historically has 4 moveslot syndrome. Yikes.
Loved the Arceus: Legends Agile/Strong set up. Made catching things so much easier. Didn't feel required to have someone with False Swipe around at all times.
This reminds me of a concept that me and my friends thought of that was “What if Pokémon could have all of their abilities at once? How would it change certain Pokémon?” This got brought up when one of my friends stated that according to the game’s lore, bronzong should be heatproof while also levitating to move, therefore having both abilities.
see pokemon mystery dungeon for a decent example. Potentially broken if the two abilities it has are amazing. Trash if either abilities are Meh, or the two abilities contradict each other (Riolu with Steadfast plus Inner Focus. Ability combo being trash)
But the real question is would Neutralizing Gas on wheezing take away its own Levitate
You like saaaaand
I really like this idea. It complements another idea of pokemon being able to hold 2 items, as long that one of its items be a berry. This would open room for GF to invent a lot more of pokemon species-specific items, many combining with said pokemon's own abilities. Poor Delibird and its redundant abilities, hahahah (Insomnia and Vital Spirit)
@@jirehtheprovider Balancing potencially ability combos or contradictions could open opportunity for Gamefreak to improve lots of older abilities. Say, make Magma Armor pokemon immune to Ice-type damage and halve Water Damage in addition to its normal effects; make Ice Body raise the pokemon's defenses during hail, instead of only recover HP; give pokemon with Poison Point a 30% chance of scatter Toxic Spikes everytime it is hit by contact; make pokemon with Damp deal more damage with water-type moves, receive less damage from fire type moves, but take more damage from grass type moves... ....stuff like that. Make classic abilities more useful
i feel like a cool thought experiment could be what if each type got access to a unique benefit in comparison to others. Like fighting types getting a 5th move while bug get access to second item and maybe electric get priority on stab. Would be a really interesting way to consider which Pokemon gets added to your team via this unique potential to another from whatever their typing is, also in order to not over look single type Pokemon either only the primary typing would provide the benefit of said bonus effect or the sole type provides a stronger boost related to their initial benefit.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, always wished they would implement something like that. For a series that revolves around canonical monotype trainers so often, there sure isn't any real benefit to it.
I think it should apply only to the mono types, would make them much better, duo types have better coverage and more stab moves by default, monotypes are usually weaker. Would also be a chance to introduce more mono type flying pokemons, or change some existing ones.
I like that, and because I'm bored, here is what benefit I would give to every Type. Normal: 33% Extra-STAB-Bonus and Stamina cost reduction to Normal-Typ moves (There is a Stamina-System replacing PP in my dream-headcanon-Pokemon) Fire: Burn immunity/ Frostbite and Frost resistance Water: Exhaustion immunity (Exhaustion would affect Stamina causing it to deplete faster) Grass: Sleep immunity Elektro: Paralysis immunity/ If swapped out, recovers much faster from lovered Initiative (Stats changes don't disappear immediately when a Pokemon gets swapped out but rather slowly return to normal if it's removed from the battle for enough turns) Flying: Entry Hazard immunity/ Increase Dodge-Rate against attacks that can aim at multiple targets. Rock: Flinch immunity/ If swapped out, recovers much faster from lowered Def/Sp. Def Bug: Confus Immunity Ice: Frostbite and Frost Immunity/ Burn resistance Ground: Paralysis immunity/ can once per battle protect its held item from attacks like Thief, Knock Off or Trick. Poisen: poisen immunity/ If hit by an absorption move, the non-Poison-Type enemy would receive damage instead of recovering HP Fighting: Force switch immunity/ if swapped out, recovers stamina faster. Ghost: Trapping immunity Dark: Prevent enemies from swapping out via moves like Baton Pass or U-Turn Psychic: Allows to see enemies held Item and active ability Steel: Poisen Immunity Fairy: Attract Immunity/ all enemies stats lowered by 5% if from opposite gender or if the Fairy-Pokemon is Genderless, this only affects genderless enemy Pokemon. Dragon: Very slight resistance to all status conditions/ If swapped out, recovers much faster from lowered Atk/Sp.Atk
@@amigomorton7654 Most of these are either in the game already, or are covered by a specific ability
@@Paladin09 I know, just wanted to have a completed list.
