How I recently pointed my newly laid patio, what went wrong, and lots of tips for your new or repointed patio to guarantee a really good long lasting result.
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0:00 Introduction
0:36 Background
2:48 Patio Bedding Layer
4:02 Patio Pattern
4:54 Paving up to House
6:24 The Big Mistake
7:44 Today's Toolkit
8:02 Site Prepwork
9:14 Filling the Joints
13:12 Cleaning the Surface
13:43 After Treatment
14:06 The Problems
15:26 Other Products
17:57 Conclusions
19:14 Subscribe to Me!
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#patio #grouting #DIY
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I am also full-time renovating my house and I have two thoughts: 1. it's really hard work when you are jack of all trades and 2. you poor bugger, making these videos and having every man and his dog taking a pop at you, no matter how well intentioned. Keep up the good work, both physical and visual - love your channel.
Here here!
Good job Charlie. That looks like an utter faf of a job ….I keep putting it off
Keep us posted on the cement residue remover and its effectiveness on your patio.
Thanks Paul. Really appreciate that. The criticism comes with the territory but it can be tough when you're not in the right mindset to take it. If what I'm doing is wrong it's right to mention it - but on platforms like Facebook and TikTok I just get attacked regardless. 😩🤦
Will do. Consensus in the comments seems to be that these resin based grouts aren't great. But we'll see and there will be an update vid in the spring.
Great info as usual. I love the amount of detail you go in to. But by far the best bit is that you explore the mistakes and how to avoid them.
Thanks George. Problem is I haven't really avoided them because what I've learnt particularly from the comments is these resin mortars are rubbish and I should have used good old days and cement or something like Flowpoint.
In 1980 as a kid we moved on to a new housing estate, the place was a sea of paving, I remember watching these 2 old boys laying the slabs and they would always mix a bit of sand and cement together and brush in the joints. They would sweep it clean immaculately and then lightly water like a mist, 43 years later the slabs are still very good, the whole estate still looks very smart, sometimes the old methods just work.
Yep, I agree Sean. Wish I had done it this way now. 👊
Love your channel, Charlie. You have meticulously explained everything.
Laying sandstone paving should only be done with a full wet bed of Mortar at a ratio of 5.1 sand and cement and the slabs should be primed individually before laying using a slurry primer to aid with adhesion and to prevent salt blooms, if not they will come unstuck and white marks will start showing on the surface of the patio (salt) I used normal cement pointing on mine and finished with a stone sealer which makes it easier to wash off in spring as nothing sticks👍
Yep I agree with this. If I had my time again I'd have done that and piped it into the joint with a mortar gun. 😩
As a DIYer I've used easyjoint for all the paving I've done during our renovation - like you, Indian Sandstone (mine doesn't have any cross joints 😉). Found it really easy to use, give the paving a good hose down, chuck the tub full on the paving and brush it around with the hose on it. This washes it in to the joints (if as per the instruction, the joints are free-draining), so no need to spend ages on your hands and knees troweling it. Finally brush it off with a final hosing (to get rid of the oily residue) and it's done. Few days later it's set solid and has been great for 2 years - looks like the day I laid it. It stands up to pressure washing with no problems. Also a bonus, with any left overs, put it back in the tub and fill it with water - I stored some like this for 10 months before using it on a small bit of paving and it worked just as well as when the tub was fresh.
Nice work, thanks for sharing 👊
I used a resin product on my 38m sq Indian sandstone patio and found it easy and absolutely no issues 3 years later, maybe you had a faulty batch. This year I used a weak mix of sodium hypochlorite to remove any black spots and now it looks like it’s just been laid. I have recommended the joint compound to family and friends and they have had a good experience with it too.
When I did my patio 15 years ago, I pointed it by just brushing neat cement power into the dry cracks on a completely dry day with no rain in the forecast for several days afterwards, also compacting it down. The cement is quite capable of drawing moisture in from the air to set in time for the next rain. However, I was able to do this because I didn't require my joints to be permeable, and my slabs were concrete so they were already the colour they would be stained by it and also probably adhered to the cement better than natural stone would. Worked well.
Excellent video Charlie. When my patio was laid I did the labouring for my builder to keep the project cost and learned loads in the process. Same as you Indian sandstone. The general approach was to joint the area that was laid the day before a bucket of compound at a time like you. I think the fact my builder was anticipating having to joint when he laid the stones meant there were fewer voids. He recommended the EASYjoint product which has held-up really well - a few areas that I did myself have needed doing again as I've since realised that I hadn't packed the compound in sufficiently. Having re-laid several slabs around some changes I've found this stuff really simple to use.
Thanks Karl. Glad you got on ok with EasyJoint as the comments are unanimously that these resin mortars are rubbish and I should have used something like Flowpoint or GftK VDW 850. 👊
Hey Charlie, coincidentally ive just pointed my new patio slabs. Done my homework and settled on Joint it Simple. I didn't brush it in. I used some old laminate flooring cut into pieces (8mm laminate, 10mm joints). Just kept pushing it in and tamping till completely full then finished off with a jointer. Worked a treat. Compacted solid! Obviously time will tell but I'm quietly confident 👍🏻
I had my patio and front garden laid with the same indian sandstone as you have used, back in February and a couple of the slabs have since begun to move. They had not properly stuck to the bed of mortar. All I could do was to refix them with some CT1 which has worked really well, but I now need to patch the grouting. This video has been really useful as my builders only swept the equivalent of your compound into the joints and did so dry. It too is failing in places. Thanks for your advice and explanation of how to use it correctly. 👍 😊
You're welcome Andrew. Sorry to hear that. It's such a difficult one this and I'm actually wishing I'd used sand and cement for the pointing now. Hey ho!
