Playing In The "Red" Of The Lips: Why Players Do It And How To Avoid It
2024 ж. 15 Мам.
228 800 Рет қаралды
GRAMMY Award-winning trumpeter, composer and educator Charlie Porter demonstrates how brass players, regardless of lip size, can avoid the pitfalls of playing in the "red" of the lips (top and bottom) and improve endurance, sound and high register as a result.
Charlie's "How To Form An Embouchure" video:
• How To Form a Trumpet ...
Embouchure eBook:
www.charlieportermusic.com/pr...
Charlie's website:
www.charlieportermusic.com
Charlie's Spotify Link (All of the music used in this video are from his two albums as a leader):
open.spotify.com/artist/1TkmC...
Charlie's music for sale on BandCamp:
charlieporter.bandcamp.com
Thanks. I picked up a trumpet recently for fun, having never had any lessons. No teachers within 1000km of where I live and I know no one playing trumpet! Glad I saw this early on in trumpet journey!
I have been playing for 5 years and I just figured this out 😭
@@ethantran3385 I been playing for 7 years and barely seeing this lol
@@ethantran3385 I had been playing since September so I am here to what not to do on the trumpet 🎺
I "ditto" nathanmort1816. Thanks for the intelligent video! Great teaching
I've spent so long trying to fix my embouchure. I'm a French horn player who has been struggling with my trumpet for my high school jazz band and I saw this video and was immediately able to play a high c. I couldn't ask for a better Christmas gift. Thank you so much and have a blessed day
I remember doing this when I first started playing. The music teacher we had in school would not stop complaining that us 1st and 2nd year trumpet players couldn't hit the 2nd octave F in songs, we just had to find a way to do it so he would damn well shut up about it, and I did, by doing exactly what you described. Moved the mouthpiece down, so it went to the red part of my upper lip and bam, instant higher notes. Didn't find out til years later that it had destroyed my ability to play for any extended length of time and getting anything beyond a 3rd octave D felt impossible. Top this off with living in a small town with no brass teacher and with every other brass teacher I came across not wanting to teach me until I had "fixed" this problem. Not one of them even attempted to provide any kind of solution to this, much less how to properly form an embouchure properly in the first place. It got to a point where I just couldn't improve anymore and having to try and figure out everything on my own as an adolescent, I just gave up on playing the instrument. And here I am, liking and hating the instrument at the same time. I sometimes think about what I could have actually done with it if I had been taught properly
come on guy! You try your best, let's do it again like the old day but with a good and correct lesson!
Yes come on! Im going through an embouchure change right now because of this ,its so so difficult. I'd been playing with half my top lip in for 10 years and it was partly coz of my teeth but not I got them fixed and im working on the new embouchure. I can slowly feel it getting better ,its definitely so so frustrating at times ,but it will be worth it
Whine less play more. I'm 61 years old and relearning the right way. Getting better every day.
@@newunderthesun7353 Ok boomer
Wyatt I'm right there with you -- I haven't played in 30 years and I'm constantly taunted by all the fantastic insight I get from these tremendous players all over youtube. IF ONLY.. IF ONLY. I knew some of these things way back then. I had one college teacher that maybe touched on some of the techniques --- having me hold the horn in the palm of my hand without any pressure and learning to get to the high notes - albeit without any power -- but even that --- was not near the advice that I've gotten on line. Unfortunately I live in a quiet development with thin walls and my neighbors would not appreciate this 57 year old learning how to play trumpet again. lol
These lesson are worth their weight in gold. I played horn very easily from 2nd grade on, but no one ever showed me proper embouchure which led later to not being able to play through the entire range and early fatigue. Bless you Charlie.
That was it. I marked the time with my original "bingo" 2 weeks ago. The progress, in 2 weeks, is that I moved from a very painful high A and an endurance of 60 minutes, to double high D and collapsing after 2 hours. With an Artisan 3C. Well my teacher thought I wasn't using enough air, so I always had to blow the Greek Gods of Wind through that piece of metal. I'm still adjusting and if I don't pay close attention I play a B flat instead of an F. A 2 mm change opened up the high register for me. The notes were always there, I just couldn't get to them. Now I need to build the muscles and do some target practice. In 6 months I'll be fine. Thank you Mr.Porter. You helped making a fat noob trumpet player happy.