If Pokemon had 5 moves, that would make Pokemon who are naturally limited by four moves absurdly broken (Ex: Mega Metagross, Mega Medicham, Garchomp just to name a few :)
What if the requirements for a 5th move are that it can only be TM moves, and its a held item, so mega evolutions cant do it since they already holding megastone.
@@Slayer8957 Well it will still be very hard to balence
@@Slayer8957 the Devs even said in an interview that they tested giving Pokemon 3, 5, 6, and even 8 move slots. But chose 4 because that's the most balanced amount of move slots for competitive play
@@ultrawinggaming9764 Testing move slots sizes for sword and shield with dynamax and gmax moves is not a good test case. Dynamax has to be one of the most broken mechanics in any generation, and having more move slots would obviously make it more broken. Having more than 5 move slots should be tested barebones with just abilities and items, no other gimmicks.
Toxapex gonna be moooore annoying in singles
Pokemon learning 5 moves is like when someone ran a golf tournament where the hole was bigger. The thought was that it would make the score spread smaller, but it had the opposite effect. Turns out, really good players barely miss putts, whereas less skilled players miss by a lot more. So increasing the size of the hole made those really good players make significantly more putts while the less skilled players only made a few more. Making a change to make everyone better will disproportionately make the strong stronger vs the weak.
3:36 your “I will improve until I deserve it” add on to the speach was kind and genuine and so surreal that it DESERVES a sub. You got mine bud, keep up the good work
I was thinking about this exact scenario for a while now, and the solution that I believe works best is to create a held item that allows for a fifth move to be used. A more practical Z-Crystal, in a sense.
Might have to limit the item to one per team, or things could get out of hand. It could also be an item (or ability!) exclusive to a certain Pokemon. Also, while I'm brainstorming here, would be interesting if you could get a 5th move by sacrificing a move from another mon on the team. Doubt that would work out competitively, but it could be fun as a novelty game mode
@@thatisraelikid37 I think a better way to go about it would be to make it work a bit more like TMs, except they straight up give a pokemon that extra move while held (using them on a pokemon would still work the way it does now). A lot of what made Z-Crystals (and Dynamax) awkward was they were powered up moves already on the pokemon's list. I think this would actually be a good way to bring back HMs in particular, and that way the moves don't have to be made 'EXTRA SPECIAL' to be worth using in the first place. Surf and Waterfall being made into HMs again would be a huge buff to water pokemon though. It doesn't solve the one-per-team clause, but that can be explicit during online battles, while in-game you can have as many as you want. Another option might be a held item that lets certain (any?) pokemon with an exclusive move use those moves, since exclusive moves already exist. I think it would be a problem for Incineroar though, since Darkest Lariat is already good. But that way you could focus on empowering those moves for underpowered pokemon if needed.
I’ve had the idea of allowing TMs function as a one time move when used as a held item, so maybe we could have something like that
@@yeon_ster But that would make it no different from Z-crystals. The only difference would be that you don't have a one-time nuke, making it kind of useless in the long run. It think limited PP should be taken into consideration. Somewhere between 5-10 PP.
@@Strixer-gk2kz No, it would be a one-time utility boost. it would allow more coverage or more support moves that are completely apart from what the mon's set is. It would be a bad idea IMO, but definitely it wouldn't be "useless". Imagine getting to SD on lando without having to waste a moveslot on SD, for example. Absolute insanity.
Video idea: What would I do to balance the Pokémon at the top of the VGC meta right now? What would you do to bring, lando, incin, rillaboom, regieleki, zacian, and anyone else in line?
nerfing intrepid sword to a static 1.2x boost to attack and removing 20 points of speed would be a good place to start imo. the others are more difficult because it's hard to nail down what exactly makes them so good (other than eleki, which I don't want to nerf because I adore it) ALSO GF WHY DID YOU NOT GIVE ZAMAZENTA BODY PRESS AND WHY DIDN'T YOU MAKE BEHEMOTH BASH USE DEFENSE INSTEAD OF ATTACK IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
@@jacksonsmith2955 There are only whole numbers of stage. There isn't a half stage (1.25%) or stuff like that. My suggestion is to put the dogs on par of the other legendaries, that means making the normal forms have 630 stat points and the crowned forms have 680 (like they always were supposed to have). And of course, buff zamazenta.
@@impossiblehanley2732 I didn't mean a half stage, I meant a flat multiplier like Iron Fist.
