ATP vs WTA Forehand Technique - Why Women & Men Have Different Form
2019 ж. 22 Қаз.
136 939 Рет қаралды
There is a lot of misinformation on this subject. This video will help you to understand why men, women, and children gravitate to specific techniques. Although the kinetic chain is different I do not believe that one technique is better than the other. Allow players to use the technique that is right for that and make that specific technique fundamentally sound.
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Has to be the most noteworthy video to date. All these WTA/ATP videos I think are doing more harm than good to the general tennis community. Especially since most online coaches are men, I feel there might be a bias in the promotion of the ATP style. The key, like you said, is working with people's NATURAL technique as they develop. I adopted the ATP style through college because of this information and, unironically, my FH is my stroke that's the most inconsistent that I struggle with. On a good day it's GOOD. On a bad day, I'm thinking about every which part (a no-no in match-play). Just because most women do it one way, doesn't mean it's "bad."
Pinned comment. Boom!
@@TomAllsopp Definitely been sharing your video around bc I think it's important. It's the only prominent video on the topic that's objectively well thought-out. If I had seen this in college, my FH likely would have given me less of a headache then. 😣
Great comment
great comment 👌
Well said Naomi! From a male perspective..I've been doing the ATP forehand on a rec level for 15 years. I just recently switched to a WTA style forehand and I find it has more power and feels more loose and free and I am a pretty strong guy with broad shoulders. Ive read artciles and watched videos suggesting the WTA forehand is inferior which is not true. Looks at Robin Soderling, Fernando Gonzoles , Steffi Graf and serena williams. Some of the best forehands of all time and they have WTA style
Thank goodness. After watching this I feel like I never have to watch another ATP vs WTA Forehand video again.
Haha that would probably be a wise move!
Great stuff once again. I have seen so many criticisms of "the WTA forehand" online, almost always from guys whose forehands are wayyyy worse than Osaka's or Williams'. I really like this idea that you have to use the stroke that works with what fits your body's strengths and limitations.
Great comment. Thanks!
Ain’t that the truth.
Wow, where was this video 10 years ago, when I was struggling to figure this out. Great analysis! It's too bad there are so many coaches out there teaching bad, outdated and straight up false advice.
“Cheeky twist of the wrist.” This says it all. Why fight against your body when you can work with it?
I reckon I need the WTA forehand
WTA > ATP forehand ... for me!
how come?
Great video thanks - as a man who is built more like a woman (no joke), I have tried both styles. For me if I had started from the beginning with the atp style, maybe I could have mastered it by now, but I grew up with jimmy connors/ chris evert/ kimiko date straight back straight through, so both wta and atp feel foreign to me. Del Potro, Gonzalez, Graf - all great forehands were all so different, so I think u gotta go with what feels most natural and concentrate on great contact and timing. The most beautifully swung atp forehand is not gonna help you if you mis hit all the time lol
Great comment. Haha.
Hope you find this useful. Please like, comment and subscribe. Thanks to Svetoslav Elenkov for his knowledge and involvement in this project. A link to his book "Elite Tennis" is in the description.
Thanks, Tom. I also write tennis articles on Quora under Slavy Elenkov for those interested.
Thanks, I've always wondered why females are teaching more WTA style than ATP style....I'm a woman and I have an ATP style
Spot on lots of coaches are teaching forehands without understanding the physical capabilities of players. I see a lot of juniors in south Florida and they all want to tap the dog and end up looking robotic and forced.
Thanks for the comment. Agree!
This was great! Helpful. Thanks.
This is a professional video.. really impressive. Very well done...
Tom - your insight and analytical skills are the best on the web .. by far. I always get something out of your videos. At some point I'm going to get up to Northern Cal and touch base with you for a lesson (Orange County currently) because your common sense/ practical approach to the game is second to none. I grew up playing tennis in the 70's and 80s with wood rackets and a continental FH so my biggest issue on the FH has been to transition to an eastern grip and to using a more fluid side arm throwing motion to generate pace and topspin. It's been a struggle at times but I'm getting there. I really loved your video on that subject btw. As to the WTA vs ATP FH - I'll just add my 2 cents and argue that guys are more apt to evolve into the more abbreviated ATP FH because - as you note - the ATP FH is really a side arm throwing motion and more guys have a natural throwing motion - perhaps because they play baseball or football or other 'throwing sports' and therefore naturally develop an overhand, sidearm and 3/4s throwing motion and therefore they tend to gravitate to it when executing the FH. It's the same reason why more guys have natural serve motions IMO. But yeah - some women can throw and serve like a guy .. and there might be some anatomical reasons why it's easier for guys to develop a throwing motion .. but if you can do it - it's also (at least IMO) a more efficient way to generate power/ racket head speed because it's a shorter more compact swing (disregarding the follow-thru and focusing only on the take back thru contact point). In some ways it's the same as the difference between the old school FH and the more modern ATP FH - as the power/ racket head speed can be generated in a shorter window where less can go wrong between the 'wind-up' and contact point. Again the follow-thru is irrelevant as its just deceleration of the racket after contact.