Charlie, wish I had you as a teacher when I played in high school. This is exactly what I did and ended up with a split upper lip, pain and a drastic reduction in my playing. Went from 1st chair in junior high/playing 1st trumpet to playing 3rd and a lot of angst. Then went through some painful abdominal surgery as a Junior to boot. Thought of quitting but stuck it out. I’ve got medium sized lips but did it to improve my range, which I never really had to my satisfaction. Had some good teachers, but they never pointed this out. Now I’m retired and in my 60’s and have picked up the horn again and use your videos as a foundation for practice. I think I’m playing better now than when I was a kid, so thanks for that!
Just wanted to mention some basic vibration theory: Basically every physical object will vibrate to some degree. Some physical objects have more internal damping and will vibrate less (like Jell-O). But more solid objects have 2 essential properties for vibration: stiffness and mass. In mechanical engineering everything is simplified to make mathematical predictions as easy as possible, the basic vibration model is a point mass on the end of a spring that is grounded on the other end. The natural vibration frequency of the mass bouncing on the spring is sqrt(stiffness/mass). So the frequency increases as stiffness increases and decreases as mass increases. There are 2 opposing forces in the system, one is the spring force pushing or pulling on the mass, the other is the inertia force of the mass as it accelerates (which is happening constantly back and forth). The 2 forces are equal except when forced or there is a lot of energy dissapation in the system (there's always some). So your lips are like this except the stiffness and mass are distributed over the region of your embouchure. There are a lot of ideas proposed for how the lips change frequency and I suggest it is more complex than a guitar string because with a guitar string you change the length that is vibrating, what this does is reduce the mass that's vibrating, and the stiffness is not changed, it's set by the tuning. With the trumpet, to play a note most efficiently, the lip frequency should match the acoustic frequency of the horn as closely as possible (set mostly by the tube length). The amount of tissue that's vibrating determines the mass, and the lip tension determines the stiffness, and the mass and stiffness determine the natural frequency the lips want to vibrate at when forced by air pressure. The trickiest thing, I think about the trumpet, may be the interplay among variables in the embouchure system, mainly between mass and stiffness. When you modulate your embouchure you effect both the mass and stiffness simultaneously. When you tense your lips you also reduce the amount of tissue (mass) that is moving in the vibration. Changing mp placement, as Charlie covers very well here, also changes the stiffness and mass of the embouchure system. There's an infinite number of ways you can place and tense your lips, compared to a guitar, which can be bit more limited due to the mechanics of the frets but of course people have found ways to be very expressive on the guitar by other means. The trumpet IMHO is more expressive, and it more closely emulates the voice due to being similar to the vocal cords.
SINGLE DEGREE OF FREQUENCY !!! The same principles apply in Blast Design (RE: Structures).
Damn i was genuinely wondering about the physics of lip vibration during this video. So glad you could give such a detailed explanation thats awesome. One thing im comfused about tho, you said when you tense the lips the stiffness is increaed but the mass of tissue vibrating is decreased. If the lips are tensed, wouldnt there be the same volume of lip vibration since mouthpiece has a fixed cross sectional area, whilst the density of the tensed lips is higher than loose lips, thus increasing the vibrational mass??
@@lp9931 I dont know about lip phyics specificslly but do know about theories of vibration, I think what's likely true is that the stiffness and mass vary constantly and vary between players. When you tense your lips the amount of vibrating tissue varies along with the stiffness. If you use a smile embouchure for instance maybe there is less surrounding tissue vibrating when tensing.
I mean, that and the AIR… You can keep the embouchure constant and still move through several partials just by changing the air. It’s a very complex system to model. Woodwinds, for example, manage without changing the modulus/stiffness if the reed. Granted, they have register keys (flute excluded) to encourage higher harmonics.
Thank-You for the vivid explanation. Long time coming..but worth the wait.
I had no idea this was even a thing - I'm trying it now and the default note that comes out when I just put air through the trumpet went from a middle G to a high G. I recently got moved up to first in a jazz band I'm and I've been really struggling with the high notes, so thank you so much for this.
this is what I needed all these years ago, man i'm grateful you're making these videos
Thanks for the great content. Went and watched the 4 step setup video. You've improved your audio quality on your videos a lot!
