A Surge Protection Device is not a Lightning protection System 🌩️⚡
Just a bit of an explanation after my last video on why an SPD is not the same as a LPS. I also explain why we cannot use the metal frame of the garage as a ground point for our SPD. It needs to be a separate cable rather then the frame.
Lightning ans Surge Protection by Novaris:
www.novaris.com.au/uploads/1/0...
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DISCLAIMER
By watching the video, you agree:
All electrical work must be carried out as per your local laws, rules and regulations. Installations and setups shown in my videos are for test and demonstration purposes only and may not satisfy regulatory requirements. Installation are temporary, for the above purpose and for making these videos. Most electrical work is not for DIY purpose and must be conducted by a trained and qualified person. Please always check your local regulations!
Any liability for conducting your own work, in particular, any consequential damages arising therefrom, shall be excluded.
I love it when something pulls your leg, watched every video even i don't want to
Super glad you are being featured. I love your personality and really appreciate your sharing of information and experience. I wish you the best in growth and success. I was actually going to move to Australia, in 1996. I worked with some guys in, lets say, the Firearms Industry. Then well, you know what happened. This was literally 3 months before we were scheduled to move headquarters. Dodged that bullet. Pun intended.
Thank you Rob, much appreciated!
Woot,woot,Mr.Andy is blowing up.been watching and subscribed for a while now.the community here have learned many things to do and not to do from your channel.you rock
Thanks for a great channel, although not picked up on you on trending, I clicked the bell and subbed last week, I’ve watched nearly every video in the last week and ordered a lot of my equipment based on your research and lessons you learned. You and Ray from ray builds stuff have been very helpful for a newbie off grid garage project I’m working on 😀 thanks and keep it up!!! (Ps solar panel nightmare dream sequence closing episode was amazing 🤣🤣🤣)
Thanks a lot Leigh, great to have you here on the channel!🥰
most happy for this great information and experience more growth and success.
For what you offer and help with ,you should have 10x the subs …seriously .
Congrats Man!!!💥
Congratulations on the KZhead trending page!
Wishing you exponential channel growth and less sticky situations.
Thanks for your support, Andrew!
Great video very informative. Keep up the great work! 👍
Thanks! 👍
Yup I just saw it I thought it was cool. Great job 👍
Sehr cool wie dein Kanal ab geht ! Erst Recht wenn man deine Videos schon länger guckt :) Bleib so wie du bist und führe dein Style einfach weiter durch ! :)
Danke Dir vielmals 🥰
We are many in OffGrid Sweden following you 👍🏻
Thank you!
Hello from România! I love your channel and I'm subscribed since you've made the video about the JK BMS, on which I was about to order it, but i tried to find opinions first. Love your channel. Take care and keep the videos coming. 🤗
Thank you very much, Marius. Greatly appreciated.
Andy, I built the house myself, steel frame, colour bond roof on a concrete slab, all properly engineered, inspected and certified. Did the solar myself, ground mounted panels, but when it came to wiring up the house I got a qualified electrician in, firstly for the safety of my family, secondly legally I'm not allowed to touch AC. It's a big house, miles of cabling for all the circuits, so at 4 points in the house he put ground rods internally in the frame and through the slab, so the frame itself is grounded. The battery shed is about 30m from the house, it has 2 separate ground rods, one for the DC gear then one for the AC DB. The line to the house DB is underground as per regulations, the house DB then has it's own ground rod as well. The Solar setup has been going and growing for 10 years, we lived in a shed about the size of the Off Grid Garage whilst I built the house, which is now about 6 years old. We've had many thunder storms including a massive one last night, during all that time I've lost 5 panels from what I believe to be a lightening strike, cracked cells, molten connectors, could have been a massive short circuit, who knows, each array has it's own ground rod and a combiner box with fuses, RCD etc. Point is, I do not have SPD, we're Off Grid, or LPS and I'm not bothered, we're on the plains, out in the open. Maybe the wiring code is different in SA compared to Qld, but I feel pretty safe.
Thanks for sharing, that's very interesting.
