7mm Showdown | Part 2 | Why Bullet Construction Matters | Terminal Performance & Hit Probability
2024 ж. 4 Сәу.
8 255 Рет қаралды
In this video we talk about bullet construction, how that relates to it's effect on tissue and bone. As well as why that is relevant and how hit probability is related.
We also talk a little bit about why we set the distance limit we set and show with simulations how things can fall apart at longer ranges.
www.littlecrowgunworks.com/st...
Great point about the sd. I find it funny when the likes of berger and Hornady on their eldx brag about high sd when their bullets completely blow to pieces on impact . I guide in northern bc and we don’t allow target bullets to be used on big game . Just because it says “ hunting “ on the box doesn’t make it so . Mono metal or bonded should be the only bullets used on big game . And don’t get me started on “ energy dump “. I’d rather have an accubond ext travel all the way through vitals and hang up on hide on the other side rather than a Berger “dumping energy “ apparently killing it with pure energy lmao . Great way to sell their target bullets as hunting bullets but it’s horrible watching injured animals get away only to die a miserable death later. The only bullets I get a complete pass through on mature bull elk and moose is the barns bullets , especially the older ttsx . I’ve had pass throughs with acubonds but at ranges inside of 100 yards and non quartering broadside shots .
Oh boy... you're really kicking the hornets nest now... All the rage is using match bullets for hunting lol. I agree with you on bullet choice. My preferred hunting bullet is the Accubond and the Barnes LRX. I haven't done load development for the CX.
I haven't found a nest I won't kick yet! I think the match bullet crowd was sucked in by the performance numbers and talked themselves into liking the fact that the bullets explode. But as I showed in Part 1, all that BC doesn't help as much as they think it does. If you look at drop and drift charts, you would say otherwise. But Drop and drift charts are useless for anything but selling ammo.
@@LittleCrowGunworks While pulling in #10 electrical copper wire in to pvc conduit, the full spool slipped and rolled down the hill. It hit a hornets nest square on that was in the brush. I got hit several times getting that wire back. Not fun😢😢😢 😅😅😅😅
Thank you for all the work and information. After 20 years of shooting long range reality set in last year after trying this for 3 months every weekend cold bore one shot kill at 1000 was about 30%. It made me really pull my range back and what shooting positions dictated my effective range.
All of this nonsense of shooting 1000 yards and then when I bought the first range finder then used it on the North Oregon with massive canyons that often are miles deep when I started checking ranges, I knew on the spot how liars are using range to bull shit people. I set up a 5'x5' target at what the range fined showed 1000 yards then went back across the canyon to look and what did I see what a 5'x5' target was almost a spot that was barely visible, and I had to turn the Leupold 6.5x20 to 20 power to get a good look at that target. So, stop with the bull shitting the ignorant viewers of these comments that 1000 yard is really nothing to sneeze over. I did try to shoot that target at 1000 yards with a 300 Weatherby mag in a Mark 5 and with the custom Brevex Mauser in 8mmx378 Weatherby magnum both rifles I hit the target but only after using allot of ammo and many trips around the canyon to check where the bullets are going. The few bullets that did hit the target had been scattered all over it. By no means at all is it easy to hit targets at that range when wind or just breeze can change the flight of bullets and time in the air as the world turns make a difference in bullet flight to the target. These comments sections at just filled with liars making up crap or also making up crap that is just impossible to do! I don't have any interest to be a bull shitter to get people's attention using lies, what I write is actual things I have done and if something I've done failed well maybe someone reads it then know not to do what I did. For all who write silly nonsense about shooting long range go buy a ranger finder them start checking how far things are.
Dale, shooting 1,000 yards is not uncommon anymore. I do it every time I go out to the farm for testing. It's not difficult when your knowledge and equipment are up to the task. Watch my 22 Nosler videos. I shoot that little 22 caliber at 1,030 yards ON VIDEO all the time. It's not hard if you have things figured out. Does that mean I think it should be done on a game animal? No. But the days of 1,000 yards being some impossible distance to hit targets at are LONG gone. I do it multiple days per month. Often on the first shot, at a 16 inch square. Not some big 5ft plate. As I mentioned in the first video, last summer my buddy and I went 4 for 5 at 2073 yards on a 22 inch by 30 inch rectangle. These distances aren't impossible anymore.
This series is going to make Hornady up there game. Which, here lately, I believe they are; where they said, at the end of a video, you don’t have 1/2 moa gun you think you have and should stop taking 700 yard shots! I appreciated that….
Absolutely.
