From A Measure of A Man (S2E9), under orders, Riker argues that Data is a machine, and thus does not deserve human rights. Earlier in the episode, Captaiin Louvois (the officer acting as judge here) summarily rules that Data is a machine and is the property of Starfleet. Picard challenges that ruling. Since Louvois doesn't have any staff aboard the Enterprise, Starfleet regulations mandate that Picard and Riker act as opposing attorneys. Riker refuses because he sees Data as a true friend. Louvois explains that this is the only way her ruling can be challenged, and that if she suspects Riker is throwing the case, she can stop the proceedings and her initial decision will stand. So Riker reluctantly agrees to aggressively prosecute his friend.
You can tell how hard this hit Riker because for the rest of the series he is on a personal quest to turn on every sentient being he comes across.
i want you to know to that this one is the peak of commedy and i'm glad to have scrolled to see this comment
Hah.
😅
Kirk must've had an android at some point too in that case.
@@SBaby TOS s3e19 Requiem for Methuselah
Im so glad picard used the scientific term. "Mega-strength".
That made me smile too
Hahahahahahah I kinda freaked when I heard that tbh
Thank you for your Mega-comment
The script actually said meta-human strength.
Does Data have a “hyper alloy combat chassis” like the terminator?
The fact that riker never stops referring to him as "commander" is great
That sign of respect for Data shows how Riker hates having to do this, but it is his duty, and so he must do it to the best of his ability.
Even though he referred to Data as "It" . about 99% of time. You over looked that.
@@benjaminoechsli1941 If your duty to your position in an organisation would lead you to do the wrong thing then you must refuse.
@@Dante-vf4sd I agree in principle, but Riker isn't doing anything wrong here. Is it wrong for a prosecuting attorney to make their case against a defendant? No. Indeed, if they threw the case it would be a mockery of justice. That's what's happening here; Riker is the "prosecution," and like any good "lawyer" he must argue his case to the best of his abilities. That's why he calls Data "it", as Anthony pointed out; Riker must treat the android as being nothing more than a tool. To do otherwise would invalidate his case. Picard is the "defense", and makes the case for Data being more than that, a new form of life, accordingly. Both sides are weighed, and a verdict is given. Is it a perfect system? Of course not. But humans are imperfect creatures, even millennia in the future. It's the best we've got.
@@benjaminoechsli1941 I'm afraid it would be wrong for someone to contribute to a system that has the audacity to judge whether what is presented as a sentient being is such. If we replace Data with a human slave in real life and someone in Rikers position is making a case for why the slave is not a valid civilian worthy of freedom and rights it would be equally wrong as he is participating in an immoral act, neither judge nor the prosecuted have any authority to decide such things, their only responsibility is to do the right thing and treat Data with kindness and respect regardless of their own personal beliefs. When societal laws, rules and regs cross moral lines our allegiance should always be to go against those laws, rules and regs.
“...it’s strings have been cut.” You can just *hear* the absolute disgust he has for what he just did. And by the time he sat down, the confident and charming Riker was gone, replaced by a shell of a man who betrayed a dear friend. Such a good scene!
They may have well just wrote "What have I done" across his forehead. It might have actually been more subtle
@@echolalia682 If they wrote that across his forehead then there would be no need for acting.
@@echolalia682not all acting has to be hyper subtle to be good. That's not how real life emotions work either
@@echolalia682 Hey dummy, did you miss the part earlier in the episode when the Admiral made it clear that if Riker didn't prosecute to the best of his abilities, the case would have been lost? Riker didn't want to do this, he was forced to and could only hope Picard could provide an even better defense to save Data.
@@tkopp10976 I haven't seen the full episode or any Star Trek at all but I really like this one scene. But in this video and another where Picard makes his argument, I could somehow tell that the one dude (whom I gather is Riker) *really* didn't want to be doing what he's doing. I've gotten the feeling that he agrees that Data is sentient but he's only arguing against him because it's his job. Would you mind explaining the context of him hurting himself by not prosecuting? Prosecuting what? How does it hurt him, did he lose his job or something?
Riker made his best case & immediately regretted it. The end of this episode where Data goes to thank him is so moving with the line, “that act injured you, but saved me. I will not forget it.”
Especially, the way Data says it. "I will not forget it." When Rikers says to Data, "You are a wise man my friend!" Data says, "Not yet sir, but with your help I am learning!" That was so moving. Even after Data explains to Riker how he helped him in a tough situation. He encourages Riker by letting him know he is still learning from him everyday because Riker is the one who is wise.
Riker didn’t even want to do this. Data is not only his comrade, but his friend. I mean, how would you feel if your best friend was on trial and you were forced to prosecute him or her? It wouldn’t feel good, would it?
This is my favorite episode of Star Trek, no matter which series. I felt so bad for Riker. The actor is so good that he legit looks like he is about to cry after he turns Data off.
@@micfail2 Considering he's thinking, "my God I may be killing my comrade and friend."
I love this thread 😍
This would have broken Riker if he had won the argument. He was ordered to give it his all and he did almost at the cost of his soul. I have no doubt that if Picard hadn't saved the day Riker would have resigned from Starfleet.
Paul Scott how i see it he helped picard by what he did. Riker never questioned if data was consious. All he did was proof he was a machine. Wich in a way the human body is too
If Riker had won and cost Data his life, i suspect he would have resigned from starfleet the next morning, and committed suicide after either lunch or dinner. :(
Riker saved Data by being absolutely brutal in his argument.
@@mightress Very true. And that is exactely what you need in life to grow. A worthy adversary, an opponent to respect, a father to fight with to overcome your pity current self and become more.
@@mikemondano3624 Art imitates life - Life imitates art. There are no boundaries. If a work of ficition enhances your life for your good and the good of others - so be it.
The way Johnathan Frakes displayed just the slightest body language as if to say, "My God what have I done to my friend". An incredible piece of acting. Near the end of this episode the crew gather to celebrate Data's victory and Riker sits across the room. Data approaches him telling him he found no fault and held no I'll will for what Riker had done and how he still considered him one of his dearest friends.
