Rivian R1T vs R1S - Out of Spec Hill Climb Challenge
2022 ж. 29 Қаз.
94 883 Рет қаралды
Kyle, Alyssa, and Coleton take the Rivian R1S and R1T electric SUV and pickup out for the Hill Climb challenge! They show how differently both of these vehicles perform when the terrain goes rocky and discuss suspension, motor / powertrain calibration, and more in this off-road setting.
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God we definitely needed more R1 offroad content and Kyle delivered. Doesn't need to be a $100,000 multi-camera extravaganza, just show us how it does.
Nice. The wheel slip issue seems very fixable with software. IMO, the issue isn't the wheels that are spinner - that's fine, they're completely independent from the other wheels. It's the wheels NOT spinning. I'd want to tuned so as you give it more throttle all wheels should eventually spin.
It needs a locker
@@carholic-sz3qv nah, each motor is powerful. Just more software tweaking
@@spencjon4822 yes each motor is powerfull but unfortunately software can’t solve everything lol….. why are you just like all the other deniers!? If electric motors were that perfect then why do they need a small gearbox too!? Also why do they need reduction gears!? Why aren’t they just directly connected to the wheels!? Wtf!!! Stfu!!
@@spencjon4822 a 90hp toyota hilux which is 30 years old has better off-road capabilities than those electric cars.
@@carholic-sz3qv That statement is not even remotely true.
Fantastic information review. Great information for Rivian to view also. I could really see this becoming one of your most popular channels.
As someone who's owned a Classic Cherokee and a Rubicon (and wheeled them countless times in similar conditions in northern Utah), both of them could handle that climb with relative ease. I like the R1S. I think a couple of years of real-world testing and over the air updates will result in a very capable off road package.
Exactly, if you watch Doug demuro's channel he said the r1s wheels better than a jeep lol. That's coming from someone who thinks driving on dirt is offroading.
@@anthoneyurtz5689 Yea, it's obvious most reviewers don't have a lot of off road experience. I think I remember Kyle admitting as much in this very video. My classic Cherokee did have a lift kit, sway bar disconnects, and larger tires, but neither of my Jeeps was over-the-top customized and they both wheeled like beasts.
@Ken Hiett I like this review because it truly shows the capabilities of the rivians. Not saying they are horrible but a R1S is far from the ultimate wheeler. I have owned a built jku, really built LJ and a full blown rock bouncer on Rockwell and 42's. I have done a good majority of the hardest trails in the US and have a little bit of wheeling experience. With how influential youtubers are I truly have a love hate mentality for them because either they are selling crap they are sponsored on or just really spreading bad info. I have been enjoying their channels because it fits our current vehicles even including a 4x4 sprinter adventure van (storyteller overland mode).
@@anthoneyurtz5689 I agree, the R1S is not going to compete with specialized off roaders, but I think it could be one of the best luxury SUV's in this environment. With that much torque and the excellent low center of gravity these offer, seems to me the right tires and the right recipe for distributing power to the 4 tires and this thing will be impressive considering its on-road capabilities. Best of both worlds maybe.
@Ken Hiett I say keep the rivians to car camping. With the battery packs location really wheeling a ev is going to be a big no for me for awhile. I have high centered plenty of times in my rigs that I can not imagine dragging a battery pack over rocks. That's just my personal opinion. If I were to replace my tesla with a rivian it still would be kept for street duty. Rivians are high on the list for the tesla replacement
3:13 I'm bummed to hear you may have lost the footage for the Alaska series. Your first few episodes on that trip were excellent!
Longer wheel bases can have advantages on hill climbs, can reduce vehicle angle and keep your power applied further rear of the obstacle... Of course at the trade off of brake over.
Two motors with a locker would be a cheaper and more reliable option than four motors, with very little real downside in terms of street performance. I think Ford took the right approach with that in the Lightning powertrain. Also frees up space and reduces demand on software calibrations.
