The Mercedes SL used to be the McLaren F1 of its day. What happened? - The Carmudgeon Show - Ep. 6
When the W198 generation Mercedes 300SL road car came out in 1954, it was the McLaren F1 of its day. A no-compromises, high-tech, and exotic car that went faster than any other roadgoing car, it was decades ahead of its time.
We discuss subsequent generations of the SL including the W113 or Pagoda (230SL, 250SL and 280SL), R107 (350SL, 280SL 450SL, 380SL, 300SL 420SL, 560SL), R129 (300SL, 500SL, 600SL, SL280, SL320, SL500, SL600), R230 (SL500, SL600, SL550, SL55, SL63, SL65), and R231 and how they developed into grand tourers that were neither Sport nor Light as the original name implies. Ultimately, we conclude that the SLR McLaren (C199, R199), SLS (197, R197), and AMG GT (C190, R190) are much closer to the original spirit of the SL.
The Carmudgeon Show is a comedic, information-filled 25-minute conversation with Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Scott, two car enthusiasts who are curmudgeonly beyond their years. Proving you don’t have to be old to be grumpy, they spend each episode talking about what’s wrong with various parts of the automotive universe. Despite their best efforts to keep it negative, they usually wind up laughing, happy, and extolling their love for cars. Which just makes them angrier and more bitter.
Jason Cammisa is an automotive journalist, social-media figure, and TV host with over 250 million views on KZhead alone. Jason’s deeply technical understanding, made possible by a lifelong obsession with cars, allows him to fully digest what’s going on within an automobile - and then put it into simple terms for others to understand. Also, a Master’s Degree in Law trained him to be impossible to argue with.
Derek Tam-Scott still tries. He’s a young automotive expert with old-man taste in cars, and a Master’s Degree in Civil Engineering - which means he knows how to be civil to Jason. Or at least he tries. With a decade and a half’s experience buying, selling, driving and brokering classic and exotic cars, he’s experienced the world’s most iconic cars. And hated most of them.
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Disappointed to hear no mention of the SL65 Black Series. What a hilarious exercise
Lol
Because that car was useless.
@@InsaneBimmer tbh, most supercars are useless! It doesn't matter! If it puts a smile on your face, Nothing else matters! And the SL65 sure does it better
Episode suggestion: I'd love to hear you guys discuss Volvo, right from when they started, the reputation they earned, to where they are now along with their future vision.
Jason, as suggested below, a conversation about hot hatches would be great.
Make the show an hour long. It's so good fun and feels like I'm taking part of the convo having my coffee. About the SL, the R129 deserves a show talking about it alone. What a magnificent automobile that is.
I wish you guys were wrong. As an owner of an SL Class, I unfortunately agree with a lot of what you say here. I think the SL65 Black Series should be included in the list of spiritual successors to the 300SL, mainly because it's just literally batshit insane. I think the Pagoda was a fantastic car, the R107 deviated a lot from where the SL began, and the R129, what I own, was a giant step in performance, handling, and luxury, but I can't ignore the fact that it's a heavyweight, around 4000lbs. It does a great job at handling and carrying the weight that it has, but is not light. I will say, in defense of the SL Class, they are really just an experience. My car specifically is a 1997 SL600 Sport, and honestly, it's hard to match the overall experience. After the 300SL, the SL Class just became an experience. I've put thousands of miles on my SL, and the ride quality, power, handling and amenities are really hard to match for something that isn't a Rolls Royce or Bentley. The hydraulic suspension, 400hp, and the lack of crazy noise make for just an experience. The R129 was such an improvement over the R107 that honestly, the R129 was the next really sporty SL after the Gullwing. I disagree with the fact that you think it's not sporty though. Sure, compared to my Mazda MX5, it's an absolute pig around corners, but the SL Class was never trying to define the formula that created the Miata. It's severely disappointing that the current R231 SL Class just doesn't sell. I haven't had the opportunity to drive one myself, but I hardly ever see them, and now that the AMG variants have been axed, it's hard to say that the SL has a future after the R231. I am scared to say that the SL Class is a dying breed, one of the longest running nameplates on any car from any manufacturer. Mercedes just failed to push for something better and better out of the designers and engineers. The AMG GT, which is very much not an SL Class, has a presence that the SL Class needs influence from, but I think we are all becoming aware that it's just too late. The SL Class was never a high volume nameplate, nor do I think it ever needed to be, but looming regulations, EPA requirements and a lack of sales aren't helping it's case. I've seen more current generation S65 AMG cars than any current SL AMG. As a side note, I was really disappointed when the SLK was renamed to SLC as well, a nameplate that used to mean so much more.