Thanks for covering that out Andy, I was just about to comment on lightning protection, static and over-voltage protection in the last video but expected you would cover it in this segment. In regards to service grounding, basically your Solar Arrays electrical services and many of the same conventions should apply as in utility service connections, and deriving a ground with frame of a metal building is potentially about the most dangerous thing one could do as metal sections of the building could end up dangerously charged. Grounding is firstly about establishing safe electrical potential between electrical systems and people, with Earth ground being the lowest potential. If you grounded your combiner box to the frame you would create another unknown ground potential between the metal in your building above Earth potential, thereby electrifying a wall, roof or door. Basically in all electrical service systems have to include Overload protection, Short-circuit protection, and grounding protection for people. In the case your PV system you are adding over-voltage protection. Without cracking the books, offhand I'd say that if the MOVs are intended to provide over-voltage protection for your Charge Controllers, and not grounding protection for people, then they need be at connected at the same ground potential as your Charge Controllers, and your PV arrays with sufficient current carrying capacity to drain of any expected over-voltage sources. If that's Solar PV then might only need a bond it with a conductor large enough to keep your panel voltage below the limit of the Charge Controllers. Offhand, as you don't have a lot of current potential from your solar arrays, then I don't seen the need for Photo-voltaic surge, but rather static or lighting surge. And in that case you need to be concerned with also the potential between earth ground and your PV arrays, the MOVs, and therefore the MOVs would have to have be bonded to earth ground with enough capacity to drain off whatever the expected static charge might. In the case of static surface effect that could be small, in the case of a nearby lightning strike that could be more moderate and something a light ground conductor to earth could handle, but in the case of a large, the surge from a direct lightning hit to your PV array could be beyond the capacity of the MOVs and large earth connection. I mentioned Bonding and Grounding earlier, and in the case of lightning surge protection, having the frames of your PV arrays and your metal building bonded at the same earth potential could help direct a lightning discharge away before it gets to the MOVs, but bonding your PV Panels to Earth can place them at a higher potential for a lightning strike. If however, you are in an area subject to frequent and large lightning strikes, then installing a Lighting Protection in addition to equipment surge protection might be a consideration to protect your investment. Having done some lightning and static surge protection on offshore platforms and the Arctic, and tropics, Personally I'd feel reasonably comfortable with a #10 or larger ground conductor from the MOV breakers up at the roof, and install secondary MOV protectors at the Charge Controllers bonded to a heavy earth ground, (say a dedicated copper rod) with the Combiner box MOVs bonded to that main ground as well. Personally, I'd also be inclined to bond the frames of my PV Panels with copper bonding jumpers (#10 to #4) and bond them to earth gerund to try to keep static away from the PV cells and equipment. However, in sandy or swampy areas where the ground is not a good conductor and you have very large lightning strikes, then all of what I just mentioned could go out the window and you might need to consider a proper LPS system and things like capaticive protection in addition to MOVs
Thank you very much, Jack. That is great information.
I always agree with bonding, it gives diversity. I have an earthing busbar in my setup nice big copper bar, that goes down to a hefty earth rod (bright copper) that I got off a job some time ago. In summer the ground can get quite dry so I have setup a drip feed system to keep the ground moist but not to moist (arguing project to measure how moist the ground is). At the end of the day electricity will take the path of least resistance and my setup complies with the UK regulations so I am 😊
@@evelbsstudio Indeed, Good points. Andy with his Metal building, multiple solar arrays, has a bit more more elements than most home solar systems. And the potential for different potentials and circulating currents both static and inductive could present some challenges for bonding and grounding. Bounding is not always connecting everything to earth. There are situations when sub-panels, transformers, and power generation sources should and should not be grounded, and/ or cannot be grounded by regulation. And considerations that are not always obvious when it comes to bonding. I used to live up the road from Andy on the Sunshine Coast and encountered an electrical engineer and inspector who were wrongly interpreting regulations without an underlying understanding of what they were administering or why. The Australian Electrical Code back then seemed a bit ad-hoc when compared to American, U.K., Japanese, and maritime electrical codes. Hopefully that's changed, I'll have to look for a copy of the Aussie EC and see what it looks like today.
If ya want something to try and hold up to lightning you get some MOV's rated for 100KA and above and you also use some nice size TVS diodes aswell as they have a faster clamping time than any MOV does and well a ground for anything electrical for mains is ALWAYS a lump of condutive shit in the ground AKA a long ground rod
@@Trent28888 Good tip! However, a single ground rod might not be adequate to drop a 100,000 amps at a million volts down to below 100v. In Alaska where lightning is pretty rare, to protect say a 60X80 ft. metal building with sensitive and expensive electronics required about 8 1" copper ground rods driven 44ft into the permafrost, and about 1200ft of 4/0 cadwelded copper ground grid burred 8ft below surface, and bonded about every 10ft to the building, partly because permafrost is not a good conductor but also because 31kv 20MW power-plant was on the same location and circulating currents from the power station in the ground were a consideration.
It's the same rule in the USA National Electrical Code. The building should be bonded to ground or "grounded" but it is not a "ground" for the electrical system. Another similar example: In the NEC it used to be permitted to use an incoming metal water pipe as your "grounding electrode" but that change many years ago. Now if you have metal pipes those are typically connected to the electrical panel ground bus just like the old days, but that is to ground the pipes, not to ground the electrical panel. The panel also must have that ground bus connected to a proper grounding electrode. In a similar way a metal building might be connected to the electrical panel ground, which confuses people into thinking the electrical ground is via the building, instead of actual the building is grounded via the panel.
Great explanation Sylvan. Yes, that is the same here. The garage is grounded but we cannot use this as a subsidy for a ground cable. Many got this wrong I know the pipe rule as well. This is more about to bring all metal objects on the same ground level. The incoming pipe could be isolated with a plastic water meter at your house and have a different potential as the rest of your pipework in your building. Hence there is a ground cable bypassing the water meter. This is also for when the meter gets replaced so the plumber is safe from potential different and dangerous voltages.
