How This Battery Is Revolutionizing Energy Storage
How This Battery Is Revolutionizing Energy Storage. Order yourself a LARQ PureVis Bottle to go plastic free and enjoy fresh tasting, pure water on the go bylarq.com/undecided4 There is no perfect energy storage. Every one of them has pros and cons. One might be perfect for electric vehicles, but horrible for another use case because of cost, longevity, power output, etc. But what if you combined two separate technologies into one package? Better yet, what if you could pair two very different batteries together, so they could cover each other's weaknesses? Well, one company is trying to do just that, and has developed a battery that can achieve incredible ranges for something like an EV, all at a lower price than you might think. So, are two batteries really better than one?
Corrections:
5:13 Accidently said carbon-oxygen-bond instead of cobalt-oxygen-bond
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Do you think this battery has a shot? Order yourself a LARQ PureVis Bottle to go plastic free and enjoy fresh tasting, pure water on the go bylarq.com/undecided4 If you liked this, check out Why We Need To Rethink Wind Turbines kzhead.info/sun/obaPZaZ_fIN-fo0/bejne.html
If you question if it has a shot, then stop using the same "new battery WILL CHANGE THE WORLD" kind of title 😉 Thanks for keeping us up to date with future hopes!
There's no way to tell without real world testing, but my concerns are the same as yours at the end of the video. Kinda sounds like when the early cellphones with camera came out, and for quite a while well into the smartphone era. They sucked as both camera and phone, you were much better off having separate dedicated devices. Nowadays however, they have a decent onboard camera and they're okay as a phone as well, so I guess you just have to start the journey to get somewhere. Anyway, I heard "breakthrough" and "revolutionary" enough times in the past without any useful results to no longer get excited about these anymore. I like to be informed about new tech, but I learned to adjust my expectations.
Hybridization of technologies is always how society experiences major leaps in technology. Lets see where the research (pursued best guesses) takes us and how they shake out. Good overview, as is the norm.
@@digiryde Do you have a few examples? Somehow the only hybrid I can think of is the prius, and for sure it was a big buzz for a while and many automakers copied it, nobody really cares about hybrid cars anymore. What other hybridization technologies led to major leaps?
Not with Toyota's solid state batteries going through the final phases of mass production tooling. Solid state seems like the future for EVs unless I missed something.
One of the reasons I like watching this channel is that, when you present a new piece of groundbreaking technology, you also go through all of the potential pitfalls as well. This type of balanced content is why I will continue to watch you even if I do not neccessarily agree with all of your conclusions.
He uses hyperbolic language in every tech, most of which is either not new, doesnt work economically or scientifically exaggerated.
@@barrypoontangHe really doesn't.
@@barrypoontang I highly disagree with this comment.
I like Matt. Sometimes he and Two Bit DaVinci basically regurgitate these random companies BS marketing. Basically free media for essentially scam artists. I don't blame them persay, but I wish they would catch it. I think both of them did videos on that Hydrogren Film for instance. There is this one guy who has basically debunked some of them. Forgot the channel though! Outside of that. Can't wait for the next battery break through through that will never see the light of day! Just playing I'm hopeful. Hope we get Lithium Air, whether it is air included or excluded. 5,000 kw/kg is the max therotical if you include air. Then if you use the air we are surrounded by instead it is up to a whopping 12,000 kw/kg! They can be recharged! Even if we get half those effiencies we could see electric planes. They'd revolutionize the world till micro reactors are possible!(ha. Only 30 years for fusion!) (Edit! I messed up those numbers and said it wrong. I'll leave the original post. Here is the correction fellas and ladies. LIthium-air can achieve 12 kW·h/kg (43.2 MJ/kg) excluding the oxygen mass. So 5,210 or 11,170 Wh/KG for specific energy with the former number being with air, and the second without air. So if we could get 50% of those numbers?! We would be set! Maybe we could get an exoskeleton huh? I'm not really sure how a battery that uses the surrounding air would even work. Would ya need something to constantly suck in air like a super charger for it? Not a clue! So realistically I think that we should be able to do solid state lithium air batteries that give us 2k kw'h/kg. Hope so. Probabaly not.
Having just seen Matt's rules for comment section, I think he has a good mentality - "challenge the argument, not the person". I know bringing that up is only slightly on topic here, but I thought I ought to bring it up regardless.
In computing, they call this "hierarchical storage" where a superfast but expensive (and low capacity) hard drive is where the data starts off being put and is then moved to slower and cheaper storage but all whilst seeming to the end customer as if it is one system
Yes, like "hybrid" drives used to do only a few (5?) years ago. A fairly small (under 5GB) Solid-State Drive integrated with a standard spinning media drive.
Just the addition of one layer, from brain & voice to another person up to brain to paper & pencil to millions of other people, made an incredible difference in the spread of knowledge and eventual productivity of people. Now do that for energy used by vehicles, factories, etc. WOW.
Yep. The issue being that hierarchical storage makes sense because you need different sets of data with different relative frequencies so you can happily trade off size for speed. My CPU doesn't need 4 terabytes of cache. Energy in an EV isn't really like that though; EV batteries need to work like the gas tanks they're replacing. A gas tank gives you access to 100 percent of its storage capacity on demand, if you try to segment off the energy from the user through rationing you're delivering a worse experience.