I agree with all of that. I definitely wasn't making any opposing arguments. I look forward to seeing you one day. Thanks for the comment. Stay in touch!
@@TomAllsopp Fun fact Tom - I grew up playing tennis in Ohio and one of the guys I played against in High School was Rick Macci - who was self taught and had really funky strokes as a HS player. He was a decent player because he was a good athlete (good HS B-ball player), but I would never have guessed that he'd go on to become a teaching pro and supposed 'stroke guru' given his very unorthodox strokes as a HS player. To tell u the truth, I'm not a fan of his teaching methods based on what I've seen on youtube as he seems intent on breaking down every stroke into all these little segments and doing everything in slow motion - which to me isn't realistic or natural and doesn't impart muscle memory or repeatable flow. In fact, in the youtube videos of Macci's lessons that I've actually seen - his players seem to regress over the course of the lesson because he keeps focusing on all these little segments and 'pat the dog' positions and racket angles etc. instead of getting the kids to think holistically about the strokes and simple 'wind up and unwind' or 'coil and uncoil' like you do naturally when u throw a ball or a frisbee (re the 1 handed BH). I've always had a good 1 handed BH because I somehow naturally gravitated to a coil/ uncoil frisbee throw BH stroke that just always worked for me and allowed me to swing hard and impart spin - top or slice whereas my old-school FH was much more mechanical and dependant on getting my timing and footwork and pendulum swing sychronized with my opponents shots and I often struggled with generating lots of top and generating my own power on slow or high balls - something that's always been lots easier to do with my BH and the last couple of years with my more modern FH stroke. What I so appreciate in your video tips is how you take what someone is doing and you take a holistic look/ approach and suggest little adjustments that have a big impact/ effect. Anyways - keep up the great work!
@@jbc-3975 Macci is robbing people, he cannot play tennis himself and teach idiotic ideas.. I always laugh when some people are stupid enough to pay him 300dollars/hour! :D Watch this: kzhead.info/sun/ec-vereBempjeJE/bejne.html
Great video, cleared a lot of my doubts!
Thank you for a great explanation! It really filled a few gaps in my understanding. I actually spent some time transforming my sons FH from WTA to ATP style and it worked, but damn it was hard. The high elbow came more naturally to him at 13Y.O., but that closed stance gave me a lot of gray hair
Great video! Thank you!!! I have a different story about fighting one’s body. I’ve been playing tennis for almost 10 years now. And not able to trust my forehand whereas it never even occurred to me to look up any instructional videos for the two handed backhand. I just know and feel how to hit it or how to aim it. And then I stumbled across some highlights of Su-Wei Hsieh. It took one week of adjustment and getting used to it after 10 years of struggle. I found it! It feels so good to just hit the heck out of that ball (with the two hands on the racquet :-) after years of tentative pushing 🙂
Marina O'Byrne congratulations on finding a way to make it work. I’m on the same journey with my golf game haha
@TomAllsopp ..golf swing hard??..come on...all u need to do have perfect stance..perfect hip shift/turn..perfect tempo..perfect clubface angle..maintaing spine angle....perfect release....perfect timing of pronation..etc..etc..and then after finding perfect mechanics on right arm swing--- u find out u cant do any of it because of blocking of left shoulder..left arm/elbow ..incorrect spacing..body stalling..early extension...etc..other than that the golf swing is easy...haa..i say stay with tennis or convert to pickleball where it only takes about a month or 2(for a good tennis player) to be a professional or be very very good..not to mention its alot of fun and you meet tons of people(with apologies to serious tennis players)..
one of the best breakdowns of this topic. nice.
Love your analysis. Really want to send video to your site for analysis. Not sure what are the best angles for video when I'm training vs match play.. would love your imput
Thanks. With match play it’s nice to see from behind but it’s sometimes difficult. Just send a video from any angle and i’ll be able to do something with it.
love your channel. your explanation is much better than most coaches! keep doing the excellent work
That’s was one of THE BEST video I’ve watched Please don’t stop making video like this one I really enjoyed it 🎾🙏🤙👍🏻🍻
Thanks. Means a lot!