That's cool I find this very interesting
hello friend teacher 🤝, congratulations on your off-grid project, I gladly follow you friend 👍🎞 a hug from Italy 😁👋🏻😊
Thanks Giuseppe. Haven't been to Italy since the 70s. Beautiful country and people!
👍🤝😊
Maybe its different in your country, The SPD they installed on my solar system is in the breaker box near the solar charge controller/inverter. The combiner box is on the roof under the solar panels mounted. The SPD has its own copper grounding rod, separate from the AC system ground rod even though they are within 5ft of each other. I just pulled out the manual on the SPD in my system given to me after install. It says its a NEMA Type 1 SPD, model TPS3M0305 by Siemens. Direct reference from the manual says.. "The main purpose is to protect insulation levels of the electrical system against external surges caused by lightning, capacitor switching, or transient surges ". Then in the back of the manual, it labels transient surges as "Transients and Surges are the same phenomenon. Transients and Surges can be current, voltage, or both and can have peak values in excess of 10kA or 10kV. They are typically of very short duration (usually >10 µs &
Thanks William, great info here. What cable size does the ground cable of your SPDs have? Same as the other solar cables?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I went out to check just so i was not guessing, it says AWG #10 on the grounding wire, which leaves the breaker box and runs down through a conduit to a separate grounding copper rod pounded into the ground roughly 4-5 feet from the AC utilities electrical ground rod for the entire house. The only thing attached to the SPD ground wire is the SPD itself.
@@williamhustonrn6160 That is 10AWG I assume not 10mm, right? And, thank you!
Well done, you deserve it!
Thank you! Cheers!
When I was working in Roma, QLD on the coal seam gas fields, when installing steel cable trays, we had to run a 35mm earth wire between each cable tray length, that's was the code for the project.
Yeah, that might be different for these industrial installations. In certain circumstances a metal cable duct can be used as grounding as well. Cable tray is different though.
012722/0519h 🇺🇸 012722/2319h Brisbane 🇦🇺 Thank you, once again, Andy. There’s always frustration, anguish and dismay when we are on our own job. We yell, curse and complain…. These are normal day-to-day events. We all have done it, in one way or the other. But the eventuality is what we look forward… and remember we are with you, your techniques, teachings and practical approach towards final result, is always appreciated.Thank you for all the tough job, you are performing. At least, you are on the ground level, unlike the images of you perched precariously on top of the garage roof … so there’s some consolation… you are safe. Cheer up, please…73s…
Thank you Sree 🙏
0:56 AUD80 for a 50x50mmx4meter duct... I paid USD8 for a 40x40x4meter duct and it was immediately out of stock! Now I know why
Another great vid Andy. I have a 40’ Bus I’m putting up 2kw PV & a 48v 5Kw all in one with a Suntorque 48v 5Kw server rack battery. I was wondering with earthing I have a copper spike just out the front door I was going to use for the all in one system. Should I have a seperate earth spike 6-8mtrs away to earth the panels & Bus maybe separately? And hook up lightening protection to that earth, hmmm, no that would be a longer wire unless I swapped them. What would you suggest for this scenario? Should the all in one & panels need to be on seperate earthing spikes? Cheers
Thanks Evan. I have never heard about someone using a lightning protection system on a vehicle. It will act like a Faraday cage so should not be a problem. I would not earth it at all. You're not parking on top of a hill with literally no trees around you in the middle of a thunderstorm, do you?
I had a short discussion with my electrician about those SPDs last week, because here in Germany there are some rules/recommendations that did not seem logical to me. Ask yourself the question: What is it that you want to protect? Will a surge harm your MPPTs? Probably yes! Will a surge harm your combining box? Probably not! So you want the SPDs mounted as close as possible to your MPPTs. If a high voltage is induced (by lightning for example) it will affect not only the PV modules but cabling as well. So the SPD will clamp the surge inside the combining box but the cable from the combining box to the mppt acts as an inductor/capacitor as well and your mppt will be destroyed. So put the SPDs next to the cut-off breakers for example and connect the PE terminal as short as possible to a good ground. The Victron MPPTs also have a ground terminal on the left side... Connect this to the same grounding point as well. That way you should get a good protection. Regarding the nominal voltage of the SPDs: You could also use the 1000V ones... The 155V one can actually withstand a voltage of 155V, but are not clamping any voltage above that. If you are hit by a surge (with by nature is for a very short time) it will probably be in the kV range, so both SPDs will try to clamp. Got this info from a SPD manufacturer after asking why nearly all SPDs below 1000V are EOL... I am not an electrician but only interpreting all the infos by myself ;-)
Thanks for your comment. That is great information. The maximum continues operation voltage of these SPDs is 155V, so everything above gets capped. The same should be for the 1000V SPD. It allows surges up to 1kV in your system before it activates while the other one only allows 155V. That is my understanding.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I am pretty sure that this is not correct. Have a look at the datasheet... The 155V is the "Maximum continuous voltage DC". So below 155V the SPD will not be damaged and will never clamp anything. The "Voltage protection level (3kA 8/20μs)" is 370V. So the SPD will limit the surge to 370V under the tested conditions. Bigger surge -> higher voltage ;-) Hopefully the MPPT will withstand 370V for this short amount of time but you will never know before it happens. If you choose a higher voltage SPD, the protection level will be also higher (~3kV for 1000V SPDs). Chances for the MPPT to survive 370V are higher than 3kV, but I have seen 3.3V ICs releasing the magic smoke at 3.5V and I have seen the same type working at 5V (by mistake and probably not for a long time). I would choose the 155V SPD if it is affordable. But for me I choose the 1000V type because a 275V SPD (I use a 250V MPPT) is much more expensive. The insurance for the entire building (including fire, water, lightning damage) is okay with any SPD. And if a big surge hits me... those MPPTs are pretty cheap comparing to computers, kitchen appliances, heating equipment ;-) I worked for a surveyor some years ago and had several damages to due lightning on my desk... Small surge (no visible damage) can kill the modem, router and computer alltogether while a big surge leaves computer and router working, but modem kind of explodes... everything is possible. And induction also works pretty good directly on coils inside the mppt (and there are big ones)... so a near lightning strike can kill your mppt even if it is not connected at all.
