Wing Chun Face-Off: Comparing Lineage Differences!
2023 ж. 1 Жел.
109 582 Рет қаралды
Today we are comparing our Wing Chun forms from 2 different lineages! This is a very interesting video and I hope you guys will enjoy it!
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Does any of our form looks similar to yours?
IP Man wing Chun more advance
for me both of you are good and when it xomes ro dight it depends on the person on hkw he use her techniqe both of you are good i hope some day i learn wing chun to form philipines❤️
wing chun is not famous in the philipines i hope someday we have wing chun school here cau se i really like it 🙁
Similar to White Crane
Yes, but that's because my sifu was a disciple of Francis Fong as well (and his guro was Dan Inosanto)
Not a Wing Chun practioner, but been involved in martial arts for over 40 years and had the pleasure of cross training with many art forms, the part that interested me was the difference in outcome of the horizontal fist and the vertical fist, both small circle subtle adjustments giving two different attack opportunities and both disguised within natural movement. thats why I enjoy your content Mr Lee.
Have you tried FMA? Arnis?
@@user-rm5ro9qr1z I have tried FMA, Pencak Silat and Moro Silat (Mindanao), not crossed trained in Arnis, but have trained with a couple of Arnis experienced guys that have formed a system called Keysi.
Horizontal (twisting punch) was invented purely to cut with gloves on.
@@raydrexler5868 maybe, but its useful without gloves.
Thanks for writing that comment for me. 😅
I have found Kevin Lee's form is practiced in a more karate like way with more time, a more definitive snap at the end of his techniques.
Great crossing paths with you brother! I hope I see you in Tokyo again soon!! 😃🙌
Thanks for showing your styles!
I hope so too!!!
Kevin, your Style looks more like the Ip Chun school. It‘s always interesting, but Wing Chun really depends on the person who teaches it and has to be adapted for everyone.
It shouldn’t be adApted that’s why there is so much shit wing chun
@@PooleAcademyofWingChun a misunderstanding, sorry, of course the form should be the same.
i dont have a form, but dad did teach shingi bahqua and taichi so i recognise most of the motions and i did notice kevins stance was closer to northern stance than his sparing partner (or maybe it was other way round i always getting the knee & foot angle mixed up) but pretty sure its southern style that has knees and toes pointed in for there horse stance and starting position
I really enjoyed this one. Seeing the subtle differences, but more importantly, having them explained. This is the sort of thing I have been interested in for a long time.
Coming from Korean arts (both Taeguk/Poomsae TKDO) I found this so interesting to watch. Both technique and doctrine/ethos breakdowns was awesome to see them dive into.
As someone whos done 15+ years of wing chun this is so interesting to see differences in lineage 🤝🏼 Both so different to what i Train/ Teach Loving the content
I noticed the discussion about C-stepping and how it’s meant to be a setup for a foot sweep. We do C-steps in Karate too. I never got a satisfactory reason when I first started out in modern sport Shotokan but after doing some digging and watching Iain Abernathy, Patrick McCarthy, and others I’ve found the main purpose of our C-step in Karate is ALSO for setting up sweeps, hip throws, and other takedowns. Good stuff!