You really inspired me. So appreciate what you have done. I start to play my trumpet again. These videos are priceless . Thanks for your sharing
Started playing the trumpet 3 months ago, this tips are gold...
This is simply amazing... thank you so much for sharing your knowledge! Please keep producing these informative videos!
This is immensely helpful !! Thank you, Charlie !!
shaking my head in disbelief at the way you have added so much value to my playing, thank you
Splendidly presented. Your enthusiasm and understanding is refreshing. Excellent.
Holy cow! I had no clue this is even a thing and it makes sense! It has been at least almost two years since I touched my french horn and I know I had been playing in the red, most likely because that was how I was taught. Just by your descriptions and replaying in my head what I did makes total sense and I can see what you're saying to change. I'm now really excited for Friday to come so I can travel home and play with my horn this weekend (its honestly been a while since I've been even interested or even thought of my horn). Pretty much will have to force myself to start over a bit but I can see how this connects to other things my teacher was trying to teach me a few years ago. Light bulbs are going off everywhere lol! I wish I had discovered this sooner back in high school and it would have made band class (my favorite class) way more enjoyable and less frustrating. I hated and struggled so much with the high range because of the pain and endurance. Thank you so much!
This is the video what I have been looking for my entire career as a trumpet player, thank you so much man!
Bravo Charlie. A very well presented video and I'm sure it will help many trumpet players.
Thanks Charlie, for a very interesting and thought provoking presentation. I’m in my sixties and have been playing since elementary school but remain just average, even on my best days. I’ve not played much during the pandemic, the ensemble that I play with has been inactive but I do need to get back in the practice room, and this certainly give me something to think about.
Thank you so much Charlis Porter. I am a beginner and as a vocalist and piano player I overstand the importance of learning a good habit as apposed to a bad habit in the beginning approach to any form of music or life. I will continue to follow your teaching method and I pray that you have a beginners class on line or CD. You truly are a fantastic teacher!!! Peace and Love!!!
Thank you so much for this info! Definitely keep coming back to them as I’m trying to get more efficient and consistent with making sure my embouchure is working for me instead of against me!
I got a cornet today to learn on Charlie and so glad I found your video before I begin to learn all the wrong ways of playing ! I'm subbed on you so hoping I can pick up some good skills. Thanks for sharing.
I haven't picked up a horn in 40 years. I needed this lesson to find my clear sound again. Thank you!
Thank you Charlie for sharing these videos I have learnt a lot from your videos I watch many of them you have such a good sound I am new to playing just started learning to play I play cornet and trumpet and is all self taught still have a long way to go will keep watching your videos to learn more . Thank you.
This tip has made a huge improvement in my endurance and high range. I’m a intermediate beginner, and the adjustment time was short (30 mins of long notes and BANG). Much gratitude to Mr Porter for the deep teach.
Thanks a lot for your video ! I have big lips as well, and I always had troubles playing high and maintaining endurance. I realize now that I moved my embouchure to the red when I needed high notes. Anyway, I had a gig last night, I played following your advice, and it worked perfectly! I'm so glad after all those years of hassle
Thank you for these fantastic videos Charlie!
Love your videos Charlie! Great explanation of issues re: playing in the red. I'd like to offer one additional reason for not playing in the red that is very important, i.e. Playing in the red essentially compromises the important role of the orbiculares oris in making the embouchure work correctly. The orbiculares oris is the muscle around the rim of the lips that controls most movements of the lips, including making your trumpet embouchure work correctly. BTW: we had a great chat when you played in Qualicum Beach, BC last year.
I'm glad I found your channel! I'm in the American Legion Honor Guard and I'm trying to learn taos on the bugle. I have always been a string instrument musician, and this has been frustrating, but there is nobody in this area who can play bugle.
Charlie, thanks. I tried your steps without a mouth piece, and I do feel more confident with it. Your explanation really helps.
Great content! Played for years with range issues from playing too much on the red. Took lessons for years and through college, and no one said a word about it. . no one knew how to help. I went through this process (changing embouchure to get OFF the red) in my 30's and my trumpet playing is infinitely better and I really don't have any range limitations. Thank you for providing this instruction and preaching the word!
Came across this today - great info, enjoyed my lesson with Charlie a year or so ago, definitely got me thinking in a new and useful way to how I approach certain parts of my setup
Great demonstration and very helpful. Thank you!
