Is Training to Failure Worse for Gains? | Educational Video | Biolayne
2024 ж. 18 Мам.
73 812 Рет қаралды
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So nice to see a study done on people other than noob lifters, elderly, or sick people.
I might have skipped this one - if not for your comment.
Totally agree I'm 59 and we can adapt any exercise to suit great comment
Only a noob would believe this study has significance. It literally breaks laws of physiology.
Which law?@@user-em2nz8bp9g
Yes. People rule! The sick, beginning lifters and esp these damn elderly, not even people
Powerful: "If you have never trained to failure, you will probably end sets 5 reps from where they are"
Maybe in compounds but stuff like leg extensions , curls, triceps etc is easy to train to failure.
I’ve found that statement to be accurate. I thought I was pushing hard then some dick lifted next to me and I had to put out. I was surprised how much I left behind. I also found adding 1 set and bringing it to failure was good for me as far as gains.
yeah learning this when I first started doing sets to actual, honest to god failure was humbling but very illuminating
This.
@@jammRJ you’d be surprised how many people still don’t go to failure even on those lifts. Workout out with different people and when they “think” they are done, go ahead and motivate them to do more….youll be very surprised how many more reps you can get someone to push out!
I do the bloho method. 2 reps then sleep and play warcraft the rest of the day. It’s given me the lunch lady body of my dreams.
Has it already turned you into a hardcore black ops CIA opperative?
the guy is almost in his 50s, right now has done a nice recomp and is strong and knowleadgeable about lifting. I guess he said weird stuff in the past, but I guess you are not better than that by trolling ten years after.
That dude crawled into his cubby hole and hasn't made much noise. Why the need to keep bringing him up? Does online bullying of a mentally ill guy who is already defeated and humbled, minding his own business, make you feel good about yourself? You're even lower than him at this point.
@@williamblake5289 what are you yapping about bloho is a terrible person with a terrible physique terrible strength all while using gear btw, there is no defending the dude it's like jumping in front of a warzone as a human shield
I think the big takeaway here is that if you’re aiming for maximal muscle growth, you need to be CLOSE to failure. You don’t need to go all out every single set, however your sets should be challenging enough for your body to adapt.
Exactly. Literally time & time again it just comes down to progressive overload. Increase in reps, or load progressively so that fatigue accumulation is managed, the body has time to adapt in order to perform better by next session.
But if you go all out on every set, do you need progressive overload?
@@grog3514 you absolutely need to progressively overload over time to continue growing. I'd argue going all out in every set, on every exercise, all the time will actually hinder your progress since it'll practically fry out your CNS from excessive & chronic fatigue accumulation. Progressive overload is just that, "progressive", meaning it's small increments over time which helps manage CNS fatigue far more efficiently
@@SamC_182 does that mean increasing weight every set or each workout? When you deload, does that mean you don't go to failure and just do an easy workout?
@@grog3514 small, weekly progressions. Week 1 do 2x15 reps at 100 lbs. Next week do 105 for a 2x15 as an example. You can also progressive overload with reps and sets. Week 1 do 2x10-15 @100 lbs. Once you hit the top rep range, then go up in weight a little. A deload is usually done every 4-9ish weeks to allow your body to recover from the prior training block. There are many ways to deload from not going to the gym at all, to cutting volume or lowering weight. It’s basically an active recovery week which will allow you to come back stronger and push harder next block.
Lifting for 17 years and in the first half of my lifting I always trained to failure. The second half of my lifting years I decided to cut the reps short, what I experienced was my strength increased and I was able to recover from my workouts better when I went 2-3 reps close to failure. I also noticed I wasn't as fatigued or felt burned out the day after lifting. I'm thinking the central nervous system is able to recover better when you don't constantly push your workouts to failure. Just a couple reps shy of failure made such an impact in my training, that I was finally able to break that plateau.
How many sets per muscle group were you doing towards second half of your lifting years?
Pretty similar story here. Training to failure does seem like doing extra work for no benefit. I would argue it's one of the most common newbie mistakes(speaking from experience unfortunately).
I've been lifting for 40 years and made some of the best progress of my life after a long layoff by doing one set per muscle group every day, to or beyond failure (full body every day, no rest days).
You said you werw able to recover better... well then what that really means is that you did not rest long enough between workouts period!
@@JerryCorreia76 Same amount. One thing I changed was how many rest days I have, when I was a newbie making beginner gains I was lifting 7 days a week for 2 hours a day. I definitley didn't allow myself suffecient recovery aka overtraining.
what this study showed the most is that proper research design is possible (checking all the boxes and addressing potential issues). Hopefully this encourages many more studies around body building/nutrition that could be trusted without constant lingering doubts
Bring Zac on for a long unedited conversation, please.
that would be sick
Great idea
Second that , do it Layne
Thanks for doing a video on this study. After watching, I see why you are so excited about this study. This is some GREAT information.