@@texciler hmm, that was the only SPD I could choose which was in the range of my solar panel setup. If it let's 375V through as the max voltage, I'm sure the MPPS won't like that. But as you said, time will tell, or hopefully not and it just keeps working...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Whenever it come to lightning or surges, I think the goal is to keep damage low. If a huge surge gets on those cables and that SPD helps reducing the surge... Maybe you should be happy if only the MPPT dies but not the inverters and BMS "behind" the MPPTs. A 20kV surge (without SPD) hitting the MPPT would probably lead to at least a few hundred volts going out of the battery terminals 😞
Although you cannot use the frame for grounding it would be interesting to see the resistance reading between the earth from your supply and your earth rods. And compare it with the frame
The resistance or better impedance will change depending what current is going through the frame of the garage. I'm not sure if I can just use resistance tester for that. It's also hard to reach the top beam of the shed and the earth rod at the same time without using a cable in between. Would be an interesting experiment...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia When I was installing industrial Ground Grids in Alaska, for power generation sites, we tested them with a 'Megger' device that tested impedance and capacitance. It was different than an insulation tester. Metal buildings can generate quite a lot of static charge from wind and atmospheric charges as well. In the Arctic I've seen large Oil and Gas Production facilities develop huge static potential and circulating between metal buildings. Sometimes you can measure it with Volt/amp meter.
Talking about ripoffs mate. Went to get a replacement earth rod from AWM they tried to charge me $27.95, I said, " pull it back please to dear. Went around the corner got ot for 15 dollars. Luck I had got to other place before to get a earth kit for 16 dollars.
You are very right that you should not attach ground to the metal garage frames. But, not for the reason you suggest. There are actually multiple reasons including shock and fire safety as well as other things like RF ground loops. In almost all countries with recent electrical codes, you should terminate your ground in a single place inside. Exterior grounding, grounding for RF, grounding for marine environments, and grounding for expensive industrial equipment add some major complications but a good easy rule that usually won't steer you wrong is that all grounds should terminate at a single point in each subpanel, all subpanels should ground back to main panel ground and main panel ground should terminate at a single ground rod.
Thank you, great comment!
Thanks Andy, You make me laugh a lot, Thanks
The solarpanels on our van is also a danger for lightning?
Hello. I just wanted to ask something regarding neutral/ground bridging. I did that to an inverter of mine and it works nicely, theoritically having the RCD work when it needs to. But I was just wondering why did I have to find a solution for myself while the Chinese inverter didn't mention anything regarding neutral/ground bonding... I might at some point purchase a Victron hybrid inverter. So I was wondering if their manuals mention something regarding that or if there's an option in their menus or something. An opinion on the subject would be much appreciated. Thank you!
So, how do you protect your appliances in a situation where the lighting surge comes to your house through the public wires on the electric poles?
Andy the trend setter 👍👊 happy for you and your chanel mate well done. Not sure on the regs it's been a while ...... but lol imo the frame of the building is bonded to earth/ground (same principle as the battery shelves) the inverters, mppt bonded. (Bolts on the side if I recall) personally I would also bond the ally sheets they are mounted to also. As for the surge protection its a hard one due to the location 😕 personally I'd run a 16mm to the earth bar In the combiner box then earth the spd to that earth bar. Possibly also bond from that bus bar to the building structure. That's just my thoughts mate.
I mentioned an earth arrangement like they do on lightening conductors for buildings, this was taken out of context!! High voltage, high current for a short amount of time while the breakers etc isolate the system. Low impedance, low resistance make a enclosure to isolate it from touching etc and should be very legal Insulate a bar or make a compartment to separate it to form a barrier, install the bar with the insulated stand offs like in the battery shelf project down to a copper earth rod.. It's an idea for high voltage, high amps transfer to ground. If it's good enough for substations it's should be good enough here as well.
Thank you.
I have never heard you say “shit” and “ass” that many times in one sentence 🤣🤣.