I have a 2018 SL63, its a sports car, so i disagree with a lot of what he said here in the video... SL550 I drove I didnt like very much, but after I drove the SL63 I was sold... there is a new SL coming out for 2022.. The SL doesnt sell for 3 reasons, more people than ever want SUV's, the car is very expensive and incomes have not kept up, and there are more convertibles out all the time, Mercedes makes almost all their models in convertible, E class now... C class, etc.. Im tall and I fit in it well, and I wanted a sports car ... But everyone who says my car is not a sports car is clueless... love how people write articles like this but have never driven one like the young guy across from Jason.. Any car that will do almost 200 mph (limited to 189) is a sports car in my opinion.. I blow away just about anything on the highway.. and people take videos when Im driving and I have caught 3 or 4 people taking a picture in a parking lot.. I love my SL63.. So when people like this guy slam it, I know they just simply dont get it... The car does everything well in my opinion..
J F Your points concerning the current SL’s slower sales are generally correct, but (this is likely controversial) if a car does “everything” well, it’s not a sports car. The SL63 is a grand tourer- a large engine with heaps of power guiding a well-appointed barge. It is not dynamically comparable to the AMG GT, or other traditional sports cars from Lotus and McLaren. Of course, the SL63 might feel sporty compared to your frame of reference, but you’d be better off acknowledging that Cammisa is far more knowledgeable than you on this matter.
@@twfinc6855 the SL63 is a velvet hammer, but it's not a sports car.
@@rohaniyer7589 i dont care what he says, compared to my neighbors mustang GT, my car is lower and handles far better. Not its not a supercar, but it is very much a sports car... the SL550 on the other hand is still and nice driving and handling car but not a sports car. Its entirely differnt than the SL63.
@@astronmr20 Yes it is. I dont know where the separation from GT to sports is, but its between the SL550 and my SL63. It is very sporty in the agressive modes with suspension etc. I have let friends drive it and they agree, it handles great, and maybe its not a lambo or as low but its lower than my neighbors mustang GT and handles way better, and he agrees... Its on the heavy side for a sports car but its still in that category in my opinion. People call the mustang a sports car... if it is then my car is a better sports car.. at least compared to the GT..
Imagine Jason talking with Chris Harris and Sam Smith. Nerd fest!
You guys should discuss the rotary engine.
I thought nobody would ever talk about topics like this... I always thought that cars peaked during different periods: around 1932, 1955, and 1994. Two cars from around those periods were the original 300SL and the F1. Fantastic topic gentlemen!
What car from around 1932 would you put on the pedestal with the 50s SL and the 90s F1? I don't know pre-50s well enough on my own to come up know about what was available.
"You were a stain on the sheet at that point" Tam-Scott's face: (vomit)
Love this stuff Jason! How about a show discussing the history of the “Hot Hatch”?
Drove my 1978 R107 450SL 100 miles today. 11mpg of pure power boad. not sporty, not light, but so comfortable and gets a lot of looks!
P.S. im 26 and yeah you drive them like an asshole hahaha
🤣 You guys need sectioning ... "drum brakes until March '61" ... "not April '61?". LOVE the passion, the knowledge, the geekery, the yumor.
