Every Zack Snyder Movie Copies This Messy 80s Film
Zack Snyder is a highly controversial director, with people either loving or hating what he puts out. The Zack Snyder Justice League movie sparked a massive fandom that has divided people, and Rebel Moon has only fanned those fans. A lot of his more controversial decisions can be traced to one movie. It's thanks to one controversial film from the 80s that all of Snyder's films are the way that they are.
I revisited this film, and, in doing so, uncovered the blueprint for Zack Snyder -- and why Rebel Moon, the Snyder Cut of Justice League, and even Watchmen are the way that they are.
special thanks to x.com/ItsmeChrisWade?t=vv-nkP...
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction to Excalibur
1:55 Zack Snyder LOVES Excalibur
5:40 Why is Excalibur a Special King Arthur Movie?
7:01 John Boorman, Prior to Excalibur (Lord of the Rings, Zardoz, Exorcist 2)
14:02 Is Excalibur Any Good?
24:26 Is Zack Snyder a Good Writer?
26:46 A Disclaimer Before I Criticize Zack Snyder
29:17 Snyder is a Visual Storyteller at Odds with His Stories
32:24 Snyder's DC Trilogy (Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, Justice League)
39:20 Rebel Moon is Snyder's Excalibur IN SPACE
41:02 Criticisms of Snyder I Disagree With (Misogyny and Ayn Rand)
44:35 Snyder and Spectacle
46:18 I Go Off-Script and Give You My Honest Snyder Feelings
John Boorman's script for Lord of The Rings is online and it is complete gibberish. If you read it you find out that Ralph Bakshi was kind when he described the script.
Another big fan of Excalibur was the late great Kentaro Miura who said he was inspired by a lot of the movie's visuals and tone when making Berserk.
that I can see
Damn! The more you know... 😮
Miura is one of my favorite G.N. authors, have you read the interview where he talks about shortly after coming up with the idea of Gatsu's mechanical hand he saw "Army of Darkness" and feared being called a hack? You can tell he was cool dude.
“The darkest of crimes for a medieval man, robbing churches” - Mallory was a black metal musician before his time.
Mayhem probably would have a few words with him on that one
I *adore* Excalibur... but I recognize its flaws and spectacle. Uryens knighting Arthur with Excalibur *always* moves me to tears, but the movie is also like a fever dream at certain points.
I admit: rewatching Excalibur before writing this video, that scene and the final Avalon departure scene honestly gave me chills. It's such a messy movie, but there are so many great points.
@@agramuglia I haven't watched Excalibur, but his latest movie resembles the seven samurai anime massively, which was also set in the future. lol you can watch all 26 episodes on KZhead.
@@agramugliawhat about it is “messy” he condensed an entire Arthurian legend from the sword and the stone to grail quest into a single 2 hour wagnerian tone poem. the film is an absolute masterpiece
@@agramuglia There is no mess. Every aspect is perfectly placed to assemble an easily understood puzzle, if the person looking at the puzzle has the compatible knowledge base. If you know nothing about Christianity, a painting of THE LAST SUPPER is just 12 hippies eating dinner.
@@eskanda3434well done and spot on
I just came for Helen Mirren (Also, I've loved Excalibur ever since I was an actual child in the '80s)
Don't we all? She was just coming off of Caligula too!
Oh yeah, Patrick Stewart was in Excalibur. Fun fact: he was also in a couple of episodes of Star Trek.
A couple, huh?
Star Trek? Sure, Mark.
Yeah, but we don't mention that Picard series.
@@colinr0380 YOU JUST DID, COLLIN ಠnಠ
@@MarkArandjus Don't worry, he wasn't in it that much.
Tbf, Boorman's LOTR script was absolutely insane lmao
Man, Excalibur is such a good movie. Still influencing Hollywood 4 decades on.
Dude, they saw Zorro. the Marquee is in the clip you provided. Excaliber is advertised as coming out later. Incidentally, in the Joker, Exclaibur and Zorro the Gay Blade are playing at the theatre where the Wayne's get shot.
I was absolutely convinced that Monty Python and the Holy Grail was a merciless parody of Excalibur. Every scene seems to rip into that stupid film. Then I found out Excalibur actually came out a few years later.
so they tried to make a movie that made Sense of Montys version?
Monty python are a comedy group to be fair, whatever they make is a parody of something
Excalibur ain’t so stupid after all
The Holy Grail was more a parody of British society than any specific film about Arthurian lore.
It's actually more a parody of the Robert Bresson 1974 film Lancelot du Lac, which was the first 'dark 'n' gritty' take on Arthurian legend.
Excalibur ISN'T a mess. It does a very elegant job of condensing an extremely lengthy and complex saga into a single movie. People who regard it as a mess just aren't acquainted with the literary sources for the Arthurian story, and their lack of patience as viewers isn't really Boorman's fault.
i think they means visually messy, battle are really frantic
Disney did a bit of a dumbed down version for those people.😂
I adore both Excalibur and Zardoz, their issues included. The Exorcist 2 was laughably bad... just ignore it 😂
its better to see the exorcist 3 without seeing either of the ones that came before if I'm being honest, and I love the Exorcist.
Drugs? In 1970s Hollywood? Surely not!
I think that with Excalibur Boorman knew what he was doing to a much greater extent Snyder does. Snyder is a bit like JJ Abrams trying to ape old franchises he likes without getting why they worked in the first place. Watchmen is pretty much a product of that, he apes the GN but doesn't understand why certain thing are the way they are in it.
I do agree with this.
Yep, snyder has a niche audience due his weird dark unemorional where excalibur, in the worst case looks shlocky fun, which is fun. Oh that he was high on the movie explains a lot vibes, but reagardless fun. Snyder should learn the definition of fun. even in a dark miserable drama you need some fun. Hell suckerpunch is , its not good but probably his most respectable due being interesting. Ok he wouldnt be nearly as director if he did , ok a messy interesting auteur movie is alway way way better than one ruining adaptions by being clearly the wrong fit.