@@CharlieDIYte Furthermore, my builders laid the slabs with both crossroads and T junctions in the pointing. There is no way to avoid that.
I have just removed all the old joint fix that a previous owner had put down and it was full off green moss so i have put down my own 4 sharp sand to 1 cement semi dry mix with added cheap table salt which always does a good job at a fraction of the price any driveway with blocks etc brush some table salt in it dries anything that's trying to grow hence a good clean drive
First of all, I love the results, nice tiles indeed, even a bit posh. Like you, I do a lot of DIY and I even like it when you see things getting better looking. Now there are a couple of things I don't do, cause I miss the experience and that is plastering and grouting (I do some of it when small parts come off) I leave that to the experts cause they do it in half the time with a smile on their face whereas I ... well you can fill it in for yourself. But at the end you manage to make it look great and did it yourself. Superb And thanks for sharing the knowledge how, not to, and, how to, do it properly.
Well I've learnt a lot from this 😩 If I had my time again I'd have done it properly with sand and cement with waterproof admix plasticiser, piped through a mortar gun. The area I had to fix is already going black. I tried to pressure wash it yesterday and it looks really pitted now. The area I did from scratch looks fine but you look closely and the granular structure is far too loose - it looks like sand glued together. I've had some good suggestions for other products in the Comments - Flowpoint is what the pros use apparently, and GftK VDW 850 2 part is meant to be bullet proof but expensive. 👊
Hi Charlie, great vid. Just in time for me. The wife wants our Indian sandstone repointing and said I'd do it next year. Really torn on what product to use so this is helpful. Sealing this product also helps keep the moss and such like at bay because otherwise it becomes horrendously slippy. Keep it up 👍
Thanks mate. Read the comments below this vid before you buy. Consensus seems to be that the resin grouts aren't great and products like Flowpoint, GFTK VDW 850 Plus (very expensive but bomb proof apparently) or even just sand and cement are better but it depends on the nature of the repair and how much of the original you're removing I guess.
Well done Charlie. Your Patio looks great. I did a 20 square metre slate patio 5 years ago. As it was on the north side of the house I knew I'd want to be pressure washing it often to stop it getting green and slippery so i opted for a 2 part epoxy jointing mortar call GftK vdw850+. You mix it with a paddle mixer and squeegee it in with lots of water. Brush clean after it starts to harden. It took me about 1 hour to joint and clean the 20 square meters and is bomb proof. Expensive but i would definitely recommend it. Thanks for the video's.
Thanks so much for that. Looks seriously good that stuff, if 3 times the price albeit for a larger tub - but as you say, if it's bomb proof it's worth paying the extra. 👊👌
Hey Charlie, yard & patio are looking great! Nice job on the video and tips.😊
Thanks mate 👊
Really interesting and informative. Not sure my DIY skills would be sufficient for a project like this but maybe one day when I pluck up the courage I might give it a go.
Thanks. 👊 The pointing is straight forward enough. Laying a patio is a bit trickier though.
Great job Charlie !!!
Thanks Michael. 👊
Great and very useful video Charlie, as they all are 🙂 nice patio by the way.
Thanks Phil 👊
Been through this a number of times before so when we went for grey granite for our paving a few years back I had to spend the entire weekend unpacking 11 x 9sq patio packs and treating each slap face with Lithofin MN Stain-Stop. Can recommend this product as one of the best sealers I have ever used for outdoor natural paving. We then used a product called GFTK 815 to grout the 5mm spacing on the patio. The sealer certainly helped the clean-up and stopped the resin staining on the face of the granite tiles. I had 110m Sq to grout and with a friend on the hose we completed it over a weekend. I also make sure we went around and compressed it into the joints. Would recommend looking at GFTK products - very good but not cheap.
Yes this was recommended to me yesterday, as was Flowpoint. Yes if I had my time again I'd have done it properly with sand and cement with waterproof admix plasticiser, piped through a mortar gun. The area I had to fix is already going black. I tried to pressure wash it yesterday and it looks really pitted now. The area I did from scratch looks fine but you look closely and the granular structure is far too loose - it looks like sand glued together. I've had some good suggestions for other products in the Comments - Flowpoint is what the pros use apparently, and what you used - except it was GftK VDW 850 that I was recommended. 👊
The GFTK product I used was 815 which I think is finer so good for 5mm joints. It was a two part product that needed mixing in the bucket with a drill whisk and then applying with a giant rubber squeegee into the joints while the paving was wet. The resin residue was still a pain on some of the paving even when the granite had been sealed with Stain-Stop.
Thanks for taking the time to share your experience here Charlie, I appreciate how much effort you put into researching these products and report on how it's gone for you. I find the amount of instructions with so many products these days a real turn-off and prefer to keep things simple as a result, I didn't even know these products existed. Being a traditionalist with tight pockets, I've always just used hand mixed mortar for this purpose and can't see that changing ! Patio and garden look great by the way, a lot of work but it will be worth it in the end, take care mate and keep up the good work !
Thanks Andy, I really appreciate that. In hindsight Is have been much better using sand and cement with a nice waterproof Admix. This stuff is failing already on that upper patio today the builders botched.
Useful and timely video, thanks. I just laid one level of my indian sandstone patio at home and will be going in with the Sika Fastfix jointing compound next week. Used 4:1 sharp sand & cement mortar and bedded the slabs onto a flat mortar bed without air gaps (always thought mortar mix strength should match substrate). Also used a priming slurry on the underside of the slabs. The patio has a decent fall and the gaps to be filled with sika compound are standard depths so not anticipating issues with drainage as hoping compound will aid flow of water to drainage on low side of patio. Some interesting points to consider with the methods for laying a patio - some the technical guidance seems to be somewhat contradictory!