Am I the only one having a soft spot for the R230 generation? I love the SL55 and I think it embodies the AMG way of a luxo sledgehammer much better than any R129 variant. The current R231 might be a good car, but it doesnt look desirable. It seems they spent so much on the engineering that they had only few cents left for the designer.
When I worked for a car dealership, I drove a SL600 and that V12 was a blast. But that was the only impressive thing about it.
How is it humanly possible for Derek's brain to retain so much useless information! 😂😂
he is a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton
not useless in his line of work!
I'm one of those people,you ask me to remember something important or solve an equation I just can't do it but ask me how fast x species of goose flies and the answer comes out in milliseconds lol
Worked in the car business (Mercedes only) for 25 years and drove every SL from Gullwings to R230s. The 113 chassis (Pagoda) is a lot of fun but underpowered. The brakes, however, are still good by today's standard. I was fortunate to road test several times a 250SL with the rare 5-speed. After I replaced the worn shifter bushings, it was an experience beyond joyful.
Wonderful discussion on the SL and its history. I couldn't agree with you two more on the legendary R129. The most glamorous and beautiful of the modern day SL 😊 thank you
R230 is one of the cars that got me into cars! Maybe it’s a disconnect from me being of a younger generation, but the lines of the car are gorgeous and utilize design cues from the epic SLR. I think it should have been included.
Good episode, SLS black is a pinnacle.
This literally sounds like my friends and I taking at the track, profanity and all. Subbed 4 minutes in.
Skipping the R230 generation was a bit disingenuous. For me the R230 is the best looking and, as we all agree the SL is neither sporty or light, an SL needs to be beautiful in order to enjoy just wafting around, which is the SL's strength. Additionally, the R230's hydraulic roof is a masterpiece. Anyone who has cajoled the wife into assisting in the removal of the hard top and then struggled to store the unwieldy roof will appreciate the benefits of that majestic piece of engineering. It may be flawed (as a sports car) but it is a delight to own and continually soothes the eyes with those perfect proportions. Like a truly beautiful woman you never tire of enjoying her company.
Yes, everything about this show. Just yes.
Raumlenker is the one that came in the W201. The 300SL has a Pendelachse.
Thank you for talking cars again Jason
Do you guys read and memorize Wikipedia pages before recording? I'm always impressed by the depth of details you both have with with most of the vehicles you talk about. The sliding the SL in college made me lol
that ending was so smooth, you guys are hilarious joking around with each other. perfect response with that button press haha
Favorite new show, keep it up!!!
How is this series not bigger? Fave car commentary.
Owner of a 1977 450SL here with a few period correct upgrades (Nardi wheel, BBS RAs, suspension improvements) & I have to say, on the turns, it's not the greatest but it loves to cruise at 90mph. Sill, an extra gear would be great. Tire spinning, especially when wet, is fun. I keep my hardtop on. Feels more solid & looks WAY better! I'm into it for $11k from the original owner and it has 60k miles. Giver her ethanol free fuel and she goes. Sometimes I wish she were a more modern 560SL but I'm still thankful to haver her. She's fun!
Thank you, thank you for bringing to light that a R107 can't be steered without the dash scraping your knuckles off! So far you're the only other person that's ever agreed with me about that; most folks wouldn't dare flog one around a corner. I worked at a Mercedes/BMW shop for a couple of years and amongst the other R107s who's grilles incessantly tried to bash the back of my skull in every time I stood up from bending over the engine, I got to drive an actual 350SL 4-speed, what a difference! Not that the manual trans made the tank a sports car, but it did wake up the throttle response a whole bunch.
Please please please never stop making these
Hi guys nice episode but I think the R230 SL65 AMG Black Series is the exception to all what you said regarding early gens SL's following the W113 (Pagoda).
You had me at spectrum analyzer. In addition to being a car fanatic, I’m an audio fanatic. Geezuz bro.
Good cars to talk about.
Groing up in the 80's i always thought SL stood for "Super Luxus" (super luxurious for english speakers). And when i read that it originally meant "sportlich, leicht" in the early 90's i couldn't believe that it should still mean that for the current cars. I still think my originial interpretation fits all the cars after the original 300SL better.