I alwayd did compound lifts with 1-2 RIR and isolation exercises to failure. Compound lfits are more fatiguing and form is more likely to breakdown when training to failure while isolation exercises usually done later in the session, arent as fatiguing and isnt dangerous to fail on them. This always made the most sense to me.
Great point! Training to failure on barbell squats is very different from tricep pushdown.
The thing about training to failure is it’s foolproof. Out of 100 guys maybe 5-10 know how to get close and benefit from that trade off and the rest are the ones you see looking the same after years.
Excellent practical info! Thank you!🏋️
What a beautifully executed study. Thanks for sharing.
Now almost every two weeks we get a new 'study' that contradicts the one before, which it seld is contradicted within another two weeks. How great!
That is awesome study! Thanks for that. Really important stuff
I've changed drastically at different stages throughout my gym life. At 58, I now consider failure at the point I break form. Yes it's technically 3,4 RIR, but better than an optimal exercise would be a good plan with consistency.
Great study, great explanation of it's content. Thanks coach
Well designed study. Wish there were more like this involving experienced lifters and competitors.
Really interesting. Thanks Layne.
great vid! like always moderation is key...there are soooo many factors here...consistency over time is everything!!
What you said towards the end about if you never go to failure you don't know what it feels like is key. I see SO much people who feel like they're "Training close to failure" but the rep literally never even slows down. I think many people think "training to failure" means going until you think you can't do more which A) isn't 'failure cause you still completed the rep and B) you can probably do way more than you think. What a great study though!
Another advantage of applying your recommendation of taking the last set to failure is that it gives you a real world example of where "actual" failure is for you in this movement at this point in time. Without that you are simply going off your feelings. And in my 45 years of experience coaching beginners to high level athletes, humans are not very good at gauging intense and difficult things with their perceived emotions. And even for those that can, taking the last set to failure simply takes away any guess work so... Good advice mate.
such a great study design
For someone who does not understand research design.
Appreciate the upfront statement regarding your coach conducting the study. You might be biased about the study but you're upfront about it and that is better for all of us listening to you 🌟
Great study design that demonstrates intuitive results. Although it may be better for muscle growth (based on meta analysis and other study designs) training to failure may not be optimal (based on decreased volume from neuromuscular stress). I think we’re doing a great job approaching this answer scientifically and I really like the recommendation of optional last set failure training in case there may be unnoticed benefit from failure training. IMO this is best of both worlds. When something is backed by science and just makes plain sense it’s hard to refute
I love that you commented on it being tested on men and women, but also as you said, most importantly they were comparing the difference between left/right leg 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 Great indicator of how studies should be carried out!
Great study
Brilliant. "If you're going to train to failure, save it for your last set." And compile that with the fact that you get the same level of gains from training every set to failure vs. 1-2 RIR, you can see what the absolute best method might be.
Actually you get a tiny bit more gains by going to failure, but we probably can all agree that the prolongued exhaustion and frying of the CNS isnt worth the gains that are literally almost equal to 1-2 RIR.
Good info!
Great video, thanks.
Thanks again
I always train to failure best way I can keep track of my lifts makes it super simple and gives me a target to beat next time
Full body? Push pull leg or upper low? How many sets and excercises per body part a week
@@freestyleliving4145 im kinda doing a test i only do 1 day every 7 days and its an entire upper body i traind 2 to 3 sets to failure all depending on how good my 1st and 2nd set is and if its worth a 3rd set i smash one out i dont train legs yet as i was in an accident and broke them so they are kinda messed up i just do 1 day on some basic moves on my legs basically squats and carv raises but mainly body weight with a little extra my legs really are not any good btw im currently sore for 5-6 days after my session and i do go as hard as physically possible on my curls i set the bar so i can rack it and once i fail i rack it small squat to lift the bar unrack and do another extended eccentric i used to train full body 3 times per week 3 years ago and i never got far but in the 2 months i have doing this new test ive had my partner saying how my boobs have grown etc and now my large shirts are tight round the bicep rather than tight round the belly the way im looking at it is anything is better than nothing and this is proving to be better than what i have done in the passed btw if you love the gym and like going 5x per week this will probably be no good for you for me after the effort i put in a need a week off before i go back as i feel like i have abused myself so much i would not be able to get in the gym any sooner anyway
The point about losing reps going to failure is critical in my opinion. Many people don’t understand that when you take every set to failure you will lose reps at some point. If you don’t, you aren’t going to failure. Plus, there is a significant amount of CNS systemic fatigue going to failure too often. While I believe that going to failure is okay once in a while, especially depending on the exercise, leaving 1-2 RIR produces excellent gains - allows for more training - less overall fatigue and is much easier to track progress.