Thanks for that Ben. Sounds like you've done a good job there. Yes I was impressed with that Sika. I like everything Sika do. Good luck with the pointing. 👌
I've seen loads of resin type jointed patio's, unfortunately none of them installed to the manufacturers requirements, any thing from 2mm deep and 1mm wide !!! As the products are also permeable but mainly laid on uneven (puddling) full concrete bases, moss is a great problem. I think good old sand n cement is the best value for money and a lot more robust. A great vid covering a lot of key points 😊
😅😊Great videos .We are paving contractors and would never use any of the products featured for pointing. We use Nexus v75 or Gftk resins which are more expensive but have a huge labour saving.
Got my garden done on the cheap the patio slaps weren’t put on a bed of sand and cement the person just dot and dabed the slabs and filled the grout in with a jointing compound hey presto 1yr later it crumbled away fell in/down the joint I’ve had scrape out all the joints need to brush in a sand and cemant mixture wet it and grout the thing again so this vid has helped a lot cheers
Sorry to hear that. Hope you get it sorted 🤞👊
Brilliant video. Thank you.
You're welcome. Thanks 🙏
Salute to Charlie for making this video! Appreciate you sharing the lessons learned for all DYIers 🫡
Thanks, I appreciate that. I think if I had my time again I'd have done it properly with sand and cement as the grout on that raised patio area the builders botched is already crumbling in places. Apparently the product to use of you do want to use easy mix is Flowpoint. 👊
Hey Charlie. The patio is looking great. You did really well with pushing through on what is a really tedious job from my experience. You didn’t mention the cost of those tubs though. From my experience they’re very expensive and as you found, quite faffy. I echo others suggestions for a dryish cement sand mix. Much more economical and straightforward IMO. The house build and general improvements will look great when complete. 👍🏼
Thanks Paul - good to great from you. I did mention the cost in the pop up on screen. It's £30-£40 a tub depending on where you get it from. It is very faffy to apply though. 👊
We got our patio put down a few years ago and I did the pointing. I did a terrible job and watching this video has made me realise why. The patio was also a bit of a bodge job too and I've got lots of wobbly slabs, so it's another big project (for me) to sort those wobbles out and repoint the whole lot. Thanks to your video though, I should do a much better job this time.
Well, I haven't got it right either. Yes if I had my time again I'd have done it properly with sand and cement with waterproof admix plasticiser, piped through a mortar gun. The area I had to fix is already going black. I tried to pressure wash it yesterday and it looks really pitted now. The area I did from scratch looks fine but you look closely and the granular structure is far too loose - it looks like sand glued together. I've had some good suggestions for other products in the Comments - Flowpoint is what the pros use apparently, and GftK VDW 850 2 part is meant to be bullet proof but expensive. 👊
I've felt the pain of patio sealing and jointing and would say your dedication and commitment to detail has been acknowledged. Video saved for reference for next time.
Thanks mate. If I had my time again I'd have piped sand and cement in with a mortar gun. Much more durable and long lasting.
I did a few on a different part of my garden without the slurry on the back and a few if them came loose, it's in winter when they start to loosen, the frost gets under and works them loose, also the salt came through! The ones with the slurry are still tightly down, also no salt marks. The lurry seals the back of the slab, with stone being porous stopped the salt staining and also bonds the slabs tightly to the bedding mix👍
Yep, a few of you have mentioned the slurry. When you have builders doing this stuff you just trust they know what they're doing. Oh well, fingers crossed!
Charlie, I feel your pain. I used the Sika product this summer to re-point a long-standing patio where the pointing had broken up over the last 15 years or so. I humbly claim I had an even more difficult job because the slabs were not perfectly strait with even gaps. It wasn't exactly crazy paving but it was a pattern with uneven rough edges that meant no straight lines and pressing down the product was a nightmare where the gaps differed even along individual slabs. Anyway, I suffered precisely the problem you did in ending up with some areas where despite thoroughly compacting, there was clearly standing water in the void. Your video brought back all the memories as I saw some areas of your paving just peeling back without any effort whatsoever. I've been able to correct some of these already but as I'm sure you realise, these spots don't all become evident immediately. I have one more bag of the Sika mix so that'll go down to fix the obvious places where it's all rucked up. I'm sure you've discovered just how long this job takes since you have to press down the product so carefully and evenly to ensure an even and perfect finish. It's not cheap stuff so it's all the more important that it works as it should but I guess we all learn don't we? The house looks great and you're making some terrific changes to it that will definitely give you an even more fantastic family home once it's all done. Best of luck.
Thanks so much for the comment - I appreciate the kind words about the house. There's a lot to do but it'll be nice when it's done. It's really interesting you had the same problem with the Sika - sorry to hear that. The comments seem to be suggesting that these resin based products aren't great and a sand and cement mix or something like Flowpoint is better. We'll see how it weathers over the winter. 😬 👊
Great job and video Charlie. I pointed mine 8 years ago and was recommended to use a sharp sand mix. Now it needs redoing due to some of it breaking down. Most is OK so I guess it must be poor mixing.
Thanks Mark. Well, I can guarantee you mine won't last 8 years. Possibly the mix or the way it was compacted.
Looks a lovely job. FYI, the mottled staining from where the pointing was left on the surface will disappear. We had the same issue and after a few weeks of sunshine it’ll be gone. The other option if it’s really bad is just to go over it with some rough sandpaper which will soften the appearance and clear the worst of it.
Thanks - that's a relief! 😉
@@CharlieDIYte no problem, also I recall reading that the staining is just linseed oil, which is why the advice is to keep the surface wet so it doesn’t absorb into the stone. The idea about sealing is interesting - it makes sense from the pointing perspective, however I have read that newly laid stone shouldn’t be sealed for at least a few months to allow any efflorescence to be removed before sealing. It’s just one big minefield for us DIY’ers!