@@slash196 Energy is fungible so the user doesn't care where it comes from. There's no risk of a cache miss. As long as the main traction battery has enough charge you can get full performance. The only way this could run out is if you are constantly flooring the car which isn't realistic. AFAIK most passenger cars will overheat if you do this.
@@eDoc2020 That's exactly what I thought Lets say the "long-range" portion of the battery can supply 30kW continuously That should be enough to maintain speed at 80 mph but not much else. If you want to go faster, the additional power comes from the "high-power" portion of the battery So if you go on a roadtrip, the long-range battery is used almost exclusively. Regen braking would go into the high-power battery, charging it back up The only problem I see is with fast charging. Since only the high-power part could be fast charged. The long-range battery would take a charge of course, but the majority of the power would go into the high-power battery. Assuming the long -range part can store 80% of the whole packs energy, that could be a problem depending on the rate of charge and relationship of power from the two parts of the battery Lets assume a stop of 15 minutes with 250kW, where the hypothetical 30kW go into the long-range cells. So only 12% of the power charging 80% of the battery and 88% of power charging 20% battery. While the high-power part would be full in that 15 minutes, the charging power has to reduce to only 30kW for another 6 hours or so to charge the long range part back up This whole concept rises and falls with the brains to control everything How to divide power between the batteries? How to decide which to use when?
Some things you left out about the 750 mile test: It was done in Michigan. Winter in Michigan is no joke🥶. Also that very same car had gone 320 miles in a range test with the stock battery pack. And the Gemini pack was the same physical size as the stock pack. Also, one of my pet peeves with far too many "EV nerds" (advocates and "fanboys"") is that they can't, or refuse to comprehend how having to stop more frequently in order to charge can be a bit of a PITA for normal people. That is in addition to having to plan out trips. This eliminates both those problems and allows for spontaneous road trips off the beaten path.
While, yes, advocates online can be overly vocal without listening, I think a part of it really is about reality and fantasy and consumers emphasizing their fantasies of what they do rather than the actual things they do. In reality most people don't drive very far on most days of the year. So overnight/at workplace charging means there's no extra stops most of the time. But people, including me, tend to idealize and fantasize what they might do so the anxiety is over all those big road trips or outdoor adventures that rarely happen. For sure there are plenty of people who do need the range day in day out, but most of us just think we do when we don't.
How many stops do you think an average vehicle makes every day? You have an issue with stopping to charge the vehicle? In many cases vehicles are charged overnight and ready to go the next morning. For long trips, the charging time is an issue, Significant savings on fuel will soon remedy that annoyance Mr IronmanW4 You can get yourself a coffee whilst your waiting or interact with the family. You must be supremely annoyed at catching a flight at an airport. How do you keep yourself occupied in that instance? IT must be horrific
Looking at the actual cell data, volume density seems OK while energy density isn't really that great. I calculated the actual density on the pack level and it's something like 150Wh/kg. This isn't really too amazing. That's not to say there aren't any benefits. However, these are all on the cost end. LFP cells are definitely cheaper and cooling should become way less complex (cheaper). It's nothing ground breaking though.
@@twothirdsanexplosive "I think a part of it really is about reality and fantasy and consumers emphasizing their fantasies of what they do rather than the actual things they do. In reality most people don't drive very far on most days of the year." Well mr or ms "reality & fantasy", can you tell me what the average holiday trip distance is? The average Thanksgiving trip? The average Christmas trip?
PITA? I'm not familiar with that anacronym...🤔
i remember reading a white paper published by tesla back in 2019, they had a prototype hybrid battery where one part is standard LFP but the other part is lithium metal battery. While the lithium metal is incredibly energy dense, it can only be charge and discharge slowly and have a much shorter life cycle. But they were design to target range anxiety issue, so the energy dense part of the lithium metal battery would only need to access very few time. Assuming people don't take long trip every single month, so the shorter cycle life is not an issue, because the long road trip happen infrequently. To address the slow discharge rate issue, they had a system where as the LFP discharge during use, the lithium metal push charge onto LFP. And conversely during charging, the LFP slowly put charge back into lithium metal battery. Lithium metal battery energy density is about 560 wh/kg, compare to 160 wh/kg for LFP battery. so even though in the paper, lithium metal battery only occupied 20-30% of total battery weight, it contribute to half of the total battery energy capacity. I think this was published right before the million battery hype train. So there was some speculation that telsa might announce hybrid lithium metal/other lithium chemistry during battery day. Unfortunately the reality turn out different, and there was no follow up research paper published about the hybrid metal battery. I guess tesla look at the economic and figure it wasn't worth it. But I'm glad another company pick up the hybrid battery concept and go with it to full commercialization.
Rochelle Weber, Matthew Genovese, A. J. Louli, Samuel Hames, Cameron Martin, Ian G. Hill & J. R. Dahn (2019) “Long cycle life and dendrite-free lithium morphology in anode-free lithium pouch cells enabled by a dual-salt liquid electrolyte” Nature Energy doi: 10.1038/s41560-019-0428-9 "Cycling Lithium Metal on Graphite to Form Hybrid Lithium-Ion/Lithium Metal Cells", Cameron Martin, Matthew Genovese, A.J. Louli, Rochelle Weber, J.R. Dahn Science Direct.
Another awesome video. Thanks Matt. I like how you present the technology as "encouraging" and "has great potential"... while still asking questions about the potential downside(s), like "how does it age?" Keep up the great work.
