1891 Salvator-Dormus: The First Automatic Pistol
The Salvator-Dormus has the distinction of being the world’s first semiauto pistol, being patented in 1891. It is chambered for the 8mm Dormus cartridge, and holds 5 rounds in a Mannlicher type clip. Only about 50 of these pistol were made, mostly for an Austrian military trial in 1896/7 (this particular one has an 1897 Austrian military acceptance mark). The gun uses a delayed blowback action, with the shooter’s finger pressure on the trigger acting as the delaying force - not exactly an ideal system!
In Austrian trials (which were the only trials the gun entered) it was rejected in favor of the 1898 Gasser revolver, which would serve until Austria began adopting semiauto handguns in 1907. However, it does hold the distinction of being the earliest automatic pistol to actually be manufactured in more than toolroom prototype numbers (even if its military trials didn’t actually take place until after other guns had come on the market).
Cool Forgotten Weapons merchandise! shop.bbtv.com/collections/forg...
/ forgottenweapons
If you enjoy Forgotten Weapons, check out its sister channel, InRangeTV! / inrangetvshow
I think the most remarkable thing about these 100+ year old guns is that none of them are completely obsolete. newer guns are of course more practical and efficient, but they still use all the same things that made the originals memorable
You could say that the human body is just as squishy as it was in the late 1800s.
@@AshleyPomeroy 🤣
@@AshleyPomeroy probably more so, unless we're wearing armor.
These are obsolete when ammunition for them becomes unavailable. Lack of ammunition turns a gun into a door stop. Ammunition is far harder to make than most people realise.
You can't make a circle more circular..
So this is what people on the internet mean when they say "Fap?" First automatic pistol
ha! that's pretty clever
yeah...sure...
We can only assume
Stop fapping around and watch more Forgotten Weapons vids.
There’s a lot of cycling though
It's a handsome pistol, despite the problems it must have had.
10/10 would f@ck that pistol
@@johngagnon1365 lmao wtf
@@johngagnon1365 YEA SAME HERE MATE
@@fargoth391 pppppppppppppppppppl
"Bloop." - Ian McCollum (2017)
I have severe sleeping issues due to stress. I've used to take sleeping pills but stopped because they dulled my senses. Later I found this channel. This was my cure, not because it bores me, but because Ian's mellow voice and calm self relaxes me. Seeing someone so absorbed in sharing their knowledge in such a humble and simple way relaxes me. A cup of tea, a FW video and off to sleep. Praise Gun Jesus.
Cristóbal Enríquez This is also true for me! For me as person of Art I'm always enlightened and relaxed knowing there are people who really love what they are doing
OSSUS Maximus precisely, I do art too, maybe it has something to do with it!
He's the new Bob Ross!
I really thought i was alone on this. :)
Cristóbal Enríquez Search up a youtuber "RelaxingASMR" he has the best ASMR voice i have heard.
Fascinating. Honestly this pistol seems totally usable even in today's combat situations if it wasn't for one thing: Why only 5 round clips?! This seems to be a common and questionable limit of pistols from this era. You would think competing revolvers would spur inventors to at least include 7 rounds in a mag/clip...
Most European revolvers had 5. Americans had 6 shooters. So it just made sense as it was literally the only thing to compare it to. Plus, almost all rifles used 5 round stripper clips and had 5 round internal mags. So it made sense in that context.
You can reload faster.
@@gregoryfilin8040 But since youre already making a revolutionary weapon, why not try to make it hold more bullets as well? Youre already in non-conventional territory. Also there were guns, if not pistols, that held much more even in the 1800s. Im sure an inventor would have been aware of at least some of them. Why would you just compare it to the common revolvers?
Now thats a tactile trigger reset!
So, too much grip strength and it might not cycle. Too little and the bolt might fly out and hit you in the eyeball. Nice.
It's called trigger discipline. :-D
The Examined Life (of Gaming) "The gun exploded? Well, hold it tighter next time, pansy!"
As shady as half the games you review. Lol
Let's get this out on tray
Holy trigger slap Batman
6:37 New gadget: tactical chopsticks
😂😂😂
The delayed blowback on this one is very neat, because it kept the gun simple. For the shooter it is always the matter of being used to the gun and to expect the force on the trigger to push against the finger. The shooter might even devolop a feeling of the right force to hold the trigger to get the gun working best. No gun for troops though, only as a personal weapon for an officer who can afford to purchase and field his own gun.
"No gun for troops though, only as a personal weapon for an officer who can afford to purchase and field his own gun." Ive always wondered about that. Couldnt a simple soldier find a way? If my life depended on the gun i use (and my skills, obviously), i would try to do anything i could to get a good one. I would sell whatever possessions i have that arent essential or perhaps try to get a loan. If i knew i was going to war, id sell my furniture, my nice suit, my tools, even family heirloom like silverware or any kind of jewel i might have, just to get the gun that outclasses 90% of the other guns. If i die, none of that will serve me anyway.
