Has Vase Mode/Spiral Mode Become Obsolete?
Chuck questions if Vase mode or Spiral mode is useless now that we have 3D printers that can print so much faster than those in the past. He explains it all in this week's Filament Friday.
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No, not at all. 3d printed RC model aircraft relies on vase mode to keep the skin light with foaming filament.
The trick to better vase mode prints is to crank up the line width to 150-300% of whatever you normally use. Stefan from CNC Kitchen did a video on that a couple years ago, showing that good print quality was still possible while also obtaining dramatically superior strength compared to normal line widths in vase mode. I myself modified some of the old Filament Friday profiles and tested a series of nozzle diameters, line widths, and layer heights, including a 2 mm line width from a 1 mm nozzle with a 0.36 mm layer height...that test ended up extremely strong, I believe at least as strong as if it had been printed with a non-vase mode profile and a normal infill percentage (if not stronger). I didn't do any testing of speed for these prints, but I suspect it will still be faster than a standard print so long as you don't exceed the maximum volumetric flow rate of your hot end.
Just wanted to say that 0.4mm nozzle can print 1mm width lines. 0.6mm can do 1.6mm. Do your own "max line width" testing - not every printer is the same. Have fun!
I think your making the all-too-common fallacy people experience with vase mode printing, and that is thinking that all that is needed is to tick a box. This will always get you weaker prints if you don’t increase your line width, since 0.4mm is still 0.4mm regardless of whether it’s vase mode or not. A 0.6 mm nozzle can easily print 0.8-1.0mm line widths, and as long as you have settings to limit speeds based on max flow rate, you won’t under extrude. I do this all the time and there are many issues I have with current slicers and vase mode (eg hard-set slicer or firmware limits, inability to mix settings for optimised object printing etc), but strength is definitely not one of them… if you make sure you think about the requirements of the finished object beforehand and don’t just leave it up to the printer or slicer to figure out the intent. Depending on the object, and setup (max print speed of printer, max flow of material possible), then you may find vase mode only knocks off small percentages of speed (especially if you can print non vase mode at the max flow rate possible for the material), but one thing we still can’t argue about is final surface quality of vase vs non-vase mode. Vase mode still reigns supreme, which is I wish slicers to spend more time expanding capabilities of this mode rather than the “one and done” approach they all use at present.
If you only use vase mode for speed, yeah, probably. I have always thought of it as "seamless mode", and use it for artsy stuff and some mechanical applications (e.g. sleeves for bearings) where I really don't want seams.
You can print very good things in vase mode with a 0.6 nozzle. I print a lot at 0.5 layer height and 1.4mm width. Very strong and fast with an almost flawless finish
The other advantage of vase mode is there is no seam line. Perhaps the new scarf seams in Orca slicer will further make vase mode redundant, but it is still very new.
I have primarily used vase mode for the aesthetic of single fat layers, with no seams. Useful for things that will be illuminated.
This video kind of misses the mark. Saying vase mode is dead because new, expensive printers exist that print non-vase parts faster doesn't really make sense.
We are printing rc sailboats hulls with .8 vase mode with good results
Single wall prints introduce a corner weak spot unless they're vase mode. So vase mode is still good to conserve weight and material. You can introduce structure into the vase mode sides to make them more rigid. Stop using brittle PLA. Use PETG or HIPS. Use wider extrusion width than 0.4, you can just extrude 0.8mm in vase mode on a 0.4mm nozzle and you don't have to worry about ooze and underextrusion issues stemming from inability of the extruder to compensate pressure on retracts and restarts, you can ramp the speed up as well.
I printed some lampshades using vase mode. I had a lamp base originally designed for those antique style lamps, but wanted to use them for colour changing LED’s. To hide the LED lamps I designed and printed a lampshade that I stuck to the lamp base. Using a white PLA filament, vase mode gave me a lampshade thin enough to allow the light to shine through them. I have also printed some Christmas trees in vase mode, and by placing a hole in the bottom I can insert a small string of battery operated lights into them. Once again the thinness of vase mode allows the diffused lights to shine through, and made them a great table centrepiece.
OR ... Keep doing vase mode, but put the outer wall line width to 0.8mm. That gives you a wall almost as wide as your 2 walls in normal mode, but ... will avoid having a seam and as the entire top is one single long extrusion, it will be stronger than those 2 x 0.4mm walls.
How about vase mode using a honking big nozzle?
Can change extrusion width in spiral mode to get thicker stronger prints
Or also by using a different nozzle and layer height.
if your walls are too thin with vase mode, get a bigger nozzle. not that I disagree that vase mode is dead, but to be blunt it seems to me like you aren't fully utilizing nozzle sizes or high flow hotends. for regular things like boxes, it makes sense to get the biggest nozzle you're comfortable with for walls (maybe 1mm in this case?) and then print in vase mode, and max out flow rate. if it's still going too slow for you, buy a hotend with more flow.