Not just that he hold any ill will... Data thanks him, understanding that Riker did something painful to himself in order to help Data. Without Riker's role in the trial there would have been no trial and Data would have had no chance at survival.
@@junbh2the way they ran this hearing is bizarre. Probably the best episode of the series, but you kinda have to forgive them for the weird little rule they put in place for Star Trek's court system.
@@zacharyberridge7239 There was a similar episode on Star Trek Voyager with the doctor hologram trying to get the rights to his works because he wasn't legally considered a person.
@@Elly3981he’s talking about the fact that riker was forced to play prosecution. no judge in their right mind would ever set it up that way.
The part I like is where Riker apologizes to Data for removing his hand. This to me symbolizes an emotional connection between Riker and Data and validates that Data is a unique sentient life form.
WHEN YOURE ALONE WITH ANOTHRR MAN FOR SO LONG IT STARTS TO SMELL BAD
I don't think Data was offended by having his hand removed. Its not like he could feel pain.
@Elly3981 Correct, but not relevant. It shows just how human he is to his crewmates and friends. And while Data himself is not human, he seeks to learn, understand and ultimately be human himself. He's already well on the way, with the friendships he has forged.
Riker apologizes because he knows Data is a sentient and alive being. Riker says so much in the beginning of the episode where he is forced to prosecute Data. He was very concerned about humiliating Data though Data had already found out by then that Riker was ordered. I believe this really shows the connection between the two as friends and the friends they would become. With anyone else like Fajo “The Most Toys” he would’ve felt humiliated, even though he apparently can’t “feel” which Data shows time and time again he can, to not having that happen with Riker because it was well, Riker who Data knew would never seek to hurt him on purpose.
Picard: "Does bending a bar make Data a machine?" (Proceeds to bring in a species that can do the same.) "What about removing limbs?" (Brings in the species from TAS that can remove limbs.) "And finally, the off-switch." (proceeds to punch Maddox in the face.)
vypernight - “what about removing limbs?” (brings in Chewbacca from Star Wars) LOL! Han Solo: “...because droids don’t rip people’s arms off when they lose. Wookiee’s are known to do that!” Flashback moment here. 😝
YESYESYES punch Maddox in the face n knock him out cold hehe!
The off switch on humans seems to be where the neck joins the shoulder, I've personally witnessed a Vulcan science officer turn that switch on many humans. And they all go down just as quickly.
@@John_McDonnell I'd rather punch Maddox in the face hehe
Data: "I want my own command! ... With blackjack, and hookers!" Riker: "I rest my case."
There are many lifeforms that possess THE MEGA STRENGTH
loooooool
ded
Ah yes, the scientific term
The Jem'Hadar and Klingons to name a couple.
One of my favourite lines in all of Trek
I love the beginning of this scene where they start to read Data's accomplishments and at first they wanted to skip them but Picard was like no....read them all. I loved that
And later, when Captain Picard cross-examines Maddox, Picard interrupts Maddox’s list of accomplishments and commendations.
@@SamaritanPrime yep true
Same thing happened in TOS when Kirk went on trial for murder.
@@SamaritanPrime The difference is Data was on trial, Maddox, was not. The trial wasnt affected by his ability to examine Data, It was solely focused on Data being accepted as a lifeform or not. So Data's over 25 years of service does matter, while Maddox's does not.
@@Kronosfobi difference was Picard was acting as lawyer for Data, and as such had a duty to zealously defend Data's best interest. Reading Data's accomplishments out loud and skipping Maddox's is doing exactly that.
The line later in the episode by Picard is one of the greatest of the entire Star Trek Universe: "Starfleet mission is to seek out new life, and there it sits."
A great pendant to the great TOS episode with the silicone based Horta. Is Data silicone?
One of the best episodes ever, and basically they just sit around a table and talk for 45 minutes. Pay attention JJ Abrams.
this era and quality of trek is long over...
Ironic really, Considering people discard season 1 and 2 of TNG as poor
Season 1 is certainly uneven. Season 2 is/was an improvement upon the first season. Season 3 is when TNG really takes off and firmly establishes its identity.
They generally were pretty poor, though Season 2 had some high points, this one most of all, but also "A Matter of Honor" or "Elementary, Dear Data." Even after that there were plenty of clunkers in each season through the end of the show... "Force of Nature," anyone?
Fucking morons. You're comparing a TV show episode to a movie. Where were all the slow paced long court scenes in the movies? Oh yeah, the closest is the farce trial of Kirk and McCoy that was blatantly stacked against them by Chang, and the closest it got to debating moral issues was the fact that Chang gathered personal logs without permission knowing that it would catch Kirk out on the spot into incriminating himself. Shut the fuck up.
2:53 This is why I love Picard: the only reason he objects that I can think of is that removing Data's hand offends his sensibilities and violates Data's person.
Or he was going to defend that many humans and other species have artificial limbs. Basically the same objection he made about the strength.
Data is no more a person than the computer you used to make your post.
@ShinRaPresident Why would that be? The computer called Data is only 100% executing instructions that were written by another man. It has no choices, it only runs a script. Picard makes his own choices.
@@zzzzz4203 wrong. in the episode where data was sent to convince a colony established by a stranded crew that they would be destroyed if they stayed he was given no specific instructions for exactly how to accomplish the mission. The choice he came to was logical and made entirely on his own, and he destroyed the water source the colonists had created. Tell me what human told him to do that?
@ShinRaPresident You wrote: "Where Data has the ability to make choices, he does". This is 100% false. The software developer(s) who wrote the code Data executes made entirely deterministic instructions the computer called Data always executes, without deviation. There is no getting around this.
I showed this whole episode to a group of teenagers in the programming class I taught, as part of a unit on the ethics of technology. One student had a great summary of Riker's cross-examination. It's an updated version of the Turing test - the whole purpose is to show how far Data is from being human. His argument rests on the assumption that sentience is "being close enough to a normal human." The class came to the conclusion that while it was true that Data wasn't human, we had to accept the idea that humans can't determine what is/isn't sentient based just on ourselves. Not to mention, what about people with OCD, ASD, etc., who in many ways don't act/think like "normal" humans? It was one of those things that gave me a bit of hope - that kids can still learn from thoughtful, subtle, and intelligent stories like this.
Wil hated doing this to his friend, but was obligated to Star Fleet to cross examine without passion or prejudice. True example of a great officer.
My biggest complaint with this episode has always been that even if they _did_ determine that Data was "property", that doesn't mean he was _Starfleet's_ property. Since Doctor Soong was still alive at this point, that means Data would be _his_ property. Additionally, Data wasn't "installed" on a starship, he was allowed to join Starfleet, and was required to go to Starfleet Academy like any other sentient being. I doubt the food replicators had to complete the Kobayashi Maru. (Edit 5 years later to further clarify) Yes, I do know Dr. Soong was presumed deceased at this time, but the point is that if Data was anyone's property, it was the Dr.'s, his living status notwithstanding. Starfleet had no legitimate claim to ownership, unless "finders keepers, na na na boo boo" was officially added to the law books. And it's never mentioned if Starfleet made any salvage claims, which they probably couldn't since the rest of the settlement was still alive.
i'd imagine starfleet would argue data was abandoned by dr soong, they salvaged him he's theirs(playing devil's advocate their as i agree with picard argument)
They didn't salvage him though. Data choose to join star fleet. If Soong was an employee of star fleet and they commissioned him to make data then I could see star fleet having some rite of ownership over data. As it stands they don't. Data's daughter was a better example of possibly star fleet property. Data was an employee of star fleet, and he used star fleet owned materials to make his daughter.
Soong was believed to be dead so they wouldn't have the idea to return data to him
Legally, Starfleet doesn't have a leg to stand on in this, because they allowed Data to join Starfleet as if he were his own being, and held him to the same standards, practices, and protocols of any Starfleet officer candidate. In doing so, they implicitly recognized him as having the same rights, responsibilities, and privileges as any lifeform. In the American legal system, a judge would have to recognize that Starfleet has de facto already recognized Data as an independent, sentient lifeform, and to go back on it would be a violation of Starfleet's rules about treating lifeforms and against the contract of Starfleet's responsibilities toward Data. Additionally, the fact that Starfleet itself is the arbiter of the question is a conflict of interest, though that's actually addressed in the episode.
Well seeing how in Voyager they made a bunch of the mach 1 EMH work mining ore on some asteroid, star Fleets morals in regards to artificial life still needs quite a bit of work.
"Pinocchio is broken, his strings have been cut." Such a devastating line.
*"ITS strings" - even MORE brutal!
Yeah, but I'd like to see him try to say that while Data is on 😂
@@user-iu3ii8sq6t Data would probably find the analogy correct, as Pinocchio is also an artificial life form...
He called him Pinocchio when they first met in the holodeck
@MrHappyBollox you definitely won't stay until and precisely until something hits the switch again
This is a perfect example of what modern Star Trek is missing. Genuinely good and meaningful writing.
@@Mr1987Joe Sad but true for most new shows.
In other words the people writing the stories now are just useless story tellers
@@lenschwedt9646 it's just lazy now, constantly breaking character, improvising, insanity passing of as method acting, shoe horning a million sexual identities
Yeah but modern Trek tells us how evil wyty so it's the best thing ever
What “modern” Star Trek? The only Star Trek you see on TV is syndicated Star Trek. No new episode of any kind or season has aired in over 17 years. No movie in 6 years.
No matter how horrible Riker must have felt for doing that to Data, you have to commend the man for giving it everything he had, prosecuting the case to the absolute best of his ability regardless of his personal feelings or emotional stake in the case. That is true Starfleet Officer material right there. It's no wonder he gained command of his own ship later.
Actually he was threatened by the judge. If he didn't try his hardest he would of been severely punished
@@Sillysoft Doesn't matter if he was forced or not, he could have still played softball and likely gotten away with it hiding behind incompetence or ignorance, or even colluded with Picard to make sure Picard had a smoking gun to shut down the prosecutions case. But he instead chose to fulfill his obligations as an officer of Starfleet and gave it his absolute best, despite knowing what could happen if he won. His duty was to the truth, and he never faltered in that commitment. That's why he's worthy of the chair.
I don't think it was despite his personal feelings, but because of them. He was in a strange paradoxical situation, where he could help Data most by fighting most strongly against him, thus giving Picard something substantial to fight against and in the end making Picard's win stronger and clearer and more unambiguous. If Riker had phoned it in, he might not have fooled the judge and gotten away with it. And even if he had, it would have left more doubt in people's minds. A strong win from the defense against a worthy opponent was needed.
@@Sillysoft It's not just that Riker would have been punished. The judge could have declared the trial invalid and gone back to her original plan of simply declaring Data to be property.
@@Foxhound3857I respectfully disagree. Despite your narrative, Riker wasn't doing it out of obligation to his uniform; he was prosecuting well out of obligation to Data. Louvois explicitly threatened to dismiss the trial and rule summarily in favour of Maddox if she so much as suspected collusion or feigning incompetence on Riker's part. Data literally alluded to Riker taking an action that injured him but saved Data. While Riker was _that_ close to winning Maddox's case, he prosecuted knowing it was the only way to give his friend a fighting chance of not being decompiled, possibly being irreparably damaged by the procedure. There's deleted dialogue between Data and Riker where Data understood that sometimes denying one's nature is necessary for the greater good.
"And now a man will shut it off." CLICK Data goes limp. This has to be at the very least 25 years old and I find that scene pretty brutal still.
Agree
Throughout his entire presentation, Riker goes through his own personal hell: being forced to betray his conscience, his beliefs, and his friend at the same time.
@@jamesspring4610 All to avoid the judge making a summary judgement against Data.
I liked the subtle pause before he said the line. Like he knew it was a powerful statement (and demonstration) bit he almost couldn't bring himself to say or do it.
The judge is clearly of the opinion Data is simply a machine, the entire time she has what appears to be more of a scientific curiosity towards Riker's arguments than anything else... But even she looked shocked at that.
"Commander Riker, do you apologise to the transporter or holodeck before removing crucial components"? "No" "Case dismissed" 😎
Key insight.
That is why he whispered it
I'd have loved if Picard got one of the vulcan crewmen to do the nerve-pinch on riker as a response to that one
Definitely agree. That said, having heard the way Scotty or Geordie talk to their Enterprises, perhaps not 😂😂
Riker: "Hmm... Thinking back on it.. I do. I'm sorry."
800 quadrillion bits = 100 Petabytes. That's pretty substantial for long term storage. And his linear processing speed..is like an ultra fast dedicated GPU chip. Which is also impressive for a more generalized CPU, which data would more likely have. The writing holds up better than expected! Considering when this episode was written - most personal PCs had like 5MB of RAM haha.
At that time, my computer had a 10MB hard drive and 640KB of RAM.
@Them Bones thanks! I was scrolling the comments hoping someone had done the conversion.
Star trek mostly adheres to using technobabble instead of real measurements, especially when it comes to digital measurements, since they tend to age poorly very fast. So this being the exception to the rule, actually makes a lot of sense in the modern day
They have Moore's law and a calculator
@@yt.personal.identification If they were following Moore's law they would have come up with numbers that were several orders of magnitude higher, considering that it's set more than 300 years in the future yet we already have processors as powerful as the one Data supposedly contains, despite Moore's law slowing down.
Your honor, please avail yourself of his love making abilities before you judge him.
Well, he is fully functional in every way, programmed in multiple techniques, a broad variety of pleasuring.
I think she would like it a lot.
A love machine is still a machine.
ROFL. Once you've gone the color of Kabuki theater-painted department-store manikin, you never go back.
Judge: How do you turn Data on? Picard: (mutters under breath) Whisper the name 'Tasha'.
Well, he *is* fully functional in every respect...
@@floppydisksareop LOL unfortunately she & the Borg Queen took that fact with them in death ;)
AYYYYY
energicko when do they say this
oh my lord. +1
Picard: "I request a recess". "Granted" *everybody proceed to shut down, just like Data*
How random and hilarious this would be huh?
Then we'd know that Rod Serling wrote the episode.
Id be more funny if they were having a serious conversation while climbing on playground equipment..
@@theevilascotcompany9255 Twilight Zone was great.
Meanwhile on STD: "WOW, I LOVE SCIENCE, ISN'T SCIENCE GREAT!? I TOO LOVE SCIENCE."
Michael: [crying] “He *is*... [whispers] a PERSON!” [dramatic cut to Saru rolling his eyes]
I love how Webster's Dictionary still exists in the 24th century.
quite plausible. Webster's is the US equivalent of the OED. It played a big part in the establishment of US English as separate. For example it spelled "colour" as "color" and "centre" as "center", whereas the British still don't know how to spell those words to this day. lmao. :)
@@neutrino78x Not bad neutron. You would make a decent comedian with jokes like that ;-)
@@mckinleymac3452 lol
The name is actually in the public domain
historically dictionaries have always been the authority on the english language, ever since some dude got sick of memorizing 30,000 words and decided to write them the hell down.
Riker must also possess super-strength, since he was able to partially unbend the bar at 2:35 between taking it from Data and putting it on the table.
A carry-over from his time as a Q, heh.
I noticed that too! Ah, why did IMDb get rid of the forums!
Yea man... That sucks big time. You know of any decent forums, dude? IMDB 'ish? ;)
I thought Riker should've reacted to the metal getting hot from that bending.
I was just thinking about the heat factor. Would the bar not get quite hot from the energy expended to make it bend?
This scene has stuck with me throughout the decades. Reason being that Riker, though a close personal friend of Data's, is required to argue in prosecution against him. He was ordered to argue to the best of his abilities, and by gosh did he ever. Only Riker knew of Data's off-switch. Picard didn't even know. It was only due to Riker and Data being so close that Riker even knew about it. And he used it against him. A powerful scene.
You could see Riker's tears ready to come out when he sat down, it's hard to himself personally.
Yeah Riker died a LOt by the time he sat down.
actually there was a scene in an earlier episode where Data shows Dr Crusher his "off switch", he whispers to her, " wouldnt you keep it a secret also?". Anybody, with clearance, looking up Data's schematic can also find his off switch. So it wasnt exactly a secret. Thats how Riker found out during this episode.
"Reason being that Riker, though a close personal friend of Data's, is required to argue in prosecution against him." It wasn't until now that that was pointed out that I realized this creates a conflict of interest. Mind you, I don't know naval laws or how hearings work to determine whether or not picking Riker was an appropriate decision on Capt. Louvois's part. "Anybody, with clearance, looking up Data's schematic can also find his off switch. So it wasn't exactly a secret. That's how Riker found out during this episode." There's a clip of him accessing Data's schematic right before this scene. At first, he sees it as a means by which he can argue Cmdr. Maddox side. Then, he deflates when he realizes what he's about to do. Something of note, he has a rather defeated look on his face after giving the opening argument in Maddox's favor. I have a bit of admiration for Jonathan Frakes to be able to go from a confident prosecutor to a man who probably felt ashamed of himself.
Clinton Cook It took place on a newly commissioned starbase, which didn't have a legal team on board yet. Since Picard and Riker were the two highest ranking officers aboard, the duty of lawyer fell to them.
I wouldn't smirk too much, Maddox. That's the kind of thing that leads to being murdered by your own love interest after being brutalised by Seven's crime lord ex.
The fact they brought him back to the screen just to kill him the way they did is honestly hilarious. I thought they were going to do a long search for Maddox like soong and have him successfully replicate what he did maybe have some bad guys after him but no they do this elaborate nonsense just to kill him.
@@SisyphusJP wow. every time I think about watching picard, just wow. what the fuck. They're literally going out of their way to pointlessly kill all the side characters. Is that literally all it was? a revenge plot?
@@tsm688 yeah it’s crazy writers made huge mistakes
You can see in Riker's face he's heartbroken for doing this to his friend.
This episode made me question what I thought about right and wrong, law and justice and exactly what duty means. I didn't realize it at the time but the answers I found to these questions were the mortar that built my adult self.