Charlie, you unquestionably put more effort and quality into jointing compound application than anyone I know. I stopped using that stuff a long time ago as they just don't last. Sand and cement, believe it or not washes away with a sponge quite tmeasily if you wash it twice, or and I seem to remember you using one, a mortar gun, they work brilliantly... And a rub of a sponge... The other thing is that any colour in mortar or jointing on a horizontal surface is useless as dust and algae just turn them grey... Finally, jointing compounds are only porous for a very short time as dust clogs them up very quickly... Contractors only love these resin based compounds as they are very quick. Since you took extra time at application, I will be very interested to see your follow up,I genuinely hope it stays in the joints🤞
Thanks David. I agree 😩 Yes if I had my time again I'd have done it properly with sand and cement with waterproof admix plasticiser, piped through a mortar gun. The area I had to fix is already going black. I tried to pressure wash it yesterday and it looks really pitted now. The area I did from scratch looks fine but you look closely and the granular structure is far too loose - it looks like sand glued together. I've had some good suggestions for other products in the Comments - Flowpoint is what the pros use apparently, and GftK VDW 850 2 part is meant to be bullet proof but being two part must be a pain to apply. 👊
Thanks for your reply Charlie, I didn't get a notification from KZhead of it so only went back to look now. Flow point is excellent but you really have to be fast in the clean off or you'll never get it off. Wash too soon and it washes out of the joints too. It's a bit of a learning process. Further to this you need somewhere to wash it into and with aco drains near by and shores about too you really need to be careful where you wash off... Sand and cement as you suggest in your video short is the best job I think and surprisingly to most, a sponge off a couple of times and it's no big deal to remove either.
Thanks for posting this video. My patio was laid by a "professional". They used EasyJoint - so, so many buckets of it - and brushed it in having absolutely drenched the patio. He went round compacting it with a kitchen spoon - I kid you not. I thought nothing of it as the finished job looked lovely. Sadly a couple of years later the jointing started coming away and now, about 5 years later, we're faced with repointing all of it. Sadly some of the stone have lifted as a result as well. Mind you, I'm not convinced he used the porous bedding you mentioned. Shame really - looked so nice when it was new. Incidentally, make sure the gaps between the slabs don't have bits of the underlying base popping up too far - the jointing stuff needs a certain depth to allow it to stay in there.
Thanks and sorry to hear about your situation. Yes if I had my time again I'd have done it with sand and cement and a bit of waterproof admix. Would last SO MUCH LONGER.
I use a wet vac to vacuum out the standing water in the joints as I normally jet wash before I grout. I used to tip dry powder in it when it rain grouting with a slurry but one day it popped into My head wet vac! He should have used a patio stain cleaner I use. It’s like acid but safe for stone. I also learned it’s easier to wipe each stone down with a clean sponge than clean with acid afterwards.
Yep, good work. If he had wiped with a sponge I wouldn't have any staining.
Raked out the Sika mortar off our patio. lasted 5 years and fell apart despite using their recommended sealer. Overpriced garbage. Used the more traditional sand and cement mix after raking the Sika out this year. Came out with a pointing trowel and wet and dry vac, had the texture of damp sharp sand.
I'm going to have to do the same 😩 Yes if I had my time again I'd have done it properly with sand and cement with waterproof admix plasticiser, piped through a mortar gun. The area I had to fix is already going black. I tried to pressure wash it yesterday and it looks really pitted now. The area I did from scratch looks fine but you look closely and the granular structure is far too loose - it looks like sand glued together. I've had some good suggestions for other products in the Comments - Flowpoint is what the pros use apparently, and GftK VDW 850 2 part is meant to be bullet proof but being two part must be a pain to apply. 👊
Perfect(ly terrible) timing! Just did this myself 2 weeks ago! Exact same Indian Raj Green sandstone. From my research, I went with a 5:1 mortar mix, with sharp NOT building sand. (though I did have a few bags of spare building sand that I mixed in along the way) Also used a priming slurry on the underside of the slabs (SikaBond SBR+ mixed 1:2 with cement) to prevent popping, and staining of the sandstone from the cementitious mortar. Joints were filled with Sika Fast Fix (Dark Buff). Some of the joints weren't particularly deep (I was over generous with my mortar bed!), so in places I used an angle grinder on the mortar bed to get closer to the 20mm minimum joint depth that the manufacturer quotes. I did compact the jointing compound, though not quite as thoroughly as Charlie showed himself doing in the video. Also didn't worry too much about the few bits where there was standing water in the joints - just made sure to press it down more. I was sure not to have any "+" joints in my paving, nor any overly long uninterrupted joint lines, though I'm aware these are purely aesthetic considerations. On the rear aspect, the patio (~2m wide) has a generous slope of (40:1) away from the house, into a drainage channel that's connected to the main (combined) drain. (through a 110mm P trap) On the side aspect (~1m wide), it's again sloped away, but into a mortar-walled ~200mm deep trench lined with a weed barrier membrane & filled level with pea gravel. The drains are incredibly shallow on the property (less than 300mm below the surface), which created its own set of constraints and necessitated the use of the soakaway on the side aspect. Will report back if any disasters surface with my approach 😁 One take away I have; if you're going to lay the paving yourself, hire a cement mixer! It was absolutely back-breaking work mixing ~750kg of mortar by hand, and a hell of a lot slower too.