Would love to have Rivian explain their 4x4 tech here. Making all 4 wheels turn at the same time would seem to be a very simple thing with the setup in these cars. Seriously impressed with what Rivian has done with these 1. gen cars, hopefully they can shave of some of that weight in the future and I also think the backend looks kind of funky (very high and tippy)
All 4 moving the same is absolutely possible, but it's not the most effective system possible. Engineering Explained has a great video on the 4 motor AWD system of the Rivian that talks about this - he does a great job of explaining to non engineers too!
@@spencjon4822 Actually saw that one but the performance in this video does not seem to match with the theory. It makes no sense that wheels are not spinning at all so to me it seems Rivian has a bug in their software
@@terje5723rivian is probably limiting it via software.
Rock crawling is best done with SOFT SUSPENSION not stiff. You want the chassis as soft and flexible as possible to rock crawl. Stiff should be used for high speed desert running.
Ideally, it would have moderately soft damping overall, and ride height should be adjusted to a setting that is not in danger of topping the suspension out too easily. Unfortunately, neither of these were adjusted optimally. But the biggest problem was that Kyle nerfed the traction controls. Put a $100K truck in the hands of a yahoo who thinks he knows it all, and this is what you get.
Lot's of good info... thanks....
Awesome comparison Kyle!
For future, I think it would be useful to also test aired down tires as well since no one runs nameplate pressure in those conditions if they can help it. This isn't a "whoops, we accidentally got ourselves into some rock crawling terrain". Those factory pressures are for on-road mileage, safety, & tire longevity. This and the R1T, Lightning, etc., demonstrates that an overlanding focused EV SUV/Truck needs a 2 speed gearbox for finer control. I wonder if the motors are hitting an amperage-per-RPM limit. You're now asking one or two single ~200hp motors to pull this heavy vehicle up without any sort of slippage from a clutch or torque converter. I bet a ~2x reduction gearset would help a lot here. I can't think of another reason why they wouldn't just lock all 4 motors to the same target RPM at X pedal position to simulate diff lockers. Within the confines of motor limits obviously.
I knew exactly where you were w/o listening. That entry incline is legit
You would think they could easily do a virtual locking diff function. Have a speed limited mode that sends equal power to the opposite wheels
I thought so too. But after some thought I realized it's damn near impossible.
@@bob15479 why is it impossible?
Fun. Nice work.
Would love to see some winter driving as the seasons change.
When using the Rivian’s cameras off-roading, I recommend turning off the 360 view. You then get a three camera display with a view of each tire appearing on the sides of a central front camera view. Useful for getting a very good look at your line.
Interesting results… maybe this can help explain the towing disparity, since it seems pretty clear that the R1S’s drivetrain mapping is more favorable towards the front motors, especially when you have the same power and motors.
😂 Love this! I'm loving the Rivian R1S! Maybe try the Nokian tires on the R1S 👍🏼
Appreciate the rock crawling comparison, how about a drag race haha!
With the issue you show on the quad motor config, do you think the dual-motor would fair better? Does the dual motor config have a lockable diff? Would love to see off-road/rock climb comparison of the quad and dual motor R1T and R1S.
Would appreciate the test comparison run with the same wheels and tires ... it would make for a more scientific and valid comparison of the different Rivians.
I really which there was a "diff locker" mode, where I can tell the truck, look just have each of the four motors spin with my accelerator. I don't care if a high wheel spins...I just want to make sure the down wheel does, too.
Wow very capable both of them. I'm surprised R1S did this well with 22's drifting was awesome. Good thing nobody was there 👍🏼😎
Hey Kyle. What happens to speed calibrations if you change tire size?
When you were stuck in the soft dirt, why not switch to the soft sand setting? Or rock crawl mode?
Lovin those Nokian 22s! How do they compare to the 20s on the highway?
Maybe you should visit Nokian in Finland some day. Their Ivalo test track "white hell" might be worth a visit during the coldest months (jan, feb)
What all terrain tires did you get for the 21' wheels
What’s the 22 tire size? Same as OE?