Doing sets of 5 where 10 is failure, I'd still lose reps after a few sets - I'd probably fail to get 5 on the fourth set with two minute rests. I'd say for most exercises I'd need about twenty minutes for full recovery after a set of 10 to failure. With 2 RIR it might be ten minutes. With 5 of 10 it might be five minutes. I think people who can recover quickly after failure are slow-twitch dominant and/or don't have a nervous system that really lets them go to failure.
BullShiiat... you simply need to insert more rest days.
In my opinion, only few people know what a true failure is. They think they have reached failure but still has some gas left in the tank.
Ive always said why would I train to failure?? I train for success...its so simple
Totally agree with your take on RCTs vs Meta-analyses. Sometimes one RCT really is better because a Meta-analysis might just be compiling evidence from a lot of poor quality studies.
Failure...my wheelhouse
A good rule of thumb is go to failure for isolation exercises safely. Leave a few reps for compounds that have a risk of killing you. Going to failure on isolations is a good thing imo since it always teaches you what true effort feels like.
thank you
Thank you
One nitpick about your commentary on the study design: it is not the within-subjects design that accounts for potential sex differences in training response, the within design mostly serves to reduce the model residuals, it is the type of hierarchical analysis that they used which allows for random effects terms to be utilized for both individual intercepts and slopes, handling the inherently nested data structure they would have had. In fact, very good stats approach, should have reported WAMBS QC process results, but very solid. Light years beyond what I typically see in our field.
Good video! Personally I have always known these results. Simply due to volume mattering the most. If one does the first set already to failure, too much is taken away from the 2nd and 3rd (sometimes even 4th) set. Only the last set, if even that, should be done to failure (even that is away from the next set/movement).
I ramp up to failure with the same rep range till I get like an RPE of 9 on the last set. Has worked wonders for me.
without seeing the subjects it's difficult to see how the training was conducted. Real failure is like someone like Doug McGuff executing a set. If you train like that, it's just one set that's all that's necessary. I've been training for over 30yrs and it wasn't until i cut my volume even more and hiked up my intensity that i was able to put on 1 more pound of muscle over the course of 3yrs. Given i've already reached my genetic potential. Measured hydrostatically.
"leave two in the tank" for reps is a good rule of thumb I learned from the mind pump guys.
Another obvious thing about reducing the risk of injury, especially if you train alone and like to go to failure, is to get the safeties in a power rack and in the machines you might use in the right place.
Training to muscular failure harder than last time! 💪😳
I take the best of both worlds and train as a failure
Relative failure is not the same as mechanical failure
Nice one
Hopefully more studies will be done like this, so we can eventually have enough material for a meta-analysis. 😎
FOOORREEE……..the algorithm
Wow, this is exactly what I do. If I'm doing three sets, I'll leave 2-3 RIR on the first set, 1-2 RIR on the second set, and then to failure on the third set. It just seems like common sense. Depending on the exercise - e.g. incline dumbbell press - I might try a drop set after the third. Leave NOTHING on the table!
Question for this community: One thing that Dr. Norton said at the end is we should try to train to failure to see what it feels like, so we know what it feels like. Is there a safe way of doing this if we typically do not train with a gyn partner?
Going at or beyond expected failure on a a 5rep set is pretty straight forward: if you struggle on 4 or 5, you might get 1 more maybe, but unlikely get 2. On the other hand if you embarque on a set of expected 10, 12 or 15, you can most likely do a few more reps when pushed hard be a friend or coach, even more so on a 20r set. The more you lean towards endurance, the more you can keep pushing beyond.
I’d be interested to see if they gave them more rest between sets of failure if that’d make a difference to increase volume load.
Pavel Tsatsouline says not to train to failure.
Has regularly been ahead of the coaching pack
Pavel also said not to play leapfrog with a unicorn 🦄- which is also great advice 👍
Speaking for myself only, if/when I train to failure I don't progress as well due to preexisting injuries (some of which are overuse related) getting in the way of consistency. When I reduce the weight and stop a few reps shy of failure I'm able to lift more consistently and with less overall pain. My injuries and age related recovery decline are part of this equation of course. Looking back on my exercise history I would have likely been better served by more intelligent program design and less intensity and volume overall.