You did a much better job than my builders 😩 Yes if I had my time again I'd have done it properly with sand and cement with waterproof admix plasticiser, piped through a mortar gun. The area I had to fix is already going black. I tried to pressure wash it yesterday and it looks really pitted now. The area I did from scratch looks fine but you look closely and the granular structure is far too loose - it looks like sand glued together. I've had some good suggestions for other products in the Comments - Flowpoint is what the pros use apparently, and GftK VDW 850 2 part is meant to be bullet proof but being two part must be a pain to apply. 👊
I have used two types of this resin bonded jointing compound before both by a German company called Romex. First time was a more commercial grade that involved a two part resin that you had to paddle whisk the hardener into the main bucket of aggregate and resin. This had limited working time but flowed amazingly well into the heavily saturated ground. This was amazing and literally flowed into the joints with just a large squeegy and then brush with no pointing after. It has lasted 5 years with no lift and several high power pressure washes. I then had to do a little patch and chose their all in one product a bit like the one you test here. It was far inferior and I had to do the same as you, pointed and compacted every joint. I would suggest try the commercial two part product. The heavy duty one was called rompox D1, check it out
Thanks mate. Yes this seems to be what everyone is saying (the resin products not being very good). I'll check that out 👌👊
I just watched a video on the D1 stuff and it does look like it flows a lot nicer than the premixed stuff, I might give it a try 👍
@@billysaunders544 I would It has lasted really well.
Nice job done there. I've just had the same Raj Green Indian Sandstone laid, with A Joint Ready pointing used too. 'To seal or not to seal, that is the question'!! I've read sandstone being porous can get algae growing in the surface, but shouldn't be jet washed too closely as that can pit the stone. Sealing would prevent that, but will either make the patio look wet all the time, or dry depending on product used, so I'd lose the nice contrast when it rains. Not sure what to do to be fair.
I don't think pressure washing will pit the stone unless you use a petrol driven machine. I'm with you though on whether sealing it is worth doing. 🤷♂️
It'll be interesting to see how long this lasts Charlie. I've repointed many client's patios with traditional sand and cement mortar after the resin type stuff had been used and failed after just a couple of years! Cheers
Thanks Oli. As you say, time will tell. I'll do another vid in a couple of years to report on how it's performing
That's great, thanks!@@CharlieDIYte
I do wonder if it would be possible to fill joints using a wedge shaped funnel with a long 10-15mm gap along the bottom?
Looking forward to watching this video as I've just had a new Indian Sandstone patio laid and they pointed it with 'A Joint Ready' as per your thumbnail. Hoping not to learn it's the wrong product!!!
I don't think it's the wrong product. Reading the comments it seems the product of choice for this sort of paving. 👊👌
I laid sandstone like yours, used a 3 to 1 mix of plasterers sand and cement. Simple enough.
In the joints? Yep that's probably what I should have done. 🤦
In my previous home I had a patio laid and the builder used a dry sand and cement mix brushed into the joint the wetted. Took about an 30mins for 10sqm and I thought that didn't look right. Within 2 years the joints failed. I scrapped it all out and used a damp sand/cement mix and thoroughly pressed into the joint. 25 years on and those joints are still going strong. In my new house the builder used the sika product and to be fair did follow the instructions but again after 2 years areas failed and a pressure washer just destroyed joints. This summer I scrapped it all out and did it again pretty much how you've done yours and so far every joint still looking strong. This stuff is not cheap though!
That's very interesting Tony - thanks. So the question is whether your builder this time round compressed it or not. It'll be interesting to see how these joints last. 👊
This time round the builder was me….back breaking. Like you absolutely ensured every joint was compacted with a pointing tool….feel confident it will last
Thanks for showing whats involved using that joimt filling product. I think for my patio i will try something like flowpoint. Goes on as a liquid and gets spread into the joints. Not sure if it would work with sandstone but i have opted for porcelain slabs on my patio due to having 3 dogs.
Good idea Derek. The key I think is to properly fill the joints.
@@CharlieDIYte yip I agree and thats why I have chosen to use flowpoint as it will be easier to fill joints as it goes on as a liquid. Your garden is looking good. The work put in has made some difference.
I'm a bricklayer by day but I have dabbled in patios, I used to do a solid bed and pointing after with sand and cement then a builder had me fo five dots underneath tight joints and brush in dry silver sand which seemed great until we spent ages reapplying the sand because it kept settling down between the dots the next and last one went back to solid bed
You can't Use Dot and Dab on Indian sandstone, Salt minerals will migrate through the pavers causing white dots. Always a Full bed!
I'm also realising I should have just kept it simple and done the joints with a stand and cement mix and a jointing gun. Would have saved a lot of money and done a better job.
Just had 60m² of porcelain laid. Think it was about 4:1 sharp sand and cement for the bed. The lads used easy joint. Wet, sweep in, leave to set which took a couple of days due to heavy downpours. Left me a load of grout in a tub of water on the side of which says 'The wetter the better'. Now, I only know what i've seen on YT when researching, but every man and his dog has their own way of doing things and they're all 'professionals' so i'm not criticising anybody. You have done what seems to be a very tedious and laborious job very well. If there are issues with cross joints (🤷♂️) then your proper grouting will no doubt aid in the stabilising of said joints. Thanks for sharing your experiences and hopefully we can beat Fiji at the weekend. 🏉⚘️
Sounds like they've done a great job, Stephen and yes, fingers crossed against Fiji. 👊
Love how the thumbnail is ‘how to point at your patio’
Hadn't thought of that 🤣
I heard compactng the joints affects how pourous they are. Tricky with deep joints maybe a dry brush in of sharp sand and cement 4:1? to get a decent fill before using a commercial jointer?
I used easy joint on my porcelain slabs. It broke down within a year. I’ve topped it up but now I noticed that all the joints have got green moss growing on top of them. Also, if you attempt to touch it with a jet wash it just comes out, mine was laid by a professional tradesmen who warned me Against easy joint, but I thought I knew best maybe I never
I'd be interested to know how much the patio cost, would love to have mine redone but I fear it will be too expensive!
We have the same doors as you 8:38, and just like you the weep vent cover didn't last long. Our 2yr old stood on it everytime he went outside.