That's awesome
THE C STEP HAS OTHER PURPOSES TOO. IF YOU STEP DIRECTLY FORWARD YOU WILL CONNECT WITH YOU OPPONENT'S SHIN, SO EVEN IF NOT SWEEPING OR THROWNING, YOU AVOID THE LEAD LEG. THE OTHER REASON IS ALTHOUGH IT'S A BIGGER MOVEMENT THAN STEPPING FORWARD IT IS LESS TELEGRAPHED AS THE WEIGHT DOESN'T SURGE TO THE OTHER LEG AS IT WOULD IF YOU JUST STEPPED. TO SEE, LOOK AT YOUR HEAD IN A MIRROR WHEN C STEPPING COMPARED TO JUST STEPPING YOUR FOOT FORWARD TO THE SAME POINT. WITH THE C STEP YOU CONTROL YOUR WEIGHT. ALSO AS 100% OF WEIGHT IS ON YOUR ROOT LEG YOU ARE NOT COMMITTED AND CAN REVERSE THE MOTION OR PERFORM A KICK INSTEAD. IF THERE IS ANYTHING YOU THINK IS ODD IN MARTIAL ARTS ALWAYS ASK THE REASON, NEVER JUST GO THROUGH THE MOTIONS BECAUSE YOU DON''T UNDERSTAND A MOVE. YOU DO YOURSELF NO FAVOURS BY JUST GETTING THROUGH A PART OF A FORM, AS YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG AND INGRAINING BAD HABBITS
Hi Kevin and Sifu Nate, Thank you so much for making the video. I've practiced Wing Chun under both the CST lineage and currently the Leung Ting branch, and I suppose I'm closer to what Kevin is doing compared to Sifu Nate. Having said that, I fully support the idea that wing chun practitioners in this day and age, should stop the "my sifu is better than your sifu" internal discord, but instead sharing and comparing the techniques from different lineages to learn and appreciate how the techniques are taught and applied from the different lineages. These cross learning videos (the one that Kevin did with Jesse Enkamp re Wing Chun and Karate similarities) help to educate everyone that there are more things in common in so many different types of martial arts rather than the differences. In fact, the ultimate form of martial arts, in my mind, is not a specific form, but rather the culmination of the individual's strength, intelligence, experience, and spiritual being that allows said individual to successfully handle a dangerous physical encounter with other human beings by appropriately acting and/or responding to the physical movements of his or her opponent at the time. For example, if there is an incoming punch and a person successfully and intuitively parries that punch in a manner that would be considered a textbook pak sau in wing chun, but that person doesn't even know what wing chun is, would that still be considered a successful pak sau? Does it matter as long as the punch is successfully parried? To me, these videos and collaborations are positive progress in the development and evolution of wing chun as an art -- it allows an open, collaborative forum for practitioners from different lineages to share and compare notes of how things are done in their respective lineages, without the negative baggage of oh this won't work etc. Wing Chun is a living art, and it lives through the experiences and insights of all of the practitioners throughout generations of teaching and learning. My dream is someday to be able to say confidently like say the famous line from Leung Bik (portrayed by GM Ip Chun) in the Ip Man: The Legend is Born: "Whatever comes out from my hand, that is Wing Chun." While I dont' think I'll get there in my lifetime, I think the educational and insightful videos published by Kevin Lee really help other practitioners like me to learn and appreciate the beauty of Wing Chun as a martial arts. Thanks, and best wishes.
Well said
It was really cool to see two different people doing their version that was awesome
Oh this is awesome. So cool to compare and contrast lineages. Hope to see Kevin meet Adam Chan for wing chin practice
Amazing video I never expected to see Sifu Nate and Kevin Lee in one video. Those Wing Chun forms were so flawless regardless their variations
This is great! I love comparing and contrasting different styles. Currently I’m looking at the different versions of Karate Kata between styles to research applications of the movements. I think cross referencing styles is really useful for that sort of thing
I have studied and learned techniques from both of your channels. Great to see y’all together. 🙏🏾👍🏾
What an awesome comparison. The gems in this video are so many! Thank you Siheng!
Thank you for the video, it was a refreshing comparison that made me remember a lot of things usually left "in the process of the movement", there is reason in focus, and perspective with true reflection can be visionary.
Watching you both, I see aspects of both your lineages in my own form. Love your vids Kevin. Would love to see discourse between yourself and The Kung Fu Genius on all things WC. That would be fascinating. Love and respect to you. Matt Jorgensen, Victor Harbor Wing Chun, Australia.
Brilliant! Been asking questions of different lineages for a while. Not one person thought of doing a video like this! Next get three different lineages at same time to perform please Kevin.
Kevin's forms are closedt to what I do since I practiced at Francis Fong about 20 years ago. I first learned from Sifu Shawn in Middletown who is Moy Yat lineage then when I moved to Alpharetta GA I learned from Francis Fong. There was I guy who I went to High School with from Vietnam who did snake style wing chun & I knew a Filipino who did a branch of that style too. I also attended a few seminars on pin sun side body & William Chung lineage Wing Chun, so what I do isn't a single lineage. One of the weapons I learned was a hatchet as a Wing Chun weapon.