Another great discussion, but no mention of the SL65 Black Series?
I still have road & track magazine from 2003 talking about the new SL and the long lines from doctors, dentists lawyers and enthusiasts who happily paid huge markups for the New Gen sl so they could get it in a year after its release. Stil think they are great looking even though they aren't sports cars like the GT which is just better all around.
yes, and because its not as sporty as the GT lineup they say its not a sports car, ... wrong in my opinion, it is a sports car, especially the SL63
The 190SL was a proper SL. It was very light and was sporty. The suspension was the same as the 300SL and the engine was the 300SL’s engine with two cylinders chopped off and lacking fuel injection. You could also get a Rennsport package to do club racing with it.
I agree Jason the Pagoda does look better with the top on,,,BUT I own one and there is very few great sounds in the world then a 280SL at 3k rpm and above WITH the top off.I NEVER turn the radio on when I am in that car.
Aww... that Derek is so sweet !
AMG GT-S would have made a legit SL. Maybe Mercedes did not design the 300SL but acquired/inherited it.
now that comment I do agree with... Not sure why they have both to be honest.. I have a SL63, but I dont fit in the GTR or GTC GT-s etc... bit smaller..
@@twfinc6855 That’s an interesting comment. I didn’t know the GTS/R was small inside. That’s usually a sign the design came from another place as Mercedes doesn’t do impractical. Did you have a challenge fitting in the SLS? That’s one of my favorite MB.
@@alexmartinez280 never sat in a SLS. but yes less leg room, maybe 1" in a GTR or GTC....and headroom likely about 1" Im guessing also... I am at the 97% for fitting a newer SL.. Im 6'5" tall
So there's a Panigale innocently just hanging behind the Jason. Perhaps we'll get episode about motorcycles? Or few?
can anyone tell me what is the black car over jasons left sholder?
Relistening to this episode and happened to glance at the screen right as some dudes come on camera and checks the fridge. He even glances… recognizes their filming and does it anyway and I can’t stop laughing.
"They're going to quit making it" Looks like they made a new one. Though I would've made the same call as Derek. I never see these, not even in Miami.
Need More Pictures of SL's!
How's that original 231 now? Growing, slowly ?
Either they have an encyclopedic knowledge of cars or thoroughly researched the topic. Prolly the former as they talk so freely with granular references. Regardless, I turn this on and just soak up the info. My friend has an ‘89 R107 and I’m soon getting a ‘00 R129, my first BaT winning bid.
Since the next generation Sl will be sharing a platform with the next amg gt that´s kind of proofing your point....
I've come from the future,the car is ass, weighs nearly 2tonnes much like the GT it's based on,it's just another SL,this time more confused than ever,as confused as the SLS.
SL Sports Light to Sports Luxury
Am I alone in thinking the R231 is good looking? Guess I could never be a designer because I can't even see why people think it's ugly.
Good episode, agree mainly. One, irrelevant exception is that a Euro spec Pagoda 250SL with the 4 speed manual "can" feel sporty and, with modern tires and careful handling, will pull just north of 1G in a steady, large radius corner. BTW, the 230 was naturally gutless, as were all the automatics and I'm lead to believe that the 280 was low compression with emission gear on it and also sucked. I have seen a couple with modified rear setup with what amounts to a heave spring and damper to tame the rear end. Again, I'm told by the owner it's an improvement. Oh, also the 220sl on the 190 body? Very sporty. One competes here in the Adelaide Classic Rally. Almost done, the R230 sl55 was enormous 2 tonne fun! The R230 sl63, was not. The R129, before the late life facelifts, might be the best Merc daily for a sunny location (after the w201 190 2.3-16! )
Agreed the 300SL is a legend and only a few SL's since have given true homage to the car
I absolutely love this series.
You're not the only one.
I can't stop staring at the fridge
Waiting for that guy to come back and get something.
