Why No Tugs Follow- Up (Pt.2)
2024 ж. 28 Нау.
46 269 Рет қаралды
I think many of you may have missed what I was trying to say.
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Everyone on the internet instantly evolved from a public policy expert into a maritime engineering expert in half a picosecond. Ignore the fools, you're an expert and a gem in your field. I appreciate you.
A friend of mine would say, there's 8 billion people and 16 billion opinions.
Brilliant dont change anything
I beg your pardon, I'm KZhead certified! (Insert sarcasm here)😂😂
I appreciate that! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
@@hendrickswart4122 , Dude, ain’t that the truth! I’m not anywhere close to knowing a fraction of what the maritime community should or should not do in these circumstances. But, I know enough to keep my mouth shut and try to learn from those who actually do it. I like that “8 billion people/16 billion opinions” comment. I’m gonna remember that!
If the Dali were going at 2 knots it would still have knocked the bridge down. It’s physics. CUOTO
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
MV Dahli is a case of do as I say and not as I do. Don't worry about...it just they require in other harbors using "US Federal Law" (50+ plus years in CA) other than the Beltway Bandit States...PS...They are short changing you in terms of pay if you have not figure it out.
Thank you, Tim, for adding common sense and real-life experience to the idiocy of the world🥰
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
I couldn’t agree more. Doesn’t it seem like so many people are suddenly experts? They seem to refuse to accept the knowledge of someone who has worked in a given field for decades.
I agree! Thanks Tim for your very common sense questions and answers.
I grew up in the Netherlands and they have a saying: 'the best helmsmen are on shore'. Every lock in every canal has its fair share of would-be captains sitting on benches commenting on the skills of the skippers that are coming through. The one thing that we can be sure of is that the crew and pilots on that ship did not want this to happen. Unless you were on that ship witnessing what was happening, no one has a right to criticize the crew, or anyone else involved for that matter. Tim, you probably have forgotten more about tugs and moving large masses than most of us know. I love your channel, please keep doing what you are doing
😂😂😂😂 I love that! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
I grew up in the age of falz-flgs! The best ppl to interpret large-scale "accidents" are those that don't buy into the "official" story!🤣
Hi Captain Tim! I for one, totally understood your first video. A lot of people don't seem to understand the astronomical MASS of the Dali, and all of that energy is HARD to stop or even turn in a hurry. For what it's worth, I am an Engineer, and I agree with YOU. CUOTO
Outstanding Mellissa! Thank you for watching! Thank you for Supporting! Thank you for being such a great part of the channel! CUOTO
I am an engineer too. Boats without safety integrity level to not damage critical infrastructure should be not allowed. ITs cheaper than anything else to not allow a single big boat in the channel unless they have 2 or even 4 back up systems and unhackable computers.....ONLY THEN will they be allowed without tugs and very very slow speed...so stop being stupid
@@davidgarrett7673 being an engineer why did you mention "unhackable computers". You of all people should know that there are no systems that are "Unhackable"
WE HAVE multiple back up instruments on critical loops on a nuclear reactor. They must have multiple controllers ..several levels of backup. STOP ALLOWING CHEAP chinese hackable crap run through our critical insfrastructure. IT DOES NOT COST THAT MUCH....COMPARED to whats happening now. These cheap crap ships should not be allowed if they are millions of pounds of weight loaded as they are basically nuclear level force running at 8-10 knots. STOP BEING STUPID
1 hundred thousand tons at 5 or 7 knots with two tractor tugs would take probably a half mile to change that ship’s direction slightly and maybe a mile to totally stop the ship ? And all that depends on current, tide,wind.
You sir are a rare gem. Thanks to your Tug Company for letting you make these videos to educate the public. Many maritime organizations tell their employees not to say anything.
Very True! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
People do not realize the physics behind the mass of the ship, the speed and the length of area it needs to stop!
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Oh come on it’s only 100K tons going 9mph, if they had a few concrete pillars, they would have been able to stop the ship dead in its tracks. /s
Or at least deflect it.@@qwerty112311
@@qwerty112311Thats the most dumbass statement I've read so far.
Hay Tim thanks for your clear and consistent answers, that said what’s happening with your current barge?
My dad was not a tugboat captain or crew member, but he was an Merchant Navy engineer and he said the most risky time for a ship , much like an airliner, it at the start and end of a voyage when they are running slow and when there is a lot of activity.Tugboats reduce risk at these crucial points, as do Pilots and navigation technologies, but they don’t remove risk. A major failure in something like propulsion or steering for example during these high risk times is always going to lead to a major problem. Thanks for your excellent channel information, presented straight-forwardly and with knowledge and no BS! Liked and subscribed.
Apparently most car collusions happen within 5km (miles) from people's houses. Luckily we don't know wasn't waiting.
Thank you very much! CUOTO
@@hendrickswart4122 i;ve heard that a lot as well. when people are in there neighbourhood area they get complacent because everything is so familiar.
I dealt with an oil tanker at the power station in Sandwich Mass on the Cape Cod canal. The ship was trying to get underway with a stiff wind blowing directly onto the dock. (2) 3500HP tugs at full throttle could not pull the ship off of the dock. The physics at play are simply beyond belief.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
If that's the case, wtf were they allowed to be built? between your comment and the video's doubts about existing tugs cannot handle the job, then these ships should not be allowed in such tight waterways!
@@Ujeb08 Do you have any idea how many ships are in US ports on any given day? What you are suggesting is like taking all the cars in the US off of the road and only allowing them on one at a time and then only allowing that car to go 20 MPH because of the number of accidents. This was a freak, tragic accident that occurred amidst thousands of vessel movements daily. Why do you hear about a single plane crash and not the thousands of car accidents daily that kill 43 people EVERY SINGLE DAY in the US? Because they are more spectacular. Grow up.