I'm working on it! 😄
I found your channel a few videos back. I think I was looking for Victron video's 😃 I think the combination of a German in Australia is a nice one! I just hit the subscribe button! In May I will go on a 6 week trip from Amsterdam to the north cape in my 1965 Unimog! On the trip I will use 2 aolithium batteries and will try to go off-grid for 6 weeks with induction cooking 😀
Thank you very much, Victor. Welcome on board and thanks for joining! Good luck with your trip, sounds amazing.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia thanks! I bought a smartshunt today and a 12v 25A lithium charger 😄 and alot of electrical parts. So soon I will build out my off-grid system 😁
@@unimog404 Nice, that sounds really like fun!
Hi Andy, I have little experience with the type of installation you are considering, but it seems to me that to protect your system from induced load from indirect strikes you need to have SPDs on each end since an indirect strike is just as likely to enter the system from the grounded AC distribution panel itself, not just the PV on the roof. I understand Novaris is in the business of selling SPDs and their recommendations may be overkill, but from what I have read it looks like you should install an SPD in the main PV switch box above the charge controllers, and one in the AC distribution panel. In addition Novaris would have you install one at the combiner box and one between the AC distribution panel and an inverter however I have read in other places that if the distance between these locations is less tha 10m it is probably not necessary to install additional SPDs. I have not been able to find a reference to the specific length of the leads other than to keep them "as short as possible". As for the size of the ground wire Novaris literature states that 4mm wire is sufficient for installing SPDs for a PV system on a building without LPS protection, presumably in systems with multiple SPDs in locations that are much greater than 50cm from an earth ground. This information comes from the Novaris document "0015-D29V2-Protection-for-PV-Systems-Australia.pdf". Congrats on trending and keep up the great work, I really enjoy your videos and learn a lot watching you work through these issues as well as reading all the advice from your knowledgeable followers.
Thank you for your comment and thoughts. I read this as well in their documentation that they recommend SPDs installed at all locations where cables enter the building. 4mm2 cable is also the standard requirement for solar panel grounding here in Australia. I probably end up installing the SPDs near the solar isolator on the Power Wall and ground them with the 6mm2 cable to the main earth bar. There are so many conflicting information to be found, it's all very confusing.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia From the documentation it looks like keeping the AC runs between the inverters and your AC dist box as short as possible will allow the use of a single SPD at the AC dist box if you are going to protect the system at both ends. Maybe run the AC form the inverter straight down behind the panel to a dist box centered below the Phoenix inverter to keep cables short instead of snaking around and above the inverters. Would leave you room for a third inverter down the track.
Andy, earthing for a lightning strike is totally different to electrical earthing for electrical compliance At the voltage you get from a strike everything is connected. All the sheeting screws and bolts will make that frame an exceptionally good earth. I was once in a shed that got struck by lightning and never felt a thing. I believe you would be safe to make a good connection from your protection to the frame, you could connect the frame to the earth spike if you wanted but really at millions of volts lightning is going to find the ground regardless. Cheers Allan
Yeah my earthing arrangement comment seems to have been taken wrong.. A copper bar to earth rod within an enclosure would comply with most regulations in most countries. As long as it has separation and has some form of barrier to prevent direct access such as touching.. There would also be low impedance, resistance and would allow for high amps and current for a period while the protective devices do there job and isolate the panels.
No, Allan, that is not allowed in any circumstance. The garage is of course grounded but this does not mean it's a good ground point for electrical installation. All metal structures need to be grounded to have them on the same potential as we are. Ground is the lowest point. Otherwise your garage frame could be on a higher potential then you standing on the ground.
Did I miss the lipo with lifepo4 mixed batter test?
You are still missing the point, the SPD is to stop any voltage rise, more than likely from a nearby lightning strike, not a direct strike. If you don't put them as close as possible to the charge controllers you are trying to protect you are wasting your time installing them. The rise time of the induced voltage will propagate to the controllers before the SPD has a chance to ground it. It's why they keep talking about short cables!!!!
Great Info as usual 👍😊 I'm considering putting in SPD in my House DB, However I never really thought about a Direct Lightning hit (mainly Electrical surges thus SPD Installation) Will you install a Lightning Protection System from a Direct Lightning Strike ?? I think it would make an interesting Video. I live in the Country NSW (on a hill - 720m Above Sea Level) close to Overhead Power Lines, I may consider doing this myself 🤔
No, I don't install an LPS on my garage or house. This would be far beyond a DIY project anyways. The main reason was to protect the MPPTs from over voltage.
Hey! Andy will you like to work on Auto Sun tracking system??? It will help for our future projects
Probably not. It won't help me as I have a stationary setup. I don't think they are worth the effort. Instead just over dimension your system to compensate for loses you may have during the day.
I agree, its good to bond to the metalwork but not rely on continuity as you say. Should run a heavy gauge c.p.c to the main earthing terminal of the building or earth rods suitably installed ...and ensure the earth loop impedance test results are appropriate for local regulations.