I'd legalize megas/primals & z-moves 😈
by just redistributing 20 points of zacian's attack into special attack you automatically nerf it by a large degree. most old legendaries have a base 100+ attack stat that they simply don't use. nobody uses kyogre's base 100 attack, or clicks close combat with xerneas's base 130 physical attack, and nobody uses zekrom's base 120 special attack. zacian meanwhile gets to min-max itself and use 20-50 extra stat points out of its bst that other legenadaries are forced to waste. imagine if you swapped zacian's special attack and speed, then changed its ability to pressure. suddenly it's a barely relevant mon that's much weaker than primal groudon, which is the statline every single old legendary shares: high attack in both stats, bad speed, useless ability. or imagine how scary primal groudon would be if it swapped its base 150 special attack with its base 90 speed. thats what zacian feels like right now.
One way to make this interesting is to make the fifth move a 'one time use' move. You can use it once in a set. That would add the dept without making the guessing game that much worse.
But that could still mean that you can't know which of the moves was a one time use which only addresses part of the problem
Thats just z move
@@Junistheogyup
This was incredibly put together, and your tangents were actually quite helpful it giving thorough and complex situations to draw from when breaking down points. Also I think your ideas of legends “style” moves making their way to main games would be very cool and interesting. Landing fire blast much more often but it’s a 100 base move, or hitting scald less but it’s a 100-110 base move. Really interesting
Speaking of the Hisuian region, have you ever considered making a video on a rough draft of how you would craft a team in a Hisuian-restricted format? I’d love to see your thought process on a variety of wonky restrictions. I think it’d make learning how to make a team much more entertaining.
the limited pokemon and moves definitely could make it interesting
@@walesjedi9217 also changes like giga and hyperper beam with no recoil
@@tfg990 don't they lower your action speed, though?
I’ve been following your channel for like three years and it’s only gotten better and better. It’s shocking to me that so many people aren’t subscribed, but on the flip side it’s awesome you’re getting so much visibility!
I'm one of those nasty viewers who don't subscribe. My reason being I was hugely into competitive singles back in Gens 4 and 5, but Pokemon was taking a huge chunk of time out of my life I needed to focus elsewhere. I don't subscribe so I won't be pulled back in. I get the recommendations later, which is fine. Might be a dumb reason, but I really don't want to get back into competitive pokemon. It does still interest me though, of course.
@@ddlc_monikajust checking in have you been able to make a work/life balance change in your life yet? or are you still fasting from pokémon?
Honestly bro, coming from somebody who used to take pokeman far too seriously, your videos and content have been such a treat. You are well spoken and vastly educated about the subject, and your wildly enjoyable to watch. I don't know if I'm ready to dive back into competitive pokemon, but watching your videos has been awesome, and has definitely got me back into pokemon as a whole. I hope you keep making great content, and have fun doing it 😁
Now, a 5th move slot would be a pretty cool ability. Maybe for a smeargle regional evolution
I've been thinking about castform a lot, and I think it specifically would really benefit from learning one or even two more moves. That way it could really embrace its role as a kind of "master of all weather", setting up different weathers when it wanted, and actually having moves to operate in those weathers besides just weather ball. While I think it would be cool to give every pokemon an additional move slot, what I think they should do is give *select* pokemon extra slots, those which either aren't that strong and could use a buff, or so busted that they should be banned anyway. Specifically mons that could really benefit from the additional flexibility.
if your castform needs more weather, you're doing castform wrong. Now, of course he IS a bad pokemon, no doubt on that, but because of the stats, not because the "gimmick" is bad per se. I think that if instead of 70 in all stats he had, like, 100 in all stats like Mythic pokemon such as Mew, Jirachi and Celebi he'd be pretty strong. All of his sets are meant to be "self-sufficient": Sun Castform has either Fire Weather Ball or Fire Blast, Solar Beam, Thunderbolt and Sunny Day (in singles) or Protect (in doubles, where you can count on companions with weather skills). Rain Castform is probably the strongest, counting on Water Weather Ball/Hydro Pump and 100% accuracy Thunder and Hurricane, plus of course Rain Dance/Protect depending on the format, and a great defensive typing such as Water. Then Snow Castform can run Blizzard (no reason to run Weather ball here because blizzard has 100% accuracy in storm... I mean, I guess you could run weather ball in singles if for some reason you want single target instead of AoE because AoE loses power and can be prevented with Wide Guard. In singles there's literally no reason, other than maybe PP which isn't worth the loss in power), Hydro Pump and Fire Blast, which are moves that do not "use" the weather here but they are amazing for coverage and have high base power. And the fourth slot goes to Hail/protect as always. Sadly snow is the worst weather condition so there isn't much to do to "abuse" it other than 100% blizzard (unlike the bonus for fire moves and one-turn solar beam in sun, and bonus for water moves and 100% thunder and hurricane in rain). He obviously would be the worst of the Castforms, but still Fire/Water/Ice is pretty solid coverage. Castform doesn't need new moves, he needs new stats
Like, if Castform ever gets an evolution which is exactly IDENTICAL in EVERYTHING, from move pool to ability, but the evolution has 100 in every stat (or, even better, 130 in sp.atk and 70 in atk), Castform2.0 would be amazing and work exactly the way I described but this time he'd actually be good. He'd be both a staple in weather teams, AND kind of an "anti weather team" in itself because with Weather Ball you can abuse the weather even if your opponent has weather too and changes it (which I guess is a reason to always run Weather Ball instead of Fire Blast/Hydro Pump, because Fire Blast/Hydro pump becomes useless in the 'opposite' weather if they change weather against your will, while Weather ball always has STAB and weather boost even if you're a "Rain Castform" that is surprised by a Drought switch-in. You'd go "uh, guess I'm sun Castform now". I do think the only thing keeping Castform down is those embarrassing stats. (plus, an Evolution could even make original castform somewhat more viable thanks to access to Eviolite. Still a bad pokemon though)
@@TheSpartanS196 The thing is, if you're using castform in a single type of weather, you might as well just use something else instead. Buffing its stats would make it better focused on just one type of weather, but there's plenty of mons which are already good at being under one type of weather. The thing that makes castform *special* is its ability to transform based on weather, in other words its flexibility, which it can't really express with only four move slots.
@@fredranzalot4849 As I said, castform would be able to adapt to any type of weather (but sandstorm. And even then, Weather Ball becomes rock type under sandstorm, which is an offensively good type). Ninetales(or Charizard or whoever abuses sun) will have a hard time the moment a Politoed goes in, while a Sun-based Castform would be like "uh, not ideal, but ok, nevermind" and become water type (thus resistant to water unlike regular fire pokemons) and spam water type, stabbed, rain-boosted weather balls (sure, he won't be able to use solar beam for coverage, but he's not totally crippled by other weather conditions, unlike regular weather abusers who become instantly bad when another weather conditions kicks in). Still kinda unique, if you ask me. As I said, it may even be an anti-weather mon even in teams not based around weather, to pick when you see that your opponent has weather abusers in the team (implying VGC rules here), so he can abuse weather with an all-in-one weather Mon that likes sun as much as it likes rain (not counting hail because "hail teams" sadly aren't a thing since hail is a bad gimmick). He'd need a sandstorm form of course which I hope he'll eventually get (maybe together with his evolution?). Also, I don't remember any other Water type that can learn BOTH Thunder and Hurricane. Its rain form would abuse weather with all three of its moves which is pretty unique. There are water pokemon that know thunder (Kyogre or Politoed himself), and a bunch that know Hurricane (mostly birds like Pelipper and Swanna). Having both is kind of huge
@@fredranzalot4849 also from a competitive standpoint weather moves are usually bad, you want to set weather with abilities instead, using Sunny Day or Rain Dance is a waste of a turn. Bar some really niche situation in metas were weather wars are really common and you want to ABSOLUTELY have your weather condition (and thus you bring both someone with the ability, and someone else with the move, in case your ability user is KOed or to predict Switch-ins and use the weather move AFTER an ability-user switches in and changes it) up at all times at all costs, no reason to use Rain Dance, Sunny day, Sandstorm or Hail when Drought, Drizzle, Snow Warning and Sandstream exist. Hell, if castform had more slots, even as high and six, I'd just make a Rain one (so Weather Ball, Thunder, hurricans, protect) that also nows fire blast (hit supereffectively ice mons under hail) and solar beam (with fire blast/fire weather ball and solar beam, you'd like sun as much as you like rain). You give me a SEVENTH slot? Hydro pump (so you have a water move even out of rain, and can it hard sand teams even in sand, since two "sand" types out of three are weak to water, and weather ball would not be water type anymore under sandstorm). In any case, I'd never waste a slot on weather moves themselves. You don't have to teach him all the weather moves so he can choose his weather depending on the opponent (and if for some reason you want to, you can with 4 moves: weather ball, rain dance, sunny day, hail. There, you have your "multiple weather castform". You choose one "ideal" weather that is the one you'll set with your other mons in your team, but it would still be great in the fact that a weather "you don't like" isn't going to shut him down completely like it would to a Solar Power Charizard under rain. You'd just be "uh, fine then, rain time it is" and either still do your thing in those few turns until you set your ideal condition again, or just even embrace it and don't even attempt to change and just spam weather balls anyway. While with those stats, you could give him 30 moves, he would still suck
From my initial reaction, it would make it wayyyy more unpredictable, cause each offensive mon could learn an extra coverage move.
or even a setup move on top of 4 attacking moves Pseudo-legendaries like Dragonite, Tyranitar, Metagross, Garchomp, Hydreigon, Goodra, Kommo-o, and Dragapult Legendaries like Mewtwo, Zapdos, Terrakion, Landorus-T, Zacian, Urshifu, and Dialga Nihilego Nidoking Incineroar (who now has space for Drain Punch on top of it's current set) Rillaboom (who now has space for Superpower or High Horsepower of your choice, on top of it's current set) Tsareena (who would have both U-Turn and Protect) Blastoise (who may even save space for Shell Smash again on top of it's support options like Yawn and Fake Out) Greninja (i don't have anything to say) Cinderace (look above) Ursaluna i could go on and on as long as i want and another, mons that are bad (partially) because of their movepools will be even worse in comparasion
I'm really glad you adressed that match from 2019. Such a cool moment. Even though I was rooting for you I was happy your opponent won for keeping such a good tech hidden till the perfect moment. He really got you
I love the editing in your videos. Really helps keep me (and I'm sure other people) engaged with the video. Little things like the togekiss spinning at 11:53 is just really small but put a smile on my face lol. Keep it up man!
I loved this video a whole lot more than I was expecting. As someone who's really on the surface level of competitive Pokemon, this gives a LOT of insight as to how the VGC format works, and how the past few gimmicks changed things
The whole part about Landorus and how good it is at using Dynamax kinda drives the point home. It has access to Swords Dance and Max Guard from the same slot. Whaaaaaa?
I think it would be cool if there were expendable move items, like attach a flamethrower pill on one of your mons and they have a one time coverage move
This would be a terrible idea, at least in competitive
maybe just a type-change instead of specific move
sounds great, but only if the move must be compatible, like a TM. then it wouldnt be random
@Just Some Guy with a Beard Not necessarily if the Pokémon has to learn the move to use the item
You mean z-moves?
I like the idea of the fifth move slot being reserved for Protect or the variations of it like King’s Shield and Spiky Shield.
It would be cool if protect or defend where another option separate to attack, like in many RPGs
Ah yes, let's buff stall. Making the fifth move slot protect just means pokemon that want to use protect just get a free move, and pokemon that don't want to use it get nothing. Consider giving all pokemon free access to swords dance. That isn't an equal buff to all pokemon. It buffs boost sweepers to an extreme extent, giving them an opportunity to have more coverage. Yes, protect can be useful to more pokemon than swords dance, but the ones who can use it well can use it *very* well
Wolfey: What if pokemon could learn 5 moves? Z-Moves: *Am I a joke to you?*
9/10 It would change competitive so much, sweepers get another coverage move, you don't have to chose between an offensive or defensive set as much with the move pool at least, makes walls so much more annoying because they can heal, toxic, set rocks, damage and some other utill etc etc etc
I think a Pokemon with an ability to have 5 moves would be interesting competitively, but every pokemon having 5 moves would be a nightmare.
I mean we do have that. And cramorants gulp missile is difficult to get the most out of and that’s not even going into how it sizes up against other Pokémon that exceed it
Cramorant was just designed badly. What even are those disappointing base stats?
This video and your video on pokemon having an extra type are the most interesting pokemon-related videos I've watched, like ever.
I love these videos. They’re so educational and Wolfey’s editing is so entertaining
I absolutely love this channel, entertaining intelligent narration, clean funny editing, my favourite games, couldn’t ask for more.
The animation makes these types of videos so fun to watch, also really good script writing. Great job!
Honestly the way you presented the information in this video was great! Makes me want to try competitive pokemon sometime in the future when I have more time on my hands
I think you approached this as well as one could. You gave a background as to why the topic is at hand, explained scenarios in which the topic affects and would affect current and future meta games, and delivered a concise, educated conclusion as to why the topic would not work from a balance standpoint. Well done. Well organized.
I think the tangents enhanced the experience as it allowed for a deeper level of understanding by letting the viewer see your thought process. All and all great video. Keep doing what you’re doing.
Such an interesting look into something that may seem so simple on the surface. Love your content Wolfey!
Another great vid Wolfe! Quality is great to see!
What a great video with excellent content and editing! Personally love these type more than the others
Before I watch any further in the video, I'm going to say that the 5th move concept would change the competitive scene in an unhealthy way. This is kinda more from a singles standpoint because that's just the format I'm most familiar with. The biggest issue I see is with stall. Having 5 moves opens up a lot more room for stall teams to consolidate their roles allowing for an even more terrifying wall. The terrible thing about that is regular attacking moves don't necessarily benefit from this change as much as status moves do. Yeah, you can add one more coverage move, but in reality most viable pokemon can already cover most of their bases with 4 moves. You could also set up more boosts, but that's kinda useless in the face of an unaware Quag or Clefable of which most stall teams carry at least one usually. But imagining a Clefable with Wish, Protect, Moonblast, Toxic, and Teleport sounds like a living nightmare to me. Let alone a whole team with that calibur of stalling capability. Z-moves were a lot different then that, because you could only use them once per battle, they required taking up a whole held item to do so which is pretty intense, and they had very limited capabilities in what they could do. You also had to meet very specific requirements for certain special Z-moves as well.
Great insight as always, love the analysis!
Nidoking : being able to have 5 moves ?... You know what ? Lets crush some walls
This was really awesome, and the segues gave a lot of good insight Makes me wonder what would change if they pulled it back to three moves, but it'll never happen
I think 5 moves breaks singles way more than doubles with having almost no way to switch into an attacker (especially if mixed), still 5 moves moves breaks VGC
Great video! I do want to say that the rapidly panning shot at 13:15 of all the pokemon made me need to look away from the screen, it might have been vertigo (and it certainly could have just been me) but whatever it was I found it a little bit unsettling. If it was moving slower or the images were more zoomed out, maybe it wouldn't have wigged me out. I was on the fence about saying anything, but you asked for feedback at the end of the video. You have a really interesting angle on pokemon that is entertaining and informative! Loving these videos
I think the tangents, while maybe distracting a little bit from the point you were making, was really interesting and happy that they were included.
I think there could be an ability that gives you a fifth move (and also one for two items!). That way, you can control that this is only on something with middleing stats to balance it out, and the loss of a good ability balances it further
QOTD: 10 This actually changes everything. Insane coverage, set ups, self sustain on sweepers
What a great video man, well done 👏🏼
Love the tangents, especially when you have examples to show like the tournaments.
Great vid, Wolfey. I would like to hear more on how a fifth move would benefit defensive pokemon like Dusclops and Tapu Fini less than their offensive counterparts. For example, wouldn't Dusclops' Pressure become more valuable with more PP to go through or Frisk when it's harder to get information? Or would pokemon like G-Weezing have an easier time if it could pack Destiny Bond to make the souped-up attackers think twice? Obviously there's some overlap with defense and support when both are associated with status moves to some degree, but I think the nuance is worth exploring.
Idea: a pokemon can have 5 moves but: -staying certain amount of turns in battle, for each turn a bar will fill, and once is full you can use your 5th move once, then the process repeats -The 5th move will always have 3 to 1 pp depending of the move -Only a selected group of moves can be selected to be the 5th move, in that way to prevent too op movesets
This is very creative and should be looked into
Might be cool for a spinoff honestly
Great video, and loved the tangents personally!
You videos are very high quality, keep it up!!
The way you use examples from your experiences helps me understand better. It's not boring at all (to me at least) dw! Thank you!
I would love to see it as part of an options menu. It wouldn’t be in competitive play but you could play around with it in the main story or against friends. Maybe keep it as part of a difficulty setting. Or maybe make it something you have to earn.
Swapping out learnset moves at a a Pokémon center, perhaps?
Makes sense to me. I’d love to be able to swap out moves it’s already learned.
You’re thumbnail was basically my set up for mewtwo when I was younger on Pokémon yellow era apart from psychic. So thunder, blizzard, fire blast and recover so OP :D
Groudon with DRAGON CLAW.....That's a twist not even M. Night Shyamalan would see coming.
I've played quite a bit of balanced and pure hackmons and let me tell you having to think about so much and never know what my enemy has in-store for me is downright maddening and makes it way less fun and I think a similar thing applies to giving Pokemon a fifth move
This video was super informative!
Sometimes I put one of your videos just to calm down and try to sleep. Love you Wolfey
So here’s a low maintenance version of this idea: make protect not a move. Rather, it would be an action that each Pokémon can take. It’s like having a 5 move, but with much less variance.
Kinda like how in the show they can tell their Mon to dodge as an action but it doesn't always work. But still a lot of pokèmon that run protect normally would just pick a different core move, essentially creating the same problem
well, landorus-t was specifically called out as being so much worse if it could have protect. i think that it’s definitely not as bad as allowing a full extra move, but it’s still able to cause a lot of problems
Maybe as a 'Brace' action? Like you give up your ability to attack, but reduce damage by say 75%. Maybe add in some moves that 'Break' via Strong Style like in Legends Arceus or moves like Hyper Beam could 'Break' but they are stalled for a turn or reduce speed, but give it to everyone like a Z move? IDK... I feel like this would make the Stall section of the game overpowered, but it would make some interesting plays here and there...
@@Hazel-xl8in and zacian too. We’ve all seen the same video. :) I just thought it was an interesting idea that wouldn’t function exactly the same from a mechanical perspective. It would affect choiced sets very differently than a fifth move, for instance. It would favour durability so games could be a little longer and it wouldn’t make it as much of a a guessing game as a fifth move (though I think that tournament play should reveal sets before the game). It also doesn’t have to function exactly like the protect move does. If we want it less luck base, it could be auto-fail if you used it last turn. If you want it more luck (I don’t) it could be just a 1 turn strong evasion boost (like the anime?).
QOTD: I’d say a 8/10 as it’s a core mechanic for all mons being changed
Z moves have left the chat
GMAX has left the chat, mega evolution has joined the chat
As someone who enjoys watching competitive Pokémon, but doesn’t already know everything when it comes to the games, I enjoy when you tie your points into specific gameplay scenarios like the dragon claw Groudon example. I’ll admit that my layman opinion when presented with the possibility of a fifth move was that a rising tide lifts all boats. After considering your analysis though I think that some boats are already too high. I think you did a good job explaining. Keep it up.
I would love to see 5 moves done for some kind of game mode in a pokemon game, where a pokemon can use 5 moves, but all moves either have to be normal or the pokemon's typing.
Thoughts on adding difficulty settings prior to starting the game? i.e. a hard mode where the AI will be able to have setup pokemon, more use of heals, etc.?
Thats a diff discussion, this really changes the game in a bad way, theres a reason whenever they tested those out, they make it 4 moves for the final game
I'm not sure if you've talked about it, but what would the ramifications be if Super Effective was reduced to 1.5x instead of 2x (and doubly effective being 3x, or maybe even 2x)? Would that nerf to offense be enough to justify the buff of adding a 5th move? (Personally 5th move would be awful imo, but maybe something really interesting as an ability!)
I love these kind of videos. Have you ever considered making a video about what would be the best 6 mon team or like top most used 10-15 pokemons in competetive perspective if you could choose ANY pokemon you like? I really would enjoy seeing your picks of the best pokemon ever competetively in like current scarlet/violet format. Like heck, these are the best pokemon of all 1010 available and everyone would use them if they were allowed
Limited moves is what brings the strategizing into the game. The fact that you have limited options is what keeps people guessing what your strategy is, even if they know what Poke'mon you have out.
Which is why Im so happy hidden power is gone
@@skullerclawerbandicoot7966 I think hidden power didn't help much unless something was 4x weak to it and weak to special. That's pretty balanced. Especially since it's usually used against overused mons that are themselves OP, like Hidden power ice on Garchomp or something.
I thought about how a fifth move could be added and I think I found a way that wouldn't shake things up too much. Basically, it would be limited to a very small set of moves. This move would have a separate button from the usual 4 and be called Utility Moves. Each Pokemon has a Utility moveslot by default and can choose from a list of moves much like move selection in PLA. Example of Utility Moves would include Protect, Substitute, Endure, Double Team, likely some new ones added. The idea being that these are techniques that every Pokemon inherently know how to do and don't need to be taught. I don't think all of the universal TMs would turn into Utility Moves as some of them like Round would almost never get used over the others. Competitively it makes predicting the fifth moveslot infinitely more doable as the options are so limited. It nerfs stall tactics that would require more than one Utility Move like Substitute and Protect. I imagine this would be a big buff to certain pokemon like the Charizard example given, but not nearly as much as if the fifth moveslot could be any move.
I like this idea i’d say certain pkmn would have access to certain moves exclusive to its species through level up or most likely the HMs for instance..or maybe make it the very first move it learns..or can use outside of battle like FLASH Or HEADBUTT Farfetch’d = Cut Defog is to Swanna Fly is to raqueza salamence Surf is to Lapras Dive is to Wailord Waterfall = Seaking Bounce is to gyarados Dig is to Digtrio.. Teleport,kinesis to Abra Ralts Milk drink is to Milktank Sweet scent is to Oddish and so on.. Also Pikachu volt tackle chansey soft-boiled Flash on Ampharos Blaze kick is to blaizken Aura Sphere is to lucario if a pkmn learns a HM move on it’s own id say because it’s tied to the pkmn fundamental it should have access to that move..
Personally like this, but as a balancer, the Utility Move can only be used 3 times per match, and only one Pokémon can use one per turn. Also, you can have a move that is normally a Utility Move in your Regular Moveset without the heavy limit in use. On top of that, certain Pokémon can use actual Attacking moves as their utility, while others CAN’T have a Utility Move. The stronger the mon, the lower it’s Utility Pool.
I think the tangents greatly enhanced the point you were making. It gave great examples!
I think a fifth move would be a really interesting ability
Lol, it would be, would it be an "once use thing" or it could use it as much as it wants?
Honestly think 5 moves would make Pokémon even harder game to play competitively. The only work around would be to have open team sheet in every possible situation but that would remove the information aspect of the game.
QOTD: 8, being able to add another coverage move for a sweeper or staller seems like a HUGE deal to me
Tangents were good. I really liked the approach to the video and how the stories relayed your point. Just make stuff you like and i think people will keep flocking to your channel :)
My idea was something similar to what Legends Arceus did, with 1 variantion per move instead of 2 but you can choose what said variations are. (possibly with some Pokémon having perks related to things they're supposed to be good at, like Hitmonchan getting to modify Elemental Punches with no drawbacks while other 'mons have to deal with some sort of drawback)
i think it would be interesting if the strong/agile moves would give a priority buff/nerf. not anything crazy but like increasing speed by like 20% or something when you use it
Imagine grimsnarl and whim with even more disruption potential! Always feeling like you have to cover for encore on whims, anything grim can do, Zacian that don’t have to give up another slot for quick attack or wild charge… I really think it would just make existing power creep worse.
Your style has gotten super informational and professional for these video types, not too dissimilar from Aaron Cybertron Zheng which is a cool adaptation. I do miss the long form unscripted unedited uploads sometimes though
How is only 9% of your audience subscribed? This content is too good to miss
I have considered this question in the past and my conclusion was to add a 5th move that can only be an HM move. This would make the single player not rely on HM slaves or the dumb ride Pokemon. It would give competitive Pokemon a limited amount of extra moves to consider. Things like fly or dive could be used defensively as a semi protect and force the other player to consider what slot they are attacking into. Moves like waterfall could be used to trap a Pokemon but do little damage. I think the HMs would need to be tweaked to make them not super powerful/weak. Like Cut being a guarantee crit, or Fly/Dive having +1 priority(2nd turn as well) with lower damage to work as a semi protect. I did not consider this with Max moves in mind but you could make it so HM moves can't be maxed. Or you could just make it so competitive still restricts them to 4 moves.
Just the thought of facing a Zacian or Groudon with protect + 4 coverage moves makes me shudder. You’re right Wolfey, 5 moves is a bad idea competitively
Super interested in how agile/strong style moves in Arceus would work in a competitive style of play, it was honestly my first though when I bought the game
I have been working on a game concept, and I have been working on a mechanic like this. Where you have a resonator you can attach to a Pokemon, it is type specific, and somehow has a move attached, but it makes the Pokemon now gain the extra type, and get a 5th move of that type descided by the respnator
I'm not far into the video but imagine a Snorlax with Hyper Beam, Rest, Sleep Talk, recover, and Snore. How toxic would that be?