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Why Do You Always Kill Gods in JRPGs?
If you've ever played a Japanese Role Playing Game, or JRPG, you've likely encountered this trope before -- why exactly is the final boss, or secret mastermind, always some kind of evil god? Is there a reason for this trope beyond the obvious? Why is the evil god often some kind of alien?
Let's take a very deep dive into Japanese history together, and figure out this mystery together. We will start with the roots of Japanese religion in Ancient China, move through the conflict-filled religious history of Japan, and then finally conceptualize a historical religious cycle now coming to a climax in the contemporary experiences of the Japanese people, as expressed through the medium of video games.
This is the first video I've made over an hour, and so there are a few hiccups in audio here and there! Please excuse this first experiment: I will strive to improve the quality for you, as more videos of this nature are released.
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Chapters:
00:00 - Spoiler Alert
00:17 - Intro, God-Slaying in JRPGs
02:28 - Sponsored by NordPass Business
03:43 - Intro, Pt. 2, Western Games vs. Eastern Games
05:02 - Roots of Japanese Religion in Ancient China; Immortality
11:14 - Japanese Religious History Introduction
14:32 - The Historical Cycle of Religious Conflict, Buddhism vs. the State
21:18 - The West Reaches Japan, the Shogunate vs. Westernization
26:06 - Forced Westernization and the Rise of State Shinto
35:17 - Kokka Shinto and its Consequences for Japan
38:13 - Intermission: Summary of Japanese Cycle of Religious History
40:30 - Modern Perception of Religion in Japan, A New Deity Arises
43:40 - The Postwar Economic Miracle, Rise of Keiretsu
45:58 - What is a Keiretsu, the Mistubishi-Shinra Example, the Peak of the Bubble Era
53:51 - The Collapse of the Japanese Economy, Intro to the Liberal Democratic Party of Japan
56:21 - The China-LDP Example
58:45 - The Struggle of Japanese Life in a Stagnant Economy: A Cruel Angel Investor's Thesis
01:06:15 - Intermission 2: The Miyazaki Transition, Summary of Japanese Experience as it Pertains to Cycle of Religious History
01:07:41 - Application of Context to Video Games, FF7 Case Study
01:10:13 - Other JRPGs as Case Studies
01:11:40 - Persona 5 as a Case Study (SERIOUS SPOILERS)
01:13:48 - Kirby as a Case Study, Reminder Not to Get Too Conspiracy-Minded
01:15:42 - Other Japanese Media as a Case Study, Godzilla, Dragon Ball Z, Transition into East v. West Discussion
01:18:20 - Eastern vs. Western Religious Context, With Regards to Trope; Cultivation vs. Apotheosis
01:21:52 - Why Do JRPGs Borrow From Some Western Religious Themes Then? Norse Religion, Jewish Mysticism, Christian Gnosticism
01:25:34 - Japan as a Canary in the Coal Mine for the West
01:27:34 - Conclusion
01:29:48 - Post-Credits Gag
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Additional Reading:
To Be Added
(The description is breaking the character limit and I need to work on it)
All 63 Japanese Prime Ministers Sing Baka Mitai:
• 歴代総理の駄目だね All 63 Japan...
World Bank Warns of 'Lost Decade' for Global Economic Potential
www.nytimes.com/2023/03/27/bu...
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The Track List
Intro - The Brink of Time, Chrono Trigger
NordPass - Hip Shop, Deltarune
Intro Pt. 2 - Yearnings of the Wind, Chrono Trigger [SILVA GUNNER]
Ancient China - Medieval Mo Li Hua, Civilization 6
Ctnd. - Corridors of Time, Chrono Trigger
Intro to Japanese History - Secret of the Forest (JP Mix), Chrono Trigger [SILVA GUNNER]
Religious Conflict Cycle - Lufia 2 Battle Theme, Lufia 2
Ctnd. - To Far Away Times, Chrono Trigger
West Reaches Japan - Wind Scene, Chrono Trigger
Ctnd. - Zeal Palace, Chrono Trigger
Forced Westernization - Rufus's Welcoming Ceremony, Final Fantasy VII
Ctnd. - The Promised Land Cycle of Souls, FFVII Remake
Ctnd. - Battle Theme, Octopath Traveler
Kokka Shinto - Singing Mountain, Chrono Trigger [SILVA GUNNER]
Yes, that's the Russian national anthem playing over the Russo-Japanese War! I can't believe nobody discovered my silly joke!
