When talking about "What-If?" aircraft, one that is often overlooked may in fact be one of the biggest what-ifs going - the Fairey Delta 2.
(Advertising disclaimer: This video was made with the assistance of the Fleet Air Arm Museum. I received no monetary compensation and any views expressed are my own and not those of the FAAM.)
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12:33 when even the french are calling you "clumsy and bureaucractic" ...you know you are in trouble.
that's funny
🤣
Too right!
I'm French and your comment made my day.
Super-sonic with neither afterburner nor area-ruling the fuselage is impressive.
Eyeball is suggesting it (perhaps accidentally) didn’t violate area rule as badly as the F-102 Delta Dagger - it is a little more swole further forward, aft of cockpit and around intakes a little less so a bit further aft as the wingspan increases
Rolls-Royce made some truly enviable engines back in the day. SAAB and Volvo were quietly furious that RR refused any good-faith or honest license production agreements with them. Weird how the Americans were always available for business that British companies missed...
I’m not sure if a non area rule aircraft will go supersonic .. ?
@@stephenrickstrew7237 It does, but needs much more engine power to overcome the extra transsonic drag, that ugly F35 certainly doesn't use area rule, yet it goes supersonic, with enough thrust. I would guess they perhaps unknowingly used area rule by testing different aircraft shapes in supersonic wind tunnel?
The OP and the first reply are so in line with what I was thinking that I can only assume they were posted by splinter personalities that take over when I black out.
"Delta 2 could have been a british Mirage..." *Angry french rumbles* "...which is arguably the finest multirole aircraft of the cold war." Well played, Mr. Nash. Well played.
seems like the Navies moved on because of sudden changes of crosswinds across the deck in a landing pattern.
@@moss8448 the Delta 2 wasn't intended to be a naval fighter. It's purpose was to be a delta winged supersonic fighter for the RAF.
@@grahamepigney8565 do remember reading books about Navy test pilots and they (the Navy) were big on Delta wings in the `50's & `60's.
@@moss8448 that would be quite weird since the main drawback of deltas is the high approach speed on landing. An issue which was only solved by the Rafale, through combination of mobile canards and fly-by-wire.
Louise, not with the Mirage 2000 already?
Dassault was right too, we British are outstanding at coming up with new innovative ideas, and then either doing nothing with it whatsoever, or "giving it away" to someone else who makes a fortune off it and we get next to nothing. There's so many things in history we didn't capitalise on I don't even need to give examples, since most people can probably think of at least one themselves.
.... of which the jet engine is probably the biggest give-away of all time :(
" we British are outstanding at coming up with new innovative ideas, and then either doing nothing with it whatsoever, or "giving it away" to someone else who makes a fortune off it and we get next to nothing. " The French say the same about themselves!!
Totally agree,When you read why its staggering to find a lot of it came from the 'old guard' who cant see the future.Just look how much trouble Frank Whittle had trying to get money for the jet engine because of old boy Toffs with zero vision.It happened over and over again in British history.
The atomic bomb was another example of that. It started with the British "Tube Alloys" program, which was later folded into the American "Manhattan Project."
@@RobSchofield Closely or even equal to the cavity magnetron which made centimetric radar viable.
Ed I have to agree with your statement. The biggest obstacle to the British aviation industry had has is the government. I've always admired it for it's imagination, design and development. But the government feels like if you're trying to sprint a 100 meters with a 50lb ball around your ankle.
Eh. Not like the aviation industry companies were paragons themselves mate. Ties with government were rife - look up Lord Nuffield & Beaverbrook as examples.
@HighHopesBass Lord Nuffield, aka William Morris. You know, the bloke who made Castle Bromwich the main aircraft factory for Supermarine Spitfires in 1938 together with Austin. They also did something with automobiles, I think.
How the British government kicked the British aircraft industry in the nuts, episode xxxxxxxx. Great video
Re the brief reference to the TSR 2: I worked for a British aerospace company 30 odd years ago alongside engineers who had worked on the TSR 2. I mentioned it out loud once; I didn't mention it out out loud again. The bitterness was off the scale. Similarly on business trips to Canada, re the Arrow...