Disappointing wheel spinning from a car with four motors. Any wheel spin from a suspended wheel should be eliminated well within one revolution. Look at a Defender wheel in the air. Would like to see a Rivian off-road vs a Defender
Hi Kyle, How much range is loss with new nokian tires on R1T ?
What are your thoughts on the 2 motor Rivian vs 4 motor for off roading? I like the 4 motor setup but I want the big battery pack which is limited to the 2 motor setup. Thanks!
@Kyle do you think the dual motor will have a locking diff, and in-turn solve this issue?
The issue at 10:50 is the mode. Each mode has a mix of slip and locking (torque vectoring). For that type of terrain you need to be in rock crawling mode which will vector more power to the slipping wheel. Simply locking a diff at all times would make it drive like an old truck as opposed to a luxury vehicle. The vehicle is capable, but Rivian needs to provide more education about how to use it. I’ve been in this exact situation, changed modes and driven right through with no effort.
I didn't even know this channel existed. Found out by watching one of Dave's videos where he mentioned it.
100 lbs or so of tires in the bed of the R1T could have made some difference.
Funny enough this is the only big car I love. I just love compact or small cars. Where Model 3 is my favorite dream car (saving up for in about 6-8 years - the time I typically drive cars)
The drivetrain logic during this test behaves, like an open differential in a standard 4 x 4 vehicle. I’m very surprised that Rivian is not able to individually activate the motors on each wheel and integrate information, including altitude, temperature, whether the surface is dry, wet, or snow-covered, wheel articulation, wheel spin, the angles and rates of climb, roll, and yaw in the vehicle, and throttle position, all as part of its logic to determine how much power to send to each motor and wheel. There are no standard axles and differentials. Each wheel has its own motor. Therefore, integrating information from multiple sensors should provide the data needed to control the drivetrain logic. The vehicle could also incorporate GPS information as part of its algorithm.
How durable is the underbody? Are there any skid plates?
If you've got an on-board compressor, there's no reason not to air down off of street pressures.
Kyle, what’s up with the R1S’ passenger door handle? It’s not closed like the others. Faulty?
Probably just disabled the front door automatically locking option
@@davidpett Funny to see a name I recognize from Oregon here! Are you waiting on a rivian?
@@Fozzymandius I have one already 😀
Not airing down is a huge handicap. Anyone that is into off-roading knows how important airing down is.
So, while those 22" tires do look good on the Trucks, i LOVE the all black 20" wheels! I'm waiting for a Large pack Dual-Motor (hopefully in Yellow) :)
They need to put in a virtual locker button that would fix these issues
that's not possible. the computer cannot accurately guess how much torque it needs. it operates on trial and error.
Very nice review and a delicate description of complete failure of that advertised by Rivian 4-motor awd system. Utterly useless awd algorithm
I wonder if having the suspension damping set to soft wouldn't have given you more articulation or at least allow it to more easily articulate. The R1S looked stiff as rocks.
I don't understand his logic either. Stiff means less articulation especially with ifs irs instead of beam axles. Highest setting means no droop at all. Clearance wasn't an issue to need highest. He was just afraid being it wasn't his. Of course airing down would have helped. My conclusion is this is at best an all wheel drive vehicle based on what I see. The traction control system looks horrible compared to what Toyota's ATRAC can do l. Throw a locking dif in the Toyota and the rivian is left far behind. I'm apt to go for the dual motor and hope the carrier is compatible with an ARB model. After all the rivian already has an ARB compressor in it!
@@LarsDennert Kyle nerfed it by turning the traction control to a low setting. This limits the torque differential the system allows and is why the unweighted wheels were spinning while the loaded wheels had very little torque applied to them. This is what happens when you have an inexperienced off-roader know-it-all at the controls. It's not educational, it's misleading. I mean, what was he thinking turning the traction control to a low setting? Seriously dumb, he represents that he understands this stuff but he's a complete neophyte. And he wasn't even humble enough to consider he might not know what he's talking about and trying it with the traction control fully engaged. Nothing worse than someone who can't admit he was wrong.
Any way to bolt some rock rails on the S or T?