Love your. Channel. Always sharing, and working in a positive way 🤙💥🔥
Very cool comparison!!! Thanks! The forms I learned are similar to yours as I mostly learned under a student of your Sifu.
Great video bro. Always love seeing the small differences from the different lineages. I too am from the Jiu Wan family.
Kevin Lee is like baby Jet Li haha would be great to see you do some stuff on the big screen
I could watch this stuff all day. Fascinating!
I love this. It’s about fostering growth and understanding between same discipline different lineage and also different disciplines. It doesn’t mean we have to agree we just need to get understanding. This is what I think all martial artist should strive to become. It’s about learning and growing through our individual paths. There’s no real right or wrong. Just what’s right for you and what works for you. Keep these amazing videos coming Kevin and thank you Sifu Nate for doing this video!
Great vid Kev!
You have to go all the way through with Chum Kiu and Biu Jee now! Show us the difference!
I heard the Pang Nam lineage is particularly focused on clawing and elbows. Or that they seem to focus more on it. I have also read that the Snake Pattern lineage has a longer range of engagement than the others,because the have a training exercise called Huen Sao and Suen Sao(Snake Hands)
Makes sense Wing chun is based on Praying mantis Snake Chin-na Different styles of crane Chan chuan H-sing-i
I had a book on long fist talking about sticking hands .. If I remember correctly sticking hands is based On 2 sensitivity drills One from black crane And one from Praying mantis
@@nicholasgreen339 ever saw anything on Snake Pattern Suen Sao ?
Thanks for this! I would love to see more comparison videos.
Pretty cool comparison. I do a vintage dance and you can see the same kind of variation based on the linage of teachers as well; who was doing what for what reason. It's interesting.
Interesting differences, my lineage is under Yip Chun. Our chain punches are from the elbow, so the punch auto-aligns itself as the wrist is relaxed.
Very interesting comparison, it's inspiring to see the differences between these versions of Siu Nim Tou. 👏👏👏 I first learned the form from watching Mr. Ron Balicki's video, and eventually learned it formally from the late Sifu Yip Ching. It's much closer to Kevin's version, only subtle differences here and there. Look forward to more of this BRO! 🤩🤩🤩
Fascinating comparisons good job amigos
Great stuff Kevin. I follow Sifu Francis Fong and you a lot. I'd like you to cover Wan Kam Leung and Yuen Kay San lineages as well. Truly appreciate your work.
That's the Style that i train. Wan Kam Leung practical Wing Chun
Enjoyed this very much!
Interesting video. Kevin's techniques look more similar to what we learnt in London, but we did also dabble with some JKD too.
studied Tao of Jeet Kun Do like many and get to coime back to WC and see how some technique had modernized/evolved. I am so glad i found your channel.
You guys went through the first form and it's different from how I learned from my sifu. I don't even know my lineage, but I got really excited and am curious why it's so different
Same with no mention of lineage, but mine seems to be mostly a blend of the two and yeah, it's so interesting to learn.
Really enjoying these latest videos on WC. Would be great to see you investigate Tai Chi and see if this internal art compliments the modern MMA based style you practice.
Hi Kevin yours looks the most simmilar to ours. I am nearly 20 years in yip man>chu shong tin lineage. I was lucky enough to train with cst before he passed. There is a saying one of my instructors told me "its not the position but the condition". When we train we would spend hours per day working on making sure the movement we do, whatever it may be, is supported by our bodys natural structure rather than relying on musclular strength. Anyway hope that helps 😊
Hello, my name is Josh. I study wing chun gung fu under Sifu Augustin Fong in Tucson AZ. Our first form has a double punch in it. If you have time, there are some youtube videos of Sifu doing his forms. Our forms look different but same. I love your videos and what you do for the wing chun community. Keep posting much respect 🙏
It's only subtly different, but I guess if I was changing a martial art which I loved I would only change small parts like that. So it makes perfect sense.
You cook potato into chips, finger chips, mesh potato,boil, at the end of the day all are potatoes...
Really appreciate the fact that you expose in a very positive way every martial art. Martial arts and fighting sports must be brothers, not enemies ...
Very interesting... thank you for the open-minded, comfortable comparisons.
This was a super dope video!!! Thank you for thinking of it.
Could you do a comparison with Yuen Kay San lineage and Gulo Village lineage in the future?
double that, that would be cool to see, and a great conversation.
I am training Wing Chun for more than 30 years. One thing, learned over the years: No master has all the answers. So it’s a good idea to cross train in different linages IF you have enough experience. It’s not recommended for beginners. Every linage has its advantages and also drawbacks. In my country 20 years ago there was something like war between the linages, especially Leung Ting and and the others like Wong Shun Leung, but also William Cheung and Lok Yiu. To me, it all was because of money. It was a big business at that time. Concerning the concept and technics, it was totally ridiculous. Every master emphasizes different aspects. Some like more pressure, others prefer sensitivity while others concentrate on sparring. For me, I found out, that after many years your body tells you what is right for you. It depends also on your fighting spirit. Are you more aggressive or more a counter attacker? Are you strong and heavy or more small and weak? So, you have to adopt your style to your personality. In the beginning, I started with Leung Ting, which is very popular in Germany. After 10 years I also analyzed different Linages, especially Wong Shun Leung und William Cheung. I also looked at Randy Williams, Austin Goh, Lo Man Kam, Lok Yiu, Tsui Shang Tin and many more. Later I compared my style with different types of Tai Chi, Kali and Silat. But my biggest advancement was with Rolfing, which is a special type of body refinement. I highly recommend Rolfing especially for practitioners of international arts. After seeing and learning all this, I systematically examined my original style in every detail and adjusted little things that could be optimized. It is important to know that some things are retained for reasons of tradition and respect for one's master. I have freed myself from such things and subjected my entire program to a rigorous analysis. As is so often the case in life, this does not mean that you are finished. You learn your whole life and should always question things. A wise teacher once said: "If your Wing Chun looks the same today as it did 20 years ago, you're doing something wrong" I think, that is correct.
I started in Randy Williams style. What do you think of crca
Finally the two Wing Chun greats meet!
Awesome guys good to see Nate And Kevin Lee doing videos together
The ending flick fist is only used to generate "second energy" after the primary energy is exhausted. It should not be thought of and trained as the "normal" Sun Character punch. If you do that, you will most likely damage your knuckle/wrist due to applying energy at the inappropriate time and distance and bone alignment angle. The flick wrist second energy motion is used to dig in even deeper to tear inner organs or tendon stressing only AFTER you reach the maximum "normal" punch penetration into the body. You should not training punching with the flicking extension and think that how we are supposed to punch normally.
Very cool! Would love to see a collab like this with one of Eddie Chong's students! I always loved the way he taught his Bak Mei from a wing chun platform! 🤙
Hey WC brothers! Great video. Kevin if you’re in Southern California, please stop by at Wing Chun Temple. Sifu Nate did come several years ago. Also pleasure seeing WC videos with different perspectives. Peace and blessings…
Wing Chun Association of Canada is more similar to Sifu Nate's. Our Hands are kept higher, Tan finger tips are eye level, and feet are picked up for footwork. 10:49 we call it a Circle Step and we use one horizontally, ironically just barely sliding not picking up the foot, to get into Neutral Stance after the Bil Sau. Sweet to see the differences, @KevinLeeVlog thank you for the video!
Very nice video collaboration of Wing Chun Styles. More comparative movements. 🤙😎
I mostly studied in the Leung Ting (WT) branch from Ip Man. Was first introduced to Wing Chun through the William Chang (WC) via Bruce Lee (teachings prior to JKD) mixed with a style called Wu Wei Gung Fu by Prof. Cowles, a student of Bruce Lee that retired near where I grew up. All of the forms have many lessons. I have spent time learning from multiple different lineages, it has been very interesting.
Great vid!
This is like watching Batman V Superman. 😆
Its really interrsting seeing these and then comparing them to the ones i train in germany, its a bit like mixture but also again completely diffrent very interesting
I’ve seen some footage of Wing Chun competitions online. I was wondering have you ever attended any of them Kevin and I would suggest you make a video on them because I’d be very interested in watching a video on the topic.