Pull-ups, I think, are the best way to figure out what training to failure feels like. It’s blatantly obvious when you hit it. Obviously, plenty of other exercises, but I always think about “training to failure” when hitting my last ego-diminishing pull-up. Check- got it. 😂
Yeah I'd say pull ups decline in reps the most, full stretch at the bottom though, not partials lol
listen too your body period.
Very interesting
What are your thoughts on going beyond failure? E.g., forced reps, partials, dop sets, etc.
Depends on what you're trying to achieve. I think training to failure is more for mental gains than physical ones.
I’m 64 and have trained for 45 years. I’ll take the last set of an exercise to total failure. This will be a drop set or 3 sec pause and hit the set to finish. Seems to work well even at my age.
Like most weight lifter, I use Progressive Overload. Generally, I try to keep adding another rep until I can get to 3 sets of 10 with maybe one is reserve. When I get to this point then I add more weight and now I drop back down to around 3 sets of 7 or so and need to start adding reps again. Working out like this, I'm routinely working out to failure. It's hard for me to imagine doing something similar but leaving 2 or 3 in reserve each time I workout.
Training to failure is flirting with injuries. I'm 45, it ain't for me anymore. I can't have injury time anymore.
Good video and sounds like overall a good study. I have to wonder though if the side trained to failure should have had a further reduction in volume? One of the arguments of training to failure is that you've produced enough of a stimulus in a reduced number of sets to warrant less frequency and volume. I personally train two sets to complete failure on my exercises and have been noticing great growth and strength increases. Anecdotal, I know. But my training frequency and volume is quite a bit less than when I trained multiple sets a few reps shy of failure, and I feel like I've notice greater growth with less time in the gym but hard training sessions.
Exactly what I was thinking. Most HIT advocates don't hit a muscle more than 10 sets a week. Most rir guys train up to 20 sets per muscle/week. I'd like to see a study with that real world comparison and see if there is a difference in muscle gains. Even more interesting would be for the test subjects to have only ever trained in one of those ways and to switch for the study to the other style. If they lose, gain, or maintain muscle after a few months, it would really help give us more insight.
Finally, someone with sense!
Btw 1-2 sets per failure, not ten; that would by physiological suicide.
Idk if you read comments but i need to ask this. For strength training (not powerlifting) is it smarter to do bench (for example) with no eccentric control (so you don't get any unnecessary fatigue, and therefore myb get 1 more rep) and to FULLY pause at the bottom so you are not riding the momentum, and then just focusing on concentric (your weakest part, which determents how strong you actually are)? The other option would be to bounce at the bottom so you get to "lift" (move) more weight which is good for strength development (heavy weight would develop strength faster than light weight right?) all this would be in smth like 2-4rep range @RPE8
Really interesting study. I would imagine the big difference in leaving RIR comes in people who are pushing the bleeding edge in terms of recovery. People who are working out three times a week, it probably doesn’t matter. Five or six times a week, leaving RIR matters a lot. And seven days a week, you are doing it wrong.
What has been working for me is, Start the meso with 2 working sets, those have to be taken to failure, it is easy mentally as you get the "I have only 2 chances to make my time worth it" With that you wont go easy on loads nor reps. So I get a good measure of what I am capable of, then after some sessions I recover easily and add a set here and there, so volume is increasing, reps are increasing, and sometimes I can add weight. After the meso ends, I go back to 2 reps but more likely with added load and start from there.
Every session I try to add a rep on each set or at least on the last set. I work with rep ranges not set number of sets. Add sets when you recover fast. Add weight if you cant add reps on 2 consecutive sessions and your reps are healthy within the rep range. Be mindfull about recovery/deload weeks.
I wonder about overtraining though. I follow and do One set to failure following Jay Vincent on KZhead. Doing multiple sets to failure per muscle group seems excessive for systemic fatigue
@biolayne1 What were the rest period between sets in the study? I see that they used 2 minutes and 5 minutes rests in the "Pre - testing" to establish starting weights.
All I know is that my drug of choice is the way I feel when I'm fighting for that last rep and doing that eccentric as slow as is physically possible into the deep stretch. Thank you Dr. Layne Norton. I'd love to see you and Dr. Mike Israetel talk.
May also differ between muscles or exercises, eg, for me pull ups goes down in reps for each set more than pressing
I always train to failure bc most people myself included when you think you're at failure you're generally close but not, So in theory I'm 1 or 2 short.. I'm still improving and I'm 60yr and compete in amateur body building..
Where do I sign up to participate in such well-designed studies?