Of all the forehands I’ve looked at, mine comes closest to resembling Osaka’s ... I bend low to the ground for a lower center of gravity and my left arm shoots out to the left instead of swinging to the right with the racquet arm and I use my hips and upper body to generate power. My grip is eastern not western or semi-western. I can generate a very “flat” ball as well as topspin (helicopter) with the eastern grip. My left arm is crucial with my style of hitting. It shoots out first (front to left) before my racquet arm. I use the left arm to determine when to bring the right racquet arm to the side.
I find osaka's forehand the most intriguing too, I also use a similar style with a bent arm FH, which hurts less the shoulder after a game at least for me.
I think Osaka's forehand is great!
Thank you soooooo much!!
Great video. I have an ATP forehand and a WTA backhand😅
Thanks for this video! Would it be accurate to say that another major difference is the racquet flip? The ATP forehand has a racquet flip where the racquet face rotates from facing the ground to being perpendicular to the ground. Meanwhile in the WTA forehand the face is always perpendicular besides the racquet rotating backwards on the takeback.
Nice video, well done. I unknowingly taught my daughter the Federer type of forehand swing. It was the one I hit with so I naturally just taught her that way too. Then I started to notice so many girls at tennis academies with that drastically different WTA style behind the back swing, and I realized the whole ATP verse WTA style was a thing. I guess my daughter never had a choice because I didn't know any better :-) I also taught her Novaks type of backhand which seems to be similar to WTA backhand, so now at 14 she will just have to go with what she was taught and see how it plays out. My observation is that she hits heavier balls with more spin than most of her opponents at this age, and still good pace. Shes a little less consistent with that tighter and quicker swing that requires near perfect wrist lag timing, and she hits a few more shanks than flat WTA hitters with the bigger wrist lag and low to high swing paths. I'm hopeful her timing will continue to refine in a couple years. It will be interesting to see. Thanks again for helping explain the more subtle differences there.
Hopefully she develops strong shoulders to continue with the ATP style.... it requires strong core/shoulders///otherwise injuries are coming up
So, you are saying you taught your daughter how to hit a forehand like federer and a backhand like Djokovic. Maybe you should just retire and let her shower your with her prize winnings.
Keep on encouraging her to use a lot of spins and also, would be wise to develop a great slice backhand. The womens game these days are too obssesed with ending the point ASAP. They hit hard flat strokes, and that creates less consistensy. The womens game also rarely have to deal with opponents who uses a lot of spins and slices. Developing those 2 can really make her a tricky opponent to play.
I think you should try both and see what works for you. Robin Soderling has a WTA style forehand - massive power!
Interesting! Slavy is my favorite!
I don't really need a big swing for generating the 80% power. Shorter backswing helps me get into the slot position faster. The key though is understanding the timing of the step is different and needs to be more precise. If not, you will end up hitting with arm and not legs. This will then lead to elbow injuries. It is best not to push players to pursue a shorter backswing if they are not quickly adapting to a different rhythm.
Thanks for this excellent video!
Thanks for this video Tom, very interesting. Do you think keeping the backswing to the hitting side of the body helps with timing the ball?
No I don't really. If it gets too big around the back that could hurt timing but so could a lot of swings. I think there can be less moving parts with the WTA forehand so I don't see why it would be a problem.
Yes it does!
nikoncz how so?
@@TomAllsopp Because you can peripherally see your racquet during whole swing. (therefore you can easily judge the distance between incoming ball and your racquet head) It doesnt dissapear somewhere far behind your ass. And to be able to see in my opinion is quite important in tennis.
nikoncz haha really? Never heard that reason before.
Short answer please witch forehand is good sir because my daughter is 9 year old she playe with atp forehand is good or not please sir tell me
I also noticed that young Agassi and young Djokovic also hit old school forehands and switched to modern when teenagers. Same as Shapovalov
Yes, flimsy boys who start tennis to early can't get power from shoulders and develope WTA. This is a big PITA later as they see other boys hit BIG mans forehands and they stuck with WTA
Great video
But its true! Woman are biologically build differently than biological men
This is transphobic. We’re all the same and interchangeable .
@@fadnerpierre4431😂
I think Flipkens uses an ATP-style forehand. She also slices almost all of her backhands.
Excellent! Doing a great job, coach! Keep up the good work! Need some clarification on DRIVE volley if you have time
Not though about this topic. I’ll see what I can do
in the backswing, most of app players' racket is facing down, what is your thought about this? is it better than facing vertically?