@@ronobrien7187It's like I said to somebody elsewhere, those ideas that pop into our minds when we're sitting down and unburdening ourselves probably aren't the foolproof, commonsense solutions to all the world's problems that we take them to be. Details, details... I really only commented to say that I think we just just share the same ethnic handicap.
@@ronobrien7187Oh, and sometimes the mailman bites dog. If you're not familiar with the Windoc Bridge 11 collision, I recommend you looking the video up here on KZhead. It happened in a part of the world where I once spent a great deal of time.
"Why didn't the train just stop before hitting that car stuck on the tracks?" - People on the internet
😂😂 Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
They need to make trains that can swerve if they’re unable to stop.
And Biden commuted every day on those train tracks over that bridge…oh wait, it didn’t have tracks
Every accident of this magnitude is a “perfect storm of events” because if it wasn’t a perfect storm then the accident wouldn’t have happened.
Now there's a good point.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
It’s wild how many people think a single tug, or even 3, could have magically stopped that behemoth in under two minutes
That's okay, probably the same crowd who share social media hoaxes because "Even if it isn't true it still might help someone." Yes, that has actually been said to me. More than twice.
@@scottfw7169when people say that I always wonder if they are actually that stupid or if they're maliciously spreading false information. I think normally it's just extreme stupidity and ignorance.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
They didn’t need to stop them, just redirect them, which 3 tugs could have likely done.
@@Ranman1 the experts, and particularly Tug captains, say otherwise. In a 3 tug setup one would be astern. At 8 knots the port and starboard tug are nearly useless due to risk of capsizing, so the astern tug would act as a braking force. Keep in mind it’s only a 5,000hp tug vs a 55,000 hp ship. The tug astern would not be able to stop it in time. Additionally the port tug would have needed to move around to the opposite side, basically by the time it got in position the ship would have impacted the pier. That leaves the starboard tug, but at 8 knots it has very little lateral potential as most of its energy is being expended maintaining 8 knots. The minimal lateral force it could have applied to the ship is not even enough to counteract the hard over rider - let alone change the ships course. So, of the 3 theoretical tugs only one would be marginally useful but would not have altered the events. Additionally as myself and others have broken down the cost of accompanying every ship past the bay bridge would be astronomical - we’re talking hundreds of millions of dollars a year. I’ve broken down the math for each ship but didn’t extrapolate out for the annual port traffic. In short, the tug experts agree (as well as anyone that can do basic math) 2 or even 3 tugs could not have altered the outcome here given how close to the bridge the failure was and all the other factors that played a part (wind, current, opposing channel, etc etc) This ship impacted with the force of a fully fueled Saturn V rocket at launch. Think about that…..that absolutely massive rocket that took men to the moon focusing all its energy on a single bridge leg. It’s an incomprehensible force. Someone else calculated it’s the same energy as SIXTEEN fully fueled wide body let’s crashing into the same bridge all at once. There’s no way on earth 3 tugs can counteract a Saturn V rocket or 16 crashing Boeing 767s. The math is the math. The core problem here is similar to the Titanic - by the time the iceberg was spotted it was too late to stop the ship because she was going too fast. The cards had been dealt. Final thought, let’s pretend for a minute the ship didn’t lose power - the only thing that failed was the rudder and it went hard over. EVEN IF they had immediately worked to put the engine in reverse aka crash stop they would not have come close to stopping as a ship like this under the best circumstances takes over a mile to stop in an emergency. Because the engine and propeller are directly linked the shaft and main engine most be stopped so they can then be put in reverse. TLDR, this massive ship with a 55,000 horsepower engine could not have stopped in time. It’s common sense that a 5,000hp tug is not more powerful when it’s literally tiny compared to a fully loaded cargo ship. The math doesn’t lie. It’s like you’re saying a human has the power to stop a car going 80mph with their bare hands.
Just checked Wikipedia, MV Dali is actually 50% heavier than a carrier.
I was thinking the same thing when he mentioned it...I was waiting for Tim to say the Dali is way heavier when loaded......
I didn't want to stretch the example out more than it was needed. But yes! You are absolutely correct! Thank you for watching. CUOTO
The Dali as 107,000 tons. A carrier is just over 100,000 tons.
Tim - Came here on Sal's recommendation. Your last two videos are spot on - will have to go back and learn more. You are 100% correct that many people react emotionally and often don't know what they are talking about. I don't know squat about driving a ship - have enough trouble with my canoe and row boat. But I'm a retired mechanical engineer (worked in aerospace) and Army combat engineer (so I slept at a Holiday Inn last night when it comes to bridge design). People just don't understand all the physics/mechanics of the issue here - and you do a great job explaining in the common sense way with your years of practical knowledge. Great job. The best decisions are made after a good technical analysis (NTSB and the Coast Guard are good at this) when not only the technical experts but those with practical experience help craft the solution. We have to live in the real world - with it's million shades of gray and very little black and white. Thanks for the great explanations - needed so badly in times like this.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
I have been preaching the shades of gray for a long time with little success. All I get is "if you just_____" it will a work perfectly.
You mean, Sal, the "expert" who's never willing to see the hand of intell-agencies behind anything?
I thought you explained things nicely the first time. Now, as then, you make sense. Your experience is appreciated.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
My two cents. I'm a retired Chief Engineer with 45 years as a sailing engineer in the maritime industry. From the time the ship left the dock to the time it had passed the bridge there should have been (at least) two adequately sized tugs to assist the ship. The ship should haven been traveling at the slowest speed possible so that both the tugs and the bow and stern thrusters would have been effective. After passing the bridge then the tugs stand by until needed. If there is an operating mishap then the Captain decides if the ship needs to return. It takes longer to do it this way and it all costs more. There's an old saying that if you think safety is expensive, try an accident.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Tim, you were very clear the first time. I live in the SF Bay area, and they enhanced the protection around area bridges after an incident in the bay. Escort tugs are required in the bay for some traffic, but they only escort to facilitate response to emergency. What I find is that the design of the protection of the bridge was not update as the ships were made larger, but it may not have mattered.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
AFAIK on SF Bay a tug leashed to the stern is only required on tankers. Tugs aren't needed because once underway the ships have no trouble steering under the bridges. The speed limit for ships is 15kts through the water though they're usually a bit slower than that.