This is why Snyder needs to make his Ayn Rand movie already. Missing the point would be an improvement.
@@gapsule2326deep cuts!
For what it's trying to do: cram all the major beats of the Arthur mythos into 2 hours and 20 minutes, Exclibur succeeds probably as much as is possible. However, trying to do *that* was always going to be a major problem. I wish we could see what Boorman had to cut for the runtime. I know there was supposed to be more of Gawain and Morgana, and Lancelot rescuing Guinivere.
Excailber was filmed not too far from where I lived. And it's weird to think of a Lord of the RIngs were locations were scouted in Ireland rather than New Zealand. Still its funny for King Artur to be filmed in WIcklow, like of all the places for the legadary KIng of England to pull the sword from the stone, its Ireland's Wicklow. AIn't the place I'd pick.
Honestly, filming King Arthur in Ireland sounds like a pretty English thing they'd do...
@@agramugliato be fair Arthur wasn't Saxon or Norse. The original legends were Celtic and Excalibur runs with it with the charm of making being in badly pronounced old Irish and Merlin being essentially a druid. Depending on the version he even defended Britain from the Saxons.
it fits, and ireland looks good. Its way weirder that a lot american series are filmed in canada
he shot Zardoz in the same locations and several of the same extras also pop up
It IS a mistake to call Zack Snyder a misogynist... "Sucker Punch" is a LOT of things, but misogynistic isn't one of them. It's also a mistake to call Snyder a hack... hacks don't lay themselves on the altar to be lashed at. That's what MAKES them hacks. A hack wouldn't take bold creative swings like Zack Snyder does... even if the end-result, like the "Snyderverse" DCEU, is ultimately a swing-and-a-miss. He ain't battin' a thousand, but at least he swings for the fences.
yeah never understood labeling sucker punch misogynist too, it's just plain obvious ain't it. If you think about it it is such a bitter sweet power fantasy for everyone involved -- the characters on the screen, the viewers. The gaming narrative showing us exploitation stuff we all saw in the games and other media.
@@andreyzhuchkov1882 Yeah, the anime-cheesecake visuals are meant to be a feast for the eyes, and the "visual metaphor within a dream within a delusion" story-conceit is something no one who's seen it will soon forget. "Remember, ladies... if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything!"
"Empowering" is a bit of a stretch.
@@RM_VFX Nobody called this film "empowering," whatever the F that means in this context. Its take on feminism is... "confused" would surely be an apt descriptor. But at least it's sincere.
Women in Sucker Punch are LITERALLY sex slaves kept in a dungeon, their only means of escape being death, lobotomy or escapism - which turns them into pinup models. THE MOVIE IS MISOGYNISTIC AS FUCK. Snyder, probably, isn't. He's a 10-year-old boy who somehow managed to make it to 45 (in 2011) without learning anything about social relations or dynamics of oppression. What he did there is a very basic fairy tale story - you know, for kids. The problem is he tried making it into a story for grown ups, by making it about serious and complex issues such as mental health and abuse, with grown up characters... but without ANY understanding of the elements he was handling. He's a 10-year-old boy, making up a story about a pretty lady slaying dragons - but he wants to do it "seriously", so everything happens in the mind of a sexually abused teenager held inside an insane asylum, facing lobotomy. That's a hack job. Passionate and bold - but still a job done by a hack. One can be a hack not just out of lack of interest for the quality of the finished work - a lack of talent will suffice. And while Snyder has SOME talent in visual department (though he manages to prove himself a hack there too - convincing himself that scratched up lenses are good for his production and mastering movies with dead pixels) - he has shown again and again that he has zero talent for any kind of intellectual analysis or understanding of the story he's writing or adapting. E.g. Had he thrown out the sexual framing and made the main characters kids in an orphanage, who then transform into power fantasy Valkyries in the escapism segments - that would have worked far better, it would mean something AND it would make sense as a child's fantasy. Think The Devil's Backbone meets Pan's Labyrinth.
2:23 wait, Snyder mentioned Excalibur and Conan as being inspirations but not Star Wars?
lol
Zack Snyder is all flash no substance, he can make something look good (debatably) but doesn't understand how characters and their world interact with each other, often creating rules and motivations and either forgetting them or ignoring them for Slooooomoooo scenes.
And what grinds my gears about the guy the most is the fact that he shows no desire to self-reflect and improve. No matter how many of his movies underperform, are critically trashed and get memetically mocked, it's always the audience's fault for not understanding him.
But many people, including me, simply like fantasy movies that does not focus much on characters. The issue with character focused action movies is that they often feel the same in a way, as the character development are to often based on a few simple Hollywood tropes that are repeated again and again.
@@steinarvilnes3954 Even action focused stories need some reason for you to care about the characters and every action set peace should advance the plot in some manner. If you don't care about what happens to the characters going through the action and/or the action has no consequences, the action gets boring. If you only want to see the action/spectacle scenes without any story context, you can find them as separated clip from youtube. Watching 2-3 hours long experience for 10-20 minutes doesn't sound worth it to me.
@@SpedeVesku To some degree, some story and character is needed, but to a lesser degree, and for me the characters of Snyder movies is simply sufficient. Also, it depends on your view of humanity. In my view, most humans are really "cardboard cutouts". Walking predictable stereotypes with nothning or little to really add to the world. I simply feel that Hollywood cater to the cultural beliefs of many Americans that the individual have more will and power to improve themselves and develop than they actually have. Also, many non Hollywood movies have more action than 10-20 minutes per 2-3 hours, such as many HK and Southeast asian movies. In those kind of movies, the audience mostly love the actor and his/her work and care for the character because it is that particual actor, be it Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Iko Uwais or whatever.
