Experts explain why Thames Water should be nationalised | LBC analysis
As the boss of Thames Water says bills need to rise by 40% to pay for improvements, Matthew Wright speaks to experts to discuss if nationalisation is the answer.
Thames Water is currently in a race to find extra funds due to investors declining to give the company more money unless bills rise.
"That is the price customers have to pay for the investment in our infrastructure that's needed," boss Chris Weston admitted.
Matthew hears from Ross Clark, a columnist at The Spectator, who wrote the piece: 'Thames Water proves privatisation has failed', as well as Professor Ewan McGaughey, a professor of Law at King's College London, who specialises in public services and regulated industries.
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Re-nationalise all our public services
I agree
that's the game, I mean, why make the private company pay for all the wreckage they cause when they can get off scot free and we can pay for it... and then sell it back to them when it's attractive and profitable again...
@@fergusdenoon1255 The capitalist cycle.
@@RealOGfikey indeed, it's a nightmare.
@@fergusdenoon1255Socialism for me, not for thee - this is how Toryism works. It's a money-funnel posing as a political ideology.
Thatcher's legacy just keeps on giving.
There has been other Governments since her and none have got it right.
It was all just to make money to keep her in power. Supremely selfish woman.
privatisation has been an absolute clusterfk. thanks tories.
It would be a clusterfk no matter who Dunn it .
@@user-fm2dx1ff4nNo. It is specifically, exactly and solely as the result of privatisation, which is universally and inherently wrong without exception.
@@haseebur-rehman3218 when there is only one company to choose from how can it be privatised.
@@chrishart8548 By fraudulently selling its shareholding to your chums on the cheap, exactly like in any other privatisation.
@haseebur-rehman3218 that's pretty much what I said or infered it makes no difference who carried out the polices ,the three main party's were all complicit .
Privatisation was a huge success. It made the rich richer and the poor poorer, just like it was intended to do.
But now the rich will have to watch my turds floating out the window of their prime real estate which is more likely to be close to a water body.
@@MrWhitmen1981 skill issue.
My mum works in Thames water as an Assistant Vice president in one of the department and she said last week, heard it from one of her meetings, that the UK government officials reached out to them (Thames Water) and confirmed that if things go down the pan they rescue them but not take over full control because that will be too much admin work. From what she said that likely that there will be no job cuts, however some contractors may be streamlined. Hopefully tis is correct and her position will not be affected because we just moved to a small size 5 bedrooms home and obviously paying the mortgage.
Every legacy of Thatcher should be undone. She has made this country worse in every measure.
My grandfather was a miner and a lot of them nearly lose their homes because of her greed, the only people who praise thatcher are the rich or uneducated
Everything is done on the cheap to ensure the worst possible services for the highest possible prices, just look at the trains for example...
Water is a basic need and should not be owned by a profit making company
Our political system needs to wake up and admit Thatcher was wrong! How people can still Idolise for her economic “ genius “ is moronic when we look back after all these decades of economic failures and corruption. 😮
We have the same issue in the us. Non political people and conservatives have accepted individual financial success as dogma. The collective unity for the working class, the nation or humanity has been forgotten (or maybe it never really existed)
That company should be allowed to go bust and brought into the public sector without the greedy share holders seeing a penny , how dare they ask for people to pay 40% more
What not even seing the money they put in back ?
@@chrishart8548 What money they put in?!
I think it's safe to say that they've probably had that back, many times over.
@@roni7172 I'm sure if they worked it all out properly they wouldn't mind getting whatever they are entitled from the investment.
@@chrishart8548if they had money to put back in, why are they asking to increase the bills by 40% and making ever increasing payments to shareholders? The whole point of privitisation was to lower prices and increase quality of service, and neither has happened.
Privatisation of water companies which we have NO CHOICE of is RIDICULOUS!
If there's a way to privatise things badly, expect the Tories to find it. Water companies are monopolies in their areas with almost no regulation. Worst of all worlds. And utterly foreseeable.
Is uk a hedge fund masquerade as a country 🤔
We do have a choice, we live in a democracy, Jeremy Corbyn ran on a manifesto to renationalise the water companies and the electorate awarded him with the biggest electoral defeat since the 30s
@@31Blaize To be fair to them, it was privatized very well. It's just the goal was to find a way to extract the most value from the British taxpayer in the short to medium term with minimal risk to the investors. Parceling out national assets on the cheap with a captive customer base, supine regulation and the effective guarantee that the public would bail them out if they still managed to run it into the ground was a great policy if you only cared about investors and what job they'd give you once you ceased to be a Tory MP.