What about vase mode with the K1 and bigger nozzle? How much time will it take? Will it be stronger because of the wider line?
Vase mode isn't about speed. It's an aesthetic choice. Certain prints just LOOK better in vase mode, even if only for the fact there is no visible seam.
I use regular vase mode, 0.8 nozzle, 0.5 layer height, and 2mm line width. Pretty strong, solid end result. Great for boxes and upright containers, but for anything too tall and thin I print separate wider bases for stability. Only minutes per print.
"Don't bother using vase mode guys. Just buy a $650 printer."
Many already have or even bought more expensive versions.
@@FilamentFriday Most people watching your channel, have not.
@ConorFenlon - Actually my research shows the opposite. Many are now K1, K1 Max, etc. owners or people looking to seriously buy one.
Many does not mean most. I would still argue that the vast majority of your viewer base cannot afford them. If your research was attained through community engagement, such as voting, you may just be experiencing confirmation bias. Just because the majority of people WHO ENGAGED said they either have a K1, or intend to purchase a K1, does not mean they represent the majority of your viewership, it just means that the majority of people WHO ENGAGED through your research, are the majority in that niche subset. Most people cannot afford these machines.
@ConorFenlon - Engagement is the audience. My Ender 3 video views dropped off a cliff after Bambu Lab released the X1. K1 style videos brought back the audience. I already have a lot of videos to help Ender 3 users including multiple playlists for those viewers getting started or needing more help. But the K1 and similar are still new and based on views, there is far more interest in them. And like Ender 3 the price will drop so more can afford them in time and by then I’ll have lots of helpful content for all of my audience.
Vase mode is still useful for clear filament, certain prints I do regularly require it
I was making a shield for LCD screen. It was a plate with two L flanges for spacing and mounting. It was 2 layers at 0.6 nozzle. Printed with PETG, normal slicing resulted in excessive travel, reactions, and quality issues. I tried spiral mode, it worked great! Fast and great quality. Spiral is not just for open geometries.
2:20 even with a 0.4mm nozzle you can use 1mm line width for strength and use fuzzy skin or a ridge geometry. 0.8mm nozzle can do up to 2mm. vase mode is still useful if you know how to use it
came to the comments to say this. indeed correct - it surprises me that CHEP does not know this
@KloBass - I shown using over extrusion settings in previous videos and even use it in my Hyper Fast profile. But still not as good as two walls.
Biggest trouble i find with the K1/K1 Max is the startup speed, it's like 8mins even when preheated :( So i use my SV07+ mostly for quick prints like this, startup preheated is like 30seconds at most
If you get a thick nozzle you can make pretty tough vases because you can also overextrude a bit (example 1.2 mm walls with a 0.8 mm nozzle). But the real advantage is complete lack of seam. I still use it sometimes on my Annex K3, where I am minimum layer time limited (cooling) and I could print a non vase mode in exactly the same time.
You can extrude 3 mm walls, too. You just have to slow down a bit to not exceed the maximum flow of your hotend.
@@JenSalik_ Well, yes, but when you go over the top you get some artifacts. You already get some on overhangs when doing 0.6 mm walls with a 0.4 mm. But I think up to 2 - 2.5 mm walls are very possible with a 1.8 mm nozzle!
@@karellen00 True. It depends on the model and what you are comfortable to live with. For straight walls I don't see a problem using thicker walls in vase mode.
I used the transparent service by PCBWay for a canopy window on one of my shuttles and it looks Great! and it really looks like a molded model window from back in the day : )
Vase mode on a 4 with a line width of 6 or 8 + fuzzy skin, works and fun to watch print.
You should really switch to a .6mm nozzle, or even larger, if you're trying to print stronger boxes. But only if you got a CHT or a highflow hotend that can get the center molten. Stefan at CNCKitchen has a video on that.
Instead of a wider nozzle, you could just use 0.6mm walls on a 0.4mm nozzle. The only reason I print with 0.45mm at all anymore is when I want finer details in my outer wall, and even then it's only the outer wall.
What is CHT ?
@Litl_Skitl Does that accomplish the speed which is the goal of this video?
@@meisievannancy CHT made a high flow nozzle a while ago. The 0.6mm thing is still limited by the flow rate of the nozzle, but you can use some more reasonable speeds for it. You also get more material with one move. Were the regular prints even at high flow rate? That might explain a lot as well.
Super Speed Up -> You can actually print like 1mm walls on a 0.4mm nozzle .... ;)
This only speeds things up if your print times are acceleration bound not flow bound. Which is kinda unlikely in the types of prints that look/work right with 1mm line width, but I did do some sub-1hour dragons that way at acceptable quality.
No, if I have prints with multiple pieces I often create a vase box to store them until construction! Also in the RC Plane and RC Cars hobby it's often used!