Even then judge sounds affected.
you can't be a friend with a machine
@@zachsmith5515Maybe not now, but one day.
I'd like to think Riker was covertly acting in Data's interests here. While his actions were ostensibly to make Data look like a machine, the juxtaposition of Data giving testimony like a person, and seeing him dismantled and abruptly shut down, created a great deal of sympathy for him.
Riker had to create the best argument against Data he could in order to save him. He (no pun intended) created a steelman
@@lukereilly9844 This is true, but while it was the most logical argument he could've assembled, he also selected a very jarring and disturbing image to go with it, manipulating the judge on an emotional level in Data's favor.
@@billlupin8345 true
@Patrick McMahon But Riker's also a gambler, and he is making a logical point for his case, even if it undermines his case with emotional imagery
Not only that but the whole 'made by a human' argument is very easily countered. What is a baby but an organic machine created by two members of a species (or pair thereof)?
Riker saying "sorry" as he removes Data's hand is my favorite part of this clip.
"Data before I remove this can you make a loose fist?" -"Why sir?" "No reason."
My favourite part was when Riker asks Data to bend a bar of 40 kilogram tensile strength parsteel. Picard objects but the judge allows it. Probably because it was cool to watch him bend the steel as if it was plastic.
"Give him an inch and he'll take a mile!" Or in this case "give him a hand and he'll take the forearm as well!"
@BartJ583 Data was ordered to surrender the hand by the Judge, he didn't need Riker to ask. "I request to be allowed to remove the Commander's hand for your inspection" "Proceed Commander" Even Data looked confused when Picard objected.
@MrHappyBollox I never liked Riker too. But if I had to have him on my ship, I can definitely respect his opinion in a crisis. Oh, and his libido is a direct copy from Kirk, who was made in the 60's back when "free love" was popular.
My biggest gripe about this episode was Riker's logic (Picard was brilliant). Nearly everything he brings up is something that many sentient species can do. Incredible strength is had by many (heck even Vulcan, but they are weak compared to some). Hyper intelligence is had by many, those binary fellas from another episode could give him a run for their money. Prosthetics can be removed, but even better there are species who can regenerate an arm. Nearly all species can be rendered unconscious (or turned off as it will). None of those arguments hold any watter for lack of sentience.
It's not Riker that's the problem, it's the judge. She overruled Picard's perfectly logical objections and held the entire trial as an exercise in her own ego.
No? After removing a part of a living being's body, can it then be reattached and be just like before? And done naturally, Prosthetics are not actual body parts, any more than clothing or shoes or eyeglasses.
And Picard overlooked something I consider to be ironclad in resolving the issue. Data's application to Starfleet Academy. He joined Starfleet in the standard way, just like a Federation Citizen. He came in through the front door, not the maintenance entrance. Starfleet did not "come into possession of him", he voluntarily joined. Remember, the issue at hand is not if Data is alive, the issue is if he is the _property of_ Starfleet.
@@TheNoiseySpectator No, the issue is whether the judge who only cares about "making her mark on the law" views forcing him to become Starfleet property conducive to creating her own legacy.
@@TheNoiseySpectator And a KZhead comment lawyer just won the fucking case. As long as you aren't into bird law, I think you will do fine
This episode, one of many, had more tension, had higher stakes and was vastly more entertaining than a million space battles and kung fu.
I've always felt that Riker was actually helping data by showing them how brutal and immoral their position was by being totally disgusting and disrespectful to data.
Same here!
That would require you to KNOW Data, which Louvois (the judge) does NOT. This is like...something you should understand by 2 years old.
@@seansnyder2855 I know you're being facetious and I shouldn't take the bait but the thing I wanted to say if this was a man in a court in 1863 trying to prove that he should be enslaved because he is the same as you and I you shouldn't have to know him to feel empathy, if I cut off your hand, strangled you to unconsciousness, just to prove you are property because you were born a slave. You would feel disgusted and if you didn't at such disgusting acts of violence against another just for being designated different then you yourself should be outcasted, abused, used, and quite possibly murdered for every flaw that you have.
@@seansnyder2855hate to reply to a five month old comment but no, it does not. Data has the appearance and cadence of a human being hence violations of his personhood are emotionally visceral to human beings. This is something you should understand by, like, 1 year and 11 months old /s
@@renee9977 just to add, even the judge is taken aback when Riker hits Data’s off switch. She absolutely saw how horrible the act is. Since they’re trying to convince the judge that Data is a sentient being, showing her how barbaric it looks to just shut him off serves that goal.
Picard: "Your Honor - I Object" Judge: "Why" Picard: "Because it's Devastating to my case!"
Overactor!
*Maddox comes in* Picard: Here he comes to wreck the daaaaay! Judge: Captain Picard! Picard: Sorry, Your Honor.
Judge: Overruled! Picard: Good call!!!!
@@brassbear3373 Jezebel!
Picard: My client lied about his age! He was only 17 when he enlisted in Starfleet, which makes him a minor. And in the great organization of Starfleet, no minor can enter into any legal contract without parental consent. This contract is void! The fact that my client is nothing more than a glorified toaster is irrelevant. Standard Community Property applies and he is entitled to make his own decision. Worf fades back, swoosh, and THAT'S THE GAME! No further questions, your honor!
The acting in this episode was SO good. I remember seeing this episode when it premiered and wanting to b*tch slap that prick of a science officer. Frakes had several reps where he got to show his acting chops, this was the first of many. The genuine look of guilt Riker has is gut wrenching.
3:13 This part definitely broke Riker and me when I first saw this episode. It's like he's saying, "I don't want to, but I have to."
"Pinnochio is broken. Its strings have been cut" That line kills me every time.
See I would counter that a Vulcan can do the same to most humanoid lifeforms. In the same way Picard made the point that having super strength was not relevant to whether or not he was a sentient life form.
and it's true
Me too
I always thought the "off-switch" argument was so silly. Picard should've had a Vulcan present to apply a Vulcan nerve pinch on Riker as a counter argument.
The detachable arm was also silly, as there were officers with prosthetics. The strength argument was silly because there are species with varying strength. But the judge didn’t care, because she was only looking to make a legacy for herself.