Though correct, aren't you also missing the point? The SL was never marketed as sports (as opposed to sporting) car and where in fact perfectly tailored to their (mainly) US customers who - lest we forget - are the reason why we have 300SLs in the first place
Correct.
As a German I am always surprised of Jason's spot on pronunciation of German words
A year late but there’s a good reason for that, he grew up in Germany from 14 to like 19ish (don’t know exactly how old but I believe he went to college in the US), so he has first hand experience with the language and I’m pretty sure he’s fluent in German although I may be wrong, but either way it’s pretty clear that ALOT of his experience in Germany stuck with him when he came back to the US.
But yes it’s very surprising, generally speaking in America it’s highly academic people that speak fluent languages (although this is becoming more and more of a thing of the past), so it’s surprising when someone as brash and loud as Jason ends up being so articulate in English let alone in German as well! 😂
To be fair: it's his job to be articulate.
I thought I was the only one who remembered that the SLS was actually just a viper. You could literally see pictures of it morphing from viper to sls over time. It was in fucking road and track and nobody remembers.
Not even the SLR should be called an SL in the first place. It weighed 1.8 tonnes, it had exactly the same interior as the SL of its day and, although it was its only saving grace, it even had the same 5.4 supercharged V8, with around 100hp more, lined with 2-3 times the price of an SL55.
I‘m driving a 2013 R231 SL350 with an AMG handling package. Yessss, it‘s definitely not a spiritual successor to the Gullwing 300, yesss it’s not a real sportscar but boy its driving dynamics are top notch and its presence makes jaws drop anytime I take it out for a stint. I think that the dashboard materials used are somewhat flimsy but otherwise I love the thing dearly! I’m working on getting a SLR into my garage... just to scare the sh... out of my Ferrari driving neighbours(...). The SLR is a monster making noises like a... Messerschmitt fighter plane... or was it a Spitfire...?
The SL became a GT car!
What about the sl65 mag black series ?
Forgot the 190 SL
I’ve loved these looks into BMW and Mercedes. Ultimately, I’d love one of these for every icon/car company. Can I request a look at Honda/Acura or Mitsubishi and/or Subaru and their performance cars.
Wasn't that the r129 300 SL 24, not the 300 SL M103 engined r129 (not available in US)?
The SLR Mclaren was weirdly too heavy (3800lb) for a carbon fiber car. I mean the Gen V Viper Track Pack had a steel frame, steel brakes, and an 8.4L V10 but only had a 3290 lbs curb weight. SLS Black Series is a better looking and performing "SL" but are not "light" at 3415 lbs. Koenigseggs have insane HP while weighing around ~3000 lbs, they cost way too much though. Now that's light.
Just as a side note, i don´t think i´ve ever heard an American pronounce "leicht" as good as you do, not kidding. "Respekt"! ^^
Looks like you guys were wrong :D Welcome R232
it's an SLR on the thumbnail...
Winning lottery I would not hesitate to buy Merc SLR taking it to AMG or Brabus asking them to swap it into 6-speed manual transmission… what a machine it would be...
Can Derek have his shirt off in the next episode please?😜
I wouldn't mind both
These could be hour long segments easily.
How about a show regarding brand allegiances. For example Cammisa reviews cars for a living but I believe his first automotive allegiance is to VW. Similarly, I love all cars but like Seinfeld my car world begins and ends with Porsche.
After the 300 SL gullwing. I like the R230 generation the most. Dont understand why you skipped it. I dont like how the R231 looks nor the R129.
what does issimi stand for?