Ive always wonder, why there cant be a vase mode style continuous extrude, with multiple walls.... Something similar to what it is now, but in stead of only going always up, something like going outer wall, inner wall, up inner wall, then outer wall, up outer wall and then keeps going...
you can do that, it just takes some model finageling
So your point is get a fast printer and stop using vase mode?
.8 line width with a .6 nozzle vase mode works really well and it gives a much cleaner look
Hi, your ExtraFast (0.28) Profile is not in the zip file. love your videos, i was wondering about vase mode because the bin that I made was too thin and it cept on detaching between layers, do you think theres an option in vase mode where it makes 2 trips to double the wall for strength
Thanks a bunch for all the info, Chuck! 😊 Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
If you would like to print containers that you can see the contents, you can use microscope slides, I made a bunch of Gridfinity containers with the glass slide fronts to hold small bolts, nuts and screws. Also I designed stackable Tilt-Out Storage Bins with Window, they are on printables for larger items.
Vase mode is still useful to print... vases ! (Or lampshades) Anytime you really don't want a seam, essentially. But for the applications you've shown vase mode is probably not the best indeed.
I am using a 0.8mm nozzle in vase mode. I make my parts with a slit in them so they are all technically a C with ends that are so close they touch. I then print at 1.5mm extrusion width, for a 3mm thick part that prints crazy fast. I then redesigned the picatinny rails so that my rifle handguard prints standing on it's back. It was going great until I realized I wanted holes in the side for rail slots. Otherwise it was pretty awesome. Going to design a stock that prints in multiple vase mode parts and slots together.
Sometimes vase mode might be a good option for if you want to use less material. That is why I've ever used it in past, not for speed so much.
Not as long as Micro Center keeps pushing new Ender 3s..
Thank you. 👍🏻
When I download the extra fast profile from the Thangs link it shows up as the 0.2 Good profile. Can you please reupload it?
Interesting video. Made me think a bit, and then I thought about something. Not everyone has high speed printers. My fastest one isn't much faster than my Ender S1, that is my new Ender 3 V3 SE. Mostly because I print detailed stuff, It cannot get up to speed. Also the default settings are 60mm outer wall, 90mm/s inner wall. This is supposed to be a 180mm/s profile. SMH. I wonder if the K1 0.6mm nozzle will fit on my E3V3SE? On my E3S1 with a 0.6mm nozzle with extrusion with of 1.2mm {200%} I get a 1.2mm thick wall on my prints. The thing is I love printing bowls and such to store things. So these are all vase mode friendly. And using FF fast profile I get a vase mode print, same wall thickness as 3 walls on a 0.4mm nozzle in less time. I also don't get the seem lines.... For items I don't care about the finish too much, I use a 0.4mm layer height. Speeds it up even more. FYI: I once sliced Dave's Makes Stuff's I love 3D Printing mug for the 0.6mm nozzle with a 0.4mm layer height, and printed it on my second Ender 3 S1 with the 0.4mm nozzle. It came out fine! I was surprised that a 0.4mm nozzle could print 0.4mm layer heights without an issue.
Of course it hasn't become obsolete. In the case you described, you can get just as sturdy and thick walls in vase mode by just increasing your line width. You don't even have to change nozzles from 0.4, as that can print up to 1.2mm walls. I've tried, works fine and speeds up prints nicely. Of course if you do change your nozzle, you can get even wider lines at once.
It's been 4 years now and I have never used vase mode for anything. I think I'll give it a try, but seems to me you have a good point about using a .6 or larger nozzle.
A problem I have with vase mode is if I want multiple copies of the same print. Vase mode only allows for one object, if you print in regular mode, you can print as many as will fit on the build plate. This is often faster than finishing a print, removing it and starting the next -over and over
With orca slicer you can print them separately
Vasemode with 1.0mm nozzle? Fast and thick
0.8 nozzle vase mode)
Kind of sounds like you have relegated vase mode to essentially making draft prints. Have you tried your calibration cube in vase mode?
I use it in a more artistic style of printing - something different. At work we run 2 or 3 wall zero infill on some of our prints if we want a little flexibility with PLA (not allowed ABS. TPU or TPE printing - ventilation concerns)
Olá, sou seu fã de Portugal. Gostaria de saber como fez a prateleira de madeira, como fez os locais para encaixar as gavetas. Obrigado
I use vase mode for light defusers in some of the lamps i make. But there are things that i no longer use vase mode for. Also if i want to test something before doing a full on print I'll use vase mode. I guess I'm short how i use it has changed as opposed to not using it.
I downloaded your extra fast profile, but for some reason the "extra" part did not download and the fast portion of it was slower than I thought.😂😂😂
I only use vase mode rarely when I actually want the effect, not for speed. It's good for quick jobs where the CAD would be more work without vase mode, or where you need to avoid seams for aesthetic or functional reasons.