The aging will be very graceful... unless you hit the LMNO cells a lot in harsh climates. Since they're using pure lithium in the anode, that means it comes with the lithium degredation downsides as always. Otherwise, great little battery pack.
Yes, aging if LMO battery might be a catch here. I saw a presentation from ONE a few months ago, and the cycle life is only around 200-300 cycles. So I don't think it is an optimal choice for many long road trips. But it might work well for short drives and occasional road trips. However, I think the car will be still functional even if the LMO battery dies because the LFP battery can still power the car. Unless there are safety concerns.
@@davidbodnar6965 Note that this is not an LMO pack, but an LMNO pack. Fewer downsides than pure LMO other than cost but yes, it is still a concern.
Well done Matt, looking forwards to the progress videos about environmentally significant technologies! ☺️🙏🏽
700+ range would probably get rid of my range anxiety completely. It does partially depend to what extent AC/heat affects these numbers or if these numbers include that.
Heat Pumps in EV's use next to nothing and don't affect range to any great extent.
Ageed. I live in place where it is pretty cold 3-5months a year so 700 is about what I would want knowing how much heating eats before and during driving.
That range test was conducted in Michigan. December in Michigan.🥶
Yes, that 3000 mile one way commute would be possible now and still only charge from home :-) Seriously does anyone need or desire to pay for an EV with 700 miles range? I think the sweet spot will be 350 miles for range that can add 200 miles of range in 10 minutes of charging. Which if you charge at home is would be only a few times a year of fast charging for most.
@@gregkramer5588 the issue is most people havent driven an ev & most ev's don't have 800v charging. i feel like anyone who has an ioniq ev is pretty damn well set up at this point. i've driven from nc to key west and back without issue. even found out it was faster to be less efficient and charge more because more often than not, i had to pee every hr and a half, and the car needs to charge every 3 ish hrs of driving. so if i charged 10 mins every 1.5 hrs while i was using the restroom, it would go from 35-45 to 80 % or so even on 150kw chargers and i never had to worry about running low & it didnt add extra time. if anything it was much faster because i could go 80mpr instead of 65.
I believe that battery development research is very important for future energy usage requirements within different areas of purpose. I truly believe that the batteries of the future will be so much better than those currently developed, manufactured, purchased and used. While I do get tired of hearing a great ramp up on new discoveries only to hear wait there is a catch. Continued research and investment will only help everyone going forward. Example, my power tools are now all battery powered. I no longer need drills, saws and grinders powered with AC. I simply need enough batteries to cover the time needed for the usage. Improvements come over time as well as adoption of newer technologies. The batteries are now better and last longer for my tools as compared to the early models. Matt, great job on the video. Even when I have no idea half of the time as your describing the newer discoveries and technologies with batteries. Smiles & Laughter.... Keep up the great work and thank you for all the time and hard work keeping the Channel moving forward.
@undecidedMF, thank you for sharing!! In November ‘21, id sent an email to the good folks at Munro & Associates, asking them if a hybrid LiMn and LFP battery was possible, but with a different use case. LiMn for fast energy, like acceleration and LFP, for everyday use. I am so excited to see these hybrid use cases coming up in the real world. Love your content - energy, home, Utility, panels, everything !! I have since gone panels and EV, and since net metering started in March ‘23, my home is neutral from then till now. Not sure how the Chicago winter will affect the final 4 months of the first 12. Cheers !!
Great stuff with your solar setup, I hope it does decently for you over the winter as well. I’m close to Buffalo so also close in latitude, this has been one of the bigger concerns with the possibility of doing solar. Well, the cost as well 😬
@@sjsomething4936 , hey, thanks for your note! In addition to 30% federal govt tax rebate, in each state, there are local providers, who can offer 100% financing as well, and would also know all the NY state rebate/ incentives and loan providers. There should be a Buffalo group with some people ready to share what they did. ALl the best !!
9:40 When you're watching one of your favorite tech channels and they give you a shoutout. Made my month! AWESOME breakdown of this cool hybrid battery design, its benefits, AND its pitfalls.
This channel truly deserves 12.5 M subs.. Great work there... Thank you for keeping us updated on Battery Technology... I sincerely believe that EVs have a great potential to transform the automobile sector around the world. ❤
So nice of you
Your information and presentation is amazing. Don’t stop. I always tell people about your KZhead channel
Some of the questions may be worked out by optimization of the BMS. For example for a car that rarely drives longer range, the BMS is supposed to make load balancing not only within the LFP portion, but across the entire pack. Imaginable to get there might be that the load will switch to the long range portion for a while each time the car stops accelerating or decelerating but is just maintaining steady speed. It doesn't need to wait until the range driven on a certain trip is beyond a certain amount of miles. This will eventually balance the lifespan of the entire pack.
I used to watch your channel all the time. I really like your character and your videos are always really well made. This is not about any one particular video you made, but more my general recollection of your videos over time. All the new lab breakthroughs are great, but we never seem to see the products in reality. So it just ended up seeming like a waste of knowledge and time. I would recommend that you focus more on what is already in the mass market. Also if you keep diving into specific areas, I think some sort of 5 minute recap with a spreadsheet showing where the others are on the timeline or something that makes it feel like it's not juts an endless black hole of stuff that you may see some day. I hope I'm making sense.
