.223 Rem vs .300 Blackout - Are They Adequate for Deer?
Let’s face it, a lot of shots at whitetail deer in many regions come at relatively close range -100 yards and in. Let’s also agree most of us shoot lighter recoiling rifles better and more accurately - particularly helpful for smaller statured adults and youth. Oh, and if the cartridge is optimized for the AR platform, you can customize it to your heart’s content. So, let’s answer these questions. Are the .223 Rem and .300 Blackout adequate for deer and which is better? Mark Boardman and Ryan Muckenhirn head to the range to shoot gel and find out.
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If I was told that I was going on a deer hunt and max range is 100 yards and I had to pick one of these two, I would absolutely pick the 300 blackout. If the max range was anything more than 200 yards, I'm not taking either
That about summarizes it lol, neither are worth a hoot past 200 but the 300 definitely is within that
That should be printed on the box of both...stated perfectly Sir😂
Took two bucks and a doe this season with a 69 grain hollow point boat tail 5.56 at 200 yards. My friend took 3 does with a 300 aac at 150 yards. Both kill with a good shot. Just use what you have especially if you are budget oriented.
@@cajunred6804 I'd still rather have my 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor in any of those situations. I'd even rather use my 350 legend
I have had good results with 300blk at 200 yards.
I would love to see you guys test 6.5 grendel vs. 6mm arc!
6.5 vs 6 arc vs 22 grendel/ ARC 80gr penetration and drop ?
Solid breakdown on why 300BLK is superior at 100 and in 😎
6.5 grendel vs 6mm arc, that's a good match up I think
Just wanted to say that I have been blown away by Vortex customer service. Long story short i wanted to get into a bit of precision. I contacted them asking for advice because the optic world is just too much for me to understand. The value of these podcasts is what caused me to reach out for a scope recommendation. The Vortex man steered me towards the Venom for me, (Florida, flat land). But I asked about the Strike Eagle and he honestly talked me down to the Venom. I chose the Strike Eagle just to support the value they bring in the podcasts. Bought the rifle, bought the Strike Eagle. I sent a message to them that I think I'm not using the scope correctly, can you help me be better? Not only did Ryan himself call me back with in maybe 1 hr, but he spent over 30 minutes of helping me look at my marksmanship with great detail. I am a nobody. Just an average guy. That Vortex reached out to me to help me identify VERY specific things I was doing and give me ideas on how to work the optic better is unprecedented. I'm not paid by anybody. Although my wife makes a great gumbo.
Have taken multiple deer now with the 300 blk barnes combo. Phenomenal results
Having talked to Ryan on the phone about this very subject, I can most definitely state that 300 blk out is effective (Barnes for the win)
I agree on the blackout + barnes statement from experience. I would also add that the 223 + barnes is a killer as well, though I’ve only used 70 grain TSXs.
Vortex are at the top of their game. The optics are pretty good too. 😂
Need more 77gr TMK. Good video thought
ELDM and ELDX as well.
You guys rock! One of the overall best KZhead contents I see is always from Vortex Nation. Thank you
Took two bucks and a doe this season with a 69 grain hollow point boat tail 5.56 at 200 yards. My friend took 3 does with a 300 aac at 150 yards. Both kill with a good shot. Just use what you have especially if you are budget oriented.
where do ya aim?
300BLK for versatility. .223 resides in the supersonic, and most people will shoot a limited selection of projectiles for deer, no more so than 300BLK. But 300BLK gives a broader range of choices within the 110-220 grain range of projectiles, including subsonic, which is completely absent in 223. 300BLK for the win.
As far as the other categories where the .223 won - in the words of Paul Harrell - is there even enough difference to make a difference?
I also think comparing a 62 grain 223 vs a 150 grain 300blk may have been unfair, perhaps something in the 110-125 range would show some possibly different results.
I also think comparing drop and drift out at 300 when these are both 150ish hard deer cartridges is a wasted effort, bring that measurement in to the distances where these cartridges can be used on game and then see if the Paul Harrell comment of "is it enought to matter" holds true. I bet it tells that story even better
I would like to see the 300 blackout subsonic and suppressed terminal ballistics. At maybe 50, 75, 100 yards. I would like to use this setup for noise reasons from a tree stand right next to the house. It is also a crossbow stand and no real shots beyond 50 yards are even available.
I already see the Barnes on the 300 blk table. Game over
With the 300blk the issue isn't in penetration, it is retaining the little speed it has to get expansion and a wide enough wound channel. A soft constructed match bullet such as a 155gr eld match may be the ticket in 300blk. A 223 shooting heavy match bullets may perform better terminally over a wider range of distances.