@@lance31415 thanks for the clarity, I have been riding ferries and my sail boat on the bay for years and just reporting on what I see going on. I did not notice that thy are tied to the tankers will have to pay more attention, thanks again
You were perfectly clear Capt! I don't see what their problem is. SUOTO
I took the sunset tour of Alcatraz, under the Golden Gate and back into Sausilito. Those cassions around the towers are huge but I could see a big container ship running atop them. I hope they reinforced it. You never think that something that large will come near those towers.. at most a ferry or a barge and it wasn’t until a couple of days ago that I gave it any thought.
Tim, you hit the nail on the head the first time, and this follow-up just ices the cake. CUOTO, Ed
Thank you very much Ed! CUOTO
If you know about tractor tugs, a heavy tug, designed for escort, would not have been used to "slow the ship down", it would have been put out to starboard indirect, acting as a rudder to turn the ship to port. This would have been very effective, admittedly difficult for the tug at 8 knots, but would have at the very least, kept the ship on her original course and prevented her drift to starboard, thereby avoiding the collision with the bridge.
I run a 6000 HP tractor escort tug in Eastern Canada and have been doing so for many years so am not just talking through my hat..
Isn’t that one of the main purposes of an escort tug, steering the ship if it needs help or something happens.
Thank you for watching. CUOTO
Tim ... I completely agree with what your saying. I work up in Alaska on one of the most powerful escort tugs in the world (Nearly 14,000 HP) We escort Super Tankers out of the Port of Valdez that are 1000 feet long and draft up to 50 feet at nearly if not more tonnage than the Dali. We routinely practice bringing these ships to a stop during drills at 6 knots and it takes every bit of our 14,000 HP to do it. So with that being said this is not a standard tug and the cost of buying, maintaining and crewing a large escort tug like the one i'm on would be impossible. I also agree with you on the fact that something will be done regulation wise .... better bridge protection (Dolphins) etc.. example would be the Tampa Bay Skyway Bridge. After that accident in 1980. and the protections in place afterwards .
💯!! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Probably could have prevented the Exxon Valdez disaster if you were around back then?
Yep! Just like Tim says… after a major accident regulation comes along. We have 5 Escort Tugs and (4)6000 HP general purpose Tugs and handle on average about 7 tankers per week. Sometimes more.. I couldn’t imagine the number of escort tugboats that would be required to safely escort the volume of shipping that comes in and out of that port and the distance it would take for them to travel to the Sea Buoy …. as Tim said there are more than just one bridge on the way out of town. We escort the oil tankers approximately 62 miles to sea and that normally takes around 14 hours for the round-trip if the weather is perfect.
How far do you travel before stopping? Curious and thanks in advance.
@@timpetta2974 It’s about 132 miles round trip. Average 10 knots . So with the actual Undocking Maneuvers about 15-16 hours for the whole evolution. That’s with good weather
I get it! You've explained with a very clear understanding what happened! I am a retired railroad engineer (BNSF). All that weight behind me, some 80,000 tons, will not stop! It feels exactly like hitting the brakes of your car on ice! Nothing happens!
I love watching ‘the general public’ being interviewed after a level Xing accident saying, “I waved at the train to stop, but it didn’t!” I’ve even been asked why the train didn’t swerve! 😳😂
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
You were very clear in the first video. I appreciate your perspective. I drive a truck taking containers from the port up in Philly. I don’t think the average person can really grasp the size & weight of cargo vessels. It was an accident. Unfortunately we live in a “blame somebody” society and people want their pound of flesh!
💯!! Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Good video. I worked for APL(American President Lines Ltd.) and later Maersk as a 2nd officer. All I can say is, where was all this talent when we needed them! Something tragic like this happens then everybody is an Unlimited Tonnage Master!
😂😂😂😂😂 💯!!!!!! Truth!!!!! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Tim, my uncle was a tugboat deckhand over 60 years ago on the Delaware River. The ships were definitely smaller, mostly oil tankers where he worked.
Woohoo! We found one! 😂 Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Yea great lots of laughts who was that masked man !
Dear Tim, let there be no mistake you were Crystal clear in your first video. Those who listen got it and those who don’t didn’t. Keep doing what you’re doing and let’s not worry so much about those who don’t or choose not to listen.
Thank you very much! CUOTO
I really appreciate your expertise on the tugboat situation. I hope the politicians pay attention to you before making new laws!
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
everyone is a Monday morning quarterback
It’s all bullshit the politicians introduce bills to they say improve a issue but by the time they finish bullshitting we are all tired of hearing it and all they do is eat up time till there re-election maybe
@@richardhiggins9856exactly these people never do videos if there's never an accident how come they don't talk about this before the accident
Good to have a professional give an explaination to why.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Been here for a while .. @@TimBatSea
There were 2 tugs in service at the time, to nudge ships from the dock and position them to get to the channel under the bridge. After moving the Dali from dock to channel position, they then went to do the same for another ship. The extremely rare occurance of the Dali power failure was probably part of the calculation of risk in not having tugs accompany every ship to get safely under the bridge.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
And yet, according to the Box audio recorder line by line, one of the several last things that the Pilot or Junior Pilot did was call the tug boats back.
@@revizionaryenterprises9655In a desperate attempt to avoid disaster, they tried anything and everything
@@revizionaryenterprises9655 You want all available assets when things go wrong. Even for recovery.
You saying you are not a structural engineer reminds me of what my 2nd engineer once told me when I was a cadet: An architect can build a bridge, and if it collapses he can tell you exactly why it happened. But if a (maritime) engineer builds a bridge it will last a hundred years, and he won't know why .