Intermission - The Trial, Chrono Trigger
Modern Perception - Shining Beacon of Civilization, FFVII Remake
Ctnd. - Lurking in the Darkness, FFVII Remake
Postwar Economic Miracle - Anxiety, FFVII Remake
Keiretsu Intro. - Shrina's Theme, FFVII Remake
[Out of Characters!]
(The description is breaking the character limit and I need to work on it)
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Subtitles by: James Hugh
(Thank you, James!)
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This video is extremely interesting. I very much enjoy that your going into the history of these because it seems nobody else shows this stuff on KZhead.
Apologies for getting some tonal whiplash going from "build yourself up to face the uncaring god" to immediately "Please offer money so I can continue to appease the uncaring god."
46:40 is the only issue I have, as you say that western business is not like japanese.... but your description of japanese business is very similar to the monopolies of the west Almost every company is owned by corporations that deal in the stock market such as blackrock - a lot of so called competitors are owned by the same parent company. nowhere is this more an issue than the news, where the money traces back to the same parent company, thus why they all sound so very similar and repeat the same talking points at the same exact time.
Finally a video that mentions it, so anyway my big dream for a RPG is that you reach a god level threat and he simply wipes your team with a snap, I need me some actual god like powers in this story to show despair, an example of that is the Bastard manga, when angels show up people get killed by their mere presence.
Hey, what's the song you used at 11:20 it sounds kinda familiar
Imagine a reverse JRPG made for Asian gods, where you play as an Asian style god, fighting Asian style demons and whatnot, and the final boss is a max level mortal JRPG party.
That would be playing as the villain though, right?
Final Fantasy VI Kefka Side
@@joshuasanderson7359 The party doesn't need to be the good guys
This is something I've wanted to see like The Turner Diaries, you play as Eric Turner fighting against the US government system, and at the end of the game you fight in a world war III style fight after bombing the pentagon...But you yourself plays the terrorist, or, you can play as the government official or police officer that has to upkeep the status of the government, aka the false god. And believe it or not the USA government is also as much of a false god as the corporations and the government of Japan. This is why I hate governments in general, especially the USA, Japan, and China.
@@joshuasanderson7359 there's lots of themes to explore with role reversal stories. we already have role reversal horror games such as Carion exploring the theme where you are the monster pursuing people. so why not a god?
Mf went through history, religion, philosophy, psychology, social commentary, and economics just to tell us about the origins of the funny video game trope and I am all for it
This video enlightened me to just how pervasive these themes are, like I knew slaying gods had to do with going against an unfair system but I never realized how common it was as a framing device. That being said I think it's low key kinda cool how such serious issues have resulted in badass final bosses 😂
This is actually how you explain the origins of tropes and similar things. It usually requires going deeper to understand the building blocks that make up an entire normalized thought process of a nation.
What you don't realize is that he made you learn history, religion, philosophy, psychology and sociology of Japan by using the context of funny video game trope. That's how you capture people's attention, instead of just saying that they should like these things because they're important, you show how they're important and useful.
Is Hollow Knight a JRPG? You kill a goddess in the end as a "secret" boss
@@candlewick8363 hollow knight is not an RPG, and even less of a jRPG since it's not japanese. But it's a metroidvania, a genre named after 2 japanese games. Some japanese / asian culture influence is hard to avoid
I’m surprised mainline Shin Megami Tensei wasn’t mentioned, it’s been the purest form of this phenomenon from the start, shame it doesn’t get the recognition it deserves
Wish I could like this more.
One might argue the gap between man and god(s) in SMT isn't that wide, seeing as the player's potential competes with any pantheon. Still worth a mention though.
True, but to be fair persona 5 is heavily discussed and I think that the god-killing in that is taken completely from its progenitor series. Perhaps Moonie is just more familiar with the Persona series.
Maybe too much blasphemy depicting YHVH and Lucifer...fuuuuusion I wonder if that sorta thing played a role in Persona becoming their more mainstream success.