@@steinarvilnes3954Traditionally even the most jumping the shark shut your brain off and enjoy the ride project still have character and in-universe logic to ground them, this is because for emotional moments to hit the audience needs to be engaged.....Zack Snyder is the antithesis of this he creates the rules and the scenarios but will completely ignore them while still trying to have emotion or depth examples include Man of Steel "Maybe" scene, Army of the Dead "Robot Zombies" "how long does it take to turn" and "I'm looking for my friend" scenes, and BvS infamous "Martha" scene. If Snyder was fun time who cares Director this could be potentially acceptable but he wants these scenes to be taken seriously as they ooze with melodrama.
One thing I'll always say in defense of Snyder is that he's the only filmmaker I've ever known who has used a realistic POV of a character looking through binoculars (in that first zombie movie he made). It might actually be the only film in film history that has such a POV shot!
BvS take on Luthor definitely makes more sense if he was going for Nichol Williamson's Merlin, a goofy weirdo who feels like he's from a whole other movie.
Luthor is the least i have a problem with in the movie. Ther are weasly cowardly luthor versions and , eisenberg has helly fun playing him. He was the least bad thing. And seemed thew only one actually having to have fun.
BVS Lex Luther is the best version of the character because he tricked; Batman, Superman and the audience. Like Batman and Superman Lex also has a public alter ego. He plays the stereotypical socially awkward, weak, nerd. Rewatch the scene where Lex meets both Bruce and Clark. He purposely makes himself not look like a threat. There are only 1-2 scenes where he shows his true face. One is where he is in his study talking about his father and Superman.
@@marocat4749i truly wonder what's the 'other' problems or issues you have with the movie... is is the 'Martha' scene or is it Batman offing in general or both... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
@@godzillazfriction like the ris no superman. The movie has no superman people love that would have such an affect, and its the direction, not cavils fault. also yes if batman has no qualms shooting freaking people with mashinegun, thats not batman, but the punisher. And yeah there are fun campy luthers, he is the most accurate in portrayal.
@@marocat4749 enGlisH pls...
Goodness If you look at the sign on the theater in BvS it says "now playing Zorro, coming soon Excalibur"
I want a version where the movie rhr Waynes saw was Antonio Banderas' The Mask of Zorro. Alas, I don't think Pattinson's Bruce is the right age for it to work.
@@JCIce007 well in any case, they saw Zorro in BvS
@@JCIce007 If anything, I'd guess Pattinson's Bruce went to see The Crow
There's 5 elite level fantasy/folklore/mythology films from the 1980's: CONAN, THE BARBARIAN EXCALIBUR DRAGONSLAYER LADYHAWKE LEGEND
Love the Ladyhawke inclusion here. I would also add in The Dark Crystal
Ladyhawke is so overlooked, makes me sad. Such a great love story on top of all the high fantasy stuff
@@joshuadeboyer9992 i know it's a cliche at this point, but damn, the score really doesnt fit and it drags the movie down a peg.
While Flesh+Blood is not a fantasy/folklore/mythology film, its strong medieval/early renaissance aesthetics, its dark atmosphere and its christian mysticism can earn it an honorary mention.
Ty, legend needs more love
In BvS they DID come out of a showing of Zorro! It clearly says on the marquee that Excalibur starts the next week!
"Excalibur" was AMAZING! As a teenager in the 80s, this film, Ridley Scott's "Legend", "Dragon Slayer", "Ladyhawke", "Krull", "Conan the Barbarian" and, God help me, "The Beastmaster", got me excited for the fantasy genre in films and books. I miss those magical days.
Man that Rob Zombie/Zack Snyder comparison was so spot on I have to subscribe. Both of those guys are solid visual directors, but are at their best when they collaborate with good script writers.
I can't begin to explain how deeply the mythology affects me, but I have been in love with Arthurian legend for as long as I can remember. Excalibur was my first exposure to the subject, and I will love that movie until the day I die in spite of any technical flaws it might possess. It's one of a handful of films that were truly formative to my young imagination, and it represents many of my oldest and most heartfelt ideals.
Messy?! It's a British film based on British mythology for British audiences who know the story. Messy, hah! It's perfect damn you. 👌
Here to just briefly be a (currently lone) voice in favor of Snyder and Excalibur in the comments. You say "the themes are strong on paper but not in execution," but those themes do land for many of us. I want to Thank You for being as generous to us Snyderinos as you are. You never trash-talked us, or him. I appreciate that a lot.
I don't believe it's right to ever criticize someone for enjoying media. I will criticize a film, but that criticism never extends to the character of its creator or its audience... unless the content is particularly depraved or illicit, or the director themselves is just an awful person, like Victor Salva or Roman Polanski. And even then, those criticisms would be very centered on the individual bas actors, not sweeping statements.
You are not alone.
@@agramuglia Zack Synder reminds me of Menahem Golan, writer, director, and co-owner of Cannon films.
Absolutely. One of the best things about 80s fantasy in general, was that those movies get weird as fuck. You truly never knew what insanity was waiting in the next scene.
I enjoy 300 exactly for the reason you pointed to, its ability to be read as a story of people passing down false descriptions of the past. I think the movie is unintentionally capable of being read this way, as it doesn't acknowledge any actual truth at all about the Spartans, but because of how outrageous it is and it all being told to the soldiers in the future like its story time, it lends itself to satire.
Zac Snyder is like so many Directors who think that because they know how to direct a fictional story, this means they know how to write and tell a fictional story. Abrams, Snyder, Lucas .. ideas guys who direct ( though Lucas did not like it ) but also lack any ability to write a script. Rebel moon part 1 is a rich mans clone of Seven Samurai and Army of the Dead is just Aliens but Zombies with extra steps.
ALIENS (1986) was yet another structural remake of THE LOST PATROL (1929).