😂😂😂 💯Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
I can totally understand the frustration.... sometimes I feel that the lesser we speak our opinion the better... Thank you for your wonderful explanation in regards to Tug operations Tugs - heavy duty Mules Ships - Horses
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Very sensible video, no wonder Sal recommended that his subscribers give you a listen. When I first saw his video it occurred to me immediately that when the bridge was designed, a 6,000 TEU containership was huge. This one was 10,000 TEU and that has to matter when maneuvering it out of harbor.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Tim you make absolute perfect sense. Unfortunately, once the politicians get involved it will turn into a cluster...
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Tim, your commentary in the previous video was clear, concise and sensible. I appreciate your insight, honesty and wisdom. People can be stupid. You don't have to stoop down to them!
Thank you. I appreciate that. CUOTO
Your thoughts are dead on. I know you mentioned the conservation of energy etc. but the thing is that so many people do not understand that when you’ve got 95,000 tons moving at 7 kn the amount of energy behind that mass of ship is staggering absolutely staggering. As you mentioned, and so many of your videos when you’re docking a barge, you talk often about the momentum that you’re carrying and I think people don’t get that this crazy thing is so huge and the mask is so gigantic that the energy is just staggering and there absolutely is nothing. I don’t think if you had eight tugs on their eight tractor tugs, I think all you could’ve done was slow it down, but I don’t know why people Don’t understand it maybe they never took high school physics I don’t know but it’s all about physics and you explained that pretty well. thanks for doing these videos. I really find them interesting and yes IM a retired tugboat captain, so there you go I didn’t have tags as big as yours but anyway.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel Cap. CUOTO
Too many "Armchair Mariners"
Agreed 💯. Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
They think that spending hours everyday tugging themselves to the internet makes them tugging experts.
Tim is the guy I trust in regard to Tugs and he stays in his lane. I think he's just mad because that big 4200 with the nice tinted window shades in hauled out right now:) I live near the Columbia river where river pilots steer ships all day and night with no tugs.
💯!!!! Guilty as charged! 😂 Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Your original video was very correct and easily understood. The world is full of “don’t confuse me with facts, I know better”. Cheers my friend. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
😂😂😂 Thank you very much for that. CUOTO
Your emphatic, precise and concise, factual comments, surely, did enlighten those in need. It's all about controlling the MASS of a fully loaded large container ship, once it has achieved significant momentum in a direction that has low drag thru the water. In days long past, I was stationed over 2 years on USN yard tugboats in Subic Bay, Philippines. The largest was the USN YTB-794. Its main engine was rated a mere 2000 HP @ 900 RPM. The cargo ships, as I believe we called them then, that these harbor tugs stood-by for and assisted when directed by the pilot onboard, could push us around and leave us in their wake. We were along side, just to assist a willing cargo ship. Likewise with those earlier somewhat lighter USN aircraft carriers, that we assisted to enter, dock, leave port, and keep well moored at their berth, during high wind weather.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Well done Tim! I always say to my wife, we can discuss things, but until we have all the data there isn't much point. Casual Navigation did a video about tugs and at the speed the ship had reached if the tugs had had lines attached they would be in extreme danger of being capsized. The ship, as you indicate, had to travel at that speed or it would not have had steerage way. There is the point that if you put something where a ship can hit it then sooner or later it will. Most of the big bridges in UK are suspension, and the piers are well out of the way.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
I have been working in NY Harbor on different vessels from high speed ferries to dinner boats to excursion boats for the last 20 yrs. I can honestly say that there is no worst feeling in the bridge than having your vessel go completely dark while underway making way. Much respect Capt, agree with everything you explained or tried too ( good luck with that lol ). Thank you and keep them coming.
Thank you very much for watching Eddie! CUOTO
Hey Capt. - Your first video was great - appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions in the first video. Funny but one of my landlubber friends posed this question to me when we were discussing your video and reply. He said "The tugboat captain is right, but if the tugboat suffers a mechanical failure, then wouldn't the same accident happen anyway?" Well, that was a comment that made me rethink the scenario again! Thanks again for your time and lending your experience and knowledge to this landlubber - I have learned a lot from this horrible accident and aftermath.
Thank you for watching. But we have the engines for just that reason. Well, one if the reasons. CUOTO
Dear Gentleman, Thank you from a little old Lady of White-haired Wisdom. I am so sorry individuals raked their talons across you. I am confident that most of those may have never in their lives been in water other than their bath or a swimming pool. One should imagine for a moment treading water and trying to move a floating elephant or trying to direct the slide on ice of a semi in your bare feet. Not logically in the realm of successful outcome, and one could drown or fall and break your neck trying. Thank you for the service of you & your family in it’s part that I have the luxury of puttering to any shop, store or pharmacy and I can purchase what I need without having to make it myself or do without. Thank you for facts, truth and courage to say them. Blessings .
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
I totally agree Tim.I think most people don’t even understand what it takes just to slow these ships down or just move them. To me It was nothing more than an accident and sometimes they just can’t be avoided.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
From someone who's grandfather had a Master of western rivers and my uncle two cousins and myself. I love your insight to the blue water life.
Thank you very much Larry! CUOTO
I have read many comments in your last video and I was surprised because I didn't read any conspiracies affirmations like in most channels. I was one who wondered about the lack of tug boats but I thought it was mandatory. Later I made a search and I found out that it depends of the port and there's no international regulations about them. Thanks for the info. I have learned stuff I didn't know.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Even as a 30ft sailboat "captain", I understood right off what kind of a situation they were in. I didn't really get the propwalk thing when I was using a cabin cruiser powered by an outboard, but sailboat? oh yeah, whole new thing. Propwalk _is_ my "stern thruster".... but it only works one way.... Even in the smallest boat though, shut down the power and your heading changes... you look up and you are facing a different direction. Someone who has driven a car or truck or bus or semi.... but never been in boat.... you can say anything you want, they will never get it. People are too used to total control. Anyway, have a good one. I have a lot of respect for our commercial captains watching your show.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Three of the hardest words for people to say are I don’t know, thank you for being humble and intelligent enough to say those three words and I appreciate you for sharing your knowledge and insight.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Dalí had 6-12 million newtons of energy in the vector towards the bridge. The equivalent of the Saturn 5 rocket at full burn. No tug was going to stop the Dali.