Yeeterson Peterson this ^
nic louw what do you mean
Really strange how they skipped over the R230, and to not even mention the SL55 AMG is just unforgivable. The SL55 is not only beautiful, but it is a beast that handles remarkably well for its weight due to its active suspension (common to all 230's). Add the P30 performance package, and they are awesome. I have to wonder if they never drove one. Come on, guys! P.S. - Check out an SL55 attacking the Hockenheimring and Nurburgring here: kzhead.info/sun/aK-Bn7Fph4qVaIE/bejne.html
Super light !! Pronounced "zoo per" lol
Yes
Alright, I'm calling BS on Cammisa. I just sold a R107 that I owned for 6 years. Daily drove it for a few years, I've put well over 40k miles on it. I drove it hard.The 560 SL will not light up the rear tires, even if you manually shifted into 1st like he said. On a dry surface it will chirp the tires, but it will certainly not light them up. It's true that it has a lot of torque, and it's a ton of fun. But there just isn't enough power or torque to light up the tires. I can 100% guarantee that fact. Trust me, I've tried. However, everything else he said was 100% accurate. I can't speak for any other R107, I've only driven my 560 SL.
Can you talk about Jaguar next!
Do people say posit? Stanford grads do. lol
Beneath the bro act and the crude language there is actually excellent info and a consistent thread. You guys need to be drinking Pabst Blue Ribbons while doing this show.
i type jason cammisa when i want to see a car review. u guys have cars in ur garage, drive/discuss around those cars and make videos, would be more engaging, love the current stuff though
I could be wrong, but the Cadillac CT6 might have beat the SL's aluminum extrusion claim.
The SL came out in 2011,the CT6 came out in 2016
No r107 had a swing axle... that went away with the pagodas
Nice seeing people that alike, rarity online
Doctors & dentists started buying them for their daily drivers and Merc had to put profits before ideals, that's what happened.
Classic case of a model going wrong after manufacturers build the car their customers say they want, rather than trusting their own judgment.
More like Mercedes accidentally killed 80+ spectators on a French racetrack 10 years after ww2, didn’t like the optics and quit racing altogether.
Camisa got schooled?!
I'd have to pretty much agree with them on this. I own and love my 2002 SL500 (R129), but it is no way a sports car - Grand Touring, yes, but not a sports car.
go drive a 2018 or 2019 SL63, VAST difference.. And yes its a sports car compared to the new SL450 or SL550... No one seems to mention the SL63, they just talk about the SL in general.
what about the SLK?
Love the show, death to the people who keep walking around through the set background each episode though
I think of them as extras on a movie set.
Jason and Derek Hyphen Something - what's up with the lighting and focus guys - you look like jaundice has set in 180p ! Boy are you guys missing the boat on the 280SL...LOOK AT IT!.....It's like driving a masterpiece! 15 years ago you could buy a nice one for $20k all day long - now they're near $100k. Loved my 560SL - but they will never appreciate like the 280SL - just too many around.
They should just bin the current SL and name the next AMG GT the new SL
20:30 PLOT TWIST MERCEDES MADE A NEW SL AND IT'S A GT UNDERNEATH... AND IT'S ALL WHAT THE ORIGINAL SL WAS IN THE FIRSTS PLACE
It's ass, weighs nearly two tonnes and handles like a pig on ice, it's more confused than ever, another failed attempt by Mercedes AMG foiled by the higher ups.
I’ve always thought the 107 is hideous 😂
Have to totally disagree. The Boxy 129 doesn't care at all to the R230 and the SL65 and SL65 Black Series are pinnacles of relatively small Mercedes two seat performance cars.
Current SL is just overlapped on both side.... People who want a luxury Benz convertible, they go for S Coupe convertible. People who want a sporty Benz convertible, they go for AMG GT roadster.
Sorry they skipped over the 190sl. My dad’s male menopause car and what he taught me to drive in. Even though I loved it, I had to admit that my sister’s MGB was more of a sports car-more responsive, better handling and more forgiving of adolescent over exuberance.
Why do you call the SLR an SL?
I love the spotlight all the Italian and german cars get on this segment on your channel but how about some jdm stuff
Mike Arredondo History of the Supra???? I’d love that!
Watching and reading stuff that Jason as put out over the years part of the automotive world, he's not really a fan of Japanese cars. He's very European.
@20:28 It didn't age well at all. Mercedes introduced the R232 in October 2021...