I wasn't even given covers. I keep meaning to ask about that. 👊
When you were putting the compound in between the joints I was thinking that a funnel might have helped, especially in the areas that had a lot of space below. I don't know how well that stuff would have flowed through a funnel. As someone with a 3D printer I would have made a funnel with a bottom opening that was as wide as the space between tiles and much longer in the other direction. That way it would sit just above the joint and one could use the trowel to put some compound into the funnel. With a bit of tapping one could get the compound down and then slide the funnel along to the next area.
That would have worked brilliantly. What a clever idea 👌
Good idea. And for compacting, I'd have thought some vibrating tool would have been helpful. Maybe even sound waves - a builders radio pumping drum and bass into the joint!
Looks good but if you have more paving to do try a grout bag next time for a comparison. Much cheaper and easer. A creamy sand and cement mix is necessary, after squeezing it in just leave 40 mins or so to firm up then run along with a jointer or dowelling to finish off.
Have you sealed the Indian stone since this video? If so, what product? We’ve had ours done and the colours when wet are far superior and sealers seem to aid this also. Be interested to hear your experience. Thanks.
Excellent video Charlie - a job that has been outstanding at my gaff for 18months - now you have cracked it fancy a trip to the South Coast?😉👍
Ha, if I had the time Norman I would. However when you do yours, don't use a resin product. You'd be much better work Flowpoint, Gftk VDW 850 or even good old sand and cement. 👊
u did a good job my 2 pence, i used sika: 1. solid base, so i drilled 18mm holes between slabs every 300mm, and 300mm deep which solves the permeable issue, filled with pea shingle 2. presealed slabs 3. wet slabs but not soaking, as already sealed...too much water fills joints, retards setting, makes clean up harder 4. poured out product in 1 m2 of joints, sprayed small mist with hose right into the product, not the slabs, as this makes the product workable 5. compressed all joints thoroughly 6. tooled with a piece of 100mm gutter (v gentle round) and soft brush 7. really good results! 8. any product that is left (as u had) comes off with a light scrape with some wood, nylon scrubbing brush, and wire brush (light use is absolutely fine). 👍👍 its easier than sand n cement, but not a "quick fix"...u still have to follow the steps properly
Nice job. If I had my time again I'd use sand and cement in the joints or possibly Flowpoint.
Just wondering if instead of soaking the pavers with a hose, would it be workable to have a bucket of water and a sponge? So as to just wet the couple of pavers you are working on at any given time? Less likely to have standing water in the joints.
Great video and learning. I am curious as to why you decided to buy the pointing for the builders?
Because I pay them a day rate so all the materials fall to me to pay for.
Brush it in, then use a (cut to slab length) fence feather board to compact it down. 👍
Just saw a video on an interesting product called Flowpoint, maybe you can try that next in one of your projects?
Great video! Recently had my garden landscaped using Indian stone and easy joint (not cheap). The contractor didn’t have any attention to detail now I’m left with movement in my stone (I hear a crunch when I walk over them) and the easy joint is breaking up already (6 months in). I called them back a few times but never got it right. Looks like I’ll be using your video next summer to re-point my patio. If you want a decent job you have to DIY unfortunately!
I have exactly the same issue, sadly. It frustrates me so much that I often don’t watch videos like this because even thinking about the patio makes me a bit cross!
@@djcr_91 I’m the same, I could kick myself handing over all the money. The quality of the workmanship is poor, it can change my mood when I look at the pointing 😂
Sorry to hear that guys 😩 It happens to the best of us. Got my bathroom plastered by someone recommended by a friend. It was the only part of the job I didn't do myself. He wasn't a plasterer and did a shit job. Upsets me every time I go in there.
@@CharlieDIYte you live and learn the hard way sometimes. Would be interested to hear how you get on with the sealer. In my mind a natural product like stone shouldn’t be sealed and allowed to breathe naturally.
You'll want lift and re-bed the slabs (assuming the sub-base is good) to sort the movement before re-pointing, otherwise anything you use will just break up as the slabs shift.
We are doing this on our indoor patio tomorrow. We used sandstone the same as has been laid in the kitchen over 300 years ago. My main concern is that the floor wont be free draining, we have underfloor water heating system underneath the slabs. I have protected them with a great quality water repellent so would you agree we will only need minimal water applied? Any thoughts greatly received 🙏🏻
I just don't know Tracey. Maybe experiment on a small area first. If I had my time again I'd probably do it properly with sand and cement piped through a mortar gun.
Another great content vid. How long did it take to fill your 60sq mtrs ? Ive seen loads of patios done with similar products, none have lasted as they are all set in to mortar gaps that are either too thin or too shallow. I mainly recomend good old sand & cement as it cheaper than all the resin products and seems to bond and last better.
Thanks Graeme. About a week, but that was due to weather and not bothering to do more than a tub a day. Yes if I had my time again I'd have done it properly with sand and cement with waterproof admix plasticiser, piped through a mortar gun. The area I had to fix is already going black. I tried to pressure wash it yesterday and it looks really pitted now. The area I did from scratch looks fine but you look closely and the granular structure is far too loose.
Charlie you are a legend!
Thanks mate 😘
11:56 you shouldn’t have to press that amount of jointing compound into the joints. If you have to do that then the base isn’t right and your voids are too big under the slabs. If you get the consistency correct of your wet bed to lay the slabs on then you can still tap them down and not have the voids. Over the years you’ll have issues with voids that big when the water gets in and freezes underneath.
Fair point. We shall see 🤞
Looks a lovely job to me - great result in the end> One piece of feedback on the video itself though: I found the volume levels really low .. had to turn my laptop vol up really high to hear you, then forgot and got my ears blasted when I moved on to the next video on another channel 😂
I'm sorry about that. I stupidly decided to normalise the audio in DaVinci. Should have just left it the way it was. 😩
Really helpful video Charlie. I own a period property and hoping to extend over an existing flat roof. I was interested in how you tackled the upgrading foundation problem as you showed in your video. Did it come out to be an expensive job?