@@LikexnerGood point. I really don't understand why a lot of soldiers in WW1 didn't have a sidearm, especially not a good one. And I completely agree, I'd sell everything I have if it meant possibly surviving a battle that otherwise might kill me
This would be cool to see in BF1 seeming that a lot of the guns in there were never used in combat during that time
too old and too impractical even by WW1.
@@tlshortyshorty5810 colibri:
yeah!!! I love this channel. learning so much about incredible firearms
My man! Ian the Gun Whisperer! Another gun I would probably never see if not for this guy’s dedication. So appreciated.
VERY cool! I have heard Ian reference this a few times but never expected one to turn up. LOVE the finger delayed blow back action!
What an interesting delay mechanism! Now that we've seen the first semi-auto pistol, we gotta see the first traditional semi-auto pistol with a slide.
i think it was the browning 1900
I hope there is a M1900 video at some point. It's discussed surprisingly little for such a seminal pistol.
Ian has videos that cover the entire development, from the 1900 to the m1911
There is also a good video about the development of the early semiatomatic pistols.
Badpvppaladin not talking about the Colt pistols, but the FN Browning M. 1899/1900
Thanks Ian, I love forgotten weapons I see things I never knew existed, and things I know about but have never seen
Ergonomically and stylistically beautiful. I wish I knew more stuff about guns. I like old pistols, mainly. Thanks for the posting!
it crazy to think that within 100 years we went from that to the glock
crazier to think...in less than 100 years...we went from the first airplane to walking on the moon... around 50 years..
Even crazier (well, maybe equally crazy), there are people alive now who remember candlestick phones, name/number phone exchanges (i.e. "Operator, get me Nassau 4-4438, please.") and party lines who now own smart phones.
More so when you consider that most of what makes a Glock work was developed 60-70 years before, well, the Glock.
crazy, when you think, that winston churchill lived through an age, in which he participated in a cavalry charge with lance and sabers, and witnessed the dropping of the first atomic bomb.
+MrSven3000 ... Well, for some values of "witnessed".
Fireplace guy must have the coolest firearm collection in the world. All videos at this location are incredible! Thank you, Ian.
Yes. Though I am less sure *all* of these guns are owned by the fireplace collector. The owner of the home with this fireplace has done interviews with Ian...
Wonderful videos Ian, thank you!
This one looks amazing. Hard to believe it's so old.
ITS CALLED A MAGAZI-...... wait ._.
Lol.
Clip fed pistols are cool
@@AntonEugeneLanthier Yeah, I don't know why aren't there any modern clip fed pistols...
@@juanandresmendezmartinez8024 I really want one, the old ones are expensive
oh but it STILL hurts my ears to hear clip...i got let it go this time right lol
This channel,in my opinion,is what KZhead is all about!
In theory, wouldn't the handgun have a tendency to bumpfire? The fired round forces your finger forward for a split second (which resets the trigger) but your brain isn't fast enough to react, so technically after the trigger has already been reset you are still pulling the trigger back (bumpfire)? That's kind of what I'm picturing here. Anywho, once again Ian you continue to impress with your knowledge of firearms!
You need to keep in mind that that an earlier patent date does not mean that the item was the first one invented. There is a period of time (usually a year) in which a patent can be applied, and even more time until it is issued. Thus, it is quite possible that an invention that was made in March (for example) may have a patent implied for until November, while an invention completed in June could have its patent application made in September. Moreover, there can be months or even years of delay in the patent office between application and issuance of a patent while a patent examination is conducted -- one may sail through the process while another may not.
great video ian
new fave forgetten weapon. cheers ian
Very nice video. thanks for sharing.
Is that rod you put down the barrel just a chopstick?
Yes.
A man in the southwestern US demonstrates the functionality of an Austrian handgun with a Chinese eating utensil. It's a weird and wonderful world we live in nowadays.
Also know as "Asian disassembly tool"
Probably someone pointed this out already but the "Karl Salvator" in the patent was Archduke Karl Salvator von Österreich-Toskana, a member of the House of Habsburg. So aside from their (involuntary) contribution to genetics, the House of Habsburg also sort of invented the self loading pistol ;)
Having the clips fall into the grip is kinda cool! Not that I'm a firearms designer or anything, but it's mighty clever. Just stuff 'em in, and when you're done the grip conveniently hangs onto the empty clips for you.
A beautifully designed gun from a more elegant age.
Much appreciated.
Thanks . Interesting presentation as usually. I am moderately interested in guns. Don't have any but its sophisticated mechanics is interesting. Your presentations are really very well done. Thank you again.