My Sifu did variation of the guy with red hoody. He taught me when I was a kid 12 years old. In 1984. He studied Wing Chung in California at Bruce Lee school after he came home from Vietnam war. He was friend of my dad. I grew up in Oklahoma USA. At that time we were the only Kung Fu studient there. A lot of Karate and Korean fighting arts. I feel fortunate that I had a different martial arts.
that short pulling and finger stabbing, it looks like something from hakka style. i've seen it practiced in pak mei and lung ying. interesting enough, my late taiji teacher also taught that exact movement as 2-person drill, and i thought it was influenced by yiquan push hand :p
Yeah, it's like a spring I think is the idea; if you pull them then they might resist and pull back and then you suddenly switch and allow them to pull your arms up into their face.
I hope to see guys train together in future. Thanks for the video.
Truly amazing!
Cool to see ninja Nate
Very interesting comparison. I've never been too interested in the different lineages in terms of where they come from, so if what I say about the lineage I did next sounds stupid, then excuse my ignorance :). The lineage I studied had Grand Master Samuel Kwok as the head of the lineage, but was always referred to as 'Original Ip Man Wing Chun,' as I understand he learnt his Wing Chun from Ip Man's son Ip Ching. Regardless, the part 7 of the dummy form, without the cross steps that Sifu Nate refers to here in some lineages, is how we did the dummy form, and I originally learnt it that way. The cross steps I have seen you doing, Kevin, in this and other videos, are brilliant though. This application makes more sense to me, so I've adopted that too. To my mind, as I've come to understand fighting and Wing Chun in particular from sparring etc., (albeit in different martial arts to Wing Chun as we didn't spar in Wing Chun, just Chi Sao), over the years, fighting is all footwork. So things like stepping on the foot, and using the sweeps from the footwork, is a much better usage of the system's potential. Particularly since it's such a close range system. Having seen you applying these, I realise they were always there hidden in the form, so to speak, but just didn't think to use the footwork that way, so thank you, since my instructor never showed this. Nor did we practice the Sip Ma/C step as a sweep on section 1 of the dummy, which I have adopted from you. Otherwise, our Siu Lim Tao is pretty much exactly what you are doing, Kevin, except the section 2. We would open section 2 of Sil Lim Tao like you from the double Lan Sao, into a double Jum Sao, but without the extra arm bit Sifu Nate does. But then we would do the rest of this section exactly like Sensei Nate, with the Jum, Tan, Jut and then Biu, straight arm pull down (Gum Sao), then up with the top of the hand (what we called a Tai Sao) before closing back/chambering ready for section 3.
Hawkins Cheung trained by Yip Man .my instructor many years ago..
I trained a cho sung ting, jim fung liniage, through louise ozidacs in melbourne. it was rare to collaps the elbow in the tan sau, elbow strikes etc, these functioned a lot like a shear aplicable at many ranges. eg A tan sau conveted to a fook sau then into a strike either a downward palm to the chest, face or collar bone, a forearm strike neck chest face, a elbow strike with the shoulder and step in behind it side of the head, which with bill gee set up for rotational colection and head neck and face locks and throws. foot/ knee/ hip work collecting the balance. I was just beginning to help instruct when i left 20 years ago. others will know more and my memory is distant. it was curious to see the elbow structure " collaps" for a strike. With interest and curiousity. I enjoy your exploration. ( appolagies for miss spelling of technique and folk.)
Interesting comparision !! Hope there is more to come 😊 greetings from germany -,-
Interesting and informative 🇯🇲
fascinating how many variations there are in WC ... ultimately though it is a 'principle' rather than straight laced 'technique' geared system so hence open to per lineage interp' nuances. I also see so many obvious cross-over's to Lung Ying (Dragon) which I studied prior to my WC training.
It is not just differences exist between styles, but within the same style taught by different teachers will also differ. Everyone interprets the fundamentals of WC )or any martial art) differently. It's like the testimonies of witnesses to a crime or an accidents who see and interpret what they saw and give a slightly (sometime greatly) different account.