Good lessons. I listen this morning. Great 👍
Damn it...I needed this lesson/revelation about 40 years ago. I played trumpet and marched in drum and bugle corps (SUTA!) and always struggled with endurance and consistent quality in the upper register. Reworking my embouchure with this in mind would have made all the difference, I believe. In any case I'm glad I stumbled onto this if for no other reason than now I know about Charlie Porter and his music.
Great tutorial! This is such an important factor for success and enjoyment in playing trumpet! I too learned playing in the "red" and my private teachers never addressed any of this with me until I went college. I studied with Roger Murtha at the Hartt School of Music and clocked it. He gave me a choice to switch my major from African -American Music Jazz Trumpet to Music Education to fix the problem or give me a customized set of drills from the Schlossberg, Arban and Clarke books. Well, I chose the later because I loved being around all the jazz legends like Jackie McLean and all the master classes he had with the heroes of jazz. After graduating, Roger recommended I study with Valerie Ponomarev and make transition from in the 'red' to 1/4 up and 1/4 down. I took a little over a year but I'm grateful I did it, and twenty five years later I still keep in touch with Roger and Valerie for I owe them so much! I'm sorry to be long winded Charlie, but your video tutorial reached home to me and thank heaven your putting this out there. As a music educator my self, I make it my business to address mouthpiece placement with all my students and it's a joy to watch them grow! Thank you so much for this video, you're a blessing! Be safe and well, Rob Ravosa
Add one more player "saved," but different. When I was 15, playing well (tho I don't remember if I was doing it right), a guy threw a baseball batt and knocked out my front teeth - 3 on top and 2 on bottom. Broke 'em off at the gum line. (I was laughing at the time of impact, so my lips were basically spared.) I quit playing. Now, 61 years later (yeah, I'm 76), I've bought a cheap cornet because I just want to play again. I found your embouchure teachings two days ago just as I've been able to get the first clean 1st octave G, and now the sun has broken through with angels' voices and I see the way ahead. Thanks! I got your ebook, will get your albums and am working on it! Thanks a million!
Thank you so much for this video, it came out just in time. I recently learned I was playing way too much in the red and now I’m learning the right way. Thank you !!
Lucky me discovering your channel! Found out I did it wrong for ages! I am 25 now and taking trumpet back after quiting due to braces. Lifting up my embouchure helped out straight away! Thanks so much sir! This is incredibly helpfull ! Merci
Oh my god, all these years... This is an amazing lesson. Thank you very much. I have instantly improved by a lot just from this video.
Charlie, thank you so much for sharing such great tips!
Charlie, this was very helpful! Thank you sir!
Thanks man! happy I found you. 1 year of learning on my own and some red lips.
Hey Charlie, thanks so much for making this video. I've since found my own way to this realisation and had probably been partially playing on the red for my whole career. I've recently gone the Maggio route which naturally steered me into a non-red embouchure. Ironically i've always had decent range and edurance, I feel like I've turned a corner. Looking forwrad to getting back to gigging post covid but man, some of the muscles are going to be playing catch up!
Thanks Charlie ! Helpful as always !
Charlie Earths Trumpet Guide, we thank you sir!
Man I really needed to see this video, been struggling with endurance issues lately and I’ve been playing in the red without knowing anything about how bad that was for you. Thanks for the help man 👑🎶🎺
Fantastic advices, thanks a lot! 🎺
Thank you for your teaching, it makes it easier for me as a beginner
What a legend bro, that's perseverance, God bless
72 yrs old and only 5 yrs into this. I've learned more here about how to from the embouchure than all the lessons --- and --- it's been a tremendous help and assistance. To reiterate the comment below: Thankyou thankyou thankyou!!!!
Lawrence, I'm 63 and have just started playing the cornet again this year, haven't played since I was in my early twenties. I'm learning more from his videos than I ever knew before. I'm still struggling to play, but I'm on the right path and having fun thanks to Charlie Porter's videos. Wishing you the best.
@@rickeyhargrove7556 Appreciating your comments. It's old guys having fun---LEARNING
Lawrence & Ricky, I’m 62 and just started back 2 weeks ago. Previously I played for 8 yrs ending when I graduated high school. I too have learned more about the basics from Charlies’ videos than I ever did before or from my current teacher.