@@NorthRiverGuide the Barnes 110’s are a softer alloy that expand at lower velocities. Also the BC is pretty decent due to the elongated tip. It basically expands af Vmax velocities but acts like a big boy bullet
This was the one I was waiting for. Almost as much as 300blk vs .458 SOCOM
Ballistics gell, terminal performance talk, and a Ron Popeil reference, this show has it all
Bout time good job guys!!!! Offering bonded , cup n core, and mono projectiles for the testing. Please keep doing them like this
The story to be told is the 6.5 PRC is the all around best cartridge in the 6.5 class . I’d like to challenge it with a 6.5-300 Weatherby . You guys should do a gel block test .
I swear Ryan must have stock in Barnes bullets or Copper commodities 🤣But to be fair, they're a probably the best material to make bullets out of.. Thanks for ruffling some feathers with this one. Each has it's on merits in certain applications. Just get both.
300blk is great for deer. It my go to caliber for most of my purposes. Its the all terrain tire of the mid range gun world
I like the Federal 62gr bonded for self defense rounds. A+ on the scooter entrance!
Good comparison. Thanks
I’m glad we are moving away from “ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY” and beginning to highlight how important bullet construction/energy transfer to the target is
Thank you guys so much for the great video. Not all the variables but that is too much to ask for. I really would've liked to seen the Barnes 120gr. Vor-tx bullets I got mine pushing 2400fps out of a 16" barrel with accurate 11FS powder. Those is great info. Keep the videos coming love it!!! Thank you again
I have heard the 120 tsx absolutely hammers in 300blk!
Couldn't agree more. These new copper loads really make smaller cartridges work great. I run the 62 grain TSX 556 load in my primary AR as a general purpose farm gun. I haven't taken a deer yet but I've got ever confidence it'll work.
Unless your in California why on earth would you want the pencil thin wound channels of copper bullet?
@@pizzahunter808 other than hunting pizza, what animal do you hunt and with what cartridge and loading?
@@ikocheroutdoors mostly deer and sheep some goats and pigs. Mostly 223 and 6.5cm with 73 gr eldm and 140 or 147 eldm and sometimes 162 eldx in a 7 mag.
@@pizzahunter808 And none of those small bullets expand into a much larger wound channel?
@@ikocheroutdoors they do expand into much larger wound channels.ike a football vs a pencil with copper.That's what heavy for caliber lead match bullets do. Combine that with the shootability in the 6.5 6mm or 223 for shot spotting and recoil management for follow-up shots and you have a very lethal combo no matter the target.
The buck i dumped with my 10.5" 300blk sure thought it was effective. 125 gr SST entered the chest cavity, blew up the lungs and broke the offside shoulder. He went approximately 20 yards before toppling over. Shot was taken at 70ish yards off hand in Kansas.
Great video as always, gents. I want to also vote on a 6.5G vs 6ARC video. And PLEASE, more scooter content! 😁😁😁
Adding to versatility, and you guys already touched on subsonic use for .300blk, but the efficiency of shorter barrels to velocity loss is greater going betwixt the two. Getting in and out of vehicles is a major boon for .300
you should do 6.5 grendel vs 6.8 spc vs 6 arc
How about 6.5 Grendel vs 30-30 hear me out. 1. Howa mini actions and ar’s are selling like hotcakes while lever actions continue to drastically increase in price. 2. It’s a better comparison than with 7.62x39 because the vast majority of ammo is not hunting ammo. While the grendal is far easier to acquire quality hunting bullets than the x39. 3. The Grendel has the advantage of time or accessibility over other “AR” cartridges. 4. It is in a similar energy class. -1. If you guys wanna do 30-30 vs 300 hammr’ that would be fine to, especially since that was Wilson combat’s benchmark when they developed it. It would be neat to see how it actually stands up.
That's all quite fantastic, but wrong video...
@@Shoop... I heard “fantastic” thanks.
People don’t respect the terminal performance of 300 blackout enough…
It seems to be very load dependent. Those light copper loads seem to to awesome, while the heavy sub loads appear to be more of a remote hole-punch. They don't have the energy for expansion. The 110 gr varmint round goes pretty hard too, or at least it is good at what it is made for.
@joshuaprice4891 look at Discreet Ballistics, Makers, and Cavity Back solid coppers. All 3 will expand down to 750fps and expansion is from .9 to 1 inch, 3X caliber. I hunt with 125gr Makers that expand over 2X caliber expansion and looks like a broadhead went through the muscle.