@@calmvibes3709 interesting. I will look into that 👍🏻
I watched Rebel Moon with my wife. We both cringed at how bad it was, yet we could not stop watching it. Just like a gruesome train wreck. There was enough there that was interesting to keep us watching it. The robot voiced by Anthony Hopkins was my favotire part of the film.
Zack Snyder is good at ideas and visuals but bad at stories. Putting those ideas together. Zack Snyder is a good person but his cultish fanbase is garbage.
The irony of playing the clip of Snyder saying he likes The Fountainhead because its about the struggle of a man fighting to make what he wants to make, and then 2 minutes later you go and say one of Snyder's biggest faults is he doesn't take into consideration how the audience might perceive his story. You are essentially denying him his agency by saying he should be writing and directing for others and not himself.
But Snyder makes shit, and the more control he has over a movie the worse it is.
"Rebel Moon wants to be Star Wars" is exactly right. Snyder tried to sell the script as an actual Star Wars-universe movie, but Disney/Lucasfilm rejected it back in 2012. Knowing this going in to the first one, it seemed pretty obvious to me that he simply made enough changes to not get sued and eventually found another studio to fund it (Netflix). I like both parts of Rebel Moon as-is, but I definitely think they would've been better if they stayed within the established confines of a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. And they would've been way, way better than the three Disney sequels.
This is, hands down, the very best review of Zack as a filmmaker, his hit or miss works, objective but also nuanced, arguments backed by research, with statements backed by intelligent and well written dialogue. You sir have a new subscriber and fan.
Arthur got Excalibur from the lady of the lake the sword he pulled from the stone was the sword of the king with made him worthy to be king.
I’m a dyed in the wool Zackolyte. The critique here is entirely legit. What I love most about this is the acceptance that “I don’t like this guy’s stuff but lots of people do and there’s a reason” was something I heard - if you forgive the Excalibur quote - with gladness. Great gladness. All of the commentary on Snyder’s lack of attention to character is on point. I think he’s less interested in character and more about archetypes which many people intrinsically jam with . Hence his fan base. This was a great video, subbed half way through… look forward to more.
I'd be fine with Snyder's focus on archetypes if he could actually competently execute on those archetypes...but he seems incapable of that because I don't think he understands them. He doesn't seem to understand how things like actions and words convey characters outside of the most superficial, surface-level ways and, as a result, he contradicts his own archetypes constantly.
Ive often wondered if the visuals come to Zack before the story. Like he builds his stories around key visual moments as opposed to crafting sequences that fit the stories
Other directors like Alfred Hitchcock did it better.
The difference between Zack Snyder and John Boorman is that John Boorman was a good director.
Excalibur is not “messy” movie it is a masterpiece of riveting cinema. From the opening notes to the ending. Best adaptation of Arthurian Legend on the big screen.
One Reviewer I know Who Reviewed Fantasy Films called “Here there be Dragons”. He Basically states that “Excalibur is about Grandeur and Awe! But doesn’t Tell anything New, nor does it go out of its way to Explore the Myths Characters! It’s a Retelling of the Old Stories, but it’s all about the Pretty lights.”
@@danielramsey6141 bad take. Excalibur is a classic retelling of arthurian legends and it does do many things new the way it weaves it into a wagnerian opera fantasy is something that had not been done before on screen before or since
@@danielramsey6141 That’s just willful ignorance. Arthur interprets himself in a way that is entirely new when he says, “I was not born to live a man’s life but to be the stuff of future memory.” That is an acknowledgement by Boorman that EXCALIBUR is not a film meant to depict people realistically but allegorically. Their speech and actions exist for symbolic purpose. The ideas represented by these symbols have far greater value than any individual. That is also the meaning of the Grail in EXCALIBUR which differs from Mallory and Arthurian tradition by conflating Arthur with the Fisher King. Boorman and Pallenberg are the first two guys who actually give voice to the Grail’s sacred questions AND allows Percival to give the answers, as well.
35:19 the scene isn’t that simple, Superman saying "save Martha" just stuns Batman and prevents him from thrusting down the spear ,Superman in Batman's mind is a criminal with a case and the punishment for this special criminal is death, and when lois says “it’s his mother name” Batman rebuilds the case in his mind in light of this new information (this is what is he doing from the moment he lifts his foot until he throws the spear, thinking and rebuilding the case). The flashbacks aren’t to tell you that Batman's mom’s name is Martha, it’s to teach you how Batman thinks. -He Remembers the nightmares vividly, he skips to the perceived important moments and he thinks in reverse (he rewinds the nightmare, he goes from the second nightmare to the first.) - So Batman rebuilding the case, he goes from ”it’s his mother name” to when he first learned of the kryptonians and Kal-El with Zod’s transmission “My name is general Zod ………. for some time …… But he is not one of you…. to Kal-El, I say this, surrender within 24 hrs or watch this world suffer the consequences.”.
Fuckin' hell, JAWS is my favorite movie of all time but not every idea I have looks or feels like the stuff in it. In fact, most of them don't because the narrative isn't tonally or thematically similar. The fact that a single film controls every aspect of his entire aesthetic is troubling. And EXCALIBUR of all movies! In fairness though, if he adapted THE FOUNTAINHEAD, I would totally see it. I think Ayn Rand is worse than Hitler, but I would definitely pay to see what he would do with it.
I know you're being hyperbolic (or hope so, at least) but why compare Ayn Rand and Hitler? Once was a demagogue who caused the deaths of millions, and the other was a somewhat libertarian writer that hated communism and every other form of collectivism.
@@freman007 Hitler convinced 79M people they were superior to the entire planet and had the right to conquer it for an entitlement of pride. Roughly 21M people died when it was over and if you include Soviet casualties during Stalin's mobilization purges, that number can be about 70M. Rand convinced about 4x that many people that the social contract was a slave collar and to abandon it completely. The biosphere is collapsing due to the ambitions of the sociopathic financial cult she created. If successful, 8.1B humans and all other life on Earth will perish. Rand is worse.