Unless I am mistaken, why is there no grappling in Wing Chun? Thx! When I do the WC punch, I snap down with the fist so the first two knuckles strike.
Very well done.
At 7:38, I started questioning how the different lineages do their impact conditioning. Coming from the William Cheung lineage, I was trained to use the bottom three from the start, with the top two incorporated in punches later on. At least at my school, though I cannot speak for others, we don't hurt our hands when we punch people, nor are our knuckles "weak", though they do start out that way. The reason for this is that we do our basic punch training on wallbags filled with sand, mung beans, or powdered concrete, as well as heavy bags filled with similar contents. We also put a rather heavy emphasis on knuckle pushups, iron palm, iron shin, etc. to make sure our weapons are well conditioned. Is this sort of training not focused heavily on in other lineages?
Be like a tree, rooted, sprouting forth. Be like water, calm, before the storm.
I love Wing Chun and push hands exercise but it seems in combat this binding of arms doesn’t happen. Punches come in combos and making contact is dangerous as opposed to footwork that creates angles. Any thoughts on this? Am I missing something?
Been a long time for me. But I practiced a combo of both those styles in the form. My Sifu Dave Mancini learned from Art Rose and then from his Sifu Kenny Chung in San Francisco Chinatown (1st Gen). Very high up on the Yip Man lineage.
What I noticed first was the difference in structure. You were more relaxed and flowing the guy in red seemed more rigid and powerful. Gracefulness versus powerful.
It's fascinating how the first form I've learnt seems to have been a blend of the two. I also don't think my Sifu has ever mentioned a lineage.
Can you do a breakdown of the principle and purpose of each movement in all the forms
Excellent video. One of the things I like least about the online wing chun community is the amount of dogmatic "my way is the only correct way" thinking. It's really great to see different wing chun styles not only being compared side by side, but being open minded and respectful of the differences in technique, form sequence, and theory.
Oh shoot! That's my boy Kev! Cool man. 💯✅
Trained in Wing Chun a lifetime ago in the mid 1980s in the Netherlands under a sifu named Roger Chan who had learned in Hong Kong until long days at school and work made regularly scheduled classes impossible and went the muscle gym route. Always appreciated WC but was never able to find a studio near where I lived. Wing chun us not as ubiquitous as say Shotokan. Never forgot it though. The style was definitely more Kevin. I remember that Roger had a picture of Yip Man on the wall of the gym room and i seem to remember him mentioning his son.
Hey Kevin I love your material. WC practitioner you brought on has very good core integration, especially in the low back and lower abdomen. It may currently be better than yours. If so, find out what he did to train that. His force generation looks really well grounded. It reminds me of Southern Mantis.
I started practicing yip man lineage and I notice when the guy on the left tapped into his state. Sometime it take me a few movements to reach my state or mind body connection.
I'm not a Chinese practitioner however.... I'm mostly do Korean and Japanese and little bjj.... I really like this particular video... I don't comment very much.... Both of you gentlemen have very good form.... I am a 5 th dan of just 1 of quite a few different martial arts ive done in my lifetime. Soooo all im trying to say is, i appreciate your dedication. Ous!
Jason, I enjoy your videos, but I do have a note for you on this one. With great respect for Francis Fong, I still must say that when you two did the first part of the second form, the biggest advantage your guest had came from him switching side stances by spinning on his heels, where you tended to spin on the balls of your feet, nearly your toes. As an experienced Wing Chun practitioner myself, I highly recommend that you review this practice.
Love this.
14:17 Nice and sly move: Approaching the bench, pretending to read the memorial plaque, and filching something from the backpack. 😁
It is good to see proper Wing Chun done. Many 'fighters' say they are Wing Chun and they are not even close.
Superb !!!
Love your content. My Wing Chun is from Ip Chun lineage.
Thank you!
More crane in Nate's, more snake in Kevin's.
Quality content
Thank for the class every you are super greate
Interesting I think the step that you were talking about is called the crescent step in karate
Amazing video that ended too soon. I noticed during Chum Kiu that Nate Sifu shifted on his heels and Kevin Sifu shifted on the balls of his feet, and was really hoping they'd elaborate in-depth on that.