Thanks. I was paying my builders on a day rate (two of them at £220 each). I can't remember how long it took them to do the underpinning. Probably 3-4 days...
Thanks. I was paying my builders on a day rate (two of them at £220 each). I can't remember how long it took them to do the underpinning. Probably 3-4 days...
Zoe review would be great!!
I've been a bit annoyed with it. The trial part was fine but it's basically an AI driven data harvesting exercise and they leave you to draw you're open conclusions on what food you should be eating. I haven't had time to analyse the results either so I've basically wasted £150 for the next 2 months of the program that I haven't got time to participate in. 😩
@@CharlieDIYte that's so disappointing!!! Thanks for the feedback on it
Another enjoyable video Charlie 👌 just wondering if you follow B&P paving on KZhead? Especially their recommendation to apply a slip mixture on every slab before it's laid on a mortar bed? Those guys say its the only way to lay flags correctly. I don't know the answer I am just wondering what your opinion is? Keep up the content ❤
Thanks Nigel. You're the second person to mention them. No I wasn't aware of their channel but I'll be checking it out now. Consensus seems to be that the resin mortars are a waste of time. Time will tell ... 😬
Would this work for a patio where weeds have grown through? Or will they bust through again pretty quick ?
I reckon if you don't eliminate the weeds they might grow back through.
@@CharlieDIYte thanks Charlie , I would remove them all first, cheers 👍
Why didn't you use a sand and cement point? My mums pointing has cracked and is coming loose. Her pointing is wider so for me I don't think it'll be anywhere near as difficult as pointing those tigher gaps. I've never done it before. Watched a few videos but need to wait until next year as I'm worried it'll crack if I did it now.
I should have done but just assumed that these purpose made products were superior 🤦
@@CharlieDIYte Have you had problems with it since pointing then? I'm unsure if I'm reading into nothing, do you regret using the product you did rather than traditional sand-cement mix?
Useful video 👍🏻 So basically the builders didn’t read the instructions or compact it properly into the joints. What hope is there for the customer paying someone who takes this approach. Might as well DIY it, take your time and potentially do a better job for a lot less money!
Yep that's basically right. But a decent contractor will probably just a superior product like Flowpoint, as I'm now learning 😉
Is it wrong to have considered poking down some skinny stone chips into the gaps first?
Charlie I love what you do but that patio is going to have problems in the future, not a full contact bed with voids. Water will get in there because your compound is permeable and will allow the water in and will freeze and pop the slabs. Primer slurry is an absolute must 👍🏼
Over the year's of doing slab pointing the most cleanest and easiest is 4 to 1 sand cement with a weak S.B.R. Mix . The mix needed to damp and will make a ball in your hand when squashed. To wet and will mark the slabs. Tool in until compacted .
That's good to know. And a fraction of the cost too
Brilliant tip, which S.B.R Mix do you use ?
I can see the benefits of that. Do you pipe it in?
I am not very accurate with amount but about half a liter to 5 litre of water @@RoderickSpoke
Couldn't agree more. I have never had any problems using sand and cement when pointing slabs
Good video, Charlie. Prompted me to share my experiences and SOLUTIONS... I've resin bonded my 120m2 Indian stone patio twice now. First wasn't compacted by the original installer (as you were fortunate to spot)...it was just brushed in and failed over the first winter and jointing compound just lifted out when the patio was jetwashed, ALSO, the jetwash lifted the Indian stone slabs off the concrete/mortar base and I ended up lifting the lot off and starting again. Obvious in hindsight, 130bar jet wash pressurises the entire underside of the slab if it isn't bonded down to the base sufficiently. So...I re-laid the stone slabs on the base after painting the base and the underside of the slabs with a runny SBR/cement paste...bonds perfectly, creates an impervious membrane and cannot be lifted by the jetwash. The original installer now lays all his Indian stone patios using this technique/process and hasn't had another case of slabs lifting under the stress of a pressure wash. First joint repair, was as per your video... removing all old crap first then painstakingly loading each joint and compacting. Worked well for a couple of years but 3/4 jet washes later and it was starting to be lifted out in places. So... Current process that seems to be much more resilient: 1) lay the slabs on the base and bond with runny SBR/cement mix to bond. 2) do the jointing job when it's cool i.e. patio contracted and gaps ever so slightly wider than in the summer. I did one job in the summer and when the patio contracted in the cold, the jointing compound gave way and cracks appeared...water ingress...frost...spalling... 3) load the joints and compact as you have AND further compact with a thin strip of wood and a rubber mallet - that really makes sure the compound is solid. 4) seal the entire surface with waterproof sealer. Process 1-4 above withstands a 150bar jetwash which is imperative of you want to be able to clean a large patio area in a manageable timeframe. If you limit yourself to 100bar jetwash (as I did) and the lichen that inevitably forms just cannot be shifted easily... Which brings me onto jetwashing and cleaning agents.... You can use the various patio cleaning agents and they all cost a fortune. Thankfully their active component is bleach, so, just uses Aldi's own in a 1:4 mix with water and spray the patio before jetwashing. Lessons learned over a 12yr period for me and my current patio is now about as maintenance free as you can get BUT... You talked a lot about having a patio that drains rainwater effectively....mine doesn't, the SBR/cement bonding and the stone sealer make it impervious to water, which runs away from the house into a setup like yours and away. I gave up with the notion of letting it soak through, that idea just created problems. I have one single issue now and that is the joint at the house wall, which does open and close with the seasons but it is much quicker to repair that than the whole patio. I'd be interested to hear any comments about this approach.