Big Snyder and Excalibur fan but i think you totally hit the mark here. Honestly, I get really confused about how gross some Snyder fans can get, both bc (as you said) he himself seems super chill (and I love all his random homoeroticism) but also bc his strengths are his weaknesses depending on your taste-it makes so much sense to me that the stuff I love about him might be a barrier to entry for some. His fans often treat him as a sacred cultural cow which i think Snyder, more than anyone, would find ridiculous
He needs to hire quality established writers. When he has a strong story he's fantastic. On his own it's the writing of an excited 7 year old.
Damn, young Helen Mirren is a feast for the eyes! 😂
You forgot to mention the Merlin Miniseries starring Sam Neil as Merlin and tells the Arthur story from his point of view.
I'm one of I think a fairly small number of people who read Watchmen as a graphic novel first, loved it, and still enjoyed Snyder's adaptation. And the reason I praise it is because while he definitely lacquered everything with high-gloss to the detriment of Moore's nuance, it's one of a very small number of movies that truly feels like watching a comic book in a good way. I did not enjoy most of Snyder's DC movies but at their heights they (and Sucker Punch, which I have a lot of mixed feelings on) captured the same feel. I would love to see him get to do more comic book movies, and to adapt them by cutting most non-essential dialogue so that the actors' expressions and the viewer's emotions can create context for each story. And if Zach Snyder is ever let near DC again, give him retconned or elseworlds stories that were controversial, and let him go nuts. For all the reasons I did not enjoy most of his DC movies, he's one of the only people I could see making a truly watchable adaptation of the GL Parallax storyline.
I’ve watched a lot of Snyder’s work (from the 2004 remake of Dawn of the Dead to Rebel Moon) and from what I’ve noticed in a lot of his work is the idea of deconstruction. Be it the Han Solo-esc Character of Kai in Rebel Moon being a traitor, or the Superman vs Zod fight being and the destruction caused by it being the main catalyst for Batman in BVS, to even the fast zombies in Dawn of the Dead (2004). There’s nothing wrong with deconstructing genre norms or tropes, if you have a point or something to make that involves deconstructing said topic then there’s nothing wrong with that. The issue is with Zack’s deconstructing is that there really doesn’t seem to be much of a focus on those deconstructions. In Batman Vs. Superman and Man of Steel, they deconstruct the idea of “the no-kill rule.” however they really don’t dwell on this in either movie so it doesn’t really get the message across.
I think a big issue he has is intention and ramification. He knows the chips need to fall in a certain way, but he doesn't understand why it's important they land that way.
The biggest problem with Kai is that there's just that: "I made the evil-looking character actually evil, I am so smart, don't you think?"
Have you ever heard Snyder justify Superman killing? It's childish at best
@@rubensborges1334 I agree it’s completely childish.
@@rubensborges1334cmon, be enlightened to state his 'childishness'...
How do you not understand Excalibur?
That Roger Ebert critique is baffling to me. I saw this when I was very young and loved it and also comprehended it. No clue why Ebert seemed to be so befuddled by it. Maybe I just need to watch 3 or 4 Breadtubers explain all the nuances I have missed the past 40+ years?
ooh, I know. ebert was a big f@t ball of gas. in a time where no one but he, Siskel, and a handful of others did this, they were revered, undeservedly, as ''experts''. imagine only getting 4 people's opinions on ANYTHING. I'm 64. it was the way it was then. but very one-sided.
Gotta disagree on Zardoz, loved that movie
Great video! You've sold me on not hating Zack Snyder anymore. 49:44 - I do have to disagree in the small way that I thought parts of Rebel Moon were boring. It feels like 40% of the film is slow motion.
There's part of humanity that is just purely mythic, and this movie is about that part of humanity.
I read the script for Excalibur first and still think it's one of the best scripts I have ever read. Then I saw the movie and was dissapointed by the final result.
Heard this take from patrick h william, but love your angle on it!!
I've been an admirer of King Arthur's greatest hits for well over 40 years now and this is the most intelligent take I've seen on it. Thank you.
I know a couple of people online who would disagree with your points about needing more directors like Snyder and movies like his because of their driving beliefs that character-building is more important for storytelling than visual spectacle and have a growing hate for blockbusters like the MCU because of it. It's basically a desire for more arthouse movies with less mainstream and more niche appeal, even though I am against niche appeal because that's how gatekeeping is created if something niche becomes mainstream when it becomes more easily accessible to everyone.
the solution to that is to gatekeep against the gatekeepers
I disagree with the literal statement "We need more directors like Zack Snyder." We absolutely do not need more shallow, repetitive directors who have no concept of character or storytelling beyond putting a cool picture on the screen. We DO need more directors who are passionate about showing us something beautiful or epic or magical or truly a cinematic version of a painting, but realize that that is only a piece of the puzzle. All the things that Zack fails at are also necessary elements of good filmmaking. And a director who can do those things is, by definition, not a director like Zack Snyder. So I do agree that we need more directors who have the passion for the visual artistry that Zack has, but they also need to be more than that, and possess the passion for story, character, theme, humanity, and narrative flow. Zack does one thing very well, but a director has to do a hundred things well. He is not any kind of template, he's just an example of how to do one part of the job with drive and passion.
52:14 I do agree we need more bold directors, but I dont think Snyder is it for this comparison, because even a bold director should be able to dive into critiscism and see if there is something in their body of work that they did wrong. Yet here is Zacky, complaining almost a decade later that people didnt like his Batman killing, but never actually reflecting on why the audience.
Why I partially feel that Zack needs to improve on his work-life balance at best and find other works that he can fall in love with and be inspired, rather than just one life-changing movie. The spark IS there, and there's a talented director in there. The problem is that he needs to learn when to just call it a day if things aren't exactly working out for him.