My father was in the RCAF at the time the Arrow was being flight tested and, on his way home to visit his parents while he was on leave, stopped and watched one of the test flights for about 15-20 minutes. He said he had seen nothing like it before or since. The bitterness towards the Conservatives after they cancelled the Arrow was such that a large percentage of military personnel wouldn't vote Conservative in the federal elections for _decades_ afterwards.
@@blackenedmagic888…so sad we missed out on so many wonderful planes…..Conservatives and Labour as bad as each other……I just think we could and should have been the cutting edge in aeroplanes for the next 70 years…….but no…..respect to all who gave us such incredible planes….hey ho…..
first thing I noticed about the TSR 2 is it looks like the North American A-5 Vigilante
Duncan Sandys was to British aviation what Beeching was to British railways. Amazing how so much damage was done by so few!
Nice shout out for the FAA Museum :) Love how they have recreated a working flight deck and the simulated helicopter ride to the 'carrier' - definitely one of my favourites. Didn't realise I've seen both Delta 2's in person, d'oh
Now as then our UK government should hang its head in shame for what they have done to Britian and its industry.
The British economy was hanging on a thread after WWII. There were hard choices that had to be made.
Even more impressive that it achieved this performance with half the power of a BAC Lightning.
The Delta 2 was around a third of the weight of an English Electric Lightning so the power/weight ratios are in the Lightning's favour.
@@grahamepigney8565 I think you in the favour of the Delta as you say 1/3 the weight but 1/2 the power. However drag is only partially a function of weight. The lightning achieved its impressive performance because in part because it had a low frontal area through its staggered engines. Effectively putting two engines in 3/4 the frontal area of the two engines.
Marcel Dassault took is name from the « nom de guerre » of his brother Darius Paul Bloch who was active in the French Resistance during WWII. The code name was « Chardasso » from « char d’assaut » which became simply « Dassault » (the double « ss » is to be pronounced like, you guessed it, in « assault » not like a « z » as in « zero », the « l » is not pronounced). Marcel Bloch built military airplanes before the war under his real name. He changed it to Dassault after the war.
Bloch was a marked-for-extermination name.
Yes, that Z in the middle was bothering me too.
A native English speaker should just say "dasso".
i believe the french cannot change their names, once registered- that is it- and there is a list of names you must choose from. my french friends are amazed at the deed poll to change names- it is unheard of in France, and they immediately see the loopholes and fraud that can be committed. 18 years living in france- i never heard of anyone being able to change their name
@@MrTipperX If this is correct, thank you. That's how I've always pronounced it.
Good summary, although I agree Fairey were perhaps optimistic in saying they could militarise the FD2 and have it through contractor and Service trials in 18 months, but then they didn't say which 18 months they were referring to! Fun facts about Peter Twiss: having survived WWII and the rigours of test pilot life he went on to some notable film appearances. In 1960 he flew a Swordfish in 'Sink The Bismarck', having qualified on the aircraft in his time in the FAA. Then in 1963 he drove one of the chasing SPECTRE power boats in 'From Russia With Love', in the sequence where Bond and Romanova escape Yugoslavia.
With no support and refusal to use RAF airfields by the British government Fairy accepted the French offer to conduct trials in that country. This allowed the French to study a delta wing aircraft of a similar size to the one they where developing which emerged as the Mirage 3. The aircraft was also trialed in Norway and studied by the USAF for the same reason in the development of their Convair Delta Dagger and Delta Dart interceptors.
The test pilot who managed a dead stick mosewheel only landing from 30,000 feet did am amazing job!
The Fairey Delta 2 is one awesome looking aircraft!!!!
Brilliant video, the FD Delta 2 rates as one of my favourite aircraft. Great to see footage I have never seen before ty! I have had the pleasure of seeing these aircraft and can definitely recommend both museums, an excellent day out at both.
Absolutely! I visited both last summer and each has some great exhibits. The Test Flight hall at Cosford is hard to beat, given it contains the only TSR-2 and the only Bristol 188 as well as the Delta 2, the P1a and many others, but Yeovilton has some fantastic machines on display as well.