We might call it ridiculous, a few were absolutely over the firking moon!
Nationalise the MPs too, they’ve been privatised by wealthy lobbyists 😂😂😂
Water should never have been privatised, thank Thatcher for the ruination of your public services.
The water companies should never have been privatised in the first place. All money charged should be ploughed back into the system, not shareholders.
This is the legacy of the thatcher era. Created inequality geographically and class Wasted North Sea oil windfall (see what Norway did) Privitised water making the rich people richer
I remember it so well - I was out on the streets demonstrating against her but the craziest part was it was mostly the 'working class' and 'lower middle class' who voted for her - office workers, security guards, bar managers it was an absolute joke and still riles me to this day.
Everything we see now is the legacy of the thatchers era
Don't forget 'right to buy' which caused our current housing crisis
@@lukedinsmoreharris3068 help to buy didn't help either. Or the help to buy ICA
@@ChickpeatheTortiesecurity guards and bar managers above working class he he he
We need to impose huge fines and re-nationalize!!
Fines only go on your water bill.
@@Ghengiskhansmum No. You impose fines and cap the price!!
Don't nationalise it just let go bust and use national interest to take it over for £5.
not with the tories. unless thames refuse to pay some donations to the tory party
indeed, we keep playing this game of: let the kid take the car for a drive Kid wrecks car Take car back from kid and get it fixed at no cost to the kid let Kid take the car for a drive Kid wrecks car Take car back from kid and get it fixed at no cost to the kid let kid take car for a drive... Kid wrecks car MAKE THE KID PAY FOR THE REPAIRS!!!!!
£5 would be an over payment
Anyone else wish that Thames Water would stop pushing problems onto the customer, and actually sort out the problems themselves. But this is never going to happen under their current guise, or in the way the organisation is run; so yea, just re-nationalise water in the UK. And soon after this, the gas and electricity aswell. The idea of putting 'shareholders' ahead of customers isn't just illogical - it's absurd and grotesque. Yet we've all 'meekly' put up with this model for the last 35 years. It may have worked (sort of) in the late 80's/early 90's.....but it no longer works (as a viable model) now, in 2024.
The shares will be worthless give the shareholders not a penny.
Why are they not charged with endangering the public health and destruction of the environment ?
Shareholders should stop draining the money and foot the bills we have already payed our money in
Hear! Hear!
Absolutely!
They shouldn't, that's against the whole principle of shareholder driven capitalistic profitable business. Public utilities shouldn't be privately owned. That is the entirety of the problem,
I'm GLAD someone is talking about this, "shareholders" in any industry especially healthcare destroying this country, it's shocking!!
"Bring it up to current standards" WHY IS IT NOT ALREADY AT CURRENT STANDARDS?! Because they're more interested in rewarding shareholders than delivering a working service. Nationalise the lot.
All utilities should be nationalised, Water, Gas, Electricity passenger transport. They've paid out £72 Billion to shareholders.
All public service to be renationalised
NO TAKEN OVER AFTER THEY GO BUST. THEY HAVE GOT ENOUGHT OF THE PEOPLE'S MONEY.
Lets be clear, privatisation hasn't failed, it succeeded brilliantly in generating massive profits for the Maggon and her friends.
This is a perfect example as to how privatisation was only ever based on greed.
It's been like this for years. The Tories AND parliament have been complicit in allowing laws to either be bent or ignored.
And Blair
We need legislation that enshrines public ownership within many layers of law. Our natural resources, infrastructure, and public services should never be privately owned.
Nothing should be privately owned.
All shows the folly and greed of privatisation of these essential services in the 80s.
If only some of us did not see this coming 30 years ago . We could claim this was all so unforseeable . Doh !
It could be seen from the moment WWII ended really
@chrishart8548 after the war we had to rebuild we also made demands to a better future , hence the nationalisation , build them fast and build them high was the beginning of the end . And thacher was the nail in the coffin .
It may come as a surprise to some, but private companies who have a monopoly of the market will maximise their profits and ignore the interests of their customers.
The corporation is there to make money for 'his' shareholders that is his only duty
I say just add the 40% if that's what's needed, what are we going to do dig our own well. The government stepping in can't really solve anything. Everytime the government get involved the price goes up.
Its been a massive rip off full stop.We pay the highest prices for just about everything.
Just wait until they privatize the NHS. Should be fun times
If they do it like some other countries it will be great. If they do it like America we are in big trouble. Its not working out great right now and its only going to get worse.
@@chrishart8548 how can it be done great?
@@cwhit0110 have a look at some other countries health systems. I'm not doing it for you. Our NHS is actually the worsed systems.