If said "audience" has almost 0 to nothing knowledge of source material (the actual one, ie all 77 years of it and all its history and the Why for no kill/no gun and how different writers handled it, etc) in the first place what is there to talk and to whom? At best you will have video games with ludo-narrative dissonance (ie Batman and Red Hood will punch one guy same way, Bat's detective vision will say he is just sleeping, Red Hood will register 0 pulse) and also will pretend that superheroes/Batman in Non-Snyder movies never kill just because they said so , even if realistically (ie point from which people even accuse Snyder's DC characters of killing) people they "non lethally" punch or worse can be very well dead.
@@FirstnameLastname-my7bz I think you are underestimating just how popular a character Batman is. Like, even people who only engage with him in one medium (games, movies, animation, comics, etc...) will know at least the basics of the character, and the no-kill rule is a pretty basic thing for him. "Oh but in the other movies it looks like he did killed or should have", thats never a point of discussion in the story itself, you can just assume he didnt do it there even when it looks like it should have happened. That suspencion of disbelief is far from the most absurd thing a regular movie has asked of its audience, never mind a super hero movie. But even then, even if you are completely in the dark with anything Batman related, because of the way the character is presented throughout the entire movie, it doesnt look like Superman befriended a fellow superhero, it looks like he befriended a psychotic serial killer. And I am pretty sure that wasnt intentional from the narrative.
@@GabrielLopes-jj8rx no it's just lazy mental gymnastics, you really don't know Batman at all. In fact many of you clinging to no kill Absolutism which was NEVER part of character (not to mention in comics All superheroes don't kill, Avengers too), neither was Ras Al Ghul training Batman or whatever you think is "basic thing" about him. And frankly Zack was born in 60s and grew up in 70s and 90s. You don't even know that Batman got his automatic grappling gun only after Tim Burton films (in which he also killed Because writers researched original comics) and before that Batman always used just manual rope. You can assume he never killed anyone in BvS just like you easily assume he never did in your favorite video games, cartoons or movies made by non-Snyder
@@FirstnameLastname-my7bz Dont see the need for this passive aggressiveness, since it gives me a negative light of you, but regardless, yes, Batman has killed...back in the 40's, which is something both Kane and Finger disliked doing. Ever since, the no-kill rule has been an integral part of the character, what you are trying to argue is like saying that Spider-Man being someone that always has money problems is something recent, no, its part of the character, none of those have anything to do with random wikipedia facts you listed nor Snyder's age. And no, you cant assume Batman didnt kill someone, not when the director later goes on interview to brag about it, he does verything in his power to take away that room for suspension of disbelief
Much like Excalibur, Snyder films are much more impressive when you're 13 than they are later in life. I would also hesitate to call his tiresome sepia color grade a visual feast today.
Fun you compare Zach's films to Excalibur because that's one of my favorite films of all time. Only seen the first few minutes of this video because I don't like watching videos about Zach Snyder but I love your work. Binged some of your videos the other day and just finished the Harry Potter video before starting this one. That video was amazing.
I agree on all your points, and think in the case of Sucker Punch it works to the movies benefit. The lack of deep characterization more easily lets the audience project themselves onto the characters.
There's no way to know if Mallory was guilty of anything he was locked up for. Knights in his day could and would be imprisoned on trumped up charges for being on the wrong side of a conflict.
That is true. Historians debate the accuracy of a lot of historic criminal accounts, from everyone from Mallory to Elizabeth Bathory.
... except Gilles de Rais. He was probably guilty
49:25 "But, you are--from start to finish--watching that movie... It is at no point boring." I beg to differ. I gave Rebel Moon a shot, but I didn't watch the whole thing. After opening with a phallus going through a space vagina followed by slow motion wheat harvesting, I had decided I had enough. I didn't even make it 5 minutes, and I don't think I missed anything.
Man, this makes so much sense. I was wondering about what his deal was, but this actually great.
I'll always love Snyder and Zombie, like you said they're incredibly similar. It's like they absolutely don't give a shit about pleasing anyone except themselves. They don't care about norms, numbers, executives, it's JUST what they want to do, like kids with toys and a burning passion for the crazy ass movies they want to make. That makes them flawed but SO oddly genuine, passionate and fun - no brains all brawn perhaps, but these days, when things are increasingly corporate, when everything that isn't an indie is just a plastic product in a sea of similar product, that feels like water in the desert. I HOPE Snyder would find a writer that holds him tied to good character moments, subtext, meaning. That anchors him so he doesn't just go off and do ALL style (Rebel Moon, at least these first cuts, are 95% style), but no matter what I'll always like that he goes against the grain in pretty much every way. So many directors today crank out soulless movies, but Zack's are all soul, all fire and passion and fun - he just needs a writer to elevate his flaws, to keep his boyish tendencies in check a bit so when the action hits it feels earned.
I don't think Excalibur is a mess, it was a masterpiece.
I've watch a lot of video essays on Zack Snyder, and this is easily my favorite. It's so refreshing to see someone critical of Snyder while still being good-faith.
*watched
I enjoyed your video, but we would not agree on some points. Not that that is a problem. But I will try to convince you of a nuanced point of Excalibur that has always stood out to me. I keep a very short mental list of moments in movies where good things happen to good people who are third tier characters at best. For reference, a prime example of this is the mother in Miracle on 34th St who has adopted a Dutch speaking child and the utter joy on her face when Santa speaks to the girl in Dutch. Excalibur’s portrayal of Kay makes him a good, humble supportive brother, but doesn’t overplay it. But, at the end of it all, Merlin makes sure to come visit him also as he did Arthur. That type of subtle acknowledgement of how Kay did not walk the route of Jealousy and deserved his moment amongst all others IS subtle, IS human and IS everything that you claim that this movie lacks. Think it over. It is ok to change your mind.