Well, you’re *TECHNICALLY* right. An SPD won’t protect against a direct lightning strike *ON YOUR BUILDING.* But it will (help) protect against lightning that might come in off of the grid. (Or are you *TOTALLY* off-grid?) OTOH, the LPS won’t protect against lightning-induced surge voltages coming in on your wiring, either. As for a ground, is that wiring you showed encased inside a conduit? If so, it might/should be grounded. You might want to take a multimeter and check. But ... if your wiring is *NOT* referenced to ground, then perhaps only _line-to-line_ and _line __-to-neutral-_- surges need be considered -- as long as none of your electrical loads is grounded.
I did not see where you placed the SPD: Is it between Solar Panel and Fuse/CB, or between Fuse/CB and SCC? 4:58 this is AC SPD and it is placed on the LOAD side of the CB. I sure would like to know the definitive way to place them for solar panels.
Trend-setter-trend 😀
It would be good to see you explore AS5139 - and in particular earth leakage detection which is now a requirement.
I'll get there.... This is about the SPDs first...
Off Grid Garage Uncensored edition
I pixeled the bad parts out 😄
Question what does the numbers mean on the victron controller lol put a lightning rod on roof use it like a flag holder lol then run it to a earthrod
When it comes to grounding and bonding different countries typical electrical systems and building methods (and materials) are very different so there are very different standards across the world. However an SPD must always be wired across the three conductors of the equipment it is protecting, ideally as close to it as practical.
Thank you.
Bonjour Andy, Merci pour tes tutos.... pour les colles résiduelles, souvent en appliquant du WD40 puis essuyer avec un torchon.... on se fatigue moins et ca peut faire des "miracles"😉.... Salutations de la Suisse ...⛷ - Olivier Berthoud....
Thanks, I would not use WD40 for the cables, that is very messy. A water based lubricant is the way as it dissolves after a while
Hi Andy, I think they meant the SPD should be as close as possible to the device it is protecting. It should be shunting the surge with reference to the same ground point as the device, so they must have meant that the device is protected from that point. Not only the ground cable, the others cables should also be as short as possible wrt the device. The remaining part of the ground cable going from the SPD may not matter. Voltage is a reference to a point, I think that's why airplanes are immune to lightning while in air.
Oh and that lightning example, I didn't mean that SPD is for lightning protection, obviously we need lightning arresters and a separate ground for those, preferably far away from the house/garage ground.
Try use a little bit of cooking oil on a small section of adhesive/glue area, see how you like the effect or not. And , of course, you have to wash of the oil later.
Use an ohm meter to see how good the garage metal is connected to each other. If it is open, then definitely not a good ground, but if there are 0 ohms, might work. You could also drill and tap some grounding screws and force a connection between each metal segment so you will definitely know it is all grounded.
It's not allowed to use metal building bonding as ground connection as this could change over time due to corrosion. You always need a dedicated ground wire for that sort of connection.
You just need the SPD ground connection to be connected to the lowest resistance to ground which you can achieve with you electrical system. run a 16mm cable ( 25 if its more than 5 meters or so ) from the MET up to the SPD. Bond the garage just before you enter the combiner box to make sure there is as little difference in resistance ( therefore little potential difference/voltage) at that point in the garage as possible. It would be good to know what type of earthing system you have in your garage and in your house. It would be even better to know what the loop resistance of your earth conductor is. You can do this with an Earth Fault Loop Impedance tester.
Thank you. They have measured the ground loop resistance recently when they replaced some cabling at the overhead lines down the road but just said it's OK. We have the Tn_c_s network here so TN-C until the customers meter box and from there it's a TN-S net. I have an earth stake outside the garage as well as one near the house (for the subpanel there). That garage frame is grounded at this point.
@@OffGridGarageAustraliaGreat! This is a very typical earthing arrangement and it has been done exactly right. If they said the earth was okay it means it was under the maximum impedance allowed for a TN-C-S system which is 0.35Ohms. I wouldn't have a bad conscience for you to simply run an earth cable from your MET up to the SPD and bonding the steel locally while you're up there too. 16mm or 25mm is great. 16mm has a resistance of around 1.15mOhm per meter. @ 20*C 25mm has a resistance of around 0.727mOhm per meter. @ 20*C Just verify the earthing connection from the garage to the rod is healthy. If you have a Low Ohm meter, its always nice to check connections are good. If you don't have one then just google “4 wire resistance measurement”.
Maybe the sticking cable duct was sitting there longer than the slotted one... And would have been fine some years ago?
It seems brand new, no dust, no marks...
Hörnerwhisky - yes!!