My teacher is the best. Unfortunately, I believe, by reading the comments teachers fail to grasp the situation because it's a mere 2 millimeter move on the upper lip (for me) that they just can't see. BTW, I'm 52 and I started playing 4 years ago after a hiatus of 35 years :)
I love the fact that you have such a good understanding of this topic and have probably the greatest reasoning and opinion of this super controversial and highly sought after topic for understanding. With this entire video you pretty much covered all the variables of this except for a few very obscure things that I have "discovered" and researched. I play inside the red of my bottom lip and have played like this for 11 years and I use the MF protocol for my preferred embouchure method which is loosening my entire aperture and embouchure. 1. This is mainly a topic for the embouchure type of tightening and pressure changing for different notes: This is the most common and most widely used in almost all the world and there is more information about this than a couple of others out there. 2. The other embouchure types such as loosening your entire embouchure from the corners to your aperture to smiling and widening your embouchure and aperture for different notes and tone qualities aren't the most suited for this topic. Tightening and using the pressure changing method in these types of embouchures are different for them in a lot of different ways. 3. The anatomy of everyone is different may cause more harm than good if this information is used too literally. Most people don't find things easier if change is suggested to a person if they already have an existing use of their embouchure type. 4. Use of information from a teacher about a complete different use of something about your anatomy should be used cautiously and under the supervision of an educator that has extreme experience with what is your preferred method or use of different methods combined for there own use. This information that I have provided is mainly an educated opinion with extensive research over a few years with teachers and students from the state of california and Arizona. Please comment on this about different information and experiences that you have had about anything, I'd love to hear it and help me educate myself and others about it. I love criticism and others who have a lot of information about this highly controversial topic
Thank you for this video - very informative and useful!
Charlie, I’ve been playing the trumpet for over 65 years, I’m 75 old. I have recovered from a stroke. I didn’t play for some 3 yrs.and looking around for a method to get my chops back in shape. I really like your method and am following it an it seems to be working, thanks for your teaching method, it seems logical and not a gimmick Marc Brandl
I'm a woodwind player but I find your videos very informative. Thanks 👍
Another light switch moment for me! Thank you.
Thank you Charlie 🎶🎺
CONGRATS ON THE GRAMMY! I’ve been following you since middle school and now I’m in college. So cool!
What Was it for ? 😱
Thank you Charles. Great information.
Thank you very much for an invaluable lesson which is so essential to know for beginners like my good self.
Thanks a million for the not-puckering tip my man!
Watched this as a trombonist and got my mouthpiece out and realised a small portion of the red in my bottom lip was inside the rim, now I'm tucking it in and playing feels better and tone is reliable, thanks! I think I normally vary slightly how I put the mouthpiece to my chops, sometimes the red is all in and sometimes not, but I hadn't thought about this as a thing to worry about!
Thank you for this tip you just told me the answer to my number one problem atm
Thanks, Charlie!
Wow. Never put together I might be playing in the red because I was adjusting due to my lips. Thank you for this!
Thanks, Charlie this video was very helpful. I did not have a teacher starting out so i formed the habit of playing in the red. i now have to go back in time and learn how to place the mouthpiece. properly
Thank you ... I've been working the mouth pieces of trumpet, tuba, and baritone with tremendous success when I go back to the instrument. I had no idea how to work the lips so they formed the skin of a drum.
thank you for that Charlie
Thanks so much Charlie!
Learned so much!
Charlie, thank you!
Great vid Charlie. I too played in the red previously. One time I played some short pieces in a Phil Smith masterclass and he suggested move the mouthpiece u p! I waited 5 yrs to do it but once I did it made a huge difference. I really had hit a wall with my playing and could no longer play a long gig.... Took me another 2 yrs to feel natural that way but well worth it....should've done as a teenager.
I have big lips like you. I wish I'd known this years ago! I've always struggled with the big RING on the top lip. Probably from too much pressure. Gonna watch your embouchure video now and see how I've been probably doing it wrong for 24 years. My trumpet teacher in college used to try so hard to get me to avoid so much pressure.
I'm a cellist, professional 60 years, but I enjoyed your presentation! Now and then I play F Horn. So it's just good to know these things.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! I was stuck like 3 months on low notes because I was playing in the red of the lips
Great stuff!… been working on my embouchure for about 9 months. Keep shifting it, but its slowly getting there...