You've done a lovely job there. The only thing I'd say from what I've learnt since doing this vid is these resin compounds are rubbish (the area my builders did is already lifting off with the pressure washer). I should have used sand and cement or maybe Flowpoint or Gftk VDW 850
You've done a lovely job there. What I've learnt since posting this vid is that these resin mortars are rubbish and I should have used something like Flowpoint or Gftk VDW 850. 😩
Could you have used Decorators Frog Tape around the edge of each slab and then you don’t need to worry about the staining on the slabs.
It would be a massive pain and wouldn't have another adhesion to make a difference
I notice that Screwfix do a "No Nonsense" version of the jointing compound........
That's probably worth looking into. 👌
I used silka following the instructions. Less than 12 months later it failed and lifted in places 😢
Yep, doesn't surprise me Jason - sorry to hear that btw. Wish I'd just used sand and cement.
The guy who did my patio just brushed it in and the stuff just failed a while later. I redid it pressing the stuff in with a trowel. It you want something doing properly DIY!
Thanks Frank. Yes fingers crossed this lasts. Comments seem to be suggesting these resin grouts are pretty rubbish.
Slabs are better layed without a void and you can level them you just might need a mallet but it will last much longer. also better off just using sand and cement to fill joints
I think you're probably right on both fronts - applied using a mortar gun. 👊
Would an AquaVac type vacuum cleaner be good for removing standing water in the joint gap?
Possibly. You'd need a pointed nozzle though
Deep joints because of bad laying job. There should be material under the stone/tile so the grout doesn't poor in... Just like regular tiles
I used Sika and it was a waste of time, looked great for a month but then the Ants just managed to dig it out, weeds come through and when it’s wet it brushes away again. Next year I will be digging it all out again and using proper stuff
I'm afraid that's probably what I'll end up doing. Should have used sand and cement piped through a mortar gun.
👍👍👍
Good job, don't be so hard on yourself....................
Thanks Alan. 👊
Could you have filled the large voids wirh normal cheaper concrete then use the more expensive stuff to fill in and finish it.
I could, yes. I over bought this stuff though so didn't mind using it.
Why do we leave joints?
Our porcelain patio was laid beautifully but the contractor used this kind of stuff. Quick cheap. Ever since sand/grit always on the surface from the stuff washing out and 3yrs down the road many low or empty joints. Utterly useless awful stuff. Gonna try the 2 part flow-in products. Firstly have to deal with voids under some pavers resulting from the v poor joint stuff used by the contractor.
Sorry to hear that mate. Got to say, wish I hadn't used it now.. Sand and cement if I had my time again.
Flowpoint all the way. It goes harder than cement and it can be pressure washed. Unlike many of the powdered comparatives.
Yep that's what I'm realising Jonathan. Or GftK VDW 850+ 😩🤦
Ive always been told not to have crosses in paving, i thought it was purely for aesthetic reasons
2 parts builders sand - 2 parts sharp sand - 1 cement... make into a semi dry mix, a screed type consistency. Using a trowel and a jointer compress the mix into the joint (make sure its in there firm) finish with the jointer! This premade stuff is useless!
Thanks buddy. Time will tell. I hope you're wrong 😩😬
Why not use a basic sand cement with plasticiser mortar? The run off to the drain means no standing water, no need to have a porous joint either. The only wetting is in the joint itself by using a spray bottle from the £ store, wetting as you go. Try to keep the surface dry within reason. Use a cement syringe application tool to fill the joint neatly but a little ‘proud’ and let the joint go ‘off’ a little before then striking the joint with a rounded pointing tool (15 copper pipe will suffice). Wait till the mortar is almost dry: dry enough to then broom off the excess cement. Ideally the depth of mortar joint not less than the slab thickness, say 40mm. No staining of a mortar joint should occur. But there are stain removal products should that happen. A straight forward, comparatively economical time tested method. Yes, I am a little cynical of these very costly compounds that need so much more attention to conditions needing to be met that largely makes you responsible when they don’t work out as claimed they should!
I was always taught no 4 corners should ever meet
You were taught well.
You want to have a look and easy grout pro. Cokes with an activator and you don’t have long. Def a 2 man job. Goes off 5X times quicker and harder than normal easy grout. Good stuff but not for the DIYer as I found out the hard way
Thanks. Yep wanting would have been better than this stuff.
Volume a bit low on this video Charlie.
I agree. Unfortunately I decided to trust technology and applied an audio normalisation feature in my editing software. Won't be doing that again 🤦
We have the same stone and used the same grouting as you. We had to redo 3 times, and after 4 years it’s a terrible mess. The product is fundamentally flawed and I don’t know why people use it. In fact I know a guy who spent all his life laying patios and he won’t touch the stuff. Think about it - this product is porous so if it absorbs water and then you have a hard frost it’s going to break apart, no matter how hard you pack it down and how perfectly it’s applied. Then it will simply wash away with rain over time. And whatever you do, don’t go near it with a pressure washer, or even a high pressure hose. Also moss and weeds love to grow in it somehow. Think I live near you Charlie, so you are free to pop round any time and see what your lovely patio is going to look like in 3 to 4 years spoiler alert, it isn’t pretty. Also did you seal the stone with anything?
Thanks mate. 😩 Yes if I had my time again I'd have done it properly with sand and cement with waterproof admix plasticiser, piped through a mortar gun. The area I had to fix is already going black. I tried to pressure wash it yesterday and it looks really pitted now. The area I did from scratch looks fine but you look closely and the granular structure is far too loose - it looks like sand glued together. I've had some good suggestions for other products in the Comments - Flowpoint is what the pros use apparently, and GftK VDW 850 2 part is meant to be bullet proof but expensive. Oof you live and learn. 👊