It's just natural for most players. And its better for them.
Thank you guys!
cheers
What a great video !
I knew it. I've been on several arguments on here against men and women who insist thst the ATP tour forehand is better. The WTA forehand evolved because that swing maximized the amount power you can impart to a ball and in the WtA level , power is what's going to win you matches. The same for recreational players. That's why wta forehand is better in the amateur levels. The atp forehand maximized your ability to control the ball. It won't give you power. It will only work if you're strong like Henin, stosur. And even then it's got its limitations.
I always love your videos! To me, it 's the coaching problems as the players in other rackets sports are using the same techniques as the men doing. Why not tennis?
I’m not an expert in other racquet sports. That being said, the throwing differences in sports like baseball/softball are apparent even to a regular person like me.
It’s just physics. In general a player needs more power to end points quicker if their speed (court coverage) is below average or less than their opponents. Pound for pound the WTA forehand produces more flat ball speed through the air per unit of body weight than an ATP forehand. The ATP forehand is designed to handle incoming speed more effectively than the WTA forehand does. The ATP forehand generates more overall ball power than the WTA does when spin rate is factored in. It all makes sense since guys over the past few decades have all increase the Athleticism and court coverage they naturally have adopted a swing that complements their game style. If a coach has a fast player I recommend an ATP forehand since this player can get and return more balls. If the player is slower or less mobile they need max flat power to end points quickly so they should stick with a WTA forehand. For example John Isner should have gone with a WTA style forehand. Simona Halep would have won more with an ATP style forehand. Nick Kyrgios should have went with a Pirates of the Caribbean forehand because he is super salty! Lol
Just a difference in semantics but I think of a swing where the racquet rotates back in a more vertical plane such as Del Potro’s as being a WTA forehand even if it doesn’t go behind the back. I also think that striking the ball with a bent elbow or with the elbow extended makes a difference. For example the Federer or Nadal backswing doesn’t work as well for a player who strikes the ball with a bent elbow. Most players strike the ball with a bent elbow yet Federer is the most used example of how to take the racquet back. If you get your hand as low as he or Nadal do and strike the ball with a bent elbow you are going to be coming up to the ball on a pretty steep path.
MikeT T It’s absolutely not semantics. Men and women have different body types that govern the way they use their body to hit balls. Breaking the plane doesn’t mean it’s a WTA style, but more women break the plane because of how they use their bodies.
Ok, but the part of the clip where the young girl is swinging next to the fence I’d call a WTA forehand because her racquet is rotating in a plane where rotating her body is going to do little or nothing to add to the forearm supination in a way that helps increase pronation into contact.
Really useful
Outstanding video
Thank you!
Theres also some footage of Thiem with the same thing kzhead.info/sun/rZumqMuqmKJrpWw/bejne.html i've always asked myself if there is some point in live where the trainer says "now is the time to swing on the other side of the body". When i started playing tennis i had more of an WTA forehand (im a male) and when i changed my club and within this my coach he criticized me for having this old school forehand and worked on some wristaction wich until today i dont really understand. After two years of working i started framing the ball and became inconsistent which actually was my strength before. I still remember the day where i noticed that i have an issue about that. But besides that i have developed some more spin and pace in my shots so i really dont know where the problem is. Is it about the changes i made or do i have to invest just more time in this new style. In this video you talked more about women developing an ATP forehand...but what do you think about men actually having a WTA style like for example Jeremy Chardy?
great
Insingtful! Are there any ATP players with forehands that are more WTA-like?
Del Potro
There are some male players that swing around their back a bit. but the tend to use their shoulders a lot more.
@@TomAllsopp Who for example?
@@ArthurVerhulst I show two in the video. Gonzales. Still doesn’t make it WTA though
@@TomAllsopp Now that I come to think of it: it seems to me that Davidovich Fokina has a WTA-like FH. Agree?
ATP forehand is better for fast balls and more spin if you use wrist lag.
This is very interesting. My question is, how did Gonzalez develop that forehand then?
Why wouldn’t he? It’s a pretty no nonsense swing.
@@TomAllsopp Agreed! I was just wondering if generally men would have what it's called an ATP swing, why did he develop his with more takeback than the rest of his contemporaries?
@@Dan1elAndrade I think it is ATP, a female would swing like that. He just “breaks the plane”
@@TomAllsopp I see, thanks!