Doug Demuro showed how capable the R1T on his channel on stock tires. If i had the money, for sure this would be on my radar.
lol no he didn't he went up a hill that a rav4 could do easy
Where is this specifically? Does it have a name? It's beautiful
Rock crawling in the dry is fine but how does it perform on gloopy mud and rocks - we don’t all live in dry sunny places! Also judging from the amount of wheel locking up coming down it appears that the Rivians (both) don’t have any sort of hill descent control. I was off-roading in extremely wet weather on muddy rocky tracks yesterday in my 2020 Defender and the ability of that car to crawl DOWN that sort of surface on Duratrac AT’s at slower than walking pace is amazing
Needs a locker end of story
Great point. And a head to head off road showdown between R1S and Defender 110 would be epic. I was actually looking at the defender when I placed my pre-order for R1S and imagine others would be cross shopping those two also.
I bet being in high height mode instead of highest and maybe slightly softer suspension mode it might have gone up easier allowing a bit more travel
Agreed. Kyle has no clue how to adjust the settings for the conditions. He seems convinced that the traction nannies couldn't help him, so he nerfs them to low. I guess when you think you're God's gift to driving, you are also convinced that a computer couldn't help you. Nothing could be further from the truth. He also takes some very strange lines. Rather than turning into the high spots, he seems to aim for the holes. Very odd lines for someone who claims to be an experienced off-roader.
He might have been purposely trying to take hard lines to stress the system
Why would the passenger door handle remain open on R1S while driving up ?
So is the dual motor better for offroad?
nice
How could it not have full 4 wheel drive ? locking diffs or use brake on one wheel to make the other spin?
The 4x4 Revian software needs a lot of upgrades, all the time it sends power to the wheels that have no traction and not even try to send it to the ones that do. The easier solution is to let people do the work if needed, like a virtual locker. Land Rover's software is far better, but Electric has other advantages, and Land Rover basically invented the modern take on traction control so that is expected.
Why is the door handle on the front passenger door sticking out the entire review?
Why is the R1S passenger door handle open, when driving?
What is the problem for Rivian to make motors sync and give it like 3 diff locks. Its just software needed. It would be beast.
Thanks for the content. But I'm not sure I understand the logic of not airing down. "We want to test on factory air pressure." But the factory specifically recommends airing down. I understand that in real life, different tire pressures are to be optimized for the conditions, and that you are testing. But it doesn't seem any more informative or any more true to any baseline to use a pressure the mfg does not recommend for the circumstance. Thanks again; looking forward to continued content.
Airing down helps with traction but reduces ground clearance in the process. Probably want to minimize risk of damaging loaner vehicles as a general rule.
The 4 motor would not move with opposite wheels lacking traction is due to the fact that a PN electric motor has massive torque from JUST ABOVE 0 RPM. At full stop with minimal traction on each axle as you were, those motors struggle to turn. If you had rocked a little, you would have climbed right out of it.
Did you "loose" the alaska footage so you'd have to go there again? ;)
I was surprised to see that much of wheel spin and traction issues in all electric high-tech machine like this. It can't sense properly which wheels have traction and which don't?
Can u do a rivian vs land cruiser or Land Rover ?
What trail is this?
Wow surprised it can't just lock all 4 by default if in Rock Crawl mode or provide a button to lock. Not impressed. Thanks for the video! That trail is Kelly Flats and if you go further it's heart attack hill.
I want to buy myself a review in with the profits from my shares....! I will hold this for the next 5 years
trying to reduce wheel spin so we can do "low impact" climbing..... does drifting session in the parking lot. LOL!!
Can you ask Rivian if they are still planning an R1S with 400 mile range?
Tony came on Rivian stories and answered your question yesterday
@@ashrafc7794 What was the answer?
@@ashrafc7794 and the answer was?
@@ashrafc7794 what is “Rivian Stories”? And how do I access it, if you aren’t going to simply answer the question I asked?
@@ashrafc7794 he didn’t address whether the R1S would be available with the Max Pack. kzhead.info/sun/rKxsndh_eouMrIE/bejne.html
Why have this traction control like system at all? Just lock as in make all motors run at the same rpm with manual engagement front and rear.