I also read it's the equivalent of 150kg of high explosive hitting the bridge pier.
💯!! Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
I agree with your math, however I do have a question. If tugs were adjacent to the vessel at the moment it deviated from the center of channel, would the tug have sufficient effect to keep the ship centered.
It isn't about stopping...it's guiding the direction.
@@johnduffy532A tug couldn't have "guided" the ship. The problem is the ship was going 7 knots. If a tug hit the side of the ship and pushed, the tug would suddenly be going 7 knots sideways and tug boats don't do well at 7 knots going sideways. If it tried pulling, the same thing happens. No matter how you hook them together, it isn't
I understood everything you said as far as the fender dolphin subject. pretty sure when the bridge was built there were not million pound plus ships
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Acceptable risk and practicality of operations is what it comes to. When the WTC was first bombed (I think 1993), it took considerable damage but still stood. The executive manager at that time said the building structure was like a web, and could withstand a plane hitting it. What wasn't known was that airliners would someday be doubled in size, and we all know how that turned out. The new WTC has a different constuction. I ain't no bridge builder, but I do know something of truss design. Strong, light weigh structures, but if one section is compromised, the entire structure is weakened (Volunteer FD) only learned of this when a roof collapsed with only light smoke showing. The fire was hidden. Trusses failed, lost two friends.That bridge to my eye is a truss design, and apparently built when ships were about half the size of today's ship. Light weight bridge design, much heavier ships, proverbial accident waiting to happen.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
My father was a deck hand for the Bronx Towing Company before I was born. I only know it was between 1962 to around 1968. He told me some stories. Like he worked 10 days on and 10 days off. They pushed barges full of sand to build WTC. Lastly he told me they had a cook onboard. The mates would take turns deciding what desert to have and my dad always pick bread pudding.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Tim I thank you for your explanation, I understood your input the first time. Unfortunately people want to argue all the time for no reason.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
I drive an 18 wheeler for a living. I am baffled at the number of people who don't understand the laws of physics.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Thank you so much for this set of videos! I have never seen that perspective from the channel and I have a new appreciation of what you have to work with. I also want to be thoughtful in my understanding of what happen in Baltimore and definitely not rush to judgement. I thank you for the education I gained in watching your channel and I hope more folks educate themselves so that we can stop with all the crazy speculation and strive to get the facts. Keep up the great work and I look forward to seeing more in the future!
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
I rarely post any comments, but wanted to say that my respect for you and your experience greatly increased after watching this and the previous video. Most folks want to just get in on the action and spout off opinions on subjects they have no expertise in and argue with those who do know their stuff. You offered commentary on what you know and stayed out of things you are not expert in. It is greatly appreciated and makes your comments vastly more credible than most out there. Thanks for the sanity.
Thank you very much for that! I appreciate it! CUOTO
Great Channel - I am a retired Ship Pilot serving in Texas for 38 years. A deployed stern tractor tug can make a difference ! And can provide a huge lever arm when deployed over the stern. The problem that needs to be solved is not stopping but attempting to control heading Your previous video correctly stated tugs positioned on the bows are ineffective @ higher speeds- But deployed tugs over the stern have a exponentially longer lever arm and as the pivot point moves forward they become more effective. Escort tugs can be stationed and picked up @ critical points for safe transit insurance and mitigate risk. Its our infrastructure +
I have asked this elsewhere and it’s a genuine question. If you had an escort tug, connected astern, would it have had the manoeuvring room to be of assistance? By this I mean depth of water out of the channel and the close at hand presence of the dolphins protecting the HV power pylons?
@@DB-thats-me I won't speak for DB, but I'm a 25 year Senior Deck Officer. Escort Tugs running alongside the ship would have been useless. As Tim said, the tugs are already getting close to their max speed so they'd have to use most of their propulsion just to keep up with the ship. Any pushing power would have been greatly reduced. Now a tether tug is another story. Yes, there was enough room for any tether tug to operate behind the ship. All ships have a heavy duty choke on the stern for this purpose. That tethered tug could have assisted in two ways. They could either, back down trying to slow the ship or push ahead and try to steer the ship. I've actually seen both of these scenarios in action. By backing down to try to slow/stop the ship, this could have given the ship's bridge team more time for decision making. With more time, they might have decided to ground her. But, there was no way they were going to stop that ship in time. One of our Captains decided to ground his ship in the Houston ship channel after they lost power. The Houston Ship Channel is notorious for being very narrow. In fact, ship's going in opposite directions have to do a maneuver called the 'Texas Chicken' to pass each other. Since he was unable to perform that maneuver, he took her outside the channel and ran her aground. Or, the tether tug could have been on a short tether and in an emergency, they could push against the stern of the ship and essentially act as the ship's rudder. But, as Tim said, any tug would have been close to its top speed. So how effective would they have been at that speed is the question. I hope this answers your question.
The main problem is that escort tugs can't do anything quickly to a 100,000 ton ship that's moving at 9 knots. That's not what they're designed to do. They're designed to nudge ships in and out berths in and out of the channel and point the ship in the right direction. When leaving berths and put into the channel, the ship then fires up its engines and gets sufficient speed to have rudder authority, at which point it's on its own. Those speeds are beyond the effective speed of a tugboat, meaning that you'd have to move the ship through the channel much slower for tugboats to have any purpose.