Thanks Bro, I benefited more from hearing about how you struggled while learning and developing your style as a solo practicing player especially with our current situation I sometimes feel like sh1t after a session, when I watch any of your videos I get a boost.
best 17 minutes ever to help my playing.
Hi Charlie. Good video. You have a very good presence . And I love your playing.
Watching this 5 years since i've touched a horn since high school. I remember playing in the red after I got braces and it improved my tone and range, but after an hour my lips were shot. I was 3rd chair and played in the jazz band.
Thanks a lot Mr Porter
Hi Charlie. Thanks so much for your tips,are very valuable. Hugs. Good Bless you. Cheers!
Great work i found it very helpful thank-you
As a man who also has very "kissable lips" I've been told simple to make the letter "M" and let the air create the embouchure with the sort of "poo" motion and it's gotten me a long way so far... I'll have to give your "four step method" a try! I initially came here because I have a few colleagues who play "in the red" and I've always been told to avoid but was never told why... Maybe one day if you come on back to the Palm Beach area we can meet for a lesson and a coffee... Thanks again for all the great content!
thanks to you, i've got it! lip buzzing is the key
Great video! Wish someone taught me this back in 1980.
Hello, Charlie! I'm your subscriber from Ukraine and I watched the most of your videos and I delighted with them! I've playing the trumpet for 18 years and in my childhood I played at my top lip and the bottom lip was under the top, but I played well. Then, I had the problems in college, because my lips had grown up, and I changed my set up, unfortunately unsuccessfully. Now, I'm trying your four-step setting up, but my lips are very uncontrollable and after practice I usually have a scar from the teeth on back of the top lip. Sorry for my English and I would be glad for any tips or advices from you, thank you!!!
I’m so glad I found this vid. I thought that playing in the red meant the inside of your mouth. It makes so much sense. My lips were always beat up when I played because I was out too much pressure the only red of my lips. To try and combat that I puffed my cheeks so my lips wouldn’t hurt. Then my corners got really fatigued which is what I’m struggling with now and they get really sore. My endurance is so bad. I’m glad I can fix this while I’m still a freshman.
Kia ora @Charlie Porter, this is an awesome video - I only wish you had made it 10 years ago! I used to play trumpet on the red throughout highschool with so much frustration, that I thought I should just give up and play euphonium. Once I started undergrad I had it changed and it was the best decision for my playing. That's not to say it was easy though - in fact it was one of the most agonizing things I had to go through! I was supposed to be an undergrad trumpet student, yet it felt like I had to start over with the range of a beginner. One of the things that I had to watch out for was other bad habits that I developed while I was playing in the red. This included not knowing how to use the tongue to change the pitch among many other things. Anyways, I digress. I'm digging these new videos and I'm so gutted I missed out on seeing you here in New Zealand!
you came a hell of a long way, and like Charlie said in the video, aren't you glad you did!
So great for beginner, thank you
Nice Charlie, I read your bio on Wikipedia. I studied at The Mannes School of Music from 1967 thru to 1970. My trumpet teacher who was a trombone player decided I needed to change my embouchure to get "a symphonic sound", even though I had great chops. His advice wrecked my embouchure, not that I even knew what an embouchure was at the time! In my second year, I discovered that a few of the guys were taking lessons outside of school with Roy Stevens (Costello Method), and I studied with him trying to recover my range and flexibility. Unfortunately, it became too frustrating and I gave up. I'm trying to make a bit of a comeback now playing for my own pleasure. Thank you for posting on KZhead... you're a good man "Charlie Brown".
Awesome video !!!! thank you so much !!!!
WOW So Useful info, Thanks lot
Very good explanation.
Thank you for sharing
Thank you for this video. Although extremely difficult to do, changing my embouchure makes sense according to your instruction. As a side note, if your friend still makes those Bach 17c mouthpieces, and wouldn't mind making another one, I'd pay top dollar to have one made for me. Anyway, thanks again for a great video.
Such good content. Wish I had heard this message when I was 15, well before the days of KZhead! Playing in the top lip destroyed my trumpet playing and I’m now focused on trombone. Interestingly I have Invisalign which are removable braces and when do play the trumpet my range is way better with the braces in, no idea why.
Always thought Brownie's MP must have been huge with his tone....thanks Charlie. Good stuff.