💪
Do not confuse the two different grounding systems. #1 Protection grounding that aims to protect persons from hazarous electrical shocks. This grounding is very well defined. In case of malfunction it should be capable to activate the corresponding circuit breaker and shall protect a person from a voltage higher than about 42 Volt. This function does not require caring for impedance and not for fast voltage spikes but just for mains frequency and bare resistance. Regulations shall be obeyed. #2 A very different pet is surge protection. Very fast spikes can damage your equipment instantly. Therefore a major concern is the inductive imedance of your grounding. Protective ground dos not specify such requirements. Voltage spikes behave like water - they travel along lowest (inductive) effort. Good practice is NOT to use the protective ground as it is not designed for this application (even if it is not prohibited by regulations). It might fit but you cannot count on this property. Therefore surge protection will be installed separately with 4 sqmm up to 16 sqmm and shall not be combined or confused with protective grond (#1) Having this in mind it will very well be possible to use the frames of your shed as it is zink plated and performs along low impedance as it offers plenty of surface. In order to have this property continuously it is necessary to bridge any gap or unsecure contact with a fat cable. (You might have observed the briging in server cabinets between rack, cabinet and doors). Alternatively you can draw a fat ground cable along the framing and tap contact points at every joint in your framing. Such installation will perform along much lower impedance than your fat solar cables. Spikes will love to travel this easy road. And if you want to do a minor extra effort: Just wind the solar cables in parallel 2 or 3 windings around the frame or another metal/iron bar. It will not harm your DC performanceat all but is a terrific obstacle for fast voltage spikes. #3 Very similar requirements apply to lighning protection. Such installations will be perfomed cmpletely outside the building in order to keep the disturbance outside all the way. And even here sharp bends shall be omitted as they perfom like an inductance. We had here a case some years ago where a lighning strike refused to travel the path provided but because of a sharp bend it jumped through the wall and continued its jouney along the radiator and its plumbing. I mention this just to illustrate how minute differneces of imedance can cause drastic effects. Andy, try to feel yourself how spikes feel while traveling along a "wire" taking in account any minute inductance. Try to be lazy (obviously not a gift of yours :-) ) and decide if you want to travel along the solar wires being wound around iron alternatively along a well connected frame of your garage. Keep in mind: no regulations from #1 apply here.
Very interesting, thanks Johannes!
Midnite Solar sells amazing lighting arrestors. Look at their videos to see how they tested them along with a competitor lighting arrestors.
Thanks again Andy for the great info. SPD,SPD,SPD,SPD..... and all my mind was hearing was STD,STD, STD... Love your ranting: "Worst Shit ever !"
As i said in the last video, i would run your own earthing wire using the apropriate size and type of cable, as if it was used for a normal consumer unit for mains power in a house and run it within a seperate small 16mm conduit outside to an earth rod.
Thanks James!
Oh my gosh. KZhead has lost it. I had a post deleted that had no links. I'm done. Sorry Andy, I can't even interact with you in comments.
This one came through. The forums are full of complaints about this. It's unpredictable when comments get deleted...
Turn the light toward the ceiling
Yes, but the video would have been less funny 😉
Trendy Andy 👍😂😁
In the USA: NEC 250.68(C) Grounding Electrode Conductor Connections.
Andy, I've always said you were EXACTLY like pewdiepie. KZhead is now finally just catching up to that fact.
Hahaha, I wish I was. Could just live of the millions I make on KZhead.
Someone should fire the R&D department rep who was responsible For the adhesives/film choice of this conduit. 😜
old stock
You can buy a A/C & D/C Lightning Device From Midnite Solar. That is What I Use Andy! Just So You Know.
I've seen them, thank you.
Andy what not ask Victron for advise?
They don't do lightning protection and would advice to ask an electrician.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia but I thought you were doing Surge protection, maybe they can help with the questions about the grounding?
Hi trendy Andy, I hope Haymans watch your video . André
First time and last time for me. Next time I do a trip to Brisbane and save some money (not time though).
Back to the basic…where does your anticipated surge come from?? The solar array?? I do not think so.
Novaris recommends SPDs on all incoming cable entries into the building. There was a graphic in the video at 4:18 where you can see that surges can come from wither, your incoming AC cables as well as from your solar panels.
Where did you buy the ****, not sure everyone got it
Haymans Electrical
You will have to make a big led sign and hook it up behind you live with your follower number.
One of these projects, ey...
Perfect person to be a trend, better get your printer running so you can update your followers sign
Why do we need to ground our solar systems, what are we protecting it from?
lighting, emp, solar flair, and broken inverter backfeed
All metal object need to be connected to the same potential to make it save for us. Ground is the lowest we have.
I'm glad you stopped the idea of using a building frame for grounding, especially for surge protection. There are just too many variables for that to be a proper grounding system.
I never had this idea ever! I always said we cannot do that but many others suggested it as a solution hence I elaborated on this topic again.
Today it was a short video, but it was still very sh*tty f**kin' funny ...
Thumbs up!
What about lightning arrestors
Put a 6-ft ground wire in the ground copper then run a copper line to your ground
I think it is better to use vinegar to clean of the sticky parts...
because?
WD-40 works for a bunch of different glues from stickers and protective films. Either it works in less than 1 second, or it doesn't work at all, just don't forget it is flammable.
I'll try it on the other conduit I have. Thanks.