@@MrMinnesotaMac yup I’m aware of these manoeuvres, including the Texas Chicken, but it wasn’t the one I was thinking of. I’ll describe it because everywhere seem have a different name for it. It’s where a specifically designed escort tug, tethered through the stern midship fairlead, ‘drives’ out, perpendicular to the stern thus entering the indirect towing position. There’s a great post from 10years ago of a tug ‘washing the deck’ as they aggressively enter the position. I suspect, even if this was utilised, the heading might be altered but the COG would remain unchanged. Hitting the pier on the port quarter. Again, worst time, worst place, worst outcome. Thank you for your time. 👍
@@DB-thats-methe answer is subjective- but with no assist the answer is collision I think there is a very real possibility a minor course correction @ 1st blackout could make a difference
I just stumbled upon your channel for the last 2 videos. I totally understand where you are coming from. I am a railroad engineer and know how momentum and stopping works, just on a different level. Also, my father was a Radio Officer, with his last permanent assignment being on the MV Sealand Quality IMO 8212697 before they abolished the position of Radio Officer. I can't believe the size of these new ships. I thought his Panamax Container ship was huge at 4258 TEU. This ship made that thing look small. As for the bumpers/dolphins or whatever you want to call it, the lack of protection on this bridge is what shocked me most. I am by far no expert, but after the Sunshine Skyway incident, I would have thought a bridge like this would have something retrofitted.
Dali is just about the same size as his - Panamax. There are container ships over three times that size.
@@richardreid6377 The Dali is Neopanamax, which is for the new locks that began operation in 2016. My dad's old ship was the old Panamax. Dali is approx 10,000 TEU compared to my fathers 4258. The Mari also weights about 40,000 tons more empty than the Quality. Most pics I see of my dad's boat, containers are stacked 4 high at MOST over the deck. I see some pics of the Dali where they are stacked 7 high. Physical size, Dali is about 10 meters longer and 16 meters wider.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
*Tim, I recently found your channel through the good man Sal.... Love your channel so far. Been watching a bunch of your videos, from these ones back to your older ones. Thanks for all the work you do.* *I am born & raised here in Baltimore. Seeing the Key Bridge gone, is still unbelievable. This time last year, I was driving over the Key Bridge up to 4 times a day for work. Insane to see it gone. Thanks for your updates.*
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel Brandon. CUOTO
Amen Tim!! Keep up the great work my friend. I love your input and responses! Keep up the great work!!
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
My great grandfather (who was NOT a tugboat captain) use to say "opinions are like a-holes, everyone's got one and they all stink. In other news, if you make and buy products in the USA you wouldn't need massive container ships.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Tim I went to school with a kid who's father was the Ft. Pierce Fl's tug and pilot captain. I had the pleasure of riding with them a few times as a young teenager. With that being said if you ever have any questions feel free to give me a shout anytime. I really did get to ride a few times in the mid 70's and I really don't have a clue how much it takes to push or stop a huge ship. I was just poking fun at everyone for their (EXPERT) opinions. Thanks for sharing all the great videos. P.S. sounds like some of the comments had your blood pressure up a little. Thanks again.
😂😂😂😂😂 Thank you very much for that! CUOTO
Thanks for all the great coverage Tim. It seems like this is one of the more difficult videos for a creator to respond to his viewer's expressions and opinions. You've done a very very creditable job and we're proud of you my friend. Thank you. James.
Thank you very much for watching and supporting the channel James! CUOTO
You can only tell people on here what you know for real. I know from my past experience running my shrimp boats that many shrimp boats fished in the Houston ship channel and I tried it a few times. Just the tugs and barges are huge compared to all most all of the shrimp boats. The wind tide and traffic is a nightmare and I couldn't justify the risk to my nerves and equipment. The ships that fit the Houston channel are not anywhere near the size of the Dali. I don't know of any times that there were collisions with the shrimp boats, but there were many close calls. Tugs are not the answer. Bridge protection is the only thing that might help and it will be very expensive. We all learn from people like you and Sal and it makes us all feel better when we get to express our thoughts and feelings. I kind of fear that our freedom to express ourselves is being threatened more everyday. Thanks for helping us to understand.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Tim, thanks for the follow up video! PS - Had to laugh when you mentioned paper radar trace track recording on the previous video. Too funny, my destroyer did that during “Sea and Anchor” detail as we entered ports in the 1970s PS2 - Looks like you need to have an MIT professor as a guest to explain force and mass.
💯!! Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Got ya fine Capt.. very clear first video. I'm a tow boat pilot on western rivers.. in 46 years I've not seen it all, I've seen a lot.. you're right, just as the Exxon Valdez brought opa 90, the sunset limited in mobile brought in radar in endorsement and other things will bring on new requirements no doubt.. glad I came across you.. thanks Capt.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
For me the tugboat theory comes under the same "what if" category as what if the engine had run for 4 seconds longer - you pick a number! A few more seconds would have turned the ship a little more and missed the bridge. Or maybe if the engine had quit a few seconds sooner? But that day life didn't turn out that way. Keep giving us the common sense and the benefit of your considerable knowledge. Thank You. btw my father grew up on a farm in NH.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Excellent viewpoints and analogies on the whole nine yards Tim.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
The frustrating thing for me is that I've already seen one commentator leap to the conclusion that it was terrorism. And, I have a friend who's on board with that opinion. I can't stand it. These people won't wait for evidence, and I'm afraid that they won't believe it when it shows up if it doesn't match their preconceptions. Anyway, thank you for looking at this from a common-sense perspective. One thing that occurs to me is that coming into or leaving port or during storms are the 3 times that the vessel undergoes numerous manipulations of the controls, and accelerations, not to mention shifting fuel sources and the bringing online of the requisite set of fuel filters. So I've got to think that's exactly when ship systems are most likely to fail. M.V. Bright Field comes to mind. BTW, that's also my personal experience. I was docking a 28' sailboat on a flat pier into a space maybe 38-40' long. I was coasting in the last few feet only just fast enough to maintain steerage. I came in at a fairly steep angle and cut the rudder hard so that the turn would kill as much speed as possible. That left me with maybe 1 knot of way on. I put the engine into reverse to kill the remaining way ... and the linkage snapped. No reverse available. Between me and the dockmaster we got her stopped. I still have the scar on my wrist from the cut I got leaping for the rail to fend off. No coincidence, really. If it was going to snap, that was when it was getting used. That ain't a conspiracy.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
We live in a time when clear, rational thinking is *very* unpopular. Your opinion as somebody who's actually been in charge of moving some kind of vessel is just as good as mine as just some random guy from the internet. Why? Because feelings... Feelings don't really keep bridges from being taken out, do they?