Enjoyable video, thanks, good stuff. I saw Henin play many times in both England and Europe on grass, clay and indoor hardcourt. I often found that Henin was a little inconsistent on the forehand side and sometimes stuggled to hit with pace on that side. I remember watching her play Bremond in the Wimbledon quarterfinal from close to the court, Henin often looked like she was "fighting" the ball off the forehand side, off balance. She could just have been having an off day or her opponent was causing her problems. However, as we know Henin was a slight figure so to hit an ATP style forehand conistently would have been testing for her, an interesting observation by you guys.
I agree, the small wristy swing can be more difficult to generate pace in a smooth and effortless way. Not wrong, but something to consider when working with players.
Slav Elenkov Nothing alike. She does everything in the book to make her shot seem that way. She sweeps the elbow low then straightens the arm, finishes the pronation with her wrist and not shoulder, and to top it off her shoulder pops out of her socket to make it look like an atp forehand. no shoulder pronation, no kyrgios, no atp. if it’s replicable and works for her though, more power to her 👊
well done
Shoulder strength is for pushing, but forehand is a snap action (not a throwing action either as claimed) , and doesn't require much shoulder strenghth.
Nah
@@TomAllsopp Thanks for your analysis, I have been practicing with shoulder throwing action (just hold the racquet high and loose) in the past a few months, and get much better forehand. Sorry for my initial comment, that's wrong like you pointed out. Many thanks again for putting up such insightful videos on youtube!
Good analysis
thanks!
I think you might be wrong here. About Nick forehand has 90%+ hip involvement. He takes the racket elbow up because that allows the hip to coil back freely; otherwise, it's hard to coil the full hip length (others did that too Sampras and many others). After the full hip coil, He will let the racket swing and hit the ball. (like a pendulum) ( he is not using shoulder, the hip arrange the bigger muscles to snap and generate speed the shoulder and hands just going for a along)
he's not using a pendulum motion. This is a violent throwing motion. Kinetic chain through the hips and throwing the arm, not attaching the arm to the hip and rotating like WTA
@@TomAllsopp Try it yourself. You take the racket as him (elbow up), then coil the hip fully like him, then rotate the hip back fully to the front and up. You will see the racket follow like a pendulum and hit the ball from low to high to generate spin( there is no wrist movement) (everyone does that Roger, Nadal, Delpo, and many more). It's hard to explain, but if you do it yourself, you will understand the racket will swing like a pendulum.
on the back swing racket need to loose like you have the pendulum ball up (thats why they keep the racket on the side loose and up).. then hip just carry the racket and speed up
sutha kathir the hips lead the arm. Like skimming a stone or throwing a ball side-arm
sutha kathir fake news
Simple reason why atp version is better is a top spin. You can easily and safe hit deep balls and make opponents step back. With wta technic this is no answer to heavy and high ball. 2nd reason as a “weekend” player you have to face a lot of pushers. Pushers can’t push high spin ball very good at same time they will easily run and push fast balls. ATP forehand is much better ... if you have time to learn it.
You talk about how the WTA forehand is more than sufficient for juniors and women, but is it good to hang on to if you're a physically strong male adult?
Never really thought about it. So Agassi's backswing was quite big for an ATP player?
I think Agassi’s swing was about as compact as it gets
@TomAllsopp Really? Looked like a big C to me, from his "Attack" VHS made with Bollettieri. Did he maybe change to a compact swing later in his career?
@@khmak9387 that swing was a little bigger. But he had a pretty short runway into the ball on most shots
my sister uses the atp forehand the wta was not for her idk why
Hello Tom, I agree with you that most women dont have upper body strength to pull up atp style forehand and its better for them to use wta style one.. But you also said that atp style is not better than wta one.. I strongly disagree let me explain why. You said that men have stronger shoulders (which is true) but you forgot to mention that they also have much stronger forearm that allows them to use wrist lag and they spin the ball much more. I think last French Open the tv graphic measured the forehand speed of Ostapenko and Murray forehand.. They were almost the same speed I think around 140kmh but Andys forehand had much more spin (rpm rotation per minute) and completely different trajectory.. So conclusion WTA forehand allows women hit almost the same hard as men, but because they dont use wrist lag (forearm and shoulder that much) their forehand is flat and they do much more unforced errors because of that (more nets and outs), men on the other hand play with more spin, higher trajectory over the net and the ball falls down much quicker and stays inside the court. It also jumps much more aggressively because of spin.. So their forehand is more accurate and they do less unforced errors.. So if there is a woman who can play atp style forehand it is definitely an advantage.. The good example of that is Justin Henin, she was able to beat both Williams sisters regularly even though she was much smaller player than them. Kind regards from Petr (tennis coach from Czech republic).
I didn’t say the ATP is not better. I actually said it was better and created more racket speed, but not better for everyone. And not if it isn’t natural and therefor is developed at the cost of developing other skills through the struggle. I said Henin’s forehand was great but I highlighted that it may be difficult for some players as it’s a small swing to generate power. Did you watch with the sound off?
@@TomAllsopp Ahh I see you are one of those defensive coaches who are always right and they dont like critique.. I listened very carefully with sound ON.. At 8:44 you said there is lot of coaches who believe keeping racquet to the right side is better.. IT IS actually better and I explained why.. You are also asking from where the little girl will generate power? The answer is from wrist lag, WTA forehand doesnt allow you to use your wrist at all.. BTW Serenas forehand sux, she just muscle the ball with hardly any spin.. Have a good day..
@@nikoncz7548 How many slams would Serena have won if you had taught her your forehand? It's only better if you can comfortably do it. I understand the mechanics and why they are better, as I said in the video. I am just defending my position by pointing out where you went wrong in understanding my message.
@@TomAllsopp I have been teaching kids over 20 years and I understand the concept why little girls develop forehand like that.. They simply dont have the upper body strength. We can agree on that.. Just saying that some of them can learn proper technique when they get older and stronger, same as Denis did.. Thats all... So saying that wta technique is better for some players is not true.. It is not better just easier to execute.. And that is a big difference.. Anyways thx for your video..
nikoncz it is better for some players. Unless you’re saying you could have taught Serena a more effective forehand...?
Superb
I'm really glad I found this video. Thank you. My daughter is a 10 year old rising junior tennis player IG @myla.abraham. Someone suggested she should shorten her back swing and learn the ATP forehand. She has a very solid wta forehand for a 10 yr old right now. I wasn't sure if we were missing out on learning the ATP forehand. Do you think we should introduce the atp technique to her? How will we know if it is a good fit for her physiologically?
Thanks. It won’t be a good fit for her because she is a female and built differently to a male.
David Abraham I just saw a video of her. That would be a really difficult change for her to make, and without any good reason for it.
TPA tennis thank you for your response
How the heck does this video get a down vote? Sheesh!
Tough crowd haha
Top video
Thank you. Much appreciated.
Would be good to talk about contact point.
wasn't really important for this debate
Great example of the differences. Well done. Oh the woman at the end has a western grip, that’s why her elbow drops so low.
Which woman has a western grip?
The woman at 8 min... at least that what I see on my phone.
@@RamsesReturns I don't think its full western, it just looks more extreme because of the wrist twist. Definitely sets the elbow lower, but women's elbows are set lower anyway
Rybarikova also has an atp-style forehand.
"style" maybe
I am not trolling. I do not think the ATP forehand requires shoulder strength. The arm is not thrown at the ball that is the rebound from the lag. The lag is just a relaxed wrist / forearm that allows the racquet face and some of the handle to keep going back while the hand is rotated forward initiated by the hips, then the rest of the racquet rebounds forward. It is kind of like a whip. No, it is exactly like a whip. Free extra racquet speed without extra energy expended. Now in my experience, it is a very difficult swing to learn and then play with. It takes precise timing. Kids will work on this too much and forget about the backhand, volleys, serve, etc, Tennis academy kids - yes learn it. High school kids - nah, do Agassi's forehand, that worked pretty well also. But a great video you can find on youtube with a young Federer going against an aging Agassi is how much harder Federer hit the ball than Andre (winners while falling back way behind the baseline) and Andre could bench press a house at the time. Technique. Now there is a problem with the WTA forehand. The wrist is laid back so they can make contract way out in front, and does not roll into the ball (does automatically for ATP lag) and intentionally with Agassi style. The WTA wrist has to react to the impact while the ATP wrist is proactive - like a Karate student punching a wood block, not holding his fist out there and a teacher moves the wood block against his fist. Your wrist will fare better when it is proactive at impact, not reactive.
Why do women have different forehands to men?