Good one, lol!
Picard: I will now also demonstrate how to turn off a man. *Knocks out Riker*
@@Skyblade12 Picard should've had a Vulcan nerve pinch her.
@@Skyblade12 Let keep this simple. Dr Crusher could easy end the life of any human for a short time and bring them back to life. She could easily remove someone's arm, leg, and even their brain and reinstall it. If you remember the episode where Spooks brain was taken and replaced. So the turning Data off and on can be done to any living being.
Star trek always has done the moral/ ethical episodes well. What is right vs. what is easy. I also liked at the end of this episode Data acted more human than we've seen before. "This act injured you, but saved me. I will not forget that. " and in a deleted scene he actully called riker by his first name.
Imagine having to do that to a good friend who's saved your life more than once. Data's view of Riker's performance at the end was very touching. He thanked Riker for going at him so hard because that act hurt Riker, but was necessary to prevent a summary judgement and allowed Picard to fight on his behalf.
0:28 Mark Zuckerberg testifies before the Senate, April 2018 (Colorized)
trolltacular1 yesssss... thats why im here. im like Marc Zuck is data
It's like he's purposefully acting like Data
Matthew McMahon what if Mark really is an Android?? What if he is not acting ??
Haha!
Please, do not besmirch the legacy of Data with Zuckerberg.
Picard could have had a perfectly valid reason for his objection to removing his hand. The entire purpose of the trial is to determine whether or not Data has rights, such that he can refuse to be deconstructed by Starfleet against his will. For to the judge to say that Data can have his hand removed by Riker, without Data's say-so, begs the question. It should not have been allowed and Picard would have been able to see this easily.
It is a violation of the right to bodily integrity. If it is allowed to proceed that presupposes the outcome of the trial, hence a logical fallacy: begging the question.
True, but Riker could have then asked Data for permission to remove the hand, which would assume or at least imply the assumption that Data is a person. Whoever he asks begs the question.
Picard should have had people with artificial limbs testify and have them take their limbs off in court. does that make them less human as they have artificial limbs I think not
Picard has a legitimate objection and did not need to remove his objection. Removal of the hand would be extremely prejudicial against Data. However I prefer to think of this legal gaff as a result of the fact neither Riker or Picard are trained as attorneys and intimately familiar with the rules of evidence. This is where having a fully staffed JAG office on that station would have been handy, but that would have make a more boring episode. Part of the tension of the episode is the fact Riker is forced to act as the prosecution and perform that duty to the best of his ability or else Data summarily loses.
It wasn’t me, it was the one-armed man.
You really have to pity Riker here. He put forth a very strong case, the strongest he could possibly have made for the position he had to defend- and he didn't really believe a word of it. His closing line "Pinocchio is broken; it's strings have been cut" carries just a touch of cynicism behind it that, when taken out of context, could be applied to Data- but really, Riker loathes his role in these proceedings.
Because Riker was being made to prosecute by the Federation despite his feelings, so he was in a sense being controlled against his will, like Pinocchio on the strings.... Thats actually makes so much sense, I've come to see this in an entirely new light.
One of the greatest episodes ever. I have watched this episode dozens of times. The plot, the acting, the philosophy, simply fantastic.
I like that data's hand went into flipping the bird slightly upon removal
I never noticed that before. Lol
if Data is not sentient, his hand definitely is.
It would have been funny if Riker removed Datas dong for the court to inspect
@@maggs131 thanks to the overanalyzers we know it has quite the set of features😏
data was bending long before bender
jon williams Interesting thing about that Futurama kind of flip-flops back-and-forth on the subject of whether robots are senti and being‘s are not on one hand bender is regarded as plane in express property but based on what we see owns an apartment and all that other stuff which means he should also be considered a being with a life of his own.
I am Data. Please insert girder.
Possibly in Futurama some robots are people and others are property. Much as Slavery is with humans...
With black jack and hookers! (Seriously, watch the episode, "The Royale")
Boco Corwin my car isn’t self aware by any means nor intelligent so that’s not a very good analogy.
"That action injured you, and saved me. I will not forget it." ETA: I just realized that Riker's Pinocchio line was a call-back to his first meeting with Data on the holodeck; when Data says he would gladly give up his android superiority to be human, Riker says, "Nice to meet you, Pinocchio."
2:53 Picard's objection here should have been along the lines of "The purpose of this hearing is to determine Data's right to body autonomy, whether he has the right to refuse disassembly. If the court orders the removal of commander Data's hand it is violating the very rights that this hearing is meant to affirm or deny. As such, I object to this request unless Commander Data provides explicit permission."
Furthermore, turning Data off would be in our terms the same as involuntarily sedating a witness on stand.
machines don't have rights
So what? Riker's beard could have bent that
Joshua Knode Hahaha!!!!😂😂😂
It did.
No But Chuck Norris Beard can Bend titanium and Diamonds
Objection.
pussy
"I request a recess" I would too, I mean it'd probably take like 30 minutes for Data to reboot after that.
Imagine Data going into a sudden windows update mode during that boot up!
"Applying update 1 of 802701 . . ."
Then you have to reset the password, it's all a big mess.
Windows upgrade be like:. Downloading upgrade. Do not unplug your machine during the upgrade. But we'll keep your monitor in at a blazing white background
That star fleet regs even allowed a sentiency of its officer to be called into question is deeply unsettling on its own.
Frankly, I don’t think they do. But the judge clearly didn’t give a damn about anything except herself, and even admits as such. The proper result of this hearing should have been both her and Maddox being brought up on charges and ejected from Starfleet.
@@nemo-x It is true. She revealed before the case even started (when she first arrived on the station) that she was concerned with "making her mark" on law. That is not her job. She cared only about her own role and impact.
I’ve never seen this episode. I loved TNG immediately. The cast seemed so comfortable with one another I could tell that the characters had a lot of history and back stories.
That moment when Riker says "I'm sorry."
I like this episode because of Riker's attitude. He has a job to do, even though he doesn't want to do it because Data's his friend, and yet he still shuts Pinocchio off
I think Frakes acts this really well... you can see the guilt in his face as he sits down... and that hand over his mouth, suggests he wants to vomit from it. The other part of the episode is when he spots the 'off switch' when he's viewing Data's schematics... and he smiles in a "Well Data, that's something you kept to yourself" and he nods thinking it's a tactic he can use in the hearing.... but then catches what he's doing, and the smile vanishes.
Cliffjumper24 Frakes did a good job you can see it on his face the shame and horror over what he's just done and he really does look like he's on the verge of throwing up. that movement of the hand over the mouth is a stroke of genius on the actors part.
Data should really get rid of that off switch, though, everyone knows about it - I wonder if the crew isn't constantly pranking him by switching him off all the time.
Makes one wonder to what extent should one do their job. If I was a judge and someone would bring me a case where the prosecution would argue to un-person someone, id be terribly inclined to not even let them finish before dismissing their case on base of its inhuman, amoral and altogether unacceptable nature
Loved the close up of Riker after he was done to show his loathing at himself
This episode was so good, and the Pinnochio line recalls how Riker when meeting Data first referred to him as Pinnochio...
And like Pinocchio, Data wanted to be a real boy, lol.
May we take a reassess , so I can reassemble my client , thank you your honor .
recess
"First I want to draw a penis on his face."
Pay attention writers and directors of Discovery. This is how you do Star Trek.
04:23 can just read it on his face. " have i gone too far?"
"And now a human will shut it off." Counter......Vulcan nerve pinch.
Rikers look of devastation as he shuts Data off is exceptionally telling. He hated having to do that. But his dedication to the truth was such that this piece of information *HAD* to be included so that the most fair rendering could be made.
The only fair rendering on a question of someone's sentience, should it ever be made in the first place, is to resoundingly tell anyone who aims to un-person somebody else to go fuck themselves.
@@michalsoukup1021 Indeed, this is the case. Picard’s first objection was perfectly valid. The case had no merit behind it from the beginning, and the judge was openly and admittedly biased and acted numerous times in direct violation of her job.
It’s super easy to fit a human with an “off switch”, doesn’t mean he isn’t human. Going after Data’s bodily functions was a stupid strategy. “He can detach his hand”, yeah so can an amputee, a-hole!
Pinnochio is broken, its trings have been cut. Me: RIKER YOU SONOFABITCH!!! 😥😥😥😥
Eric Ruiz He had to... If he didn't testify at all to make it a fair fight Maddox would have won. He didn't mean it.
I think this episode is where TNG stopped being a sad shadow of TOS and began to stand on its own. Last time I did a TNG rewatch, I started here.
If I didn't know any better, this is one of a very few times I can honestly say Riker was so very close to crying. He felt absolutely horrible about doing this to Data. Even worse because he had no choice but to perform this duty without personal bias.
Riker felt super shitty during this.
this really hurt riker to have to do that to his friend
Well he should. These arguments are so crap if the resolution is supposed to be "Data has a soul".
Not really, by providing a proper advocate in this case he was able to set the stage for Data's vindication. Precisely because he knew Data was probably a person deserving of rights he could confidentially present an argument to the contrary knowing in the end the truth would establish the android's personhood. Riker demonstrated the humiliation and violence that data could experience by anyone having power over the android. And yet the trial clearly indicated that Data is a self aware, eloquent and intelligent individual. Therefore clearly passing the Turing test of sentience indication the android was probably sentient, and therefore be vulnerable to cruelty.
Riker was given an assignment to do if he did not do it to the best of his ability then judge would have found against the data out right.
Nice point Bailey.
Data really needs to have Geordi deactivate that off switch.
@Alicia en el Pais de las Maravillas ai should always have an easy to reach off switch
At least Doofischmirtz didn't make him, or that would be a self-destruct button.
@@ridjenite And named him Datinator. :-D
I love how you can just see how painfull it is for Ryker to do all that to Data. Amazing acting.
I love that the terms "neural net" and "heuristic algorithms" are actually what's used in AI today. These writers really did there research
This is what impressed me the most, i was like how did they know?
You know shit got real when even Picard needs a time out.
When I was a kid, I hated Data. He gave me the creeps. I didn't know why but he gave me the heebeejeebees. Then my mom explained he was a robot. Then it all made sense and he became one of my favorite characters.
It’s been like a decade since I first saw this scene but dang. It still gets me every time. The acting is so good.
This episode is a nail biter, and entirely without battles or ship threatening issues. You can see the moment Riker sat back down how fucking much this is killing him inside. Just the sheer weight on his shoulders. His friend's life is hanging by a thread, and he's being forced to hold the scissors. Both Riker and Picard were on the verge of being psychically ill from each demonstration. Riker probably more so. It goes to show how much they know this is so unbelievably wrong, and how much they care about Data in general. I fully believe if Riker had actually won, he would have resigned without a second look back. The sheer amount of guilt would be overwhelming.
have you seen star trek picard... now thats a star trek *breaks into muscial no. while my assistant beheads the dj*
800 quadrillion bits = 100000 terabytes. We could almost build a Data these days.
I would think data storage is one of the _least_ important things in building an android.
The way you process information is far more important. Despite what some scientists might tell you, we can not mimic the human brain with computers, because they're not the same *thing.* Linear processing (which Data claims to use), is wildly inadequate compared to the brain which assembles in non-linear, spontaneous and dynamic patterns. Opposite parts of the brain can create non-local, neural "webs" of processing on the fly to deal with new problems, then dissolve them in a nanosecond, storing the blueprint for possible later use. It's like if humans discovered a machine built by aliens on another planet. We struggle to even describe our complete lack of understanding of the basic functions in the brain (though some neuroscientists try to convince you otherwise as a living).
Jakk Frost BS, it's going to need every fucking AC/DC song made!
yes and we could pretty much build a starship to theses days
Too bad people are more into building walls, prisons and nukes lately... Humanity had so much potential...
The reason for this trial really didn't make sense. If they didn't think Data was a sentient being. Why would you let him serve in Starfleet, give him awards and give him authority over sentient beings?
One person, who had higher authority than both of those captains, said it doesn't have sentient rights due to being automaton. Legally to bypass decision. Riker even as Data friend must go against him and Picard didn't had sadly anything to say. Fleet originally give Data and other like him sentient rights. But in their legal system some persons have right to take it away from somebody.
Bret .Maverick that's exactly why the trial needed to happen in Maddox eyes. You are innocent until proven guilty, so there was no reason to doubt data as of yet. It was something they just didn't do before
It is odd, you would think that the question would have been settled before allowing him command. However, the issue came when Data attempted to resign from Starfleet. Until then, I can see them going along with it as he behaved as a competent officer. When he tried to leave for self preservation, they had to really think if they invested time in him as an artificial system or as a sentient being. This idea comes up again in Voyager with the holographic doctor and his other copies, though it is not handled nearly as seriously.
Anthropomorphic bias is a real thing. It's why we name and talk to many inanimate objects. If one of those objects was able to communicate we would be able to develop an empathetic bond with it. Data looks human, talks like a human, and behaves in many ways as a human. Yet he is not a human. Picard has grown extremely attached to Data and only by his authority on his ship is Data actually considered sentient.
I think TNG is defining sentience as having conscious experience, what philosophers call the "hard problem of consciousness". You could imagine a more powerful version of IBM's Watson computer that is pretty close to all-knowing, and capable of making good rational inferences, but has no conscious experience. It's just a machine that takes inputs and creates good outputs. The question isn't whether Data rationally responds to stimuli. He clearly does, so it's fine to trust him with major responsibilities. The question is whether he experiences life as we do, whether he can suffer or flourish.
The Legal Eagle channel did an awesome breakdown of this scene from the viewpoint of a practicing lawyer.
This was a very deep and thought-provoking episode. I never thought too much of Frakes as an actor, but in this particular episode he did well as the reluctant prosecutor. Stewart presented his case brilliantly as Data's savior as the two supporting actors stood back to let him shine.
This is where you can really see how they regard Data. Picard, as his son, Riker, as his ward. Data was an amazing character.
can only imagine Riker feeling like a galaxy -size turd for having to do that ( deactivate Data) to his friend.
I think this might be my fav TNG episode. The trial has more raw emotion than most shows could ever dream of pulling off. Picard gives so much of a shit, but hes so collected,stoic and almost distant most of the time, youd be forgiven for thinking that maybe he doesnt. It makes episodes like this hit so much harder.
0:33 The Captain does something here that I don't think anyone else sees. Not only does the Captain stand up for Data when Riker tries to skip over his merit count during verification, but the Captain is also acknowledging Data's very own sentience here by showing that Androids can be just as good at humans. Look up the awards, Data is a true OG Star Trekking Baller. You can't jack him up bro...
The major problem with this episode is that nobody even bothered to look at the history between Star Fleet, Dr. Soong, and Lt. Com. Data. If they had, then the claim that Data was the property of Star Fleet would have been thrown out.
And there wouldn't have been an episode to talk about. Not everything has to fit into the neat little box of pedantic canon. If that were so, many interesting stories would never have surfaced.
Actually, the problem is that the judge is absurdly biased and does not even pretend to hold an objective standard or care about the laws and regulations of the Federation.
@@Skyblade12 Like precedent. Or a fair trial (objectively the trial was massively rigged in favor of Data). Or basic logic (physical peculiarities have nothing to do with personhood). Or Star Trek principles (Starfleet holds trials based on threats and whims of an officer holding an emergency trial without cause).
@@magicmulder At the very beginning of the episode, the judge says that she's there because she wants to "make law". Which isn't her job. Her job is to interpret and apply laws already there. The entire case happens because she thinks she can turn it into an issue to promote herself.
@@Skyblade12 Yeah but they already did that with that episode with the Romulan scare where the old Admiral was holding a show trial.
Removing the off-switch would invalidate his Currys/PC World warranty.
The warranty was broken when his hand was removed.
_"No interocitor part can be replaced. Bear this in mind while assembling. Use only genuine interocitor™ parts."_
"Have you tried turning it off, and then turning it back on again?"
Or his PC Gamer mag. LOL
My most favorite part of this episode and that gave me chills the first time I saw it was when Picard consults with Guinan about the case and they talk about the implication of slavery.
The bit about Data’s awards and citations is straight out of Court Martial TOS.
4:16 I love how surprised Louvois is at Riker's prosecution. She can't exactly claim he's throwing the case NOW.
Disgusting. Absolutely revolting...I despise this scene. Data being taken apart and "turned off"; Blue shirt guy smiling sadistically...it just makes me furious seeing Data victimized.
^^ THIS. It always makes me sick to watch this scene. I remember way back when this very first aired. I was five, and I was bawling like crazy.
Do you feel the same way when you see the engineer kicking and pushing the Atlas robot over at the Boston Dynamics lab?
Having no idea what the Atlas robot is, I cannot answer that question. My apologies.
Here you go. It's normal for you to have sympathy for things that seem alive. Sorry Data. kzhead.info/sun/Z7SahLutnYenpI0/bejne.html
Bruce Maddox and Data become close friends, as Maddox is promoted to Captain and helps resurrect Data after his death in Nemesis!
This was one of my favorite episodes
I absolutely love Data he is by far my favorite character. He is an android but he is as human as he was made to be.
Over time, Data became human in every way except for his physical body.
This entire episode is absolutely glorious sci-fi. GLORIOUS!
One of my all time favorite Next Generation episodes! Thumb up!
i find myself re-watching these clips, no matter how many times i watch them i always get drawn into the drama.
The genius of this show is far beyond what's comprehensional
its very subtle, but you can see data give them the finger.
What scene?
Wonder Bunny 3:27 - 3:29
That was beautiful.
Wish that had been used as part of Picard's evidence.
In a way Riker was always helping Data by showing the ugliness of the position he represents by turning him off in cruel manner shows what type of barbarity his positions represents.
I never understood Riker's argument here because a human can be turned off with a knife or a gun or even 3 inches of water
Love how he mentions Lore, nobody at any point in this episode goes, "Let's find that jackass and take him apart. Save us this nonsense and trouble down the road."