Hi Tim, thanks for you channel. I think the biggest thing people are missing is that it is impossible for a tug to pull any direction other than forwards or backwards when the ship is moving at 7 knots. If the tug tries to get sideways, the ship is going to drag the tug sideways and the crew on the tug are going to have a bad day. About the only thing that a tug could try to do is to stop the ship. But as you note, the ship's engine is something over 50,000 hp, an order of magnitude more than the biggest tug boats. BTW: The equation you're looking for is E=1/2mv2. That's from Newton.
Check out what an azimuth drive tug can Do- They can thrust laterally absoultely
Thank you! And thank you for watching. CUOTO
@@johng.gunning4913Can the azimuth handle being pointed at a right angle to a 7 knot progress? I would expect a Voith Schneider Propeller might be the better choice.
So good to hear somebody talk sense. Keep it going captain.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Thank you for putting the information in terms of physics. Drivers of cars ignore that information and they are only in a 1 ton car and crash all the time. What you are doing with your Tug is levels of magnitude above what we experience in our day to day lives.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
I decked for a short while on my brother in law's 1000 HP, 65' log tug in Puget Sound during the early 90's. It always amazed me how the tug and tow was almost out of control at all times, due to the tide and wind. It seemed like it was a controlled crash, trying to navigate with the amount of mass we were towing (100's of truckloads of Douglas fir or hemlock logs). Our tow had to navigate the Tacoma Narrows, which means we had to go under the Tacoma Narrows Bridge (at the time there was only one bridge, now there are two, side by side). It was amazing what the current would do to us and our tow. Though the bridge columns were spaced far enough apart that the tow could go under the bridge totally crosswise to the channel and fit, it always seemed that the bridge columns were like a magnet, pulling the tug and tow toward them. Again, a controlled crash, at all times. The tug and captain/crew can only due so much against the physics in play.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
@11:50 - Some in aviation would call this "The Swiss Cheese" model.
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9:00 Not an Engineer, and also not a Physicist: The formula you may have meant to invoke is "momentum", which is p = mv, or more likely "kinetic energy" KE = 1/2 m v², both unrelated to Einstein's more famous equation.
You are correct. I misspoke. Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thank you Capt. Tim for not only your expertise and experience in your field but your common sense and humanity . I’ll say I’m by no means a Tug Boat “ expert” nor do I pretend to know anything about this industry. Literally came across Sal’s channel last night and his reporting/education on the Dali and then yours … one of my questions is this. Do you think in the future Tugs will be engineered or rather built to account for these massive ships that are the norm in the shipping industries of today? Do you even think it’s needed . When you spoke about even if there had been a huge tractor tug assisting the Dali( my apologies if I used the wrong name) but a Tug with the working power such as one of them would not in probability have had too much of an effect ultimately in the tragic trajectory of the Dali - made me wonder if that was an area that hasn’t been able to keep up with the growing size of these shipping vessels . I can only relate it to what I know ( retired career FF) the need for increased pump size , increased GPM , LDH, manpower, $$ etc to account for larger more diverse buildings populations etc. Again, thanks so much for trying to help those of us out here who actually want to listen to relevant information based upon or provided by people(s) with training, actual experience, facts, data, and common sense vs. conspiracy theorists so thank you again - be safe Capt!
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
We used to regularly handle Dali and ships slightly larger in our port in NZ and have proven that a single 70t bp ASD tug at the stern can steer a vessel of this size on simulators and on water practice drills and so could have kept Dali on track through the bridge at 7 to 8 knots. We escort all vessels through our narrow channels in our port to avoid accidents due to engine failure. I am a pilot of 32 years experience with over 12000 pilotages completed. Tug escorts definitely work.
Add to the simulation the bank effect from the splitting channel and the full astern order which turns the stern to port and let us know if a 100k vessel without propulsion can be steered through the bridge by one tug fast at CL aft or quarter. Each port has its own unique features and tricks. I witness very few pilots in the world keeping a tug fast at 8 kn or close to the tug’s max speed since is very dangerous for the tug. You know that if you don’t have speed its hard to turn or maintain the intended course. You need speed to steer the vessel without propulsion (for this size more than 11-12 kn). Tug escort without the lines fast is another thing and not a bad idea. A 70 t asd tug is not so common in the world, even it should be. You have nice port infrastructure and services in NZ.
Thank you for watching Cap! I don't doubt you. But I'm really trying to only speak about what I've done or seen. CUOTO
@@TimBatSea no problem Tim (my name is Dale - user name is my wife) we have done a lot of simulator work following a lost power incident with a fully loaded log ship a few years back and have had great results keeping the vessel in the channel with tug assist aft, we have also carried out real life drills by initiating and checking turns within our channel. We now escort almost every vessel through the tricky part of our pilotage. Our ASD tugs are not the perfect machine for this, tractor tugs or Voiths are more effective at speed due to the ability to make an indirect tow. I remember from my early days training someone pointed out to me why to use the tug aft when underway - ‘pivot point is well forward, that’s why they put the rudder at the stern!’ I agree with you in the fact that it’s definitely an added cost but when lives are at risk and massive massive infrastructure (bridges, terminals, moored vessels etc) it’s something authorities and port operators will need to address. Keep up the good work!