@CHEP Hey Chuck, I just purchased your Arduino book. Any chance you may make a revision ?
What are you looking for? I’ve redone several chapters using the Tinkercad Circuits simulator and post them to my Thangs.com membership page. I’m working on new chapters as well that will be posted there. I can post it quicker than publishing in a book, update it at any time and even link in a video as necessary.
@@FilamentFriday Sorry, it's just that I'm an old dude (67+), very new to programing/electronics. I like books I was just wondering as that book was published 8 years ago.
CHEP, What do you think of the Official New Update Ender 3 Dual Z-axis Upgrade Kit?
From what I see there is nothing new about it. It’s been around for a while. I cannot recommend it as the board is designed to drive one stepper not two as would be proper.
@@FilamentFriday Thx for your advice. I did not know about the stepper!
I feel if you print to boxes on the K1 at the same time, the total time should be less. I think the minimal layer time has slowed you down a bit.
With 0.6 nozzle you could set 1.2 wall width :) And even add fuzzy skin to make it niiiice
What about waterproof?
I use vase mode when I am making a mold box for silicone rubber. It will hold the silicone for the molding process and then is easily broken off the cured silicone rubber. The actual mold part, I print normally and glue it to the vase mode printed box. Mix silicone and pour into mold and after curing the outside box comes off pretty easily. So, I am using the fragile characteristic to my advantage. Other than that, it is pretty much useless as the prints are very fragile.
Heads up your Ver3.8 Cura V5.0 Filament Friday ExtraFast (0.28) Profile isn't correct on Thangs. The 3mf is loading a 2.0 profile. Multiple people have confirmed this.
Thanks. The individual profile is correct.
Spiral mode seems like it is able to generate viable structural scaffolding, for even certain types of medical innovation to occur. 🤔
Never bothered with vase mode even with slow printers. Produces flimsy parts
I've always found vase mode, even when I increase line width and extrusion, to be a little flimsy. I haven't used vase mode for anything I cared about in years.
CHEP, I normally like most of your content. However, not everyone can afford a K1 or Bambo, and I, for one, am sick of all you content providers making videos about this or that being dead since you all can afford new stuff.
Unfortunately technology and tools change as time goes on. The economy sucks and it is hard to justify replacing printers or even upgrading. I get it, but just because someone's workflow changes because of new tools doesn't mean that yours are no longer usable. If it works for you and your work flow, who is to tell you it is dead. Just don't be upset with people who are doing content on the latest trends.
Klipper would help too get you much faster speeds at a fraction of the cost
@@PandaTaco I'm still running 3 ender 3 printers and an ender 5 with klipper. I was even able to run input shaping with an Arduino uno I had laying around. It may still not be as fast as the Qidi Q1 Pro I just got, but it does make a huge change in the printers performance and features.
Come on now, he is still making plenty of Creality content. And you can get a Bambu P1 (which is AMAZING) for $599. How much are you spending on your TV or stereo, or phone for that matter? Lol. It’s like complaining about people KZhead vids covering iPhone 13. instead of iPhone 7, or many other analogies you can come up with.
I've never really liked vase mode. I did see a video a year or so ago from the channel BV3D and he done something similar to this and calls it Fake vase mode. I have done a few prints like that and it works well, I've not used vase mode since making a fake vase mode profile
Never liked vase mode. Printed two poop collectors for the P1P and the both fell apart. Good vid Chep.
0.8mm nozzle with 1.2mm extrusion width is pretty sturdy and works very well for vases.
@@drstefankrank Oh. Shame I don't have a .8mm volcano nozzle to print with then. But thanks.
Arguably PLA is the wrong material for any type of thin-wall prints, PETG and HIPS can take more of a back and forth flex by orders of magnitude and have great cohesion and layer bond. PETG doesn't like speed changes and has a tendency to ooze but this means it performs much better on vase mode prints than usually.
@@matbroomfield try 0.6 to 0.8 extrusion width with your 0.4 nozzle and use PETG and see if that works. 0.45 as the standard width is indeed too thin.
@@drstefankrank Wow, this is beyond my current skill level, but it will be interesting to explore. Thank you!
It's not vase mode that's dead or should die. It's the ender 3.
Let's be honest, vase mode isn't hugely useful to begin with. Even for a vase or desk tidy you really need a thicker shell. I've wonder if it might be useful for making moulds or something but only for shapes with simple perimeters. Even an overhang scuppers it. A "vase mode" which has a couple of perimeters and 0% infill is probably more useful and would deal with some overhangs. Speaking of moulds, I wonder if there is a simple tool that can take a model, invert it, and create a 2, 3 or 4 part mould. Even better if it allows control of parting lines, sprues and registrations.
I stopped using vase mode a long time ago.