What an amazing and unique firearm. I think the 1891 Salvator-Dormus can claim to have the best ever locking mechanism in an automatic pistol (when it was patented . . .)
Great video, this was really cool.:D
Nevermind a new appreciation for Dormus, I'm getting a new appreciation for the red table collection... Is, is there a stable with unicorns out the back... ?
I thought I was clever when I thought of "hey what if the initial trigger pull would add some sort of extra resistance to the slide to make a simple blowback gun" and it's literally how the first semi-auto pistol ever made worked.
very advanced and practical weapon ,surprised they were not popular
Very cool, thanks for sharing.
wow, that's really impressively elegant and ergonomic design! especially compared to other early semiautos like the mauser c96.
Damn, now I really want one. This looks like an amazing pistol.
That thing is soo cool! Elegant and sexy. Austrians made some of the neatest unique firearms.
8mm tiny cartridge. The Door Mouse is the perfect name LOL. Actually a really cool pistol. Truly before it's time
Fascinating!
I would think that to some extent many hammer-fired semi-auto pistols would behave somewhat as delayed-action blowback pistols since the mechanical advantage of the slide operating the hammer would change as it travels rearward. Depending upon how the hammer interacts with the bolt, one could arrange things so that the hammer would have to move further during the first millimeter of bolt travel than during the second, third, fourth, etc. That would seem a simpler and more reliable way of controlling cycle timing than using the operator's finger, and I can't really imagine anyone thinking the operator's finger would be useful for that. I would think it more likely that the trigger was pushed forward as a way of resetting the sear.
Quite a slim and nifty thing compared to the other early pistols with toggle lock, like a Borchardt c93 etc...
Hi Ian, love your channel. I would love to learn more about the Bergmann Mars pistol. I didn't know until recently that it was used by the police in Denmark (where I live) before ww2. The Bergmann Mars is kind of over shadowed by more famous pistols like the Mauser Broomhandle or the Luger.
Great video! I feel like AJ Ordnance Thomas .45 is similar to what Salvator-Dormus in this vid in terms of delaying mechanism. But I guess one could also say using trigger finger pressure and actual grip pressure from your palm is different enough.
You are right that it seems rather modern for being so old. The general format is very modern. It would not take a lot to make this design take detachable magazines. Strange after all the designs we have had, we end up with the form factor of the original anyway. I guess he was really onto something ahead of his time.
Such a cool and beautiful handgun, would really like to own one of those
This is such a neat pistol.
I want this rebooted in a modern cal with a proper blowback delay. I'd even keep the clip config, that seems a bit more efficient than dropping a mag to insert a fresh one.
so smart design !!!
Big thank you to Mr Red Tablecloth. Ian did you get new lights, or was there a big window to your right?
Thank you for this Ian, wonderfully informative video. But it begs the question, what came next?
The Laumann came later in 1891, then revised in 1894. Then the C 93, after those models the floodgates opened on semi auto pistol prototypes starting in 1894 & 1896.
I really like that clip dropping idea
It's an amazing idea! You don't need to worry about the empty cartridges laying around on the ground!
that trigger delay reset would probably let u bump fire the hell out of this thing.
I'm sure that there are components in this gun which were influenced by previous designs - after all, that's just how progress works. Even so, the Semi-Auto Pistol was such an important design advance (which integrated them all), that it caused a revolution, leading directly to the development of some of the most iconic guns ever made.
Magnifficent! It's so elegant, so nice looking, I wander if it's accurate and good to shoot.
Someone should remake this gun in .22 calibre it'ed be a really cool piece of hardware. Great video too :)
very cool
Awesome!
I can just imagine the feel of pulling the trigger on that little fellow, your finger would have to feel the pushback from the operation of the gun. Makes me wonder how many failure to eject there were when folks felt that and fought the "kick" of the trigger?
Hmmm, interesting fact might be that the Salvator part of the two guys who invented or developed this gun was Archduke Karl Salvator of Austria, a great-grandson of an Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire while the Dormus guy was just a simple Count, the european equivalent of an english Earl - so in their time quite a bit High Society both of them
trigger thing that goes up?
mistergreene2 F*CKING BAN IT
"fully semi automatic clip fed short-barrel pistol"
Would love to go back to the wild west days and see the first guy ever who whipped this out at a high noon duel and see the other guy's reaction.
you should do a video on the ar 9mm breakdown pistol
The thing about the pistol storing up used clips until it's full and then dumping them out the hatch reminds me of what happens if you leave the ejection port on an F(S)2000 closed. Now I need to go watch that video again.
That thing must have an incredible trigger slap.
this is a cool gun!
I really like this video. A very cool pistol. I really like the way the bolt is charged. It honestly seems like a very good design for people with weaker grip strength. Put that handle against a table or ledge and push down with body weight. Really cool little gun.