@@stephjsinclair everything was working till the Tories wrecked everything.
What do you mean "wait"...they've already privatised huge chunks of the NHS'
Just wait till they privatise "AIR"😢😢😢🥵
They’re disingenuous. They said they would invest if they could make hundreds of people redundant. They did it at Christmas. Months later they say they will invest if they can put bills up by 40% I guarantee they will then say ‘We will invest if Ofwat stop fining us for polluting British waterways’ They won’t invest, they will syphon off the money for as long as they can before darting for the door.
Who would have thought that selling off our resources for less than their worth and then renting them back would have been a problem? gas, electricty, water, buses, trains, leisure services, BT, steel, BA, regional airports - wow I feel so much richer now that I have to get a mortgage out just to use any of them.
Exactly, it’s being run purely for shareholders, nationalisation would be the cheapest option.
So 40% increase due to the incompetence
It's 72bn in dividends, roughly two thirds of profit in the last 30 years. 1bn in investment per annum in the same period.
Simple answer is Yes
Global are lucky to have Matthew one of the best presenters on the station….
I can’t understand why the government hadn’t intervened and allowed the water company to go bankrupt
Surprise surprise that companies do what companies do. Privatised utilities have failed catastrophically.
It’s perfectly evident that Thames water Share holders are behaved exactly the same as Venture Capitalists.
A serious government would immediately stop shares trading for the company, nationalise it, and put both civil and criminal charges forward against C-level and shareholders for breach of contract and endangering public health.
When the hunt for profits directly interferes with the delivery of the service, it's time to prioritise service delivery by removing the profit motive.
If only everyone had realised this when Corbyn was running.
Businesses are run solely for profit. There are rules about it that executives have to follow. If you want them to do something else then they need to have laws applied, you know, like the ones that stopped them dumping raw sewage?
Thames Water debt is equal to shareholder payouts. Clearly does not make sense to be privatised
Regulatory Capture. An extraordinarily explanatitive concept
How has the government allowed the situation to get so bad.
they don't care as it doesn't affect them
Let TW collapse and the shareholders lose everything. Then take it into public ownership. National infrastructure should not be for profit.
We shouldn't re-nationalise as that implies a purchase, with the taxpayer underwriting the cost. WE SHOULD instead let it fail and then set up a non-profit on the Welsh Water model.
Pretty sure that doesn't necessarily imply a purchase, it just means a change in ownership type. But the means by which that is accomplished isn't in the definition. But I agree, we all should just confiscate private industries. The leeches do not deserve an extra payout for their mismanagement.
@@Khalkara Nationalisation is State purchase of a private going concern. Take a look at The Coal Industry Nationalisation Act 1946 received royal assent on 12 July 1946, as example. Its long title is ‘An Act to establish public ownership and control of the coal-mining industry and certain allied activities; and for purposes connected therewith.’ Provisions The provisions of the act comprise 65 sections in nine parts, plus four schedules. The National Coal Board, Sections 1-4: Establishment of National Coal Board, its functions, constitution, power of the Minister, and establishment of Consumers' councils, Transfer of assets to the Board, Sections 5-9: Transfer of assets; interests in patents and designs; rights and liabilities; use of certain property; determination of questions of transfer, Compensation for transfer of assets, Sections 10-16: Compensation for transfer and basis for assessment; allocation of transferred interests; Central and District Valuation Boards; compensation; payment of costs; time limits, Compensation for severance, and refunds of capital outlay, Sections 17 & 18: Compensation for severance; refund of capital outlay Satisfaction and disposal of compensation, Sections 19-25: Date of compensation; recipients of compensation; mode of satisfaction; interim income; satisfaction of compensation; restrictions on disposal of stock; protection; debenture and shareholders of companies, Financial provisions, Sections 26-35: Advances by the minister; borrowing powers; payments to the minister; reserve fund; surplus revenues; accounts and audits; issue of stock; general provisions of stock; Consolidated Fund; payments and advances to the Board; account of receipts, Savings, and provisions consequential on nationalisation, Sections 36-45: Provision of superannuation rights; transfer of property; functions of the Coal Commission; abolition of coal advisory committee; Miners' Welfare Commission; safety and health research; winding-up of coal-selling schemes; Doncaster Drainage District, Miscellaneous provisions as to the Board, Sections 46-54: Terms and conditions of employment; taxation; transfer of liability for subsidence; liability of the board; workmen's compensation liabilities; documents of the board; plans of workings; transferred documents; annual report, General, Sections 55-65: Payment of certain expenses; disclosure of information; penalties; prosecutions and offences; notices; arbitration; regulations; interpretation application to Scotland; short title, extent and repeal. First schedule, Assets to be transferred to the board Second schedule, Transfer to the board of rights and liabilities under contracts Third schedule, Provisions as to Selling Schemes under part I of the Coal Mines Act 1930, and as to the South Yorkshire Mines Drainage Committee Fourth schedule, Enactments repealed.
When there's a profit motive in essential services, we know that it's the service that suffers, not the profit/dividends.
This applies to non essential services too. Don't be dense.
@@Khalkara as we see this has happened to water, the NHS, transport etc. All essential services, all being destroyed by the profit motive.
@@Human_Herbivore Again, this happens to non essential services too.
@@Khalkara OK, but the important thing here is the word essential, right?
@@Human_Herbivore I don't see why? If a cancer is growing in someone's lungs, does it matter if that someone is an engineer or a shop clerk? Surely the focus should be on removing the cancer to prevent harm?
Since privatisation not one new reservoir has been built and the population has grown by 10 million since then
Yes it is! Way over time.
The private sector is vital, but it can't supply public services for profit at the same time as providing decent affordable services on any front because the profit is not financial, it's societal, and that's not what the private sector exist to do. Never have and never will.
It was "time" about 40 years ago
Extraordinary isn’t it. £7bn since 89, when it should’ve been our money.😡 It hasn’t failed if you are a shareholder 🤦♂️
So, the privatised services and utilities have been taking the p!ss, sometimes literally.
London is in the top 10 cities expected to experience severe water shortages in the future, due to a failure to invest in water storage in the last 30. Years.
Only after the shareholders are made to repay the dividends. Surely if they benefit when the "profits" go up they should pay when the debts go up to?
Investment supposedly about putting their capital at RISK.
It's time we nationalised all public services. I'd be up for privatisation... If it meant private money and investment going in to the services, but it's still always taxpayer money and they reap the profits while our public services get worse. Might as well nationalised what we already pay for I say
It’s a fantastic system these shareholders and CEOs have managed to create for themselves
We were told that privatising the water companies would enable the Victorian system from investment raised. Now after 30 YEARS they haven’t done it. Paid out 7billion and put the company into debt. Remember buying shares is a risk. We should re nationalise without compensation. This has been the same with the Electric, gas and railways. Made shareholders rich at our expense and the government bailing out when things go bad.
Do you remember when we used to worry about balance of payments ? Privatisation leads to a constant flow of money abroad, water dividends to China, Australia, train leasing to German companies (we actually subsidise German railways) etc We should re-nationalise these public assets, invest the profits in renewal and updating infrastructure (as we were promised privatisation would do ha, ha).
The Water industry was debt free when privatised in 1989 and we were told privatisation would bring investment and much needed upgrades to the infrastructure which it was estimated would cost around £30bn to bring up to EU standards . Since privatisation dividend payouts total £72bn. Debts across the industry are now £60bn. And they still need to upgrade the infrastructure. Clearly having public services run by the private sector doesnt work as they need to get into debt just to pay the dividends they believe they deserve and then expect the public, who are tied into their monopoly, to foot the bill. 35 years of failure. Renationalise now!
It should not be a business. It should provide a service where any profits go back into the service.
The uks relationship with privatisation is unique in terms off nothing is off the table most infrastructure is foreign owned ironically by publicly owned companies so we pay others bills, effectively an extraction based system.
We are so used to viewing nationalisation through the prism of the union’s perspective - which is, given what unions are, inevitably based in workers rights. It’s become increasingly clear that for essential public services, that is only one facet of the argument. These are services we cannot be without - ultimately, that means the tax payer is going to guarantee its debts, because it has to. How can it be right that they do not share in the profit (on the off chance)? How can it be right that assets are leveraged against debt to pay dividends when there is no upside to the tax payer, only risk?
Matthew I doubt very much if Thames Water (a Malaysian corporation) would be happy to sell their incredibly profitable business - it will never happen. We're stuck with this
Not just Thames Water! OFWAT’s report: Water Company Performance Report 2022-23 - Ofwat (page 5 of 41) shows that Southern Water has failed to meet the performance levels that they had committed to in the following areas: 1. Customer satisfaction 2. Priority services 3. Leakage 4. Per capita consumption 5. Supply interruptions 6. Drinking water quality 7. Mains repairs 8. Internal sewer flooding 9. Pollution incidents (category 1-3) 10. Sewer collapses 11. Treatment works compliance The only area that Southern Water met it’s 2022-23 commitments was: Unplanned outage As a customer of South East Water / Southern Water, I am frustrated to see of their criminal negligence not being addressed with employee/director convictions. I am tired of being told by water companies that they are doing enough when the data published by OFWAT shows that their performance is far below levels that they committed to and, furthermore OFWAT’s financial penalties are being deferred due to the water companies experiencing cash flow challengies because they are not getting enough money from their residential customers.
We're finally now reduced the inevitable and wholly undeniable truth that "profits" invariably equate to sewage.
The bills will rise by 40%, not to fix anything but, to give themselves and their shareholders one more big fat golden handshake before they leave the country for their respective tax havens and watch as it all collapses. Then the public will have to bear the cost of their greed yet again. All assets should be seized before the crooks get a chance to sell up and move out.
The only problem is our MPs cant run a tap let alone a water company
£850.000 not forgetting he’s probably a shareholder aswell and he’s telling the customers that are probably on £30.000 they need to cough up to fund his lifestyle because let’s face it they never invested money back into the company so it’s went in all their wealthy pockets
Thank you for bringing this up.
The water companies should have OUR WATER confiscated and put to better use.
How about no dividends until it’s done
The people that said before privatization that this would be the result, we should listen more to those people. To expect that a corporation set up to generate profit quarter over quarter would ever do something other than…just that…has proven to be a bad strategy.
Why would you listen to experts.
Sorry, Starmer can't mess with the donor class!!!
That’s 100% right - the only excuse for privatisation of a monopoly was that it could mean they would be able to invest MORE and run things more efficiently - resulting in cheaper bills and better service. But nobody explained HOW or WHY they would do this as profit driven private company with the whole purpose to grow profits and pay out more in dividends …with a guaranteed income with no need to “keep customers” happy , let alone attract “new business”
That a vital public service as water distribution & waste management can find itself in a situation where the people it relies on to prop up it's business can deem it "uninvestable" and base any further investment on the condition of massive bill hikes is the biggest argument for nationalisation. Privatisation of utilities can never result in a better deal for customers. They inevitably become wealth extraction industries for shareholders & the longer this remains the case the more deeply the industry gets plundered to retain that investment, at an ever-increasing cost for the consumer and, in this case, our environment.
Will there be Barnet consequentials for devolved administrations, in the event of the renationalisation of Thames water?
Privatise profit, nationalise debt. Standard Tory tactics.
Same lot eyeing NHS now
Just keep 'asking nicely'. I am sure those in power will do what you request. 🕊
Would be interesting to know how much has been paid out to senior management, advisers and shareholders over the last 5 years or so …
72 billion
Yes provided the government lumps the dept onto the investors. I couldn’t really care less is a bunch of Canadians loose their pensions
Should privatise all the water companies. ST is also ripping us in east midlands.
Rishi Sunak is from private equity. Maybe he has some clever scheme to fix this catastrophe that his mates helped bring about.
All the water companies are privatised monopolies. Thames Water should be declared bankrupt with none of the debt being paid to those who lent them the money.
It will be the public purse that bail them out. Where as they have privatised the profits.
It should be remembered that Thames Water is actually a 'Malaysian' corportation I doubt very much if we actually have any power of 'him' yes corporations are 'he's and it is not in his remit to invest in 'infastructure' 'he' is there purely to make a profit for 'his' shareholders that is 'his' only duty.
I don’t want it nationalised, I want them to be made to fix it first. I don’t see why I should pay taxes to fix their decades of neglect. Once our water infrastructure is back to a serviceable state we can talk nationalisation, until then I want to see them litigated and regulated so heavily their jaws drop to the bottom of the trough they’ve been gorging from.
The goal of a private company Stay in the infinite game Make a profit Thats it
Thames Water is not a water service company. It is a giant cash machine for the shareholders. Prior to privatisation, it borrowed money to invest in its infrastructure plans.
There is a need for the UK to control its basic cos Power Water and the likes should not be sold off to foreign investors
Point out the private companies that don't put money and shareholders first
This is the main reason ordinary people are struggling. The men at the top are getting more and more greedy and keep hiking prices. While providing shambolic services and investing less than bare minimum to continue operating. Paying workers less and less so that full time employees need the state to top up so they can “get by”. That’s a form of state funded support in its self. Privatisation was always doomed to failure. There needs to be some drastic changes here in the uk, otherwise things are only going to get worse.
And Starmer wants to keep this nightmare going.
How
I'm so glad I live in a "Share owning Democracy".
Surely one of the main considerations when they were privatised was the potential disaster of selling shares to those who have no interest in maintaining the quality of the product. The product here being water. Would if not have been wise to sell to those who actually want Thames water to function properly