Yeah I agree, the heavy sub loads aren’t all bad but they just perform like a pistol round.
@phild9813 I would agree with the fmj projectiles. The solid copper expanders I would compare to broadhead with more mv and energy.
Lol terminal performance of a cartridge? It's the bullet that kills not the cartridge. Pick the right bullet and keep it above min expansion velocity and you are gtg.
Also look at the 6 Max. Unreal performance
I know these videos are short-ish and don't dive really deep, but the metrics you have set up here would have had 22lr beating 300blk using your scoring system. Maybe start using a number system? 1-3, 1-5, then add up scores?
Took 3 whitetail this year with a 300 blk using 150 gr Federal Powershok. Last one was a doe at 175 yards. She ran about 20 yards. If you're hunting in the southeast a 300 blk is a sweet round.
223 DRT 79 grain. I’ve got plenty in the freezer if you question if they are enough. Both went about 3 steps
Another Great Video Guys 💯💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Love this VS series! 300 blk vs 7.62x39 would have been cool. Would also love to see some ballistic “equals” or close go head to head like 22 CM vs 22-250, 6 ARC vs 6.5 Grendel, 6 CM vs 243, 6.5 CM vs 7-08, 6.5 PRC vs 270, 7 mag vs 300 win mag, 7 PRC VS 300 WSM, etc. Also would love to see some improved cartridges as well.
22 arc vs 22-250 and 22 creed vs 220 swift. Or maybe a 3 way between 22arc, 22creed and 22-250! 300 blk vs 30-30win.
@@jamesgardner4126 thought about the 300 blk vs 30-30 but I think the 30-30 would run away it as a “deer cartridge”. But 350 Legend, 458 Socom, 450 BM would all be good vs 30-30 IMO.
Shoot 208 grain subsonic hornady black and the 300 black out was a 300 whisper its been around a long time exceptional purpose built .
I have deer and antelope in my freezer that both say, "Either is Fine"😊
Taken deer with both, most with .300blk. Using 110 grain Barnes tac tx in the blackout is the most effective combination.
I’d like to see a comparison of 77gr 223 Vs 190gr .300blkout At 75yrds, which is probably the average distance for most white tails harvested.. in Texas.. great video
Shootability: Both are well below the recoil which the average hunter can tolerate . Accesability: The .223 is more accessible, but only if you include all the 55gr fmj practice ammo. When you narrow the choices to what you might hunt deer with the choices drop quickly. Versatility: This comparison is focused on the question of "Are they Adequate for deer" not "Most versatile cartridge. Drop and Drift: When considering the retained energy, and likelihood of getting an exit wound, i would never choose to use either of these bullets at 300yrds. To be honest, i would limit myself to around 100-125yrds and at this distance drop and drift would be very similar between these two cartridges. Terminal Performance: Its difficult to argue against the fact the 300 Blkout provided a larger temporary and permanent wound cavity. You can consider categories which can stack the odds in the favor of one cartridge vs another, but terminal performance is the golden rule.
🤭 I Love The Controversy That Your Creating! 🤗 I Feel Like A "Proud Father" Right Now!!! 😂
110gr Barnes is magic on whitetails within the proper yardages. My small buck this last season was a 70yd shot and it liquified his lungs and ruined the heart without a direct hit on it. If I'm hunting within 200 yards I might never use anything else.
What's your recommendation for a dear scope for 300 Blackout?
What’s the background music at the end. Love it.
Love the videos. The accessibility/versatility comparison in the context of hunting was next to pointless; .223 having 87 offerings in a span of like 40 grains doesn't mean anything when 90%+ of them are for varmints.
Can we compare 30-30 to the 300AAC
Im VERY interested in this debate since I can't use my 243 or rifled barrel 20ga this season (I had cervical fusion 6 weeks ago). Luckily doc says I can use my Husband's 300 Blackout & my greenfield is max 110 yards....now if I can just persuade the swamp donkeys to stroll out onto the greenfield (can't climb my ladder stands by the creek either😑). Thanks for this video, I was a lil apprehensive about the 300 Blackout, afraid I wouldn't be able to drop em like my rifle or sg.
Good comparison here! I still wish it was easier to find supersonic ammo for the 300
I wish my LGS waa stocked like yours. They have 20+ super loads and 2 sub loads. If you're having an issue finding supers then you're either looking in the wrong spot or your LGS is stocking the right stuff.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz they just don't stock much 300 blackout at all here. Lots of .308, 30-06, .270, and several random dangerous game cartridges 😂
Before i watch.... yes shot placement and tip style
My primary beef with 300aac is that the velocity is SOOOO slow, even with 16inch barrels. The people shooting deer with subs from a 8” barrel trying to tell you that it’s giving them rifle performance just blow my mind… it’s a glorified 45acp at that point.
I love the scooters!
My daughter got her first deer with 300blk 110 Barnes. Massive organ damage.
Took my first nilgai(300lb cow) with a 300 blackout. 120gr barnes stuck under the skin opposite side. 80 yard shot.
Subsonic vs supersonic 300blk test?
Would have liked to see a comparison with 70 grain .223 vs 110 grain 300 BLK barnes.
.22 caliber is illegal in my state. So the .300 black out automatically wins.
So you just told us what we already knew. I don't think anyone got any extra information. Except for the fact I suppose I have to concede a little bit kind of sort of. I didn't previously have any information on copper Projectiles out of 223.
Everyone compares calibers using very different bullet weights , when comparing different calibers. How does the 6.5 grendel and 300aac using 110 to 120 bullets on deer. Barns has done good by me but so has bonded what is the difference in penetration.
My only question is the effect of using short barrels on 300 blackout for the same purpose. I used the 190 sub x out of my 7.5 sbr on a coyote last year and it died, but I don't have the capabilities of ballistic gel. It would be interesting to do a comparison
There _IS_ velocity loss, but its not much in the subs. MrGunsAndGear has a 300 Blk video where he talks (and disproved the weird "300 BLK maxes out after 9 inches" myth) about 300 BLK velocities with multiple loads through multiple barrels.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz I watched that as well, which led me to that barrel choice. My deer stand only goes out to about 90 yards of effective range, so I wanted to test it out on deer with that bullet. Never got to as my deer hunt turned into a coyote hunt, but I don't believe vortex has covered sub-sonic hunting yet if my memory is correct.
6.5 grendel vs 6 arc please!
Completely off topic but when i heard "are you ready??!!" all i could think of was Korn- Blind
300 Weatherby vs 300PRC full throttle all the time every time, they would be great to see compared considering both use the same action length and bolt face, and both are big hitting 30cal cartridges
Versatility should go to 300blk. There are commercial loads from 87gr all the way to 245gr. Better out of various barrel lengths.
Good stuff. Both are good calibers to reload, but I think 300 AAC is easier and has nearly limitless options with .308 bullets; which adds to the versatility factor. Also, you mentioned it, in some states .224 or larger is required for big game hunting; so .223 is a non-starter there.
I feel like this video is very in accurate. When hunting deer. Especially with both of these calibers 100 yards should be considered the bench mark range and max range 150.. and when hunting I think the only factor that should be considered is terminal performance. If this is truly a hunting rifle I’m not worried about having the cheap / accessible bullets that are highly favored in the 223 platform. This isn’t a question on what makes the better bug out rifle. Also on the versatility aspect I think that should be a win for 300blk ability to hunt suppressed inside 50 yards plus significantly more factory loadings adequate for taking deer over 223
we need to buy more scopes so they can afford electric scooters 😂
I feel like you guys missed some of the versatility of the 300blk. There is are viable loads for deer and hog hunting on the subsonic side of the house as well, which the 223 simply cannot do. And it works great from short barrels, also something the 223 distinctly isn't very good at terminally. and as far as types/purpose of construction of bullets, I think that if you chose to consider similar construction type of bullets but in subsonic and supersonic; like otms subs and supers etc, bullets for a different purpose, the you could almost double your count for "types" of projectiles. I feel like that should at least give the 300blk a half point to match the 223. But I also think that while not ideal for maybe all varmints, certainly coyotes and like sized game could be handled by a lightly constructes 30 cal varmint bullet, albeit at shorter ranges. But if your not after the pelts, maybe just a culling operation perhaps, then it's totally viable.
No 77g SMK?
Why must you tease me! I have to wait 2 days!!!
😆 Ryan knows that 300 blk is the superior deer round. He does not want to give the win to 223 at the end of this video. He basically said if you hunt deer with any other 223 round than the one we tested, you will not kill a deer, or be ethical.
6.5 Grendel vs 6mm ARC
73 grain ELDMurder or 77 gr TMK great for big game
If you show someone what a 77gr TMK does to a large mammal at 400 yards they will either completely lose interest in most cartridge comparisons or get angry and call you a liar.
the pocket fisherman bit was great
I wish we'd check terminal performance at range.
50 bmg vs 416 barrett please!
416 Barrett is 375 cheytec
Would have liked to see tsx 70 grain barnes doing 2850 may have been able to compete better with the tsx that being said barnes 300 black is hard to beat
Depending on what loads your comparing, 300 usually out oerforms terminally at 300 by a bit of energy. Bullet drop aint an issue if you know where your round lands, like if your scope just has 1 point sure go 556 but if you hqve the elevation and windage grid of points, its a no brainer 300 will be dead on if you know where it hits. Wind effects 300 less tbh. But terminal performance is all that matters behind a skilled operator.
223 being crowned is fair but when youre looking for terminal effects you cant deny the 300 blackout had it beat. of course this all depends on selecting the right bullet for the application you intend it for
So interesting the other options that could be made from a 223 case. I'm pretty angry right now that it appears 2 comments I made about a 25-223 were removed. That kind of gatekeeping doesn't encourage people to comment or even remain subscribed. But yeah, a .257, .264, .277 could have better external ballistics than the blackout, and arguably better terminal ballistics when hitting at a higher speed.
@kurtwpg well there was the 6.8 SPC that came out before the 300 Blackout and it uses a .277 bullet. It just hasn't gained the attention it really deserves but remember the 300 Blackout is a cartridge that was created out of necessity and for a special purpose.
@@tylerdixon3290 So is the SPC. I was thinking strictly in terms of 223 parent case though. Basically we're talking about taking deer with a bare minimum of recoil, for whatever reason. Maybe somebody having a kid that wants to hit deer but a .243 is a little much. Of course, the options are endless already, 6.5 Grendel, etc.
Is Marks Printout Memorial Tree still alive? Has he been watering it?
When considering 100rd deer rifle .223: shootability , drop/drift .300blk everything else
Are we talking southern deer or large Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa Missouri Indiana deer, white tail
Why don't people ever mention the barrel length they use for 300aac?
I love you guys
Many states have a 6mm minimum for deer hunting
Should run same test with bolt versions, foot pound at 100 will look a lot better
Most cartridges in the right hands are more than capable of taking deer but in my opinion neither of these should be a first choice for deer especially over 150 yards and way too many parents are putting them in a kids hand to shoot game animals with and are loosing or wounding game. As I said this is just my opinion and personally for deer sized game I believe anything with less than 1000 ft-lbs of energy on target should not be used.
6.8 sps vs 223 vs 300bk
plenty of deer have been killed by 223 in New Zealand.
Frankly, for hunting deer, only the drop and drift and terminal performance matters. That is assuming you want to be a humane and responsible hunter.
Scoot n shoot?
I would hand the Versatility to the 300 AAC Blackout, if nothing else, the factory 120+/- all the way to Subs at 220...
How could u give versatility to the 223??? Subs plus Supers equals VERSATILITY!
If 223 went away, nobody would even notice it passing.
For only hunting yeah. But if 223 went away you can bet your ass there would be a damn near uprising all across the country
@@msquared9605 I feel like there are a lot of 223 rifle owners out there that own many rifles and upon finding zero 223 cartridges for sale, would just shrug and pick up another rifle without much more thought.
Why not cover 6arc, 6.5 grendel, 6.8 spc in this little contest? Same could be said for 350 legend, 400 legend, 450 bushmaster/ 458 socom... Don't just give up 2 options in the intermediate cartridge contest. Cover everything that will fit into an ar15 or ak47/74
I think both would work, but I would actually trust 300 blackout.
You need to just have both.
Are the highly frangible rounds really the best for hunting? Doesn’t that destroy a lot of meat compared to a more conventional hollow point?
Neither of these rounds are frangible, one is a traditional cup and core and the other is monolithic expanding copper.
something im surprised you didn't bring up is accuracy when reloading. i love my blackout but it is way more difficult to get excellent accuracy when reloading compared to the .223.
Interesting … I wonder why?
I have heard this but haven’t experienced it. Both of my 300 blks have been right at MOA with the Barnes stuff. Subs are definitely not as accurate though.
They do these with factory ammo using box posted stats. Handloading would throw most comparisons out the window for any cartridge and would be next to meaningless.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz explain yourself. why would it be meaningless?
@@kylewalton7005 because you can handload cartridges far beyond sammi specs using bullets far too light or heavy than factory offerings. Imagine looking at cars and someone comparing a Top Fuel drag car to a Honda Civic.