Sorta like the modification made to the rear sight on the M9A1, though easier to use.
M9A1? I'm going to have to look that up. I'm still learning about a lot of fire arms. My wife has very weak gripping power and cannot charge most pistols for home defense. She cannot lift up an AR-15 for more than a few seconds. I've been looking into a lot of weapons (pistols) that can help her get around this problem. Know of any others?
I know there are some 3rd party accessories that put grips/fingerloops on the back of some striker-fired handgun slides (glocks especially), though I can't think of any handguns with charging handles built-in. I think in situations like hers revolvers are generally the recommended way to go. As for the M9A1, IIRC they flattened the front face of the rear sight notch so the edge of a table or similar surfaces could be used to rack the slide one-handed in case of emergencies. Like getting shot in the hand. Or maybe that was just the M9 series in general over the 92fs.
Well, the revolvers I looked at probably had too much kick for her. Literally she can only lift around 5 pounds in each hand for any extended period of time. A cup of coffee held to her chest eventually becomes too much for her. She is sick and until she recovers I worry about her safety. So I'm trying to learn and I've owned my AR for awhile and I never thought I'd need more for the house. However, she is a different story. Do you know of any low kick revolvers I could possibly look into? I did read about the Chippewa Rhino series of revolvers. With the barrel underneath I've heard the recoil is much less, price is high though. Looking for anything that might work for her. Know of any good low recoil revolvers?
What about a slide-mounted red-dot? Never tried one but Ian carries a GLOCK with one and likes to use it as a cocking handle. If she's recoil sensitive, perhaps look at rimfires? Better to have some gun than no gun.
What looks rustic compared to modern handguns all of a sudden becomes intricate like a watch in a few short minutes.
It was not only the first auto pistol, but also the best auto pistol--at least for a few months. Maybe more since don't know about those that came later.
I'm thinking that the ability to retain clips in the butt could be used for 1. to prevent clips from falling to the ground in the field and becoming damaged or dirty or lost so they can be reused, or 2. filled clips can be kept in the butt for easy access via the bottom gate? Were any of these options the gun's creators or used practically? Great video as usual, Ian!
I know may sound different but what about the laumann bolt action that he later made into a blowback pistol.
I'm curious but it seems from the video that pulling the trigger also serves as a bol assist making sure the bolt is fully closed before firing. Is this the case?
Handsome toy no doubt. I'd very much wish to possess it.
I really like this pistol
No surprise it's part of Fireplace Collector's dragon horde of treasures. I'd love a tour of his entire stash. Very nifty and modernish designs.
I'm getting a strong Mars Automatic Pistol vibe from this one...
Grüße aus Österreich! greetings from Austria!
Nathan Weiß VIRIBUS UNITIS
Do you think there would be a trigger reset on this thing, or would the trigger come up so far as to reset itself?
I asked for a video on the Schonberger-Laumann, and you exceed the request by finding a semi-auto pistol that was even earlier! Time to correct Wikipedia, eh?
It's weird hearing Ian say "Clip release" when holding an auto loader
If this pistol used trigger-actuated lever as delay, how much would the recoiling bolt kick on the trigger finger? The shooter might have a very sore finger after some clips of ammo...
Probably a lot less than the rest of the pistol kicks you in the hand.
A lot would depend on how wimpy the cartridge was. (I'm going to guess pretty wimpy, just because they pretty much all were in the early semiautos. Except for that maniac Gabbett-Fairfax's. :)
ZGryphon in addition, most guns with dubious locking mechanisms tend to use cartridges of dubious power.
peak fireplace.
So if you pulled the trigger to fire a live round and tried to hold the trigger down, would the blast be strong enough to force the action? Or could you prevent the action from opening that way?
So does the trigger / blowback delay system cause a painful trigger slap on firing??
Did this pistol shoot rimfire or centerfire cartridges? And how was the trigger on this pistol
Can imagine some big trigger slap coming from that delayed system
Holy trigger slap
Extremely cool. As usualy, but today even more.
the OG forced reset trigger
Nice mech.
Does the Federov Avtomat still exist ? If No, are there replicas around ? If Yes, can you do a shooting test for them ?
You can find some surviving examples in Finland, with at least one in the Finnish Military Museum.
Plenty of them in Russian museums.
+JeromeZP TV Really ?
+GreenHellTube Is there a video for live firing of one of them ?
+JeromeZP TV Don't worry I found it, but really low quality :V
Something before the Bergmanns? I'm shocked! -Jen
Is it really a delay for the blowback or a strange way of making a disconnector? The blowback of the bolt forcibly resetting the trigger for the next shot?
How would the current tactical marketing guys sell "Trigger Slap Delay" as a high speed low drag feature? Perhaps: Instant tactical reset, you don't need an audible reset, here you can feel it.