Just referencing your video now!
Thank you very much Dr Sal! CUOTO
Tim, I would pitch your expertise way above the ramblings of any armchair navigator. There are too many experts on Facebook who don't have a grasp of even the basics of physics. Never mind Einstein's law, there are many people who can't even weigh the correct ingredients to make bread.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
A KZheadr who only comments on things they know about - I wish that would catch on. Always a pleasure to find authentic and humble content amongst the dross.
Thank you very much for that. I've been taking a beating from people that don't even seem to have watched or listened to the video. I appreciate your kind words. CUOTO
I'm US Navy Retired. I appreciate your comments, you confirm what I have been saying to those who talk about the tugs. I'm amazed at how everyone is suddenly an expert on Shipboard electrical workings, emergency steering and ship handling. Again I two have been attacked, mostly for my comment "Let's wait and see what the investigation turns." I hear "I Don't trust the Government." I also have said that this will lead to some feel good legislation that really will not help. Again Thanks for your comments.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Everything you say makes perfect sense👍🏻 So don't be bothered by all the unreasonable comments 🙏🏻😅
Thank you very much Magnus. CUOTO
Why is then that every oil tanker entering a west coast port has an escort tug hanging on a line off its stern, maybe they can't stop the ship but they can steer it. Just like a 100lb waterskier can guide a speedboat with 100hp
Entering port, yes. Leaving port, as the dali was, is a different story. 2 tugs did move it out of dock, dali was up to speed, the tugs left, then dali lost steerage.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
I totally agree, it’s unrealistic. I am a sailor, so sailboats, not freighters or tugs, but the forces acting on vessel at sea are monumental. Currents and wind are real factors even for smaller ships. There was zero chance a tug was gonna stop that ship.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Great video Tim👍! And as always, thank you for your insight!
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Agreed, a whole bunch of nonsense "solutions" will need to be fended off (like "Tugs for everyone!") when all that is really needed and sensible is putting concrete or rock barriers in the water in front of the bridge supports to stop/ground/deflect any wayward vessels. This should be a priority infrastructure project for all ports now, not because such a billion-to-one accident will likely happen soon, but because this accident no doubt has nefarious actors scanning for vulnerable bridges,... hijacking a lightly crewed vessel when leaving/entering port would be a lot simpler than many of their other options, with potentially immense payoff. It's also the easiest remedy that has little impact on existing bridge/port operations
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
It's not about stopping the ship. If tugs can move a giant ship off the pier and into the main channel then they should be able to move it another half mile past the bridge until it gets under way and gains enough speed for steerage, seems way cheaper than putting up a new bridge. I saw a video where a captain said some harbors (Sydney) require this to protect critical structures.
At 7-8 knots, this ship had steerage way. The loss of power (and therefore loss of control) caused the problem. Tugs moving the ship past the bridge would be doing so at slower speed - longer transit times, more tugs required, more congestion. Far more cost effective (in terms of $, man hours, and general safety) to add updated protection to bridge piers around shipping channels. Scale matters. So does distance.
Don't be so sure. The suction effect from the channel combined with the wind on such a huge sail is immense. I'm sure the NTBS will find competent people to run a simulation and we'll see.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Thanks for producing both videos regarding the ship collision in Baltimore. I always appreciate hearing your thoughts on maritime issues. Keep up the good work.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Recently joined your channel. I appreciate your opinion and expertise in the tug Industry. Keep up the good work!
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Thanks for your channel and insights. I appreciate what you do!
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Thank you for all of the education over the years and your opinion as a subject matter expert on what the situation in Baltimore is looking like regarding tugs. Don’t let some of the commenters get to you. The majority of your followers get it.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thanks much, Tim. I found your video especially informative. Thanks for keeping at it.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thank you, Tim. Im totaly impressed. Good job .
Thank you very much for watching Larry. CUOTO
Thanks Cap, for once again providing insight, facts, and sharing your expertise!
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thanks for your insight and comments; spot on Tim!
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
That engine idling is the kind of background music that I like. Thanks.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
That Tampa FL bridge that a ship struck years ago and brought down the bridge, has now been rebuilt and has lots of new dolphins in front of the piers (concrete steel reinforced bollards) and fairly extensive bumper islands on the main piers. I am sure the new Key Bridge will have the same brand new extensive dolphins and bumper islands just like that new rebuilt Tampa bridge. As for the tugs, I hear you, once that near 1000’, 100K+ tons ginormous behemoth Dali container ship was on its way at 7 to 8 knots and lost power, two little tugs in a couple of minutes before the Dali struck the Key Bridge could do little to nothing to stop this collision. Thanks for clearing that up for this landlubber. I watched Sal’s last Tik-Tok vid on all the events as we (he) documented it and was taken back by how well trained and capable that Indian crew was, especially in the engine room. Hope they test the fuel in the tank used when the Dali lost power, I would like to know if it was up to snuff (snuff is a landlubbers techie term for good, fair or of poor quality).
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Great videos by you and Sal. Love your comment: "every one has been a tug boat captain"😂 well here in Denmark, apparently every one is a pilot. I have seen so many comments on the pilots not during their job: "how could this happen with two pilots on bord" and " they must have been playing cards" or "they were probably just drinking vodka with the captain". What they dont understand is that even 10 pilots would not make any difference, because the ship had a black out. But it is so easy to know everything from behind your keyboard 🤷🏼♂️ So thank you for bringing some common sense in to play.
💯!!!!! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thank you for your perspective. It read helped me understand the situation better. 😊
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Really enjoying your videos Tim… All the best from Delaware!
Thank you for watching. CUOTO
Thank you for your professional point of view.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO