The Obsolete Bomber That Was Sent Against The Japanese Fleet | Douglas TBD-1 Devastator
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Today we're looking at the Douglas TBD-1 Devastator. An aircraft that began life as the most cutting-edge to be found in the United States military, but one that was completely obsolete after just a few short years. Its poor performance at the battle of Midway soured its WW2 reputation, but even so it played a vital part in the turning of the tide.
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The Hangar Team :
Rex - Aviation enthusiast for 25+ years, obsessive collector of books, compiler of research, and narrator.
Alexandros - Co-Writer/Research assistant and preserver of Rex's sanity.
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0:00 Topic Intro
1:00 Design Origins
4:07 Prototype XTBD-1
7:01 Prototype Modifications
9:08 First Production TBD
14:21 TBD-1A Floatplane
17:47 Early Service Life & Problems
23:05 War Thunder Promo
24:57 Why Was It Unprepared For War?
31:58 Early Wartime Service
36:37 Battle of the Coral Sea
41:03 Battle of Midway
49:23 Post-Midway & Reflections
Sources:
Adcock.A (1989), TBD Devastator in Action.
Tillman.B (2000), TBD Devastator Units of the US Navy.
Jackson.B.R. & Doll.T.E. (1973), Douglas TBD-1 'Devastator'.
The Douglas TB Devastator - Profile Publication No.171.
Naval History and Heritage Command:
-Combat Narrative: Early Raids in the Pacific Ocean.
-Combat Narrative: The Battle of the Coral Sea.
-Combat Narrative: The Battle of Midway.
Play War Thunder for FREE on PC, PS®5 and Xbox Series X|S: playwt.link/rexshangar Follow the link to download the game to get a premium tank, aircraft AND ship, along with a seven day account boost just for downloading. F.A.Q Section Q: Do you take aircraft requests? A: I have a list of aircraft I plan to cover, but feel free to add to it with suggestions:) Q: Why do you use imperial measurements for some videos, and metric for others? A: I do this based on country of manufacture. Imperial measurements for Britain and the U.S, metric for the rest of the world, but I include text in my videos that convert it for both. Q: Will you include video footage in your videos, or just photos? A: Video footage is very expensive to licence, if I can find footage in the public domain I will try to use it, but a lot of it is hoarded by licencing studies (British Pathe, Periscope films etc). In the future I may be able to afford clips :) Q: Why do you sometimes feature images/screenshots from flight simulators? A: Sometimes there are not a lot of photos available for certain aircraft, so I substitute this with digital images that are as accurate as possible. Feel free to leave you questions below - I may not be able to answer all of them, but I will keep my eyes open :)
The word project is said proj-ect not pro-ject other wise you are throwing an image up on a wall to non English speakers this will confuse them that's why correct pronunciation of syllables is important.
@@johnruddick686 I must point out that the pro-cess of the pro-ject is precisely the way that the English Speakers of Canada and the Nothern Midwestern United States would be pronouncing it.
just war thunders latest update will make half the game unplayable since all they did was just add problems so good luck
I’ve waited for this… maybe a video on the p-47 thunderbolt’s history???
this is like trying to correct Aluminum with Alouminium, its the same word being prounounced in MULTIPLE DIFFERENT WAYS! (i know, a really tough concept to grasp, for an alien being not from earth.)
I do have something to add here. In 1979 I was at a CAF airshow in Harlingen, Texas, and saw this old gentleman selling a book called "Sole Survivor" in the vendor area. I recognized George Gay on the cover in a period photo. All of a sudden it hit me, but I still couldn't believe my eyes and what the circumstances suggested. In a state of near shock, I said, "Wait, are you George Gay?" And he said, "Yes." You could have blown me over with a feather! For the next half hour, I had one of the most awe-inspiring and memorable conversations of my life. Here were the biggest takeaways: He was self-effacing, like, "well, these were the things that happened to me as a naval aviator; and I don't consider myself a hero." That was impressive. His attitude was that he did what was expected of him. He described the TBD as a pleasant, easy aircraft to fly while recognizing that it was obsolete. But his attitude was that it was all they had. IIRR, he also said the June 4 mission was his first opportunity to drop a torpedo from the aircraft! On the cover of the book was a photo of him in the cockpit of a TBF, and that surprised me. I asked about it and was then astounded to learn that he participated in the Guadalcanal campaign and flew TBF missions out of Henderson Field. When I asked him how he was able to return to combat flying after coming so close to being killed at Midway, his answer was also inspiring. "It was easy. We were in the middle of a war, and I wanted to get back at the Japanese for what they had done to my squadron." I can't imagine a better expression of the spirit of the time than that. Of course, I purchased a copy of his self-published book, and its inscription to me in it makes it one of my proudest possessions. I do recommend it.
Very cool story
I never met Gay, but I have an autographed copy of his book. Highly recommended reading.
What a treat to meet a legend!
Thanks for sharing your amazing experience.
What a good memory to have and keeping his memory alive!!
Fun Fact: Zuikaku, the last of the 6 aircraft carriers who attacked Pearl Harbor to be sunk was the only Japanese Aircraft Carrier sunk by aerial launched torpedoes. All others being sunk by bombs or Submarine launched torpedoes. Shows you how bad the American torpedoes really were for most of the war. Great video.
Submarine launched torpedoes were also pretty bad. The Mk14. But they were fixed about halfway through the war. Dive bombers were pretty good though.
Or how terrifying American dive bombing was. SBDs accounted for 4 of those carriers with bombs, leaving 1 for a sub and 1 for aerial torps. Obviously you can partly blame the godawfulness of the available torpedoes, but records pretty clearly show the US Navy relied very heavily on their dive bombers to great success.
Fascinating
@Cancer McAids Thinking back to the era, it was seen as a faster torpedo boat. If a torpedo boat was mildly viable, why not a biplane going 3 times faster?
@Cancer McAids Didn’t a Brit torpedo bomber disable the Bismarck? How about the Battle of Taranto? Torpedo bombing worked pretty well there! The US’s disappointing results in the Pacific can be completely blamed on faulty torpedo detonators.
“200mph top speed was unacceptable for a torpedo bomber by 1941.” Fairey Swordfish: Hold my beer.
I can't imagine a swordfish going up against a zero. The swordfish was a fantastic plane. But it would have been mincemeat.
@@PaulfromChicago The Swordfish wasn't a fighter. It was a bomber, and would've been escorted by actual fighters in that scenario. The Fulmar was dodgy at the best of times, but Sea Hurricanes, Martlets (the British Wildcat) and especially the Seafires were perfectly capable of taking on Zeroes. Of course, the Swordfish did have one advantage: the Royal Navy could do carrier night operations, unlike the Americans and Japanese. It doesn't matter how slow your bombers are if there are no enemy fighters there to shoot at them.
@@Cailus3542 The same way the Swordfish was escorted during the Channel Dash?
@@Cailus3542 The final run of the Devastators was taken without fighter escort because the strike package got separated and lost. If the strike had happened as it was supposed to, the Dauntlesses would have gone in first along with the Wildcats, while the Devastators took advantage of the confusion and melee to make their torpedo runs against at worst minimal AA fire cover. Instead, they were inadvertently the bait, forcing the 1st Carrier Striking Force's Zeros to expend most of their fuel and ammunition and pulling the CAP off to the southwest. When the Dauntlesses began their dives from the southeast, the Zeros were thousands of feet below them and dozens of miles to the west.
Stupid comment. As if the Swordfish would've done any better under the conditions at Midway. Even the Avenger performed just as poorly at Midway. The torpedoes couldn't be launched much over @125mph so the top speed of the aircraft was actually irrelevant. You could've had squadrons of F-18s carrying them and it wouldn't have made a difference with no coordination and no fighter escort.
I wonder how much more stuff would've been sunk if the Bureau of Ordnance actually admitted their fault and/or done actual testing with live torpedoes before (Yes, they did not test EVEN A SINGLE live torpedo before the war because they deemed it as "too costly")
Right! Apparently the lives of aviators are far cheaper than the due diligence of proper R&D.
We're used to $600 billion DoD budgets. Back then all the services were starved and short staffed. They literally couldn't afford to live test torpedoes, no matter how much they wanted to.
@@michaelmorford3932 You should see how US submariners were treated when complaining about defective torpedoes, fire 20 torpedoes and have only three explode only to be accused of incompetence upon return.
So began one of the major naval campaigns of WWII as Adm King spent a year demolishing the defences of BuOrd to convince them to test their damn equipment. Tbf it was only during WWII that the effects of the variations in Earth’s magnetic field were being understood and some of these effects, that killed the US torpedo detonators, also reduced the Japanese Zero’s relatively unshielded radio signals to screaming feedback & static.
British torpedoes did the job but obviously “not invented here” is highly important in such matters.
I really liked the Navy’s pre-war aircraft. The yellow wings, color markings so you can identify the carrier and the US insignia which they did away with after Midway.
Yes I agree, aircraft of this era were beautiful, almost like an old Hollywood nostalgia look. The late 1970s to late 1980s navy markings were also beautiful on the Tomcats, before the less attractive low visability markings of the 1990s. The USAF F22 with the old school WW1 Hat in the Ring paintjob looked fantastic.
@Cancer McAids Yes the yellow wings were to make the plane easier to spot if it ditched in the ocean.
These markings were done away with before Midway. Without looking, I believe the red/white stripes on the rudder were finally done away with in May '42.
@@mh53j the markings were done away with but the insignia with the red dot on the white star were present at Midway. They were later done away with because of being mistaken for Japanese insignia. Also I said the markings were pre-war
There's a YT video of US Navy's pre WW aircraft: "Flying Scenes From Dive Bomber (1941)" I also like the marking and color scheme.
Rex: So here we have an American torpedo plane from WW2. His viewer base that overlaps with drachnifel's: WW2 American torpedoes? OH NO, IT IS DOOMED.
I've always thought the story of VT-8 is the most undersold event in the Pacific war. The sacrifice of Waldron's men and all the others that day is what allowed the dive bombers to come in unopposed.
They also bought time for the SBDs to find the Japanese carriers and caused Nagumo such indecision that, when the dive bombers did arrive, the carrier hangars and flight decks were full of munitions, fuel, and armed, fueled aircraft. This made them floating bombs; only 1 bomb was necessary to blow up Akagi. The sacrifice of Torpedos 2 and 3 plus the diversion provided by Thach and VF-3 had the CAP either down near sea level or busy fighting Thach’s Wildcats.
I thought historians had decided that claim wasn't entirely true, as the gap in time between attacks was more than long enough for the Japanese fighters to return to effective altitude.
@@JD_79 I believe the Zeros that took out VT-8 were returning for fuel & ammo when the SBDs came in. Additionally, the CAP had earlier been dealing with waves of land-based bombers of various types. CAP was played out when SBDs reached target.
They were all supposed to attack together with fighter protection
The Avengers on Midway were also part of VT-8
At the Battle of the Coral Sea, the US carriers involved were the Lexington and Yorktown, not Yorktown and Enterprise. Enterprise and Hornet arrived after the battle was over.
Yeah, he said Enterprise and I'm like nope, but then got the names correct later.
The Enterprise and Hornet were still on the way back from the Doolittle raid.
My grandfather was one of the "secondary pilots" in the US Navy. His primary rating was that of Aviation Machinist Mate and secondary rating was Airplane Pilot.
I couldn't imagine guys like your grandfather being told that they would be making a landing on an carrier with limited hours. The pressure would be so intense. Did your grandfather get to make a carrier landing? Give us more details. 🙏 In Vietnam my dad was an avionics tech and was taught to fly helicopters during the numerous test flights they had to do. There was a shortage of pilots and as expected the military didn't want to spare a trained pilot for something as important as safety tests. So my dad and a couple of the others were slowly trained by their one and only helicopter pilot. However that guy was a mechanic pilot and not a combat pilot. Typical military planning.
@@Jonathan.D The old man got carrier qualified on the flat top in the Great Lakes. He said they had them fly out to the boat (from Chicago?), do 5 traps and 4 launches in SNJ's, then switch with another guy who was getting qualified. He said he was "fine", until _after_ he had done his 5th trap and had to get out of the cockpit... It was then (his first time aboard a carrier!) that he realized of f*#!ng small the boat was. That is when he started getting nervous.
@@stay_at_home_astronaut That's so cool that he got to land on the USS Sable. I've seen a few videos about it. It was definitely not a full size carrier and looked like a good breeze could lay it over. Thanks for sharing! 👍
@@Jonathan.D landing with a strong side wind is hard enough. I'd not like to manually land on a ww2 carrier.
@@hicknopunk It's definitely not for the faint of heart.
Thank you for honoring the TBD crews at Midway. I cry every time I see or read about their losses. Bad torpedoes, bad coordination and bad luck into fierce opposition but those men never faltered.
DAUNTLESS was the courage of the Devastator crews !
Rest in peace USN Devastator Torpedo Squadron 8.😔🙏🏾 🦅⚓
The Devastator was a good plane but deployed badly in circumstances some of which were and were not under the control of the USN. Unescorted and up against the elite, 1942 cadre of A6M pilots of the IJN, of course it looked bad. The Fairey Swordfish closing in on Bismarck might not have such a legendary reputation if, on the attack run, they suddenly were set upon by a couple of staffel of Bf109Fs flown by JG52.
Ju 87 Stukas lost their good reputation in the Battle of Britain due to serious Fighter Opposition too. Neither plane (Ju 87, Devastator or Swordfish) is "bad" or "oustanding". Their reputation was a product of good or bad planning and/or luck / bad luck.
The Channel Dash comes to mind. All Swordfish launched with escort ( Spitfires and Hurricanes) were lost to fighters,Bf109s and Fw 190s.
Excellent point and I very much agree. Many people on KZhead get seduced by the 'statistics' of an aircraft, and struggle understanding other things like how/when the aircraft was used, and how this affects reputation.
Cool topic Rex! The TBD is a fascinating tale. Fun fact, there is actually one TBF off the coast of Miami in 500 feet of water! On my bucket list to visit and make a video about it :)
Greetings from Japan i certainly agree. TBD Devastator was never the worst aircraft. it just happened to be equipped with the worst torpedo that performed so badly that our ships at the time were able to perform good maneuvers where we skillfully avoided those torpedoes. even if they were to hit, 90% percent of them won't explode due to faulty mechanism. but for the aircraft, i can say that it was a good aircraft to fly.
27:56 "reduced to an obsolete brick" Fairy Swordfish: **laughs in British**
The attack by VT-8 and the circumstances that led up to their solo attack reminds me of a certain poem... "Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon in front of them, Volleyed and thundered..."
Totally just even more heroic
No mention of LCDR Waldron's airborne mutiny (see Mrazek's "A Dawn Like Thunder"), probably the most difficult decision ever made by a Naval Aviator? Ditto the cover up by Flag Officers and Ring (CAG) afterwards, resulting in fellow Aviators being left adrift in their rafts? There were many crucial events, but absent LCDR Waldron's mutiny, we probably lose. Ring got the Spartan’s curse: “May you live forever”, but it's an important lesson for future participants.
I love the devastator. Wrong place, wrong time, wrong equipment, but a damn cool aircraft
@Aqua Fyre totally agree. They really were instrumental at midway, despite their losses. The sacrifice of the crews have and will be remembered.
I think it is better to remember the TBD-1 as the last of a stop gap plane of the 30s. It was definitely obsolete by the time of the battle of Midway. However, that being said, if the attack during Midway had been done as planned with fighter cover, its role in that battle might have been somewhat better.
The did well at Coral Sea, just a month before.
@@Ocrilat Yes somewhat. Just too bad they were given an inferior weapon. Also, their Japanese counterpart, the BN5 Torpedo Bomber was also reaching the end of its career at the same time.
@@coleparker I have to say I really enjoy the followers of Rex here. It's refreshing to be able to talk with people who know their shit and can discuss and even disagree without getting upset (a majority at least). That being said... If I remember correctly, the Avenger was planned to have already replaced the Devastator by the time of Midway, but Grumman had some technical issues that had to be ironed out that delayed production. There were a number of factors that led to the slaughter, but it's pretty clear that the TBDs obsolescence wasn't as pivotal as some people think it is. As I said above, any carrier aircraft of the period, in the same situation, would have been slaughtered. As The Avenger was brand new and built by the famed 'Grumman Iron Works', and they were slaughtered too. Japanese CAP was just that deadly.
@@Ocrilat Totally agree with you. As I stated, the pivotal reason for their poor performance at Midway was the lack of coordination in the attack, followed by poor torpedoes. In both, tactics and weapons, the IJN Carrier torpedo units were superior at that time.
@@coleparker I find it interesting that the Devastator (entered service in 1937) and the B5N (entered service 1938) are described as obsolete and nearing the end of their career, while the Fairey Swordfish (entered service in 1936) outlasted its successor in production with copies still being produced in 1944 and is on record having sunk a greater tonnage of Axis shipping than any other allied aircraft during the war. BTW, while production ceased in 1944 (because they had plenty by that point) the Swordfish remained in front-line service until V-E Day..
Bureau of Ordinance is justly reviled as the whipping boys for early USN torpedo performance. In my estimation, mostly for their staunch and unreasonable defense of their weapons at the expense of US pilots and submarine sailors. The initial designs were severely hampered by lack of funds for testing. This does not excuse their intransigence, however.
It didn't help that the CO of BuOrd was the same one who was the primary designer and was steadfast in denying that there was anything wrong with "His" torpedo.
It wasn't only ordinance..congress limited the budget... testing should have been done but when you have multiple projects short on money and the man in charge insists it great testing goes out the window.
@@duanesamuelson2256 Yes, there was this little thing called the Depression going on. But still they probably could have done testing that didnot involve detonating the torpedo.
@@mpetersen6 since when did being broke stop politicians from spending money? Spending money on testing wouldn't help them get reelected is all
@@duanesamuelson2256 There is that. One thing most people don't seem to know is that in the 1932 presidential election FDR went after Hoover for deficit spending.
You set the highest bar for other KZhead aviation historians to follow. Superb video editing, great source materials, engaging narration, and no cheesy music filler. You and Greg’s Airplanes and Automobiles are the go-to gents!
When you mentioned the squadron commander flying despite serious injury cause he was 'certain of victory' or was he afraid of what could and did happen and hoped his presence and experience might soften the blow. Brave man either way.
The Navy's greatest moment of the war was the Devastator disaster at Midway...the raw fighting spirit, sheer determination, and incredible bravery of the American pilots flying a stillborn airplane
A well balanced, objective and well researched analysis. Excellent in all respects.
I remember this plane because my Sister and I made models as kids and this was her first ever 😍 I loved it. The yellow wings and earlier roundels made it look something special in comparison to my drab brown and green Spit. Anyway, pointless facts about me aside, great video, really enjoyed this one Rex, keep on giving us great content please!
This brings back some memories... as this was one of the first model kits that I made as a little kid. I remember it had little crew / pilot figures you could place around the plane. Probably used three bottles of Testors yellow on those wings tho.
I remember building the Monogram versio of it.
You did an amazing job here, and I was particularly impressed by how many images and films you did manage to find for us.
Excellent work, enjoyed the whole way through! The TBD did as well as a aircraft of its age could have been expected. The bravery of those who flew it will always be remembered.
Good stuff-here are a couple things to add: There was a second production batch to replace attrition in the fleet, 15 aircraft BuNos 1505 to 1519. Gay and Waldron both flew TBDs from that batch at Midway. There was a removable panel under the fuselage behind the bomb/torpedo "racks" on the fuselage center line where a third 500lb bomb could be carried inside a bay. The TBD-1A was the first production Devastator (compare the BuNo in the photos-same plane). 25:11 Look closely at three of the TBDs on the aft deck that have what appear to be dirty topsides. These are three of six aircraft that were painted in experimental camouflage of a light dusting of silver lacquer overall (note you can barely see the fuselage codes through the paint) and the topsides were painted either black, green or blue. This was done for Fleet Problem XXI in 1940. Green was found to be the most effective color over the ocean so the USN oddly decided to paint all their aircraft light gray... That decision may have been based on effective colors in the Atlantic for the Neutrality Patrols. One of these aircraft was BuNo 0284 and the USN archives has a photo of this aircraft hanging from a crane on board Yorktown after crashing on deck with the topside color intact. Note this is NOT the Barclay experiment. John Ford's Torpedo Squadron 8 color film shows the crews taking off on 4 June as well as many of them waiting for the signal to go. Easily found here on the tube 👍 The TBD has been my favorite WW II aircraft since I first saw (and bought) the old Monogram kit in a local department story, maybe in 1975. Thanks for making this video.
I did the old Monogram kit at roughly the same time. Glorious color scheme! Love the chrome yellow wings and tri-color roundels.
While the near-total losses of the TBDs at Midway are well noted, I don't think that they can be solely attributed to the performance (or lack of performance) of the TBD itself. Consider that there were other torpedo attacks during the battle - 6 TBF Avengers from VT-8, flying from Midway, and 4 Army Air Forces B-26 Marauders, also flying from Midway. 5 of the TBFs were lost, with 2 of the crew of 3 surviving), and two of the Marauders were lost. The Marauders were making their approaches at nearly 250 kts (375 km/hr), and were a tough target for an A6M at that speed and altitude, but they still got shot up.
as drachinifel is to naval matters, you are to aeronautical matters. great content sir.
The TBD was one of the planes featured in the 1941 Warner Brothers movie, "Dive Bomber." The SBC biplane Helldiver was also there--the SBD wasn't in service during filming. At the Battle of the Coral Sea the TBD did okay. 5 out of 6 brand new TBF Avengers were lost in the Battle of Midway along with 3 out of 4 B-26 used for torpedo bombing. The TBD losses at Midway actually had a lower loss rate--but the TBD production lines were switched over to other aircraft.
31:44 it's funny that you mention using the Mk XIII as a blunt force instrument! Captain Thornborough, a B-26 pilot from the 73rd BS in the Aleutians tried just that, essentially dive bombing the Ryujo with his Mk XIII and hoping it would be more useful in that manner. Unfortunately, he missed. The squadron never managed to sink anything with torpedoes, though they were erroneously credited with sinking a ship due to the nature of "confirmed kills" at the time.
It is now generally understood due to the work of Jon Parshall and Anthony Tully that the efforts of the torpedo squadrons at Midway didn't account for the later success of the dive bombers. The torpedo attacks were done some 20 to 30 minutes prior to the arrival of the carrier dive groups. Given the climb rate of the A6M, the Japanese CAP could have been at altitude in plenty of time to intercept the dive bombers so the reason for their absence must lie elsewhere.
Glad somebody pointed this out. In 2024, you're being hateful to say the Devastator sucked and its crews died for no purpose (even though it's true). Instead we do like the British and spin a heroic yarn of sacrifice. Truth is the battle would have ended up exactly the same if the Devastators had all been left on the pier at Pearl Harbor.
I believe several squadrons in the Pacific field modified their gunner's positions with twin 30cals similar to the SBDs. There are a few rare photos from the Coral Sea of TBDs on deck of Lexington with twin defensive gun mounts.
Some of the aces of the Flying Tigers flew this aircraft. Tex Hill for one. Several other TBD pilots from Torpedo Three of the USS Saratoga would turn up in China as well . There is a picture of Hill’s TBD on pages 62 and 74 of his autobiography “Tex Hill - Flying Tiger”.
Fascinating, thanks for the info.
The TBD as a plane was far better than it was given credit for. It was easily on par with the Japanese carrier bomber at it's time. The main failing was as it's use as a torpedo bomber, but this was almost entirely due to the torpedo itself. While the TBF was obviously better, the TBD was a perfectly good aircraft for it's time.
I am so excited for them to raise those nearly perfectly preserved ones from the depths where Lexington sank. Along with Butch O’Hare’s F4F!
The story of this aircraft really has a lot of parallels with the Fairey Battle. Lists of best and worst always interest me although I usually don't agree with the assessments. The difference between success and failure has so many variables attached to it. Best and worst lists are really for casual historians and a gateway to generate interest rather than be taken too seriously. I enjoyed your video. I thought it very detailed, balanced and well presented.
An EXCELLENT video! Well researched...well presented. Another reason you are the aviation equivalent of Drach's naval channel.
I like the subtitle: “Martyr of Midway”
Remember picking this 1/48 monogram model at Kmart back when I was a kid after I saw Midway for the first time on tv. I loved the prewar paint scheme but ended up doing the Midway era version.
Same! I still have it on a shelf.
I wish model companies would revisit this aircraft some day
Great video! This was a very comprehensive video on the TBD. I learned a whole bunch of history from the comment section regarding Midway too. Overall excellent experience and explanation.
The story of the battle shows that these bombers were all shot out of the sky NOT because they were obsolete, but because they did not have a fighter escort to protect them... the nature of all torpedoes in that era was that the bomber had to fly straight and level to allow the torpedoes gyroscopes settle down to be able to steer the torpedo to its target... this made these bombers easy kills for defending aircraft and AA guns...
47:44 This picture was featured in an issue of the Flight Journal magazine which had an article on the story of Lloyd Childers, the only backseater of a TBD squadron to survive Midway, whose TBD was forced to ditch due to running out of fuel.
In the words of author Richard Worth the TBD “thrilled the fleet with its modern features in 1938. It then bypassed obsolescence and hurtled straight into paleontology.” A fine aircraft overtaken by frenetic improvements in essentially all aspects of aeronautical science. Regardless, it will always be remembered because of the immeasurable courage and devotion of its crews.
From what I understand about the torpedo's, was the nose section would collapse or crush, this causing the firing pin to miss-align. So no boom. Albert Einstein was actually consulted and he figured out a simple fix. Reinforce the nose section of the torpedo. Which they didn't do. Go figure. We should have asked the British for help.
This is the most detailed description of the torpedo attack at Midway that I've heard. Thank you for awesome work!
This really demonstrates the massive technological advancements in 10 years from 1930-40. From most advanced to almost obsolete in 10 years.
It was not until 1944 before the US had developed a reliable torpedo previous testing had shown that the torpedo seemed to travel at a depth that was too deep and the gyroscope also had problems keeping it on course
The detonator was a disaster as well. Neither the magnetic nor the contact triggers were even close to reliable.
😢 --- what a moving story -- I feel so badly for the men who didn't get enough training -- who hadn't had a chance to practice enough with the bombs -- for the awful Mark 13 performance in general... they helped save the battle of Midway. This was fascinating and excellent. Thank you!
Those interested in reading a Japanese pilot's account of the battle should read, 'The Miraculous Torpedo Squadron', the autobiography of Juzo Mori, an IJN torpedo bomber pilot. Only recently translated into English it is a must read for students of the Pacific War.
That float plane looked good
Personally, think it's a valid question to ask- how many combat aircraft designed & built in the 1934-1935 timeframe were still combat effective by mid 1942? Pretty sure it's a short list... TBD was fairly effective in the Coral Sea, but Midway showed just how vulnerable it really was
The Hurricane was used until 1944 albeit latterly as a fighter bomber
While it's sad that the TBD Devastator squadrons took enormous losses (to the point of being almost totally wiped out), they did clear the way for the SBD Dauntless squadrons to rain down hell from above almost unchallenged.
Naming the squadrons with the same number as the carrier they were meant to serve on, seemed like a good idea. It didn't really work well once the war started, it was abandoned.
It was not a bad aircraft. It just didn't have the 1,200hp Pratt and Whitney on it, rather than the abjectly underpowered 900hp it was equipped with, and never upgraded.
The attack formation of the USN is mainly at fault for the Devastators at Midway. The Fleet Air Arm did better with attacking from all directions at the same time. Like the Swordfish practiced. It dispersed AA fire and from fighters. They couldn't get all of them so easily.
Like the Fairy Battle and a whole host of early single engine monoplane attack aircraft looked fantastic in 1936 but 3 to 5 years later you are in a sitting duck
They helped to keep Nagumo too busy to launch anything or receive CAP fighters for long enough to prevent timely rearming while refueling and arming CAP fighters. IOW they ran out the clock on Nagumo until the Enterprise and Yorktown's SBD aircrews were able to exploit CAP fighters either being rearmed and refueled or engaged and target fixated elsewhere from their picket duty. It was a very costly factor for TBD-1 Aircrews but an essential factor of circumstance to the outcome at Midway.
You could say they all got "devastated".
"Slow clap"
That was pretty "devastating" you could say
YAY! Your videos are awesome. This is a nice surprise this morning. Thanks!
It wasn't bad.During the battle of the Coral Sea ( overshadowed by Midway and just as important) the TBD's with escort performed admirably. It's unfair that people seem to forget that the supposed 'superior' Avengers faired just as badly at Midway without escorts. It was just a design of it's time. The much vaunted Dauntless was slaughtered by Japanese fighters during the later battles of Guadalcanal even with escort. Why? Once again because it was a design of it's time and obsolete against later fighters. The Navy and Marines just used what they had because they had nothing better.
The entire torpedo run concept was bad. It didn't matter if it was the Allies or the Axis making the runs the casualties were always high. Dive bombers come in higher and then dive steeply making a fast attack run with momentum on their side. Torpedo bombers come in low, slow and on a predictable flight path. It was nearly suicide.
@@JD_79 while this is true for some aircraft, fast and rugged aircraft such as the Beaufighter and Avenger could do the job better because of the flying tail and impact rigg developed and fitted to the front and rear of the torpedo and changes to the tactics employed. High speed dive from altitude followed by a 200 feet pullout, jinking attack run and last-minute level release within a mile of the target followed by a random jinking low level and high speed escape. The torpedoes would glide into the water and the rigging would break away, allowing the torpedo to run at the target without needing the dot feet attack run by the launch aircraft. British and Commonwealth Units continued to use torpedoes until the end of the war.
Highly likely Midway would have gone very differently if not for the events of the Coral Sea operation.
The Devastator was as modern as any in service with many nations and better than most. An uncoordinated attack never works well.
I wonder how it would have fared in British service as compared to the Swordfish?
The real problem with the TBD-1 was that it wasn't updated to a TBD-2. The Navy had already put out requests for an improved torpedo bomber. The PW had already created more powerful variants of the Twin Wasp. Going from 900 HP up to 1200 HP would have helped the TBD a lot. Moving to M2s and self-sealing fuel tanks would have made a big difference. But that being said the TBD was the second-best carrier torpedo bomber at the start of the war. The much-beloved Swordfish would have faired far worse than the TBD-1 at the hands of the Japanese.
I don't know if it's possible for Swordfish faired far worse.
Exactly; the much vaunted reputations of certain attack aircraft are helped by growing Allied air superiority.
Arguably for the Swordfish but remember: At least the Swordfish flew from carriers that were armoured.
He covered why it would have taken far more than just an engine upgrade to make a viable upgrade to the TBD1 in the video. He said they looked at the more powerful engine, but all the newer more powerful twin wasp variants were already allocated to other planes being developed. They also determined that it would need more than just a better engine, the airframe needed cleaning up aerodynamically, and the partially exposed torpedo caused too much drag. A 30% increase in engine power won't give you an automatic 30% increase in speed or load carrying capability. With extra speed comes extra drag, and the speed/drag ratio is not linear it's exponential. If the airframe is already "dirty" you're losing right from the start. So it was determined that a complete redesign was needed, so they put it all up to competitive tender and the Grumman design got the nod.
@@emjackson2289 Im confused what armored flight decks has to do with how the Swordfish would’ve done in the pacific, but if you’re implying it makes a carrier superior that’s just wrong. US Carriers didn’t have armored flight decks because armor is heavy, and wooden decks allowed for rafter space to hang extra airframes. Moreover the thinking behind armored flight decks carriers for the RN was because they would be predominantly operating within range of land based bombers with heavier ordinance, whereas the US and Japanese didn’t expect that in the Pacific. Different theaters and doctrines dictate different designs but the US carriers had much more offensive capabilities because they could carry more aircraft.
Great analysis! Really informative. I recall the moderate success at Coral Sea caused Japanese commanders to perceive the TBD as a greater threat than it actually was at Midway which contributed to the exposure of the carriers to dive bombers. Excellent work!
Immortalized in the 1976 and 2019 “Midway” movies.
Well done - this was a thorough and very fair-handed documentary on a thoroughly maligned aircraft. Nice to see it reappraised without hyperbole. First-class research too. Subbed.
Thank you for this excellent video on the Douglas Devastator. It is comprehensive. The rare pictures are fascinating. I've never seen them before, nor did I know that a floatplane version of this plane was considered. Your information about VT-8 and the poor performance of the MK 13 torpedo added useful context . My Ww2 Veteran father regarded the MK 13 torpedo failure as a scandal of the war. The VT-8 men were genuine heroes who opened the way for the dive bombers. There is a campground in our area named in Waldron's honor. VT-8 should never be forgotten.
43:44 - The Hornet strike group weren’t lost, they were specifically looking for a second carrier group as Nimitz & Fletcher assumed the Japanese carriers were in two groups of two, not one group of four. Waldron said horseshit to that I know where they are, and mutineered TB-8 on the wing, leaving his fighter cover behind. In the after-action no one wanted to court-martial a commander who’d found the enemy against orders and flown into the heart of them with no cover. Waldron got the Navy Cross instead. Later it turned out flying TB-8 in unescorted (& TB-6 arriving behind them) had delayed the Japanese strikes on the American carriers. Weirdly the chaotic nature of the way the TBDs arrived played hell with the Japanese command. With the rest of their fleet at the bottom of Perl Harbor a pyrrhic victory at Midway, one with the loss of all carriers, would have been worthless to America in 1942. [This is information from Jon Parshall (co-author Shattered Sword) as Drachinifel viewers will know 😉
Waldron had even optimized his TBDs as much as he could to offset their weaknesses: not carrying the radioman/bombardier to save weight, fitting them with flexible twin gun mounts 'borrowed' from SBDs to replace the single rear Browning... but even though, that wasn't enough to even the odds. 😮💨
Nimitz and Fletcher didn't assume the Japanese would be operating their carriers in two groups, it's what they were told the Japanese would do. It was one of the few things Hypo got wrong at Midway.
Typical no mention of LCDR Waldron's airborne mutiny (see Mrazek's "A Dawn Like Thunder"), probably the most difficult decision ever made by a Naval Aviator? Shameful cover up by Flag Officers and Ring (CAG) afterwards, resulting in fellow Aviators being left adrift in their rafts. There were many crucial events, but absent LCDR Waldron's mutiny, we probably lose. Ring got the Spartan’s curse: “May you live forever”, but it's an important lesson for future participants.
Thanks for covering this aircraft. I appreciate the details you are providing.
The legend that the combat air patrol was distracted by the torpedo bombers is a myth. The dive bombers arrived significantly later. They approached from the direction of the sun and couldn’t be seen.
Excellent addition to this aircrafts history & the why torpedo bombers failed at Midway.
Thank you for this excellent piece on a plane I've been interested in for a long time, and agree that it gets a tough rap though perhaps understandably so. Those pilots and crews at Midway were amazingly courageous. I am thankful for them.
Very well done and presenting very fair and balanced history of TBD which is often treated very dishonestly, thank you.
Battle of Milne Bay also needs to be mentioned The Japanese did invade southern PNG near Port Moresby but were defeated by Australian forces It was the first substantial and decisive allied victory of the Pacific war
Aussies and the US engineering battalion that was there.
Six out of Forty one , the Zero's in their swarms gives you something to think about , Good vid Rex.
So the Devastator was less a bad design than an obsolete one. I suppose if the carriers still had F3F fighters they would have fared as poorly.
Ha! when you said a bi-plane was totally outdated, I thought , please sir! Swordfish! Probably more accurately , if the TBD had beed fitted with British torpedoes and had ASV radar, they could have also been a night flying plane
The Devastator absolutely does not deserve to be classified among the worst aircraft of WWII. Neither were some of the others like the Brewster Buffalo, Boulton Paul Defiant, or the Fairey Battle. Most have been let down to factors outside of its design, be it obsolescence due to the (very) rapid developments at the time, crappy weapon systems like the mk.XIII torpedo, simply being forced into a role it wasn't designed to like the Battle and Defiant, or simply those higher up in the chain of command refusing to listen to advice from those actually flying the aircraft and maintaining the original strategies. In the case of the mk.XIII and the naval mk.XIV torpedoes the general in charge of weapon procurement was deeply involved in developing the triggers of those torpedoes and likely saw it as a personal slight when the functioning was criticised and refused to believe there was a problem. When submariners started to modify the torpedoes themselves to improve the functionality the command came down that doing so was a court-martial offense. Only after performing (illegal) tests and reporting the results to higher echelons - effectively breaking the chain of command and going over the general's head - action was taken to redesign the torpedoes. By that time hundreds of submariners and aviators had lost their lives going into combat with defective weapons.
General's ego kills lots of men. Always has and still does
My grandfather was one of the survivors of VT-6, and was the recipient of the “trigger happy Allied defensive fighters”. enthusiasm. It was not a good day. In the photo of the unit, he is standing third from the left.
The Devastator was modern compared to a Fairey Swordfish. The problem was crappy torpedoes.
There are also accounts of TBDs struggling to climb high enough to fly through mountain passes in New Guinea.
While this is true, the Wildcat and Dauntless formations also had trouble getting over the Owen Stanley Range due to max fuel and bomb/ torpedo load for max range during this mission. Poor mission planning, navigation and the unstable and quickly changing weather were the determining factor on this mission, not the aircraft or crew.
Thanks! Good point. 🙂 I also forgot how tall the Owen Stanleys are.
It really makes you wonder; if the Great Depression didn't happen, how would aircraft development have looked by the 1940s? It really seems like biplanes stuck around till the 30s because of governmental money issues. Perhaps we would have seen the last half of WWII being the first jet battles?
Please make a video of the historically most tragic floatplane conversions. That sounds fun.
The TBD was obsolescent, nearing replacement, when WW2 came. In terms of IJN contemporaries, the closest in time would have been the A5M "Claude". Except for the VT3-VF3 coordination, Midway was a cluster-F for the USN. However, the chaotic serial attack by the VTs had the effect of keeping IJN fighters', AA crews', and lookouts' attention focused at low altitude (with adequate warning, the Zeroes had the climb rate to attack the SBDs, but IJN tunnel vision). Coral Sea was an example of what could be done with TBDs in a somewhat coordinated attack, and ironically, some of Shoho's fighters were A5Ms.
Amazing video as usual!! Really really liking the 50min format too!
Gay was NOT the only survivor,!!!! I need more people to talk about how Capt Albert Kyle “Burt” Earnest and his gunner survived the slaughter that day. I need his memory to be kept alive as well. :(
Aviation progressed so fast it was like buying a computer, as soon as you used it it was outdated
One of my favorite planes in War Thunder. Yeah, I know, I know. I just like the way it looks.
Rex your content is amazing and it keeps getting better with every video. You’re becoming the Drachinifel of aviation. I can watch your videos for hours. Keep up the fantastic work.
kind of surprised you didn't take teh opportunity to show pics of the Lexington Devastator at the bottom of the ocean
The devastators only tragedy was midway ,it did ok work in the early carrier raids and at the battle of coral sea.
Thanks for a great overview.
Excellent exposé. Lots of good detail, explanation and analysis.
When it came to midway; a blown rendezvous in a coordinated attack means someone is uncovered. Like a fighter squadron is an hour late because of weather at the base. Somebody pays.
That float version is so beautiful.
Okay, now I have binge watched all videos on the channel and I can't wait for a new one. This addiction has, so far, only happened once before. Kudos mate. You rock.
I was at a lecture where the presenter was particularly critical of combat capability of the Brewster Buffalo. I asked him to name one Allied aircraft in production 1939/40 that wouldn't have been chased out of the sky by the Zero through to the second half of 1942. He said the F4F was better. I said not one Allied aircraft could dogfight with the Zero, and everyone who did, in every aircraft available, failed. He said the F4F was mastering the Zero over Guadalcanal. I told him that by the second half of 1942, Allied forces had learned to use their superior dive and high speed maneuverability to _avoid dogfights_ and that it wasn't fair to label the F2A as incapable when it was the pilots flying it were using bad tactics.
I bet you got a C- for that?
You’re right, but he missed an easy way to slap you down. The Spitfires based in Darwin could take on the Zero successfully at that time, but their short range meant the Zero could run away from them at top speed , the Spitfire’s short range making it impossible for them to pursue beyond coastal defence areas. They lacked any Pacific offensive impact as not enough Spitfires were deployed East at that time due to defence of Britain and their weak undercarriage made them poor carrier aircraft.
@@MsZeeZed I didn't miss anything. The Spitfires couldn't take the Zero in a dogfight either.
@@mikehipperson No grade. It was a fulfillment lecture.
Awesome video, keep up the great work!
This was always a favourite airfix kit of mine so always had a soft spot for it. Great box art, folding wings, torpedo and a great colour scheme.