This reminds me of CPUs in various devices that have P core and E cores, one side does heavy lifting at the cost of more battery life and the other side is slower but more efficient for background tasks. Will it work for vehicles though, hard to know. Certain storage, Solid state drives have limited write cycles for data, kind of like charge cycles for batteries, they improve the life of the overall device by moving data to the less used cells instead of repeatedly using the same ones, they also have a RAM cache in some that improves performance but it also reminds me of this battery system because it can reduce wear on the cells too because the RAM cache doesn't suffer from limited writes.. i guess kind of like a capacitor in electronics, I'm just rambling but it reminds me of how some of our existing technology already works.
Your analogy to P and E cores is not really correct. The P and E architecture does not make Intel's chip necessarily more energy efficient. Intel tried to tackle their Power problem. Where putting a chip full of P cores simply burns too much energy per second. The E cores are slower and thus will take longer to complete most tasks and use more energy in the process but with the advantage of dragging it out over more time and space. It really depends on the tasks if this also makes it more energy efficient.
@@Cody-qe8uw the reason the e and p cores work is not many applications utilize heavy multithreading, so the P cores still have 2 threads, but offloading the background tasks to the E cores helps with efficiency, but yeah overall power usage is... not much different. AMD has also done some really amazing work with TSMC's 5nm architecture (and it's 7nm even) to really get some massive effiency gains. I remember intel bragging that their 10nm would far outdo TSMC's 7nm and it didn't really work out that way.
@@Cody-qe8uw i'm talking in general, i was mostly speaking about ARM, they typically have 2 cpus. So you can say it's not really correct no matter how you look at it because each is different but i speak in general terms which is why i didn't mention Intel, ARM, AMD... But you are also wrong with your own "correction", CPUs require more voltage the higher you clock them and this isn't an even curve, the voltage goes up incredibly as you reach its recommended clock limit, and if you overclock then its considerably more voltage to squeeze tiny performance, P cores are going to Turbo, or at least have a higher boost. Different chips perform differently, intel tests this and thats how they end up with many different clocked cpus, This is also why AMD cpus can clock differently because of its infinity fabric technology using the same CPU. Windows as well as android and IOS use something labeled background process which is a light task, and typically the OS will throw this on the energy different cores. assuming the OS and BIOS is modern, to explain it in simple terms, which is what i said in my first post in even more simpler terms because people are not going to care about the specifics.. its a youtube comment.....
Matt alluded to the problem but I'll spell it out. The LiFePO4 does nearly all the high energy work. So say it's 20kWh and the rest of the battery is another 50 or 60kWh (I have no idea how the split actually works but if your stated aim is to keep the battery light you can't go too big with the LiFe component). All the cycling used for actually moving the vehicle comes from that 20kWh pack. So typical a BMWiX SUV does about 3.4miles per kWh (that's generous). That's about 68miles per cycle when new falling to about 50 miles at 70% DOD. Average lifespan for a well managed LiFe pack might be 2500 cycles for EV use (because quite often it will be running at very high C rates). Remembering that you lose capacity as the battery cycles that gives us a maximum usable range for that pack of 150,000 miles. This is obviously just a maths exercise and real world may prove very different but I doubt consumers would be happy with that.
This dude has one of the most satisfying intros on youtube I swear. I'm so excited to see how energy tech evolves and I'm jazzed to hear about all the research being done!
The Edison Truck recently pulled 100,000 lbs. The battery was high discharge to overcome initial inertia, but once underway it dropped to about 1/5. The diesel electric generator thus is sized small, and overall weight is less than a Tesla semi. The Hybid approach makes sense, but you will need enough fast charge to recoup braking energy.
Hi yah, love your KZhead platform videos and for sometime now I've been checking out your shows. Couldn't find the link for the LARQ? In any case I'm pretty good at problem solving and innovative. 😊
I've decided this channel is totally awesome! ❤🎉😊
I watched ONE’s new video when they released it immediately, and I also had similar question like you mentioned. I’m glad that you discuss more about it.
Each time i have a question come up, you answer it in the next section, great video!
Thank you for keeping us updated
I think it will have its use case for it. Definitely want to see where this goes
Super interesting, and well-presented as always. Likewise an as-always great job discussing potential gotchas. I’m curious: Why they don’t tap both the LFP and anodeless pack at the same time during normal driving? Draw from the anodeless at whatever rate it can provide, get the rest from the LFP. That’d both extend LFP range and reduce the number of charge cycles. There must be some reason why they don’t do this, I’d be interested to know. I liked the hexagonal strength/weakness diagrams, it would be interesting to see what conventional LiIon looks like on one of those charts. (I understand that these were just what the company had on their website though.)
Because the anodeless side has miserable a charging lifetime. You only want to draw from it when you have absolutely no other choice, or you'll never draw from it again.
@@PhilKulak Ah, that was the missing piece for me, thanks!
Variable amperage circuits are next to impossible. You can vary voltage, but amperage? Nope. Now in the age of quick cycling silicon power inductors for DC... one could "chop" it in technically, but this is... inefficient and expensive.
Google search for "BU-205: Types of Lithium-ion" and the first result will be an article with those diagrams you like!