One of the issues with 4 motor is that whatever the advertised torque is, is divided by 4.
pretty confident the torque of each electric motor is more than capable to move the truck, unless it is facing some impossibly steep slope
dang im in colorado too and am about to sell my 4Runner for an R1S... but watching this idk how i feel D:
rock crawl mode engaged. 404 error: lack of traction.
You have to match air in the tires
At first I thought this was an electric ford bronco 😂
So you're the guy that did donuts in the parking lot?
Rivian 💨💨💨💨💨💨💨💨💥🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣and post of the electric 4x4 are 💨💨💨💨💨💨 but i thank you for your honest test drive and for your politesse 🙏✌
10:37 Active traction would do the job easily!!
I wonder: can the Rivian stay in the highest suspension permanently, without compromising the vehicle's life expectation?
No. That would be a rough ride and hard on cv shafts.
Which one is heavier?
Truck by a couple hundred pounds
I thought the R1S would have done better off road. You'd think having 4 independent motors would be able to go right up anything.
Kelly Flats shouldn’t be sending Rubicons turning around… where have you seen that? We crawled it without using lockers in a wrangler and new Cherokee with no slippage. I’m intrigued by the Rivian and EVs off-road, but that was disappointing. That is just the precursor to the good stuff on this trail. If it’s struggling there, that’s an issue. Hopefully they can fix it, but I wouldn’t sugarcoat this performance. As someone who edits a ton of off-road vehicles and knows that trail, it shouldn’t have struggled there.
Why you call the R1S a truck??
I like simple, these aren’t that, cool tech, I’m old, I like simple ❤
Fantastic capable vehicle from America both onroad and offroad, if you make it reliable too, you will sell more vehicles than the German and Japanese automakers
I don't have that much experience driving off road but that doesn’t look right. People who are actually experienced in this matter will be able tell whats wrong but that wheel spin and the wheels that are stuck looks unnatural and somewhat dangerous.
doesn't seem that hard to implement a LOCK mode to spin all the wheels at the same speed up to 30 mph with soften accelerator response
I prefer soft suspension on rock crawling.
Awesome looking trucks but they still can’t compete with the land cruisers
Why dont they just software lock all the wheels?? If there is a motor on each wheel i dont see why they dont do that..🤷🏼♂️
The S would be better if it was long wheel base 👍. What was going on with the S door handle sticking out. Snap off going backwards through branches 🙈🤦♂️
Sets Stability to Reduced and then wonders why the wheels are spinning and the loss of traction in rock crawl.
DIFFERENT WHEELBASE DICTATES A DIFFERENT LINE UP ANY TRACK
100% need lockers and the same power going to all 4 wheels
Modello spettacolare
If you had been less heavy on the brake the car wouldn't have to regain traction from a dead stop.
Diffs need locks because one wheel losing traction means the other one loses traction as well. With independent motors you don't need locks. You need more throttle.
With diff locks you can always send the full torque on the axle to one wheel, with two motors only have as much. At that low speed and max torque the motors run on max current, so not much to do there to compensate that.
You are very wrong!!! Thé indépendant motors could work together multiply their torque and then send the power to the two wheels instead of each working separately! The electric motors can very easily or the inverter overheat in a serious route.
If you watch the hells revenge rivian hillclimb it’s fans are super loud way louder than à combustion engine from ICE car. ICE cars with lockers are à dream too no struggle or wheels spin at all
@@e-redj exactly! It’s the same thing as tesla saying 100% power in the rear wheels for drift! Lol…. Thé there are two electric motors in front and rear and cannot be combined like ICE.
@@carholic-sz3qv with the 4 motor setup, I think the axles are completely separate? So no way for the left motor to send power to the right wheel?
I think you should try a Range Rover or Land Rover! Those vehicles are perfect offroad even with crappy tires. Please try one if you can get it.
It seems the T did way better the. The S. Almost seems like you were justifying what you bought over what you tested. Either way both look bad ass, from a TRD driver