I am now 64 years old then in 1978 I started my fishing & hunting guided services doing Black tail deer & Roosevelt Elk hunts in the Pacific NW and in 1989 to fall of 2019 I was doing Yukon Moose and Brown bear hunts in many locations of Alaska. Over time of see many kinds of bullets recovered from large animals or deer where lead core bullets desegrated so for myself own hunting and then requiring my clients to only bring Barns X to Barns TSX - TTSX - LRX bullets insuring a fast dead animal I won't have to go looking for. All of these lead core bullets turn to lead bombs and blow-up meat and cause more often a wounded animal that needed to look for and found far from were shot or never found. I don't care at all about match target shooting this or that I need a bullet like the Barns TSX to kill fast and travel at any angle through the animal and preferable exiting the animal with excessive power that a lead core bullet can't do because it has either blow up into fragments or sheds the lead core and stops in the animal. I don't give a rip what you use, or you been brainwashed into the BS Marketing of Hornaday & Burger bullets selling paper target bullets as a hunting bullet. My own time of hunting deer - coastal Elk - Yukon Moose - Brown bears - Dall sheep - Mountain goats has shown me what bullets make sure kills and what bullets turn into lead bombs blowing up the animal wasting up to 3/4 of the meat must be left to the scavengers. I don't have anything against the other brands of copper expanding bullets I just haven't used them. I own some Hornaday GMX 30 cal bullets but never shot any animals with them, they do shoot great from my 300 Weatherby.
Great stuff Dale. Couldn't agree more.
Here we go! Thanks for the breakdown. I nerd out on this stuff, and I use it. Can't ever learn enough. Appreciate you taking the time to go through it.
Thanks for showing up, ready to learn. That's all I can ask for.
This is solid gold!! Excellent observations and succinct answers to real world hunting requirements.
Thanks Andrew! We're trying to set a new standard for how these subjects are analyzed. Not just a 5 minute video on drop charts and marketing materials.
Thank you! Again the video did not seem anywhere near an hour. I “was” in the dump all the energy in the animal group. Not anymore. What you said made sense. I am curious why tue CX over the Barnes TTSX. again great video can’t wait for the rest of the series. With that said and not knowing what is coming I am making the prediction the 7mm Rem Mag is going to reign supreme.
This is no doubt, as well explained as i have ever heard. Totally agree. Ive been trying to explain this for years but couldnt put it words this way. Love your shows.
Glad I could help. Tell your friends, ha!
Thank you!... Dedication to perfection, take you to the ol common sense. It is a new level. But, you find the way to incorporate, tech, statistics, dedication, ol'etics, to the game. A game that differs from a play... Bravo.
Wow! What a compliment. Thank you for that. I'm trying to paint a masterpiece and I feel like it's being appreciated so far.
Thanks for all the great information . Loving the long length as I'm listening at work. Thanks for the numbers on probability and charts to inform the neophytes. Can't wait on the next episode!
My pleasure Chuck! Thanks for the support. They don't know what they don't know.
@LittleCrowGunworks I don't know what I don't know, but I'm trying to learn. I've got a story about elk and energy. I shot a 2.5 yr old cow with a 358 Norma, 250 partition , 2800 fps muzzle at 70 yrs center punched the heart. Other than the 15 yrd mad dash no reaction!! Tough critters but I had 2 holes, big spray of blood in the snow. Thanks for your reply!!
Anytime Chuck. Yeah, a 358 and a 250gr Partition... that's going right on through! As you go up in diameter like that, the need for a monolithic bullet goes WAY down.
Thanks for the reply. When I was referring to my 358 shot elk, I was talking about hitting an elk with 4000+ ft lbs of energy and its lack of a reaction. I love monoliths, all I use in my 06. Keep up the good content.
I'm medically trained and your account of an exit hole induced tension pneumothorax being more quickly lethal than soft point destruction of inflated lung tissue makes eye opening sense. Any ER/ED physicians out there. I have a sika (weigh 180lbs) stag roar hunt in 2 weeks time and the option of using 162eldx 2940 dps or 150 cx at 2985fps from my Rem mag. I'm tilting towards the cx.
The deer will never know!!
Thanks for another great installment. Cant wait for the series to continue so i can continue building my knowledge base
Thanks Steve! I'm gonna keep bringing it as long as it's appreciated. See ya on the next one.
Absolutely fantastic video!
Another great video, Tim!! Thanks for the honest, real world info.
Thanks Brian. I'm just trying to tell you what nobody else is.
Keep ‘em’ coming Tim! Great content. Can’t wait till the next one😎
Thank ya much, see ya on the next one!
Maybe it’s too basic to even mention or I missed your commenting on it, but the horizontal oval dispersion tells me wind reading/variability is more important than range finding. My guess is that before electronic range finders your oval would’ve been vertical, as well as significantly larger. Those little gadgets may have a lot to do with the long range shooting craze, both targets and hunting. Off topic - thank you for being so direct about your ability to whip out your can of troll-b-gone. I hadn’t heard another KZheadr acknowledge that level of control over the comments section. It says some interesting things about videos with really hostile and/or stupid commenters. The content creator either likes the controversy or just doesn’t care. What made me think about it was a news channel video where every comment echoed the opinions in the video. Now I know for certain that had I commented there, my opinions would’ve been disappeared by the channel (which has happened more than once).
Great observation. You are correct. Big picture, range is the most important. But rangefinders have almost solved that for us. Now, wind is the biggest issue. More important than 100yd group size, extreme spread, ballistic coefficient, etc. Inability to read wind can swallow up all of your hard earned precision at the reloading bench. Yes, it does say something about toxic comment sections and the channels they reside on, doesn't it? I expect some constructive criticism and push back. But if you're going to come on here and try to treat me like I don't know anything and you are the all wise gun wizard from your cozy point of anonymity, offering nothing but criticism on my FREE VIDEO, you can hit the bricks. We don't have time for that. Go start your own channel and educate us all. Oh wait, you won't do that because you're a lazy troll. I have a permanent solution for just such an occasion... IN TWO CLICKS OF THE MOUSE... TROLL-B-GONE!
Another quality video that resonates with me!! To simply level set on your experience and knowledge curve Tim - Please know I have 20 plus years hunting elk AZ. We hunt in a group and support each other with bow and muzzle loader and rifle. Translating to more experience than drawing a tag every 6 years. Some will say so what!! OK but to me your talk on anatomy compounded by hunting conditions is very relevant!! Add human adrenaline and conditioning at elevation and your shot probability stats get worse. Even with experienced dudes here. We were shooting 06s with the older Barnes 180s with your choice of the CX in mind. Metallurgy has improved and 3/4 rifles are a thing now. We all have tactical type scopes you can dial and I even use a kestrel integrated with LRF. 400 yards is a long way on a edgy bull tending cows.
Great stuff Steve. You have your head screwed on straight. These things are complicated. I know guys are looking at my numbers and thinking, well, that doesn't sound too bad!?! What these numbers DON'T include is you're out of breath, wet, cold, have buck fever, etc. Cliff Gray talks a lot about that. He said in real world hunting, his clients shot more like 3 to 4 MOA!!! Not 3/4 MOA. Yes, under real world conditions on a moving target, 400 is a poke.
Thanks for sharing. I'm enjoying the show.
Glad to hear it! Thanks for joining us!
I continue to be impressed with the info. Simple concepts but often overlooked. The 7PRC is getting beat up recently on social media and I am anxious to see how my 7RM fares in your series. I am getting a little more excited about my 6.5PRC factory velocities, they are actually pretty close to factory box w 147 Hornady vs some factory 150 7 Mag ammo
Thanks for the positive feedback. The 7 PRC is a fine cartridge. The factory ammo isn't doing it any favors though.
A long video is not a problem for me. I really appreciate your no bs approach and actual knowledge and research. Elk definitely reacts differently than a deer when hit and seem to be more predictable. Antelope also don't react the same as deer or elk for that matter. I also find little to disagree with and wouldn't have any confidence in an eldx on anything bigger than deer either. I have seen an elk drop on impact from velocity one time on a basic behind the shoulder lung shot, but only one time. I have a question that's sort of off topic, but I'd like to get your opinion. Here in Wyoming, you can get lots of Antelope tags, so I've shot a pile of them, and the bullets I've used always exit of course, but I've studied the blood loss quite a bit, and I've noticed they bleed a lot from the nose as well as the bullet holes. I'm curious if you've seen that happen with elk. I've been shooting between 7 to 10 big game animals a year, but I've never really studied the blood trails from elk, and the vast majority of the deer drop with the cartridge bullet combination I usually use. Except for when I use my sharps 45-70 or my 375H&H, of course. Anyway, I'm enjoying the free knowledge you're sharing because no matter how much I may think I know, I can definitely benefit from learning more, and I hope very little practice with doping and such for extended range with rifles other than my 45-70, which is completely different. Thanks again, and I'm happy to hear you'll be making them closer together. But, congrats on getting more distribution on your case trimmers. I may have to try them, but I didn't know about them when I got the snazzy trimmer I did get. I'm a big fan of cartridge specific reloading tools because of the option of setting it and being done with the messing around.
Excellent video! Thanks for the information
Thanks for the support!
Great vid Tim, think I might have take a trip to your neck of the woods, we haven’t got elk here in Australia I and id love to bag one with the new rifle you make for me, seriously going to look into getting to the US of A in the very near future and coming home with a couple new little crow toys, cheers mate Yogi 🤙✌️
If you would like to try a hunt for Pacific NW Roosevelt Elk, I do these hunts and have done them since 1978.
@@dalebenson6859 thanks for the info mate, how do I get in touch with you bro and what’s the best time of year to chase those beasts, cheers Yogi 🤙✌️
Love the videos !! Great job , I used to use copper bullets(ttsx) alot after about 20 animals I have found they deflected quite a bit even on broadside shots so I switched to accubond and nosler partition, I was wondering if you experienced this and have you tried the hammer bullets !! Tks and can't wait for next videos
I believe you as much as I believe Joe Bidens wild story's like fighting Corn Pop! Since when did animals start wearing body armor to cause bullets to deflect ?
Very good video and points made. The discussion points regarding energy dump vs penetration were particularly good. The fact that penetration wins is IMO, best illustrated with bow hunting…penetration is paramount to deflate the balloon (lungs) and get a good blood trail. The argument about well constructed bullets monolithic and bonded vs cup and core are similar to the arguments around fixed blade and mechanical/expanding broad heads. The latter fly like field points but also fail to penetrate like a fixed blade. I will stick with my fixed blade broadheads and either bonded or monolithic bullets…which ever shoot better in my rifle.
Well said.
They may be an hour long, but that time goes by real fast!!!
I’ve always been a big TTSX and Accubond fan. I’ve used the Interlock with great success. I know you’re talktalking about Elk and I totally agree with you but I would like your opinion on something. On Deer (125-225) pounds how do you think the ELD-X will perform compared to a cup and core like the Interlock. I’m curious of your thoughts. Thank you
Great question. The Interlock and ELDX are designed very similar to each other internally. The Internal "Lock Ring" mid bullet is very similar between the two. But the ELDX is a G7 Standard based bullet, and the Interlock is a G1 Based Bullet. The Interlock will hold together better under all velocity bands. The ELDX will expand more violently at all velocity bands. I think if most of your shots are sub 250yds, you are better of with something other than an ELDX. Unless you are using a low velocity cartridge to begin with. If your shots are 250 to 600yds, I think the ELDX is just fine on Deer. Then the velocity will be low enough that the bullet will look like the center image on my slide and MAY exit. To be perfectly honest, I think heavy Bonded Bullets are OPTIMAL for deer. Expand quickly to nearly triple diameter, retain high weight and likely will exit. If you gave me cartridge and barrel length I could be more specific. Thanks for the question.
Enjoying the videos. Thanks. If your rifle did not shoot the CX bullets very well, what mono would be your second choice? Thanks
Thanks John, great question. We don't have ANYTHING against the other brands. The 160 CX just has the highest BC of all the 7mm Mono's. I would say, stay as heavy as your rifle twist and freebore allows. Basically you need an 8" twist or faster to shoot the heavy mono's.
I dont mind the longer videos when they contain relevant and we'll explained information, such as these. I understand the rationale of exiting the hide and the lungs collapsing, but if that is the case, wouldnt a FMJ be just as effective? It will penetrate and cause an exit hole, yet they are generally prohibited by law due to a lack of effective terminal performance? Not trying to argue, just me thinking through the process. You also mentioned Partitions not exiting. Did they effectively kill though, all be it without an exit? Or was the kill delayed in your observations. I have shot Accubonds a lot, and know that like Partitions, there is a possibility they might not exit, but they have always given very good tissue destruction along with being at least under the off side hide, if not exiting. I know that in those case we forego the exit hole, which is desirable, but seems the animal never goes far and dies quickly, which seems to be the job of a game bullet. I known you selected the CX for a reason, obviously, but what are your observations on terminal effectiveness of the Partition/Accubonds, when not exiting? Thanks for any experience you can share on this topic.
Hey John, great question. An FMJ doesn't expand, so there is minimal energy transfer or tissue destruction to the animal. A monolithic does expand AND in a controlled manner. The reason they are so effective at killing AND still exit is the amount of expansion and shape. Because of the monolithic material, they will not fail if they hit heavy bone. They also resemble a wadcutter when fully expanded, which is excellent at displacing material. But the key is the AMOUNT of expansion. They typically expand from 1.4 to 2.1 times the original bullet diameter. It is this "lack" of over-expansion that keeps the Terminal Sectional Density high enough for the now wadcutter shaped bullet, to reach the off side with enough force to blow out the hide. Typically a bonded or partition type (A-Frame, etc) bullet will reach the hide on the off side of an elk and "sometimes" exit but not usually. Because the expansion is more like 2.2 to 3 times original bullet diameter and it just has too much drag when passing through the body. So it usually gets stopped by the tough, stretchy hide. But they kill just fine. I would say slower on the average because the lungs collapse slower/less often if there is no exit.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Very good to know. Thank you for taking the time to respond and to help others like me learn more about our great sport.
Another amazing video. I especially like how detailed they are because when a debate comes up, I can just say, "Hold on, I'm going to send you a link that can explain this better than me." Also, since you talked about the 300RUM, would a Hornady 190gr CX or a Barnes 190gr LRX be better or the same, or would something else be better?
I appreciate that Derek! I think the CX and LRX are both great. The CX just has a little higher BC and therefore higher hit probability.
For elk I think the copper makes sense. As long as ya can keep the velocity up in magnum territory. For whitetail I like the nosler ballastic tips 165grain.
I See you've been brainwashed by the KZhead Groupies Parrot mouth taking nonsense that Barns bullets are just FMJs if not pushed to hyper velocity speeds. I load the Barns 165 grain 30 cal TSX into 7.62x39 to be fired from an AR 15 with 16-inch barrel and only 25 grains of powder. Every deer I have shot and then recovered these bullets the Barns TSX 165 grain is fully expanded and bet the bank on it the speeds at times fell below 1000 FPS. Barns to squash this lie that Barns bullet must be pushed to extreme speeds did a video proving it was false by shooting a 30 cal 180 grain Barns TSX bullet at 800 FPS into gel and that bullet fully expanded. But still people like you with very slim firearms experience let yourself believe all of the KZhead parrot mouth talkers' nonsense.
I understand your logic on choosing a monolithic bullet. The penetration causing the entrance and exit hole allow you to track the animal if needed. But that’s only one wound channel. What if it doesn’t hit a vital organ and the animal keeps going? I am playing devils advocate here because if you make the same type of shot with a cup and core bullet like an ELDX or Berger, you’re gonna have multiple wound channels and much better chance of killing that animal quicker than just one wound channel, yes or no? There seems to be a lot of people on the cup and core side as well as the monolithic side. Both for good reasons. Both can give real world examples of successes and failures. Good luck finding an answer to these questions. I will continue watching. I’m not convinced 100% either way to be honest. I do appreciate your efforts though.
I just wish there was one perfect bullet for all conditions and one perfect broadhead for all conditions. I carry both Sevr Mechanical Broadheads as well as fixed Muzzy Trocar broadheads in my quiver. The perfect bullet and perfect broadhead just doesn't seem to exist. I'm a reloader so, it's easier for me to reload for the animal. I prefer the ELD-X for deer, but might load a lesser grain monolithic CX bullet for elk. With that being said, I have killed a bull elk with an ELD-X bullet. Double lung with the lead core exiting, but the copper jacket found against the offside hide. It did the job. The point is, I'm not stuck on only one type of bullet or one type of broadhead. I'm flexible. No matter what you shoot though, a bad hit is a bad hit. I have seen better recovery though on marginal hit animals with expandable broadheads that didn't fully penetrate both sides as well as cup and core bullets that didn't fully penetrate at long range because they caused more damage. Granted blood trails might be less if you don't have 2 holes. A solid monolithic bullet at long range may only pencil through if a bad shot with little expansion and wound the animal with no recovery the same as a close 60 yard poor shot with a cup and core bullet exploding at high velocity, having poor penetration and wounding an animal with no recovery. Anyway, Just my observations from my 40 plus years of hunting.
Great comment. The other reason we like the CX over the ELDX is , the CX will pass through and function perfectly from the muzzle out to 2100 fps or so, no matter what it hits. Be smart and don't shoot an animal that will be below that 2100fps mark and the bullet will work famously. Where the ELDX really comes into it's own between 2700fps and maybe 1800fps. Well, what if you're pushing a 175 LEDX at 3500 fps like my 7-300 Norma Improved is able to. That animal has to be a long damn way away (880yds - half a mile) to GET DOWN TO 2700fps. Because those high velocity impacts can have wildly different results depending on what you hit inside the animal with an ELDX. I've hit animals at 3100fps with an ELDX. The bullets (multiple) completely exploded and only fragments exited... on a whitetail. Not so good. After that, I was done with ELDX.
@LittleCrowGunworks Yes I Concur 100%, with that kind of velocity you need a tough bullet. I would think many cup and core bullets might even start coming apart at that kind of velocity before they hit the target. That 7-300 Norma "Improved" has got to be one dam cool smoking fast cartridge for sure!
I would never trust a cup and core bullet in this cartridge. They aren't designed for this kind of abuse. Mono or nothing for this cartridge.
Great video. A lot of common sense that’s not all that common. With distance shooting, the wind is not your friend. Practice how you hunt. If the wind is blowing, don’t stay home. Embrace the challenge and practice your wind reading.
Thank you for the support. AMEN! The wind blows during hunting season. If it's windy, I want to practice. THAT is when you learn.
Tim, I’m coming up with .1197 for a terminal SD for the 160CX. That’s with a recovered weight of 152 grains (95% weight retention) and 1.5X the recovered diameter. (.426 squared).
Good Observation. I didn't want anyone to accuse me of playing favorites with the numbers. So I used 99% weight retention and 1.9X diameter. I high sided the retention but that is WAY less important than the diameter, because the diameter is squared. So I high sided the expansion as well. My number is a "closer range torture test" where the bullet is expanding to near it's maximum diameter. And with the 150CX at 2800fps, Gavin had 99.8% weight retention and 1.9X expansion. So that's what I used (I rounded down to 99%). Based on our slide, with a 7PRC, 2800fps would be the impact velocity at 225yds in our "Mountain Conditions". I personally think long range expansion will be close to that 1.6 number that you came up with. Thanks for pointing that out.
Accubond vs ttsx? I have a 7 rem mag I use 150 ttsx and a 300 wsm 200 grain accubonds. I think both are good bullets but do you a preference?
Both are great bullets. I think the TTSX would be more likely to exit of those 2 options.
What’s your ELK GUN? And what’s your thoughts on the 300 PRC w a 190 CX for elk?
7-300 Norma Improved with a 160gr CX @ 3540fps. Excellent choice.
Tim, have you done any performance with 8.6 blackout? If so, curious which brass and dies you're using. I like the trimmer with replaceable inserts for different calibers, although it would be nice if you could combine chamfering like the Giraud tri-way trimmers do (yes, I realize they do not have 8.6 blackout or 6.5 Grendel in tri-way). EDIT: as a follow-up question, would it be possible to create a chamfer tool that could chamfer inside/outside of case in one process?
I have not loaded for any Blackout cartridge. We are aware, that if we could make our trimmer into a tri-way, we could OWN the trimmer market. But the way we look at it is, if we can't make it perfect, we're not going to make it.
@@LittleCrowGunworks I agree, and do believe that is why Doug won't make them anymore, remember his don't have interchangeable inserts. Back to the chamfering, if you could make a similar tool that would just chamfer, not trim, would it be possible? I currently use Lyman manual chamfering and it takes a while, the outside is worse than the inside. I don't want you to think I'm ungrateful, I have the 8.6 blackout trimmer as well as 6.5 Grendel and 300 blackout inserts. I have a 300 blackout tri-way also...back to 8.6 blackout, I have seen shoulder issues with dies/reamers/chambers and that was why I was curious about the insert, as that is where the shoulder is handled. What dies did you use for the shoulder? I haven't used dykem on your insert with brass, but since it only trims length, it doesn't matter as long as it seats solid.
We cut our trimmer inserts with the same type of chamber reamer you would use to chamber a barrel.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Yes, what reamer do you use? The only choice right now is C.I.P. as far as I can tell. I see definite differences between gauges, dies, chambers, et al This is why I was curious which reamer you use. PTG claims SAAMI on their site, I don't believe it. Steinel says they use the PTG on their gauge, but Sheridan is a different shoulder, AFAICT.
We ONLY use PTG Reamers.
38:20 -No wonder I couldn’t hit that rock…….
Good info to know. But where’s the info on the 7mm debate as far as 7 rem mag 7 prc or 28 nosler
It's coming, this series is a marathon, not a sprint. Thanks for watching.
I don’t like the short barrels either!
But that leads me to find the thinnest barrel at 26 to 28 inches that can hold a min 3 shot group and then a five shot group. Or does that even matter with a cryo treated barrel? Or does cryo even work?
The jury is still out on cryo. Don't go lighter than bull sporter .700 muzzle and flute it to take weight off.
I may be on mount stupid, but wouldn’t having a good quality weather meter eliminate a lot of the weather variable in hit probability? I haven’t done a lot of long range shooting personally, but a lot of the variability in your hit probability has to do with weather conditions, so I feel a good weather meter would help tremendously. Again, I may be on mount stupid here, but it’s just a thought.
Great question. The weather meter will eliminate the Pressure & Temperature variation but most don't read humidity, so that's on you, but it's by far the least important variable. Weather Meters do read wind velocity at the shooter. But that's only useful in the plains. Because you are standing in, shooting through and shooting to where the prevailing wind is most dominant. In the mountains, it is COMPLETELY different. If you're on one side of a canyon, shooting to the other side; there will be at least 2 different wind currents, maybe 3 or 4. This is something I could do an entire video on. The short answer is, the wind where you are, is not what the wind is at the center of the canyon where the bullet is flying through, nor is it likely the same as where the animal is standing on the other side. So in an instance like that, a weather meter is borderline harmful, not helpful. Thanks for the question.
How many non long range hunters do analysis on their hit probability? Or do they hit 100% of the time?
The answer is: not enough. Based on how I'm blowing everyone's hair back, most folks are clueless on how these variables change their hit probability and how this stuff really works, what's important and what's not.
What do you think about a Berger w a high shoulder shot?
They're going to blow up because these are paper target bullets marketed as hunting bullets.
@@dalebenson6859 weird. Every Elk and deer my family has ever shot with a Berger on a high shoulder shot have dropped in their tracks. Funny thing, if you drop them in their tracks you don’t need an exit hole to track an animal.
@@bobmcmillen4502 Hay if you like shooting match grade paper target bullets at game and blowing up whole ribs and leaving for scavengers or you like you lie how great cheap lead core bullets have at it! I am no stupid lunatic fallowing bullets manufacture BS when since 1978 as an only income I am a professional Alaskan & Pacific NW hunting guide so BS me all you want but I am not having your telling lies. You also won't ever in your life killed or see killed the amount of game from Deer - Black bear - Brown bear - interior Grizzly's - Yukon Moose - Dall sheep - Mountain goats and Caribou - Roosevelt Elk I've shot or watched my clients shoot.
@@bobmcmillen4502 I agree 100% with you. I have seen the exact same thing with my ELDX bullets, which apparently are the devil in this series. I like the idea of multiple wound channels. As opposed to just one. I do understand his point about tracking them if needed though. You and I are both trolls as well. 🤣
@@edstettin6799 do you take high shoulder shots w the Eldx’s?
Done did.
Nosler Partition. I consistently kills and that’s the objective.
Hi, last week shot oryx with my 338 win mag using 270 grain eldx, close distance 80 yards, mv2550f/s. Hit the shoulder bone, animal drop down instantly, i thought nice. Only afterwards when skinning and gutting the animal we saw that bullet did not enter in the vitals. It basically exploded! Never again.again
Now you know. Fortunately you didn't lose the animal.
I hear CX bullets are finiky accuracy wise?
Hey Chris, I can't support that statement. I'm going to show you guys my method for load development in this series. In my experience, they didn't behave ANY different than a match bullet and are capable of shooting crazy small groups.
I was talking to a guy at the shop yesterday about the ELD-X bullet after watching your video. He showed me a photo of an elk he took last year. Wouldn't say where. He shot 3 times into that elk. Finally his buddy had to put it down. Right at about 360 yards he said using a 300 Win. All 3 of his shots hit the shoulder bone and disintegrated. Doing nothing but hobbling the animal and minor internal. His buddy was using a Nosler Accubond in an -06. Not sure what grain and I wouldn't remember even if he told me. I'm buyin what you're sellin with these Hornady CX bullets.
Respekt Form Swiss
Good stuff man. I appreciate the feedback. That's the word in the street, those ELDX's are very unpredictable on heavy bone. I want a damn sledgehammer that plows through whatever it hits!
What bullet was the broadside elk at 40yds?
It was a 200gr Sierra Gameking. Read the description on their website. It's recommended for high velocity cartridges on large game at close to long ranges.
@@95GTSpeedDemon he’s anti cup and core bullets which is okay and his opinion always going to be the debate between everyone lol but I’ve been happy with the performance of Berger’s out of my 270 wsm on elk and whitetail everything has died in sight I’ve also used Barnes ttsx on elk and whitetail worked good on the elk but never did get the pass through I was looking for ran maybe 30-60 yards the elk I’ve shot with them but the white tails that’s a different story they made it 150 200 yards so I did make the switch to Berger vlds and they’ve been good if it didn’t drop it made it maybe 5 steps
To clarify guys, I'm not anti cup and core. I'm anti cup and core on elk. It's just not worth it. It's fine when the animal dies in sight. Or when you shoot one in the high plains. But when you're in some shit hole canyon and if he moves 10 yards, he's completely out of sight and it's going to take you an hour and a half to get to where he was standing, you want a blood trail. Out of curiosity Wyatt, what was the weight and diameter of the TTSX you hit your elk and deer with and where did you hit them? This stuff all matters. I'm guessing the sectional density of the TTSX you used was under .260 and maybe also he wasn't fully broadside? It's not a universal truth that all mono's will exit. They still have to meet certain criteria.
@@LittleCrowGunworks one of the things that has been brought up on rokslide and the podcast was elk vs deer. Elk dont wear body armor. They arent but a couple inches wider than a whitetail. They are just taller and longer. They dont have magic bones that are made of kevlar. I havent shot one or held parts of an elk so thats all 2nd hand info. I rather people hear all arguments and make a decision for themselves and reevaluate based off of results. I agree, a DRT kill is much better. Thats why im after the TMK type ballistics. Heart and lung shots require the animal to be deprived of blood/oxygen and pass out. That can take awhile sometimes. CNS shock kills instantly. Especially with slower moving elk, a rifle and skill for a follow up shot appear to make a big difference in outcome.
@@LittleCrowGunworks the couple bulls I used it one was 30 yards the other was 225 it was a 130 grain ttsx bullet velocity average of 3230 both were broadside and found bullet on exit side hide the close bull one of the pedals was super mangled so not sure what it hit but yes sectional density is like .242
Has anyone had issues with a eldx or a vld failing if it hit shoulder?
As an Alaskan hunting guide, I had to make a rule NO brand of any kind of lead core bullets in camp and yes, every ELD bullet I seen used on Yukon Moose or AK bears always blow up under the skin
@@dalebenson6859 I have no experience with eldx have put vlds through elk shoulders with out any issues so far
@@wyattlavallee8078 You shoot just a few deer in your lifetime and think all of the Bullet manufacture are tell you the truth when they market lead core match grade target bullets as hunting bullets, and you are a sucker for it ! I am since 1978 a professional hunting guide working in Alaska and the pacific NW with I have killed more game and seen more game killed by clients and all kind of rifles and types of bullets used. So, if you want to write some nonsense that I don't know what I am talking about then who is the lunatic it sure isn't me!
@@dalebenson6859 pretty sure I never called you a lunatic or disagreed with you about eldx lol I just said what my experiences with the vlds on the 15 elk I’ve shot with them have been that being said as far as the bears go I wouldn’t want to use a lead core on them
@@wyattlavallee8078 I am sure you believe all of this bullet manufactures lead bullet nonsenses for you also believe the KZhead fad that Alaskan brown bears are hunter with 10 mm handguns I meet with an old school gunsmith today to work on a Bevex Mauser I own in 8mm-378 Wby mag, and we both have killed Browns bear and it came up the stupid and now ignorant fad of talking 10 mm handguns for hunting brown bears.
I am just surprised that you guys believe that the Barnes lrx bullet is not as suitable as the hornady bullet!
Hey Anthony, I never said the Barnes LRX wasn't as suitable. I just said we like the CX. The CX is lighter and has better BC than the LRX, which will give it better hit probability, all other variables equal. There's nothing wrong with the LRX, or E-Tip, or Trophy Copper, or any other expanding monolithic. But of the expanding monolithic bullets, the CX has the best BC.
@@LittleCrowGunworks thanks for the clarification my 20inch 7prc really like’s them better than the cx bullet, but My goal is harvesting a moose no more than 2 to 300 yards out. In New Hampshire I’m trying to get a tag. My barrel is from the Oregon mountain Rifle company. Its got 1-7.5 twist.
That's a good goal. Hopefully its a 168 LRX you're talking about.
@@LittleCrowGunworks yes!!!
If I can shoot a saucer 75%@ at 500 that would be a dream!!!
Define saucer?
@@LittleCrowGunworks like a paper plate or milk jug.
@@LittleCrowGunworks my thought I want to choose a caliber that I can reload affordable and plentiful. I bought 300 bullets for $80 they were midway over-run bullets, 162 grain 284 caliber. They look great hopefully I can them loaded up by this weekend.
Oh ok. A paper plate at 500, 75% of the time is achievable. But it's going to take a lot of rounds fired at that range, in the wind for you to be good enough to hit it on a cold bore shot 75% of the time.
@@LittleCrowGunworks I have three rifles with carbon fiber barrel and they don’t seem to do that, my struggle is shooting my 7prc having huge gaps after about 4th round of three shot burst. I think I develop a flitch. But with 6.5 prc no issue or 6.5 creedmoor. All have carbon fiber barrels.