Never done it still in good shape at 62 learn your muscles groups fuel select safe excercises to target body part try different techniques select the ones that you get results with do cardio , stretches rest stick to this . Forget all the talking get into doing and finding the correct formula for yourself and be persistent in being consistant.😊
Is there any chance that these training protocols could have different effect on psychology? I've read there could be a benefit to training on the resilience to stress, like bereavement and so on, I'd be interested to know how these could possibly even be quantified
Going to failure also means you have to recover from this intensity , there is no way someone can train the next day after performing a true failure program ! It may take 2 to three days ! But this is the misconception or not understanding how the body heals, there is a lot to learn about when you train to failure that is growing larger muscles...
For the algorithm.....
Yeah i think I'll just keep carrying on training every set to failure thanks, apart from the warm up set...Like I've been doing for 25 years of weight training.. Thanks 😊
Its great for gains. You get to work out harder and rest longer. I work out two times a week. Failure or one rep left in the tank is fine.
A lot of decontextualised research terminology, but how does that directly and specifically relate to the dynamics of measuring physiological responses?
Would the mind/muscle connection be a variable? My right leg trains a lot better than my left leg because of that connection
Do we know if less to-failure reps (eg27) are more productive than more not-to-fail reps(32)? Is it purely down to volume? Would less reps and more sets to increase volume be even better?
I want to mention something that might be worth keeping in mind. while comparing left to right is its own control group, people have different dexterity, neural drive, asymmetries, injuries, etc. I know this can hardly be avoided, but I think its an honorable mention. maybe in the future all athletes could be double checked by physicians/ chiropractors etc before each session to address even this kind of variables? just my thoughts here...
Which is why the legs were randomized
6:08 he finally gets to the point
Maybe I'm wrong but isn't the amount of sets exactly the thing you would be able to do more of when not going to failure? If you keep these equal you are missing out on a specific benefit. I myself tend to not be able to do that many sets when I train intensely and additionally the muscle soreness often stops me from re-training that same body part for a few days, something you would have less of with not training to failure. Curious how other people experience this.
Would something like the overall training effect impact results? What I gather from this is one leg is trained with a greater intensity 0 RIR and less volume since subsequent reps declined and the other a “lesser” intensity 1-2 RIR and more volume. Would the 0 RIR stimulus impact the overall training effect? It’s like training only one leg while the other heals from injury kind of thing where the non trained leg keeps some size. I wonder what the results would have been if the failure group did like 50% of their typical training volume. The argument I think for the failure people is you would need only one maybe two sets.
That method does confound (mask) any potential neurohormonal benefit of one protocol over the other however.
Training to failure is not the only way to get gains. Old school bodybuilders didn't train to failure. Yet were massive. Look at Bill Pearl he was massive and has gone on record many times saying don't train to failure. Vince Gironda another famous trainer of bodybuilders and celebrities NEVER trained to failure. He trained Carl Weathers for the Rocky movies.
Exactly. Going to failure is actually harder on the cns than the muscles which means you're actually undertraining. The hit cult are guilty of this fact. It's why they look pathetic.
I wonder about systemic carryover effects between the limbs evening out the differences in training protocols. Does training to failure trigger systemic signaling in the entire body that might influence the non failure limb? I think a twin study might be better.
So even for isolation exercises 1-2 shy of failure is still as good as to failure. Not just compound exercises. Side note: would it matter if it's free weight vs machine?
Three sets of each exercise with only the final one to absolute failure is precisely how Dorian Yates trained in Blood and Guts. I've been following this protocol for the last year and have made the fastest gains in my life. The caveat is that you have to gauge your body's recovery ability accurately. This type of training demands full recovery before being repeated or gains will stop. I'm on a five way split and accomplish this split over ten days which means I lift every other day. I follow the vertical diet including a minimum of 2 grams per kg of protein. Everyone's recovery ability is different but it's better to err on the side of caution for full recovery. I'm 5'11" tall and now weigh a lean 245.
What about 2-3 shy? And 3-4? How much difference, if any, vs 1-2?
I think in calisthenics, rir 0 is pretty effective. Barbell.. rir 8 is fine.
For the algorithm!
Since when do you train 10:31 to failure on the Squat ? Looking for a serious injury.
I've always only went to failure on last sets. Wierd that people do failure sets prior or never do them
(People tend to quit, even tho they had 5 more) I’ve always said, the mind tends to quit before the body. That’s why I like the Tom Platz approach of *try to get 5 more*. That’s how you’ll know if you went to failure.
This is amazing stuff even though they did one leg then the other leg shy of failure could one leg or side not be generally weeker than the other? I know my left is weeker, mind you I am 59 😅