@@TomAllsopp I really do not know. I have a lot of theories. For one, 99 percent of the teachers out there do not know how to do the ATP forehand. If a kid learns the ATP forehand then he will get crap from high school coaches and any other tennis teachers he encounters who do not know of it. I had several students stop lagging because of this and go back to their old forehands. So a better question is - why do the USA men suck at tennis so bad? I went through battles years ago with classic tennis teachers when I was teaching kids to hit in semi open and open stances and rotate their hips. I was also not shy about having them use their wrists. My kids creamed the classic players in my area because the advantages of the more modern strokes compared to the classic were substantial. I am not sure lagging is substantially better than not lagging. When more people see the advantages of the Federer forehand and more know how to teach it then I think more women will also learn it. When I learned it, a former student's new teacher who played Big 10 D1 tennis suggested that I get a 30 inch 1/2 inch wood dowel and practice lagging with that to get the feel. It worked. A relaxed wrist is a very high level skill. My only concern is young kids - the wrist lays back more then they can do it without the momentum of the lag and I wonder if that is healthy.
The elbow goes from out to in to out the trick is the inside out swing path
Great points. You’ve definitely convinced me I’m wrong
@@TomAllsopp the elbow must be in the slot just like golf baseball etc osaka is just bad there is something about the forehand wta can serve bhs fine but they cant hit fhs
Tennis Replay still not clear on your argument but yes women’s forehands are not as good as men’s. Osaka’s forehand is not the best way to hit a forehand. 🤷♂️
@@TomAllsopp lol its ok u can look up the slot its the key to power nicks elbow is high so he can drop it down same position as henin's low elbow
Tennis Replay I’m not sure what’s funny.... I understand the slot. But they don’t do it the same.
Halep has a beautiful forehand technique but her backhand is undeniably the best in the WTA.
Is it ATP style?
the longer the backswing (wta) the slower the racquet head speed and less time you have to react to fast balls.
Shorter swings don’t necessarily mean more racket speed. Could be quite the opposite.
@@TomAllsopp wta have longer backswings and they hit much flatter and less racquet head speed. Del Porto has huge backswing and tends to hit the ball out. Not enough racquet head speed to dip the ball in. Rafa has shorter backswing with huge racquet head speed to dip the ball in with spin. Are you saying the women have more racquet head speed than the men?
oot no
Del Potro enters the chat
It's interesting that you highlighted Darya Kasatkina as atypical of the WTA forehand. The first time I saw her play my first reaction was that she hit her forehand like a guy. That being said, I also find the distinction between WTA and ATP forehands too harsh, and choose to view them as existing on a spectrum.
I see it as a spectrum with women playing like women on one end, and women pretending to play like men on the other.
@@TomAllsopp I'm not sure how to take that comment. "Women playing like women" ???? The women playing today would have destroyed men back in the 70s and before. Which WTA players are "pretending to play like men"? What does that even mean? The only difference I can see in terms of "game" is the average speed/spin of the ball.
Nice video! I always thought that all the videos claiming ATP Fh always being superior were crap and that the women playing the game really know what's best for them. Look at Simona hitting a 1H BH just for fun; and she has a great 2H Bh (twitter.com/simona_halep/status/1121384111925542914) . You can really tell she's a great athlete, she could probably hit an ATP style FH (she probably did try it) but it's not to her advantage. My forehand (male being) is something of a mix between ATP & WTA FH. I don't go with the racquet all the way back as the girls. But as Simona (or Rafa), I do press with the racquet against my wrist, take it to the right of my body, don't tap the dog all the way (the racquet is not face down) and start to swing with a somewhat loose wrist when the racquet head is still a bit up(I just rotate and swing). I tried to emulate the ATP style, but I think it's a more demanding shot which you have to really train it to get it to work right. My ATP style FH had lots and lots of spin, was loopy, (PureDrive ....), had reasonably consistency and pace but I felt I could not really place the ball where I wanted and could not hit good angles. The current Fh is more direct at the ball, has better pace, good spin and I really can hit better angles.
ATP Canada (RDS fr & TSN en) WTA Canada (TVA Sports fr & Sportsnet en)
Great video. I'm a man and now in my late 40s. I have gone through tennis transitions from the 1970s flat hitting with a wooden racquet (60 inch!) to a 'Big C' backswing with an oversize graphite racquet in the 1990s to an attempt to get the ATP FH in the last 5 years with a Babolat. However, with arm and shoulder injuries in the last 5 years i've lost some strength and flexibility and find the ATP FH is harder to achieve, and less powerful for me, than one where i swing more around my back in a bigger arc. Does that mean - because i'm male - that's wrong? I'm no weakling - just getting on a bit now. So maybe something a little more WTA can suit some males too?
No it doesn’t. I showed some great male players swinging around their back. Do what’s comfortable. Find a way to make it work.
Gonzales has THE best male forehand in history and he had some “wta” characteristics in his forehand. Do what works best for you, as Tom said. 👍
TPA tennis interesting. I found this video because a coach today said my grip favored a WTA style backswing. So we worked a lot on it. I do not have a “what works best for me” attitude. I want to know what works best and adapt to it. What is the better stroke style? If it gives the women power, wouldnt it give a man even more power? What reason is there to go with the ATP swing?
@@S0RELOSER What would work for you is changing your attitude. You have to use "what works for you." Sharks and lions don't use the same hunting technique and they are both successful. Granted, the differences between men and women aren't as big, but there are still differences. You could develop a hybrid style forehand "if it works for you." The hybrid forehand worked wonders for Fernando Gonzalez. Why can't it work for you? In my opinion, he has the best forehand in history, so just copy that if you aren't satisfied with my answer. kzhead.info/sun/gaWElaagqJyebI0/bejne.html
Slav Elenkov my attitude has worked for every sport Ive done successfully. I have no ego about forcing my own style. I want to learn the fundamentals. This should be a science. Every other sport does not leave so much room for personal taste. It’s odd that a “best way” hasnt been figured out yet. I dont mind learning a WTA FH if it is superior.
Justine henin had an atp forehand
Not quite. Similar
@@TomAllsopp it definitely wasn't WTA
Imitating Kyrgios is how you get tennis elbow
Even he's got it
Another Great male forehand that would be considered “wta” style is Robin Soderling.
Yes. Similar!
I think taking the racquet behind your back can lead to hitting late if the opponent has some serious power, but at the recreational level the WTA racquet takeback is nothing to be ashamed of. Timing, direction control, depth control and variety in spin are much more important than the takeback.
So the WTA forehand is a recreational one? You can still do small swings WTA style. But you’d still smash that post.
@@TomAllsopp The problem with this video analysis is that instructors are supposed to help instill good sound technical advice with simple technical progression. Swinging around the body in my 50 years of instructing tennis has never amounted to any technical or practical improvement. I have had more success teaching girls the ATP forehand than the WTA forehand. But that is just my humble professional opinion. Good video though. I believe the technical progression has more to do with what kind of attacking or baseline player the player wants to be. Maybe.
😉👏👏👏👏💙live tennis🎾🎾🎾🎾
The push for atp forehand is coming from dudes like macci who are so full of gimmicks and just generally promoting themselves and not necessarily what is best for the player
Can’t disagree with that. And every video on Instagram is what I’d call a 1 minute intervention and not how to develop a good tennis player.
i wish you were my coach 12 years ago lol
haha thanks
Well you keep saying that "You shouldn't try to force replicating this ATP forehand if it's not something that comes naturally to you" But serving with a forehand grip comes naturally to everybody and everyone should be forced to go to a hammer grip because it is superior.
I don't believe in forcing that grip either. It should evolve naturally through necessity. But Serena can hit better with her forehand. The ATP forehand is not better for Serena, but the continental grip is.
@@TomAllsoppSerena not strong enough to hit ATP? Her shoulders too small?😅 Can't have it both ways coach.
She’s relatively stronger in the hips. There’s a reason she gravitated to that swing and no guys did.
I do have to point out a glaring flaw with this video. You claim that there isn't a perfect technique for everyone to imitate. Ironic, because while you were saying that, the man who is perfect to imitate both technique and personality wise was on screen(wearing a Mavs jersey which is rather fitting). Other than that rookie mistake this is quite the video ole chap! Looking forward to seeing more from you and Slavy.
touche
You seem like the kinda fruitcake that would try and play like Kyrgios
@TPA tennis how would you categorise Warinka's forehand kzhead.info/sun/kseomM6aqKesqps/bejne.html ? Is it ATP or WTA? He does not have his elbow sticking out but he does not wrap his racket around his body either. (I really like his fh: technique looks flawless and simple).
ATP
The best forehand Roger Federer and Dominic Thiem
Serena, Naomi, Sharapova, Clijsters, Hingis, and countless WTA GS winners all have a WTA forehand.
Exactly
2:02 4:00 4:58
When a tiny girl has a better forehand stroke than my grown ass...
most woman crowd the ball, therefore elbow has to bend
Why do they crowd the ball?
Horses for courses init
Exactly!
what the heck does that mean?
Slav Elenkov different horses are better on specific courses. Gotta have the right horse for the right course. Nomsayin?
@@TomAllsopp understood.
Gonzo is my hero.
Love his forehand!! Backhand was a bit off haha
men r better at literally anthing
Halep has a beautiful forehand technique but her backhand is undeniably the best in the WTA.