I understand your argument, but i just don't find that humanizing enough there. It feels a little too detached, imo, though on paper sounds human. If that makes sense. I would have liked to have seen more overt humanity.
I know I'm getting political but when I learned that Zack Snyder was a HARD Libertarian Objectivist, a lot of his films made a bit more sense to me. To him, Watchmen wasn't the story of ethics, identity, power, and meaning. It doesn't talk about the dangers of blind worship. To him, it's a story of Gods among men, and how the world failed to see their greatness. Of course Bruce Wayne risks a 99% chance that Superman is good, because the world is black & white with no gray. A 1% chance that he's evil is just as absolute. Jonathan Kent's sacrifice wasn't a tragedy, because he CHOSE that sacrifice. Lets imagine Kent expended all options, and the sacrifice was a last resort: if he had no other choice than to sacrifice himself, an Objectivist would call it a tragedy. But there WERE other choices. So this was supposed to be uplifting.
There's so much that's just "off/wrong" with Man of Steal's Johnathan Kent... The moral arc being spun during his scenes is a mess, and it's unclear if the movie wants us to agree with him or not.
Please! What is that music clip at 23:44??? I’ve heard it before-but there’s not enough to Shazam.
That is one of the songs from The Exorcist 2 soundtrack
I still think Excalibur is a much better movie than anything that Snyder has done, and I don't think it's messy.
I love Excalibur, I know it's not perfect, But it's beautiful and entertaining.
I think you give Snyder way too much credit. Because if he was trying to make his movies like Excalibur, he failed miserably.
I want to agree with you. But I can't. How many other modern directors can you name that get talked about as much as Snyder? Admittedly, I'm a Snyder fan. I LOOOVEEE his artistic eye and style. His movies are style over substance. Yet what his films don't express with words, they express through visuals. Granted, that's a brutal gamble and relies heavily on the audience pouring in all their attention and thought. The (in)famous "THIS IS SP..." I don't even need to finish the quote and you don't even need to have watched the movie to immediately know the scene. It's so famous it's part of our culture. It has been part of our culture for 18 years now. Sure, you never questioned the meme-ability of his work. And just cause something is meme-able or memorable doesn't make it good. I personally think the Martha scene is good, cause I see my childhood hero facing an existential crisis, almost becoming what he set out to fight. That's why the death of the Wayne's is shown in the opening. Yet I get why this scene gets so much negativity. And I don't blame the audience. In a weird way, it's the "THIS IS SPARTA!" scene of BvS. It shares the same silliness, when watched out of context. Excalibur also has silly scenes that kind of block the path to full on success. A great part of Excalibur banks on the relationship between Merlin and Arthur. Nobody would say any of the actors was bad. Yet the scene with young Arthur and Merlin out in the forest at night is just too silly for me to take seriously. There are a few more, mostly during Arthur's younger years. Yet the good things outweigh the bad by a fuckload. Same for Conan the barbarian. No matter how much I enjoy Arnold's films and movies, he's not a good dramatic actor. Even on a technical level, Conan leaves a lot to be desired. Yet, my god, the good parts aren't just good. They're phenomenally good. The cinematography. The compositions. The lighting. The sets. The music. I will never forget the shot at the opening of Conan where the guy stands against the bright light of the sun, center frame, while Thulsa Doom's riders ride past him on both sides, while Riders of Doom plays in the background. It's an unimportant, but stunning sight. And that's where Snyder succeeds. His actors don't need to talk. His visuals and compositions do the talking. His films and movies speak more than words could express. And when his characters speak they roar.
@@RudiW1510 " How many more movie directors can you name who are talked about as much as Synder?" Dude, I'm sorry to tell you this, but you are stuck in an echo chamber if you think normal people are talking about Snyder. Ask a random person on the street who Zack Synder is and they won't know. He's only talked in film circles and Synderverse fanboy circles and it's almost always negative. For comparisons sake, Jared Leto is probably talked about more than the average actor, but any time he's brought up online, it's usually in a negative way (eg. His acting in Gucci was horrific, he was the worst Joker, he's going to ruin the Tron reboot, etc.) He hasn't made a good movie in at least a decade, and the box office agrees with me. His lies about Rebel Moon doing as well as Barbie have already been exposed.
i respect ZS for one thing. being completely totally unabashedly himself. in a world of pretenders he is absolutely real.
The only Arthurian films I can think of with the full sword-in-the-stone to death cycle are Knights of the Round Table (1953) and the miniseries The Mists of Avalon (2001). 300 seems especially timely now, namely the element of the bribed senator, given how many US politicians are in Putin's pocket. I love both Man of Steel and My Adventures With Superman, even though I suspect that the latter was inspired in part as a correction of the former.
Also the knightmare is a vision but still a dream where superman gets to them and Bruce literally wakes up from it and about the doomsday thing i mean he can't go against a indestructible kryptonian like zombie, all he can do is try and help weaken it while the more godlike heroes try and kill it which he did since he is a only human.
The least of problems with that terrible movie.
The part where you say that Snyder would be a good cinematographer has already been proven not true because he was the cinematographer for Army of the Dead and his cinematography was not good. I think that you are being too nice to Snyder as a filmmaker. I like some of his films but he's always the biggest problem with his films. He's bad at story and character and you can be bad at one of those but you can't be bad at both. Snyder was an interesting messy filmmaker 10 years ago but stagnation has set in. We need interesting filmmakers, even filmmakers that I personally don't vibe with but we don't need him. He adds nothing besides some cool visuals from 10-15 years ago. I wish him well in his personal life of course but I can't wait until he's in the Renny Harlin stage of his career. A once buzzy director that was always more concerned with visuals now directing low budget trash that nobody even talks about.