Test Flight hall is indeed amazing but the TSR-2 there is not the only example as there is another example at Duxford. Sadly though neither example is the airframe that actually flew.
Great video. I never knew there was a "droop snoot" plane before the Concorde.
For those curious on how this policy of going into missiles started, search the 1957 white paper on defense by Minister of Defense, Duncan Sandys. All this “missile can do everything” even if the Air Ministry did not expect them to be fully operational for a few more years really screwed up British defense.
they found out in hair balls, over Nam, ya had to have some good guns too and all it really was in that mix up was the big dogs wanted to try out weapon systems.
@@moss8448 It was more than just equipping fighters with missiles. For the defence of British airspace against Soviet bombers, the 1957 Defence White Paper wanted to dispense with manned aircraft entirely and rely on surface-to-air missiles alone. "A manned fighter force for this purpose will be maintained and will progressively be equipped with air-to-air missiles. These fighter aircraft will in due course be replaced by a ground-to-air guided missile system."
The 1957 Defense White Paper was a way to cut military spending while purporting to increase military effectiveness, and was used for the next 25 years to gut Great Britain's armed forces.
History is full of these predictions which turns out to be wrong. Twenty years before they were saying 'the bomber will always get through.' Turns out that was not true either.
@@luvr381 meanwhile back at the ranch good ole Uncle Sugar (for all the obvious reasons) hold my beer kinda thinkin' again for all the obvious reasons.
Again something new to learn Mr. Nash. Being impressed by both the plane and your work.
Had the pleasure of knowing Peter Twiss for a number of years, different days.
Australia bought and operated the Mirage lll and operated them till about 1988... great looking aircraft and much beloved by their pilots.. fantastic article and research... English self-defeating Beaurocrats strike again...
Simply awesome. A golden age of aviation.
Gonna call it now, Ed is the next Mark Felton 😀
Well, we can't claim that until there's a Hitler parody;
Hopefully not given the shoddy research in Mark Felton's videos.
Hah! Ed is better than Mark Felton!
Trigger warning for my fellow Canadians: mention and photo of the Avro Arrow. siiiiiigh. one of the most beautiful planes ever made.
For us in the USA it would be the yf-23 black widow. Also the Valkyrie bomber, sea dart, cammanche, a-12. So many missed opportunities.
@@billwill7383 Oddly enough, once of the USA's biggest missed opportunities was the F-20 Tigershark.
No kidding - it was almost blasphemous to mention Diefenbaker's name around my father (ex-RCAF) when I was growing up.
👍Another excellent video, thank you Ed. I remember seeing the 221 in the Yeovil museum years ago and it left quite an impression. I couldn't believe that such a modern looking fast aircraft had been designed basically in the 1950s. Not just the design of the airframe but of course the remarkable Avon engine.
When Fairey is mentioned, I tend to think of the Gannet, certainly a different aircraft - !
Wow the Concorde clearly owes a number of design features to this lovely little plane.
Didn't they modify one of the Fairey FD-2's to the BAC 221 test plane, which tested the wing design of the Concorde?
@@Sacto1654 That is what the video said!
Must admit the Mirage connection had never occurred to me so thanks for that Ed! Think I'd always known of these as purely test flight aircraft that did a couple of speed records then disappeared, and I didn't know they continued the flight programme in France.
Excellent and informative video Ed! Very good!
Yet another excellent, engaging, and informative presentation - kudos, Mr. Nash !
I knew about the Delta 2 and remember pictures of it at the time.. I hadn't realised about it going to France and data supplying information for Dassault. Governments of both colours knew how to destroy an aircraft industry as they knew how to destroy railways.
Neat and tidy video. Well done Ed.
Thanks Ed. This is my new favorite plane. Absolutely stunning.
Outstanding video! I really enjoy your channel!
And the Miles M52 could have broken the sound barrier with a jet before the Americans did with a rocket-plane. How about the Hawker P1154 ?
That was truly *excellent*! I would agree with your assessment of the quality of the collection at Yeovilton: they have really put an excellent story together in one of the best museums in the country, and it's worth every penny to visit. Although it's off topic, the Tank Museum in Bovington (not very far south) is of similar quality. I am increasingly impressed by this channel - keep it up! The research, writing, and presentation is superb. Onward!
Thank you for the video, wow, amazing shade of blue paint!
I can confirm the FAA museum in Yeovil is a great day out, there are so many weird 50s-60s British prototypes in there it's like finding yourself in a Gerry Anderson Tracey Island theme park. (and note that the Haynes Motor museum, also well worth a visit, is only a short drive away)
Successfully resisted the temptation to type: "First"! Ahem. Beautiful aircraft; a true "might-have-been"... I'm constantly amazed at how the British aviation industry was always forging ahead but was always scuppered by the Parliament. Sad. Ed, had you considered doing a video on how the aircraft of "Thunderbirds" were influenced by real aircraft? That would be so much fun to watch!
🥇 congratulations
What do you mean the thunderbirds are not real? They are a black ops service...
@@user-oo8xp2rf1k Hahahha!
@@user-oo8xp2rf1k the USAF has a flight demonstration team called the Thunderbirds
When I was a lad the FD2 won the aur speed record at over 1,100 mph. It was a purely research aircraft, and helpful in the Concorde design.
Hi Ed, another interesting point might be made for the elongated nose of the Fairy Delta 2 and the current NASA needle nosed supersonic plane being developed as a potential SST, it features an extremely long nose as a sonic boom disrupter.
Thank you for this fascinating insight into the Delta 2. As a child I had heard rumblings regarding the importance of this aircraft. My Great Uncle was Sir Richard Fairey , so this has really provided me with a great bit of family history. I have just found an original copy of “Outpacing the Sun “ on my book shelves. Ties in rather nicely , Best wishes, Mark A-T.
What a beautiful, beautiful aircraft. Pilot's say, when it looks right, it usually flies right. I would have ordered them on looks alone!.... And yes, absolutely, F.A.A. museum Yeovilton is fantastic! Thanks for another great and informative video!
Thanks for your very good work!
Thank you for posting
Never heard of this plane - thanks! Also, I bought and read your book, and it is great. I learned a lot.
My mates grandad worked on the BAC221, I remember meeting him and admiring a beautiful 1:24 scale model he was given when he retired. Great video as usual mate!
In the summer of 1956 I was on airfield crash rescue duty at RAF Leeming when the FD2 landed for a refuelling stop. I was off duty when it took off.
Tempted to say, the British had a tendency to shoot themselves in both feet when it comes to post-war aeronautical developments.
Yeah, but they really did a bang up job with their nukes, rockets and computers instead.
Monty Python's "Upper Class Twit" competition video demonstrates the issue.
Great video mate, thank you👍
Thank you Ed ,
One of your best videos!!!
Yes it does remind me a lot of the Concorde, now that was one beautiful plane.
Great video!
Love delta winged aircraft. Thank the big flyer upstairs that they weren't scrapped to make heaters and refrigerators. Only the nose lowers on the Concord unlike Delta 2. I believe the Mirage has more in common with Convair's Delta Dagger and Dart that with the Fairey.
Superb video.
Another fantastic video
Agree with the clumsy British government way of dealing with many big projects. I think most governments are prone to this like Macron's clumsy Aussie submarine deal.
This is my favourite plane of all time I’ve been lucky enough to sit in the cockpit of the last fd2 the cockpit still has the writing from the engineers in pencil written over the instruments
Very informative! Thanks! 💯
My dentist is on the Avenue Marcel Dassault lol. Great video. There is a good aircraft museum in Rochefort, next to the Ecole Gendarmerery if anyone finds themselves in this area on hols.
Well said Ed!
Hi Ed , I 've always been a fan of the Fairey Delta and living in Devon l'm only an hour away so l've been several times . My favourite (?) is the Westland Wyvern in bare metal with the magnificent RR Eagle power unit . Although l find all of the aircraft magnificent in their engineering . Thanks Ed.
I recall interviews with Peter twist with a recording of the 50th anniversary of the farnborough air show , he said back then “ that your performance was on the grass section on front of the audience and you can fly as low as you want , and the press were allowed to be on the grass to take photos , and some would take the photos , drop the camera and fall down on the grass passing out!” , this was when he was demonstrating the fairey delta 2
Nice video of an interesting prototype.
The British had a tone of interesting aircraft. I feel that really would have put them so far ahead of the game but got let down by its own government
Just like Canada's Avro Arrow
What's new?! It is the same problem even today!
@@azzajames7661 i.e. 'corruption'
The UK had a variety of designs that were essentially testbeds for a range of ideas that never went anywhere or, are largely forgotten. The English Electric Lightning was one of the few exceptions being developed from a testbed. It's quite and interesting subject in itself. Was the Vulcan a development of a Barnes Wallis idea? Not certain but Wallis was definitely looking at the flying wing concept for some ime.
Dear Mr. Nash. Thank you for a (once again) valuable contribution to aerospace lore. The incredible stupidity and lack of foresightedness exhibited by British politicians is alas a phenomenon not altogether unknown in other countries. The combination of Tory stupidity, Labour socialism, and general lack of funds in post-WW2 Britain, explains a lot - but not all. One must also consider the influence of the trans-atlantic alliance. The US had no interest whatsoever in a viable aircraft industry in other countries than its own. That is the overwhelming factor behind Canadas decision to scrap the Avro Arrow project. I don't know to what extent the decision of Mr. Sandys (Churchill's son-in -law!) paper was influenced by the US, but a solid guess might be that a quid-pro-quo was engineered (presumably in the area of nuclear technology).
There are direct parallels across British Cold War projects, trying to balance an indigenous arms industry against trying to appease the "our way or the highway" Americans for the critical NATO alliance. All stemming from (in hindsight) paranoid and overblown fears of imminent Soviet attack clashing with British pride and self-imposed demands to maintain its status as a World Power. Kind of baffling and tragic in hindsight, the British arms and aerospace industry's greatest challenge was London's chronic inability to _make a decision and stick to it,_ ever falling prey to second-guessing and project revisions/bloat.
The Defence White Paper of 1957 effectively strangled military aircraft development in the UK. As such, the UK ended up buying more the then-available Blackburn Buccaneer to fulfill the RAF's interdiction mission until the Panavia Tornado became finally available in 1980. And the RAF was forced to get a modified McDonnell-Douglas Phantom until the Eurofighter Typhoon arrived in 2003.
@@Vespuchian Yes, it's funny how threats don't seem to materialise when you invest in the means to deter them. Odd, that! Defence spending always seems wasteful in the absence of a good war. Wars tend to come to those who don't prepare for them though.
Shortsighted on rhe US's part- one would logically want a very long-standing ally 2 have as sound as possible a defense industry. But the US's behavior thru WW2 quickly went from numb 2 creepy, providing its own impedimentia 2 international processes. Very very sad.
One of my favourite planes, probably because I had the Solido 1/150 scale model when I was a kid (in the early 50s). And btw, it's Dassault, rhyming with assault and not with azo. Figures, since it comes from Marcel Bloch chosen nickname for rebranding his firm after ww2 as "Les Avions d'Assault" - ie "The Assault Planes".
What a great looking aircraft.
And almost at the same time Sweden developed the SAAB 35 Draken which flew for the first time 1955. Also a delta wing design and might I say one of the most beautiful fighter jets ever built!
The Viggen was also quite a looker that lasted some thirty years' service.
I know the 221 well as I used to work at the Fleet Air Arm Museum in the late ‘90s. Interesting kite.
As an aside, but connected, Robert Calvert of the Rock Band Hawkwind, produced an album called "Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters" well worth listening to the satyrical take on the times with that aircraft and Germany.
Going by looks, I am reminded of Convair's Delta Dagger/Dart.
I saw WG777 at Cosford museum last w/e when I went to airshow. The info board said about the droop nose but I couldn't see the exact place where it moved. Having seen this video now I know from the footage.
What a beautiful plane!
The FD-2 with the Bristol 188 & the Short weird tadpole aircraft (sorry I forgot the name) were the test platforms for the Concorde.
Between U.S. bullying and British indecisiveness, nothing good could be achieved in the way of a fighter. This aircraft is an interesting surprise coming from Fairey. Clearly, they understood more about modern aircraft than their earlier history would suggest.
Maybe they learnt quickly from captured German aircraft technology? Just a thought.
@@anthonyxuereb792 I very much doubt it. Not sure that they had a supersonic delta wing fighter(Not even close)
I love this channel
l think it is a shame that Briton quite building fighter aircraft cause they were so damn good at it.....Thanks Ed Nash for your outstanding video's.....Shoe🇺🇸
If there was an ever an aircraft where the saying “if it looks good, it flies good” then this is one of those aircraft, it’s a beautiful and sleek looking aircraft.
It also reminds me of the F-102 Delta Dagger and F-106 Delta Dart...
Hi Ed!
What is most impressive is the fact that both aircraft still exist and were not involved in fatal crashes during testing.
Excellent
Sadly Ed, Your comments and those of Marcel Dassault are correct. The results of this political error have been duplicated several time in defence matters resulting in lack of exports for GB plc. Thanks for your very informative series on aviation matters.
A beautiful plane almost like a miniature Concorde. Somehow all early Cold War Era planes have a sinister stinky mean appearance of death as if every plane was to carry a nuclear bomb being it a Piper Cub or a Nimrod. I wonder what remade Swordfish would have looked like.
Or like a dart dipped in poison;-)
@@azzajames7661 Just like that.
@@sealove79able They do have a great scary shape😜
@@azzajames7661 Spot on.
Remember seeing the Fairey delta on test flights at Woodford same time as Avro Vulcan
Excellent exposition on the fate of the British aerospace industry encapsulated in the story of these two remarkable machines. I wish there was some way to knock sense into politicians...
Thanks Ed … She sure is one beautiful aircraft.. even on the ground she’s very poised … It would really take a horrible mind to cancel such a splendid plane ..yet another reason I don’t think very much of Duncan Sands ..
u tellin me this was from the same people who made the firebrand?? great video ed
Canada also had one of those Missed aircraft deals. I forget what it was called.
I see the Fairey Delta 2 is posed between the Hawker-Siddeley Kestrel and the H/S Harrier. Good company.
Fairey was absorbed into Westland Helicopters Ltd.
The Delta 2 had a much bigger potential for development than the Lighting. Too bad all the extra money was spent on the stupid idea of a backup of the backup nuclear bomber... RAF officials were probably scared that the Soviet Union would come with another superior aircraft after the MiG-15, but that wasn't the case in the end. The Lighting was pushing so hard for speed that they forgot about operational requirements. The end result was a heavy fighter with lightweight fighter range and payload. As the Mirage and Draken had proven, a single engine fighter was more than enough to counter Soviet bombers and fighter treats. But as they say, hindsight is 20/20. I can only imagine what the out come would look like, if they had dumped the Lightning and got ahead with a operational fighter version of the Delta 2. I seriously doubt the F-104 and Mirage III would had sold as much as they did. I believe the British would still be major suppliers of fighter aircraft to this day, and not in collaboration efforts.
Never cease to mourn for the TSR-2 & the CF-105. They were too superior to what the DC's red minions could muster. That's why the DC powers that be shot them down.
& don't forget the SR-177 rocket fighter.
The F104 was always going to sell despite its shortcomings - 'diplomacy' saw to that
Mirage, the "finest multi-role aircraft of the Cold War". Hmm, definitely up there in the ranking, and one could argue anything, but I'm thinking more like F-4.
Thanks.
The FAA museum is truly stunning, can't recomend it enough.
Amazing aircraft, all more remarkable given an indifferent government. Also Terribly sad as a symbol of how the UK manage to almost totally loose its legacy of advanced aircraft industry.