@@OffGridGarageAustralian the epilogue for this video, it looks like you were using a bottle labeled “mineral turpentine”. This is also known in other countries by various names: White spirits (AU, UK and Ireland), mineral spirits (US, Canada), also known as mineral turpentine (AU/NZ), turpentine substitute, and petroleum spirits. It’s generally a great choice for solvent to clean sticky adhesives, oil-based paints and polyurethane wood finishes and topcoats. In the US, there is a smaller bottle of similar petroleum-based distillates called “goo gone”, which is also used for the same purposes, although it’s sold in a much smaller bottle and has an orange scent. For larger projects, the plain mineral spirits are a better choice because they are less expensive, and come in larger sizes. Best to use gloves however when working with any chemicals! Also, be sure to collect any used mineral spirits in a waste container such as a glass jar or bottle. These petroleum distillates are toxic to the environment and must be disposed of properly. Depending on the project, they can often be reused a few times. (For example, when used to clean brushes to remove with clear-coat oil-based polyurethane wood finish, the excess mineral spirits can be put into a container and left to settle for a few hours. Later, the polyurethane will settle out near the bottom, and you can pour off the top layer of mineral spirits into another container to reuse again.) One last safety note: Mineral Spirits have a low ignition temperature, and soaked rags have been known to spontaneously combust when in hot weather or environments! So, be sure to store used rags safely in a non-flammable trash bin or container. Cheers!
Andy have you measured the earth on the solar rail mate? Plus the way they attach them is a bit of a joke.
No, haven't measured it. What do you mean?
That sticky duct is not new. Unused, perhaps, but not new. I've had the same problem with plastic sheet that's been around for too long before the protective film was pulled of. Referred to as NOS, or new old stock, it should have need deeply discounted. No contractor would put up with that kind of sh[t on a job.
Yeah, it looked very new, no dust, no marks... That's what I thought as well, the electrician get's the 💩 when installing such a duct and need to clean it afterwards. First and last time Haymans Electrical for me...
Surge protection never saved us from 3 ligthnings :( Actually caused a fire one time. A lightning never hit your garage. Because you are surrounded by trees. :) Good :) *I think current protection devices are designed for standard installations. Standart home installation transmits electricity from the ground floor to the upper floor. It is difficult to use surge protection for solar DC or impractical for electricity going down from the upper floor. In fact, it may not work because of resistance values of live and ground cables. OR You must have a super low ressistant wire for grounding. *(I'm not an electric engineer) But, there is a device for this type of test. (but, It is simply so expensive :()
Thanks, Ren Great thoughts.
We all watch your ideas and nothing is going to stop a direct lightning strike those are made in case lightning strikes close around not direct hit will destroy everything
Yep, I agree...
the liter fuel will take it off and dry rag, takes time too
You should have 1 ground for your solar system. 1 ground for the metal structure of the solar. 1 ground for your metal building structure. And 1 last ground for your electrical plugs and so on. ALL INDEPENDENT from each other. 4 different metal bars into the ground. That's how it should be.... and it's not so expensive, but very much appropriate. And all with the necessary protections, of course. But grounded independently.
Hmmm, I never heard about this before. I have only one rod so far for the building and electrical bonding. Same at the house, there is just one main point of grounding.
Nice video, but the paper number is still out of date 🙈
🤷♂️🤦
Ok get a piece of paper write GROUND on it and tape your wire to it. How do you think your solar panels are going to surge the voltage in the first place? Possibly a spacecraft with a beam of infrared light? Just asking. A voltage spike would be between positive and negative only anyways unless a meteor or hail storm, lightning, attacks them. Hey this is suppose to be fun let's have a beer.
Thanks Dave. Novaris recommends SPDs on all cable entry points of the building. There is also lightning wich can occur from cloud to cloud which can have an impact on solar installations. Yeah, let's have a beer first! 🍺
i am sorry you got old stock and the glue is breaking down not fun to clean :(
Looked brand new. no dust, no scratches...
0:26... That's not your hand... it's your glove.
Other than a lightning strike nearby, how could you possibly get a surge from solar panels???? An atomic atmospheric blast maybe? I don't think anyone will care about their charge controllers if that happens.... Lol
There are atmospheric activities where lightning can travel from one cloud to another and solar panels could act like big antennas for that.
Nothing will 100% stop the lightning strike The bottom line: The electricity in a lightning bolt is much too powerful to be 100% stopped by any type of system.
i would have thought that every metal building should be grounded ,that would only make sense ?
they are but not for elect
@@martehoudesheldt5885 i understand it is for what reason then ?
It is for lightining
All metal parts need to be on the same potential to make it safe for us. Otherwise the garage could on a higher potential as you standing on the ground. You touch the wall and get a little zap.
Based on the title I thought your garage got hit by lightning.
Ah, nah, thankfully not.
Alcohol and most plastics do not mix, the plastic will craze after some time and fall apart.
OK, so make your comment more positive and provide a better solution. We're all here to learn.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Some plastics are not compatible with alcohol and will cause it to fall apart at a later time test a small area first if it causes it to cloud up do not use it on all the pieces. Not all plastics have a problem.
@@Labeeman Looks perfectly fine so far since I did it a few days ago....
But American…buy right…. Be happy - don’t worry…
Really like Angry Andy! Very entertaining, get more stupid shit products haha
Your language Andy ??? More editing needed. Pics r good though. 😩
I had a 💩day!
wow. you're touchy. i thought it was funny as hell!
@@dobrzpe It was a funny 💩 day!