This is certainly an interesting development, Matt. Its success will be a function of availability, cost, life and reliability. If it delivers on all of those points then it may well become the standard. OTOH, there are other competing technologies. We keep hearing about the Solid-State battery, its myriad advantages and promises of ultra-long range and longevity though not so much about its cost or availability. The IC engine has been around for more than 100 years and has undergone many iterations and improvements though not what could be called an evolution. Batteries, OTOH, have been around for more than two hundred years and, only recently, have we seen any real effort towards what could genuinely be called evolutionary. We are less than 20 years into the battery-powered EV automobile revolution but I believe we will be seeing breakthroughs comparable to what we've experienced in the Microprocessor revolution that began, in earnest, in the 1970's. If that is the template for the EV industry then within a decade we should be seeing battery powered automobiles with ranges of 1000 miles or more costing approximately what an ICE powered vehicle would cost.
Thanks for sharing, certainly sounds like a company to keep an eye on. Wishing you and your family the best.
Using one battery to charge the other sounds like it'll lose at least a bit of efficiency, and i assume the annode free battery doesn't have the continuous output to supply a car, so how far can you actually go before it has to start tapping into that to keep the other from running dry? With all those questions asked, having a multi layered and interconnected approach for short and long term energy storage in grid scale sounds amazing too. Using one for day to day swings and the other for yearly trends seems really good
Always great info. Thanks!
That thing sounds great - one could even imagine a triple combination with a supercap added on top to either suck up 10 extra miles of range in 3 seconds from an induction field at a traffic light or aid recuperation or support your moment of insane acceleration.
Hi matt,great vid,have just subscribed,2 batteries sound interesting as you say if you only drive locally would we outlive the other battery !!!! It would be interested if a gemini battery is put into a salt bath to see if it catches fire and widely televise it cause fire is the main thing for me,charging is fine because i have a driveway. anything to stop cobalt in the DR congo is only a good thing.
I am really glad to see this video. I have been following this company waiting for more news. It is good to see that BMW is moving forward with it.
interesting that they used lfp for the quick power, i thought Lmc were the better choice for that. Wonder why they didn't use LTO batteries for that then? Great video as always. Be interested what you choice was for your home batteries.
Agreed, LTO would be ideal for this dual chemistry approach. Big fan of the LTO chemistry safety too.
That 752 miles really hit me. Before that, I was listening carefully and thinking, "Yeah, why not? That might work with a couple of years of development." but it already doubling the standard, again, really hit me.
Interesting - I like the extended battery life that One offers. It is certainly stepping in the right direction. It would be good to see the full product lifecycle from build through to disposal. But it is certainly one of the more innovative products to come out of the battery world... 👍
This is really interesting, as this may be a cheaper way to have both long vehicle battery life and range. However, thinking of LOTS of renewables and necessity to store/balance energy, I'd say going full LFP (and later- sodium battery variants with similarly high charge cycle numbers) is much better for Vehicle to Grid system. Only cars with batteries that can do ~5k cycles seem like safe choice for VtG, as 5000 cycles=13.6 years of daily discharge. For my own country (Lithuania) that is moving into wide wind + solar generation, I would certainly advocate subsidizing wide LFP+VtG use, instead of cars with hybrid batteries.
Good morning everyone!
This is one of those cases where I first want to see it working out in the wild fo.r a few years before I would buy a car with it. Especially since the range of current Tesla's and some other cars would satisfy my needs in 99.9% of my usecases.
The more I think about extra long range batteries, the more I think the tech is best applied to make batteries smaller for the same range, as that would be better for the environment and society. (Less materials mined, an overall more efficient vehicle with less weight, easier on the roads since heavier cars cause more wear and tear, not to mention that heavier cars can produce more particulates or soot from tires wearing out)
I completely agree @dropshot1967. Companies are trying to invent a magic bullet battery that can take an EV 500+ miles while having decades of lifespan, but I wonder if this is more of a wrong tool for the job issue. I wonder rather if the US market wouldn't be better served by hyper-specializing EVs for sub-400-mile range (cheaper, longer-lived, plentiful, renewable) and making a good rail network for trips outside of 400 miles with ease of renting cheap vehicles at your destination or near-by hub. Maybe manufacturers should get more into the rental game and use it as a platform to promote purchasing their products over competitors. "Going on a trip? Try our car and see what you are missing!"
@@jeffbenton6183I agree 100%. Think out of the ICE box. It’s not one size fits all batteries that is the problem. It is the one size fits all ICE predecessor which has set a convenience expectation. Educating consumers that they don’t need a 500 or 1000 mile range in their cars between charges will be important. The greater the max the more the wasted energy in the actual use case hauling around a bigger battery. This battery, in a much smaller and much less costly form, could be useful for a 200 mile range urban/suburban vehicle. 1/3 the size knocks $2-3k (of comparable packs) off the cost of the car. A sub $10k ur/suburban car should be attainable. Why rent a car? Rent a range extending battery pack for the weekend or vacation.
The end of the ICE era is taking us the opposite direction. Owning a 400+ hp car (or light truck) for driving 30 miles a day with rare stabs at the throttle is a crazy waste.
@@csmarkham I was referring to 400 mile RANGE, not horsepower.
"20,000 EV battery packs per year by 2027" is kind of a drop in the bucket for what sounds like an amazing leap in battery tech--surely they can ramp faster than that?
I agree, that number seemed quite small.
That jumped out to me too - that just about covers the monthly production of Tesla Model Y in Berlin alone. They’ll need to produce waaaaaaay more than that to make a meaningful impact. It does sound like a very promising tech though.
Very informative, thanks :) At 5:07 you accidently said carbon-oxygen-bond instead of cobalt-oxygen-bond (you wrote it correctly in your script/subtitles)
Yes, you are right! Whoops. Thanks for pointing that out.
@@UndecidedMF You also said that oxygen is flammable. It isn't, but it is necessary for combustion. Other than that, great vid.
The end of your video implicitly touched on something I've been thinking about for a while: EVs should have permanent batteries sized for daily/usual activities, BUT with the capability of adding an auxiliary battery for trips. Carrying around the extra weight of unnecessary batteries is a waste that hastens the end of their lifespan. The feature would also allow a small auxiliary battery to serve provide an emergency jumpstart to get an EV that ran out of juice to a charging station.
i loved your D&D reference there ;)
Looks very promising. Good algorithms for battery management should be able to ensure equal wear between the cells. LFP is a workhorse and the biggest issue probably would be over or under use of the other chemistry. Under use can be fixed by ensuring it gets used enough during downtime/charging. Overuse would likely be harder to solve. If you drive several hundred miles per day you may need to chuck the cell too early. Will be watching to see what the new iX does. Longer range or smaller pack? It could be that rather than getting the biggest range possible consumers would be served by selecting the right pack size for normal daily use to ensure good wear.
ONE also makes the batteries for RYOBI power tools so they're not new to this game. They're good at standardization, so if they're looking at the problem with EV's as well, this could be a good fit for them. I don't think we'll ever get to a PERFECT battery for EVs. I love my Tesla Y but do wish it had a longer range. This pack may be a middle step until some better chemistries are proven. Keep digging into the battery tech Matt. Great find and great work!
I have been following ONE for a while and hope to see them become a battery juggernaut. Would like see you do some video on aptera
I was thinking this would be a superconductor/battery combination. I really like that concept too
i hope/assume they will have some logic in the battery pack to manage the load on the battery cells to reduce its endurance evenly. i do hope its not just using the small portion all the time but try to use the lower performing part in parallel maybe, since i would think charging battery A with B if A is almost depleted sounds whastefull also + you reduce the endurance of the performance battery if you let it charge + discharge instead of bypassing it
Definitely seems a solid concept. Hopefully it brings down the cost of EVs in the future.
Neat concept, put into practice. Its probably harder done than, said, is the reason no one else tackled this issue?
Costs are important, but the Idea ist great. The differnent Lifespan problem could maybe softened by a clever BNS. What i am woundering is if an Combination with Super Conductors for very fast charging could be helpful?
Really great, your sharing friend. Thank you
I’m not sure if it’s been done but I always thought using super/ultra capacitors would be perfect for fast charging and regen for stop and go city driving, acceleration and hill climbs then have a longer range battery for highway driving
Thank you and good morning!!!
Good morning!
Wow! Looks very promising! Finally, someone putting technology to work!!! Can't wait to see further advancement... Bet the motorcycle industry is licking its chops... Great stuff Matt!
I liked the D&D reference at the end👊👍
I remember just a few years ago, discussions of just this but with capacitors and lithium, same principle but much easier and can supply higher peak output, with the capacitors recharged in seconds.
I feel like every few months we hear about this great new battery technology and then nothing ever comes of it.
Life is full of problems of today and promises of a fix for tomorrow, however all too often those fixes for tomorrow never pan out and we live with the aches and pains of our grandeur of a better life that never comes. Matt, you're pretty good at seeing the whole story, not just the superficial hype of greener grass. Keep up the good work.
I'm very happy to see Michigan getting these jobs. It sounds very exciting. I hope this provides lots of opportunities for people to prosper.
I heard a couple of months ago in a podcast there will be hybrid ev sodium/lithium battery with cost and range between a pure sodium and a pure lithium battery.
Well its the first hybrid pack I have ever heard of so far for a car. So make sense "why no one has ever done before". New batteries are coming thus hybrids packs will be soon become normal to hear about soon. Esp as they switch over from Solid State, Na, Sulfur type batteries. All reduce the amount of battery we need, all reduce the cost of current packs. 700+ Miles is more than "Good enough" for a lot of people as well. Thus even these battery packs might start reducing the amount of over all batteries they use in the pack. That means more ramp for building them, but also reduce cost for everyone. Let alone less risk the less cells you put into a pack. Another thing is they used LFP - there is also LFMP now that adds another 20% - so we could be looking at cars that might do more closer to 800 or even 1000 miles if you start adding the other stuff up. You can easily cut that up to 500 for a starting battery, 700 for mid range of cars, and 1k for the long range versions. Switch to NaLFMP batteries - cut the price in half - we could see battery packs cost as much as 5k$ to replace when the time comes.
Neat stuff. Hope it lives up to at least 3/4 of the hype.
My understanding is that a combination of Li battery + ultra capacitor can achieve the same goal. The relatively small capacity ultra-capacitor is used for bursts of acceleration and to capture the energy from regenerative braking and as needed/appropriate the capacitor relatively slowly draws power from the battery or relatively slowly recharges the battery. Capacitors can potentially be simpler and less expensive than the fast battery discussed in this video.
Ultra capacitors are on the other side of the equation it can cycle infinitely. It would go UltraCap Li-Ion LFP. What it comes down to, is these systems are totally dependent on the usage patterns. Stop and go traffic would benefit from a UltraCap, short commutes with the occasional long drive would be Li+LFP, long drives the majority of time would be pure Li-Ion.
Looks good. Thanks for the update. Jim Bell (Australia)
I've been speaking about combined battery chemistries for cars for a long time now. It was a pretty obvious solution, especially when most people don't drive more than 30 miles
They can do some tricks with software-controlled balancing between subpacks to even out the degradation, they just need to be confident that their performance curves match their cells.
Unless I didn't hear correctly it seems at first you said the LiFePo batteries were for longer stretches of driving while the anode free was able to do fast charging and short commuting bursts but then switched that less than five minutes later, so now I'm confused, which does which exactly?
Fantastic content. Thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
To answer your question, yes it has a shot in the short term. A huge amount will depend on the TCO calculation over a two or three year period and also if this format will power a full size pick up truck in commercial conditions. Based on the weather/load/towing discounts on range I have seen so far it might just barely be acceptable for that use.
I couldn't help but think of how the tech being discussed here appears in such stark contrast to the woefully out of date thinking expressed by Alberta's premier this past week. Batteries have been around a long time, but so little research has been done on them for widespread use cases. We're only playing catch up right now. Trying to prevent grid storage and renewable research and development in order to save a dying oil industry... hard to imagine much worse blind short-sightedness.
Why is not headline news? Range anxiety is a real limiting factor for some people. I take a large number of 300-400km trips in Saskatchewan during our cold winters and charging is scarce in rural areas. Tech like this will get people like me to adopt sooner.
So juicy! Love it. Batteries and storage is the key.
My worry is when the LFP side starts to degrade that there may be the differences enough that will cause the "2nd" battery to drain part of its capacity to try to keep the LFP at power. It is the same reason why you use the same type of rechargeable batteries in portable devices. It sounds to me like they fixed the NEW battery issues, but what about the later in life... Also when you start to loose range on the LFP you will hit the 2nd battery more often Definitely an interesting idea, I guess we shall see once they are in use what the problems are
I have no knowledge about this particular cell, but typically LFP cells are known to are really long lasting. Typically much more cycle life than you might need in typical EV applications. That is why they are the go to solution for stationary high cycle applications.
Typically LFP is more robust than the NMC batteries. I doubt this FUD is warranted.
I have lfp batteries from 2008 that are still going just not as strong as new.
The description of how a hybrid operates is incorrect at 7:00. A hybrid typically only has ~1-2 kWh battery. This mainly for capturing energy via regen vs using friction braking. That captured energy is then used to help accelerate the vehicle back up to speed. The IC engine doesn't need output as much power so it will be much more fuel efficient, but the engine still needs to run almost all the time. Only exception is at very low speeds like in a parking lot. This because of limited battery capacity, and the small electric motor sized with much less power vs the paired IC engine. The ICE will never shutoff at highway speeds (as was depicted). It's possible Matt was referring to a REx EV (Range Extended), where a ~15-20 kWh battery is supplemented with an onboard generator powered by an ICE. Chevy Volt, and BMW i3 are early examples, but now the cost of ICE generator is now more than adding extra battery. A REx would have been a good comparison analogy. One area not really talked about related to EVs, is DC charging on road trips. Charging speed (maximum current) is missing from the comparison graph at 2:50 (as is mass density). With the smaller (everyday) battery being a smaller capacity, it's ability to charge fast would be diminished. Likely by half, so instead of charging at 150 kW, maximum power would be 75kW (or less if less that half the total capacity) before being charged. The longer range (occasionally use) battery needs to charge slower. This would not be an issue if the pack has 700 mile range and that's all the driving that would be done in a day. But if pack is only 400 miles, then driving more than 500 miles could create added charging delays. To be pragmatic, the driving use case needs to be more focused on local driving, and only moderate range driving trips.
lovely plan... solid state might be the other chemistry that has those companies waiting and experementing
This sounds like the perfect battery for battery swapping. If you mostly need city/short range swap to that pack, if you suddenly need a longer range grab one of those. Cost wise the battery provider can tailor their stock to what’s needed rather than the customer paying more than necessary. Similarly with life spans, the suppliers can recycle and change stock in the background without affecting the end user. I don’t normally endorse battery swapping but this might be a good option for electric vehicles with unknown usage levels.
I agree, I think battery swapping should be the way forward as per your points about recycling etc. They can be charged elsewhere also. Charge your own when you ain’t in a rush etc but on longer journeys or other things a 5 mins swap and off you go
Makes sense I wonder how long before they miniaturize the technology into each cell.
It seems like the "anode free" battery would be great as some kind of thing you could load into your trunk for long haul trips. Or imagine going to the auto shop to have one installed before a big trip, then returning it afterwards
Nobody is going to want to do that. If it is in the trunk it takes up space on your big trip, which is precisely when you need all your cargo space. If you have to get it installed it'll be too much of a hassle.
It may be that, operated in a more "convenient" range/cycle, the AF battery will have a longer life as when only used on its own, thus matching the LFP in durability.
I’m fine with using the LFP portion for routine work. LFP cells tolerate charging to higher SOC and have a higher cycle rating (slower degradation). The thing I have not seen any info about yet, is how / what rate and time does one need to recharge the ‘anode free’ portion of the battery pack, when ‘on the road’ and using that extra capacity when, say traveling cross-country? I’m going to do some more looking; will add info as I see more. Thanks for any replies on constraints / limitation for recharging the anode free portion of the Gemini pack!!
ONE has mentioned that the anode-free part of the battery will be limited to a 5-hour charge maximum. So it's one-and-done in a roadtrip setting unless you have access to an 11 kW charger overnight.
@@slash196 Can you drop a link to the info? I’d like to read more. 1&done would be a little bit of a bummer. I have 11.2 at home, but usually only 7.2-9.6 kW are findable traveling. Interested in whether the AF portion will still work with (lower range available) capacity added back if getting partial recharge on an available Level 2
Very cool hybrid pack design, the comment about lifespan is the main issue I see. Anode free cells are difficult to make let alone make last. Plating lithium is basically dendrite formation, and whatever separator they are using will have to be very robust. That said its unclear how many cycles that subpack will have. Definitely still promising
One other use case for EV batteries is V2G (vehicle to grid) or V2H (vehicle to home) where the EV battery takes the place of a home battery. California is looking at encouraging this since one EV battery has the storage capacity of 4 to 7 Tesla Powerwalls. Using EV batteries to do load shifting on the grid could really help. My question is whether this use case would work with this battery without shortening its life too much.
Thank you Matt, this is a great video. 😎
Glad you liked it!
Thanks for bringing attention to this technology. One thought that is of concern is the potential for slow-walking by big petroleum investors who are actually interested in arbitraging oil (already developed with extensive supply chains) against a product that takes away from the value of the oil in production AND in the ground as a reserve. This effect of acquiring the competition to slow it down is not new and has worked many times before.
@undecidedMF How would you feel about mixed battery using something like this LI and those aluminum batteries from India for longer trips?
A couple things that make lifepo4 good is the voltage discharge curve is very stable through most of the charge/discharge cycle, while other li-ion chemistries, the voltage drops along the whole cycle. Lifepo4 usually have several time more cycle life. Lifepo4 are also almost impossible to start on fire.
re: "Lifepo4 are also almost impossible to start on fire." so goes the myth anyway, unfortunately you have go tell that to the town in Australia that recently had a fire in it's Tesla 2nd Gen Big Battery installation (ie, the 2nd Gen's being LFP).
Wonderful presentation. I will definitely be looking into ONE as a future investment.
The caveats are worth noting. E.g. only doing city driving, and only using the LFP portion. But can't they just install some software to optimize the LFP and Anode free portion? E.g., have the anode free portion trickle charge the LFP when its running low? This would be a classic optimization problem, in hybrid setups.
We hear this again and again and again. Im getting jaded by “new battery technologies that will change the world”
Definitely promising. It will be interesting to follow its development.
I was thinking of doing this in my custom ev I want to build but I was going to use lithium titanate for the daily drive and lfp for the long range but that battery is even more dense!
Cobalt being thermally unstable is also due to the fact it's application is to deal with heat and therein is put in batteries allowed extra throughput.
CATL, the largest battery manufacturer has plans to make a similar pack with LFP and Na+ion batteries. LFP being the energy dense and sodium ion performing better in low temperatures.
One battery to rule them all... I really like that they are also going to focus being 'circular'. We need to start working the way nature works, seeing everything as just energy transference in repeating cycles.
My bet is that the tiered approach for batteries in EVs will be dominant once the technologies for the different battery types have settled. Currently, there are so many proposals, prototypes and variants out there competing with each other, that any attempt at a tiered approach will be outdated when the next cell type comes along. But given time, the field will get more calm, and some of the champs will be determined. And then you can have the small, fast-charging battery type, which tolerates many burst charging and discharging cycles for acceleration and recuperation purposes and a second, dense, high capacity battery type holding the charge for long trips, constantly recharging the small battery.
Good idea but what about testing the quality did they leak the inode battery .
Can you start all these battery episodes with a list of all the developing battery tech in order of best (if successful) to worst?
The typical failing of mixing battery chemistries has been the different base voltage of the chemestry. Mixing Alkaline (1.5 v/cell) with NiCd) 1.2 v/cell) has the NiCd overcharged and damaged before the Alkaline is 50%. and at low end, the NiCd stillhas most of its charge when the Alkaline is damaged from excess discharge. (recognizing Alkaline doesn't survive recharge well anyway...) Just a small chemistry change can make a significant difference in the base voltage. We can't mix Lion with LiPo. Both are lithium based, but have different base voltages.
I think it'd be smart for them to have some significantly smaller batteries along with the big Gemini. A GeMini, if you will :). I think it would also be good for them to show both expected ranges instead of just the big total. Like we have city/highway mileage for ICE cars, they'd show short/long ranges.
Much of expected range is not only based upon battery, but also aerodynamics of the vehicle. Think: same engine & gas tank from a Miata transplanted into a Hummer
@@DavidHalko Yeah, it'd have to be per vehicle for sure, but if they're effectively splitting the ranges I hope they disclose the expected ranges in each mode.
One thing I noticed is they are pushing for a "same size, double range" concept... which isn't most users. How about a half sized version for economy cars and even quarter sized for NEVs? The fact they are only looking at the high end long range segment tells me they haven't really broke the price barrier.