Wow, never knew Snyder was a huge Excalibur fan but it does make complete sense. I feel like the problem with Snyder is that he just sort of aped Excalibur, just like he aped Star Wars for "Rebel Moon". I agree that Excalibur required some major "suspension of critical plot analysis" at points, but I think one of the reasons that movie made such an impact is that it's an epic in every sense, and it's no coincidence that it uses a lot of the music from "The Ring" operas by Wagner. It's about mythic figures who aren't really supposed to be human or relatable, yet who are flawed, and make human mistakes. And Boorman masterfully brought the whole "history doesn't often repeat, but it usually rhymes" proverb to life with Arthur's entire arc - someone who was born through sin (i.e. the r*pe of his mother, via trickery), and eventually is brought down by the fruits of his sin (i.e. his incest, albeit being tricked himself.) There were also lots of metaphors in there, like Excalibur representing Arthur's integrity and honor, and when he abandons it just to defeat Lancelot - it shatters, and that impure act leads to his downfall. SO much good stuff in Excalibur, but when you look at Zack Snyder's work, it's like he can only comprehend the visual language, and can only mimic the moral/emotional/symbolic themes Boorman was able to put into Excalibur (some more effectively than others, for sure.) I agree Snyder is a great cinematographer, but I think we need more directors who can connect with themes and humanity.
Snyder is a terrible cinematographer, his recent movies he shot himself don't look great.
Their intentional lack of humanity is also reflective of the source material by Malory.
Zardoz was absolutely awful. I'll never understand why it was made.
I would love you and anyone else to take a look at the script that John Boorman wrote for a lord of the rings adaptation. He and Rospo Pallenberg wrote quite honestly the most uniquely weird story that I've ever read.
I began reading it for the video, but realized that deserves a deep dive in and of itself
@@agramuglia yeah it’s bonkers
i'm one who "can't stand" Snyder's films. But i like Excalibur. I don't like the way he films people, and his visual style gives me a headache. my favorite visual directors are Lynch and Almodóvar, so it should come as no surprise that Snyder's style is a giant turn off for viewers like me. Nothing against the man, i know nothing about him and harbor nothing personal. Just don't like his movies. I also think Excalibur is very British movie, communicating the British discomfort with emotion. Boorman seems to substitute myth for simple human emotion. If you want to see emotion, watch how Almodóvar shoots women or how Hitchcock shoots his male protagonists: the human drama is clear. British culture substitutes wit for human emotion.
Why no mention of Terry Gilliam's struggles to get his Big Vision on the silverscreen?
Alarms and excursions! that was the name of the first dungeons and dragons fan magazine in the 70s alarums and excursions I got to find out when that phrase was first used
"come father" I will never hear that line the same way😂😂😂
As a child of the 80's, I "got" films like Excalibur. That said, Mr. Snyder is no John Boorman.
to be honest, if I want visual spectacle, Ill watch a michael bay movie instead.
Comment sections on a Snyder topic are always so ironically cringe, so edgy and hip to hate on em. That said; Snyder desperately needs peers that tell him no / offer guidance.
When you think about it, Uther showed humanity towards Arthur when Arthur was born in Excalibur because it was all lust in the beginning. Lancelot showed humanity for Arthur when he tried to tell Guinevere to stay away from him. And Arthur could have killed Lancelot but he didn't. Arthur showed humanity towards his son but his son rejected him. When the whole knighting scene is shown, it shows humanity. There are other scenes as well when you go back and watch the film. I totally get your point about the Holy Grail scenes.
The director had a choice between making the lord of the rings or excalibur. He went with excalibur because the director couldn't envision how to protray a giant floating eye which was probably for the best.
Mess? It is fantastic!
The pause at 49:50 is why I subscribed.
I've watched both part's of Rebel Moon and Will I Want to like them there ok but honestly the revues are better then the movies themselves. 😥💔😥💔😥💔
You make a lot of good points, but I do not think that Rebel Moon is an entertaining movie, even from a strictly esthetic PoV. I tried to watch it, but I gave up 30 minutes in, and let the movie play while doing something else. Beautiful images are not enough when your characters have no substance, no personality. I've seen Excalibur. It's a beautiful movie and, while flawed, it is, at the end of the day, an okay movie. Not great (for all the points you touched on) but entertaining none the less. Rebel Moon is not entertaining. Because, to entertein your audience, you need, at the very least, a somewhat logical story. A story you can follow and adhere to (even if it's only to a point). Rebel Moon is way too incoherent and downright ridiculous to be entertaining. You can't even hate watch it, because it is too hollow to generate hate. I did not watch Rebel Moon 2, because the first one was not enough to make me curious to see what happens next, not even to make fun of it. It's too boring for that.
Hey TonE, that was a great video.
I absolutely love the movie Excalibur (1981)
This is why I stopped listening to critics when I was a kid, everything they didnt like I loved, everything they praised as great and timeless I couldnt stand. Especially S&E, those guys never like anything I like. I like things other poeple like for different reasons. I dislike things people dont like for different reasons.
Overall, not a fan of Zack. But liked your essay. I'm a big fan of Excalibur and your criticism of it is fair. Have you seen The Emerald Forest by Boorman? Would love to hear your take of that film. Does it suffer from Boorman's lack of character study? Thumbs up btw.
I admit, the Emerald Forest is something i haven't seen, but i am interested in seeing
@@agramuglia I'm confident you'll find there's a lot to like about it.
I don't care what anybody says and as much as I am extremely disappointed with Rebel Moon part 1 and part 2 and I didn't care for the Watchmen I will say this, Man of Steel to me is perfection and will always be the greatest Superman movie of all time for me because I love it that much
"Point Blank" is a good early Boorman film.
300 and Watchmen are his greatest movies. In those characters are portrayed in a exciting way. Brave 300 and suoerheros whose days are behind them. I also love the underrated Sucker Punch. What a ride. Snyderverse should also be restored.