In a lot of cases, smt has you kill god himself. Or something more powerful than him
As a Chinese with a strong interest in Japanese culture and language living in the US who has many Americans around me fantasizing Japan, I cannot appreciate this video enough. What you said, granted, won't be sufficient to cover all possible aspects of this gigantic, multifacaded societal economical cultural question, but it is still one of the best analyses i have seen here on KZhead on the topic. I thought i understood why killing gods is such a trope in JRPG and other forms of Japanese media, but turns out what you said in this video essay opened my eyes to so many new perspectives and factors i never even considered. Sir, you have outdone yourself, and many others. This video should be used by college classes as study material.
多謝, Shimo! I am so glad that you enjoyed the video, and found it insightful.
Yea, a lot of us Americans are the classic “thing in japan” meme
Killing gods are also very prominent in Chinese culture, also. Tho, the main different is that you have to become gods first to kill other gods. Unlike Japanese where mortal can destroy gods by their own power
agree!!
For the sake of improving your English, would you like me to correct your grammatical errors?
The "羅" in "神羅" also stands for "Rakshasa" who were devils and apparitions in Hindu mythology. Thus it's also possible to interpret "Shinra" into "devils posing as gods".
And the fact that Shinra plays God.
I'm hearing their theme whenever I hear their name.
I think it's a play on 森羅万象 (Shinrabanshou) as well, "All things in creation".
Localization has let us down. It's never easy, but leaving out all the details that get baked into the phrasing the way they do is just mutilation.
@@nathanlevesque7812 honestly, I'd be OK with translator's notes making a comeback. let the people who don't want to read em ignore em.
The other thing about Chinese mythology is that not only can people ascend to godhood, so can gods fall. Journey to the West in particular features a number of characters who once were gods and heavenly beings, but were cast down and reincarnated into mortal and/or monstrous forms as punishment for misdeeds. I think that is a big factor into how JRPG gods can die.
Greek mythology also has humans become gods, and certain select few of apocalyptic christian secondary scripts speak of mortals becoming higher than angels but lower than god Notable examples Heracles, Ariadne, Glaucus Enoch, Elijah
@@enzoforgets9456 true!
@@enzoforgets9456 He talks about that in the video, and the difference being in the west you are only granted Godhood by other Gods, not through your own deeds.
@@Tystolfo i mean if a god is the judge all id say both by another god AND because of ur deeds
@@enzoforgets9456 Yes but the point being you don't ascend to godhood by yourself, it's granted by already existing Gods.
This video made me realise that Yakuza 7 is *also* a JRPG about killing God... metaphorically, anyway, since your party doesn't physically kill them, and they are just two mortals. Basically, this game features two final bosses: an incredibly tough one (the mechanical final boss) and a very easy one, but with heavy personal stakes for our protagonist (the story's final boss). Both of these characters - a bloodthirsty yakuza who wants what he wants and won't stop at anything to get it, and an establishment figure with a seething hatred of everything your party represents (homeless people, sex workers, foreigners etc) - are untouchable gods within the narrative (the yakuza guy's last name is literally "heavenly child"), gods that Ichiban and his party, the ragtag band of those their society despises, are all too happy to smite. Such a great game!!
my girly-girl ass can't stop hearing enough great things about the Yakuza series. guess it's time to get started... you can only hear it so many times before you have to give in.
@@xXluluchanelXxI highly recommend the newest “Like a dragon” entries to the series because you can go in without knowing too much about the first 6 games.
1:17:41 they hit people over the head... and yet... and yet people miss the metaphors. I saw someone trying to claim The Outer Worlds wasn't a commentary on capitalism. But I guess to quote Carl Sagan : “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
Indeed. The Outer Worlds was more so a commentary on Extreme Capitalism. An ideology put to the extreme is more than likely always a bad thing.
This honestly reminds me of why isekai became so popular. I always asked myself "why not just make is normal fantasy". It's because it stems from a desire to be in a place where your seemingly useless abilities according to society, make you extremely if not the most useful person in the world. A good example that isn't too out there being "handyman in another world".
another reason it stem from depression on very high competitive circumstance,exploited at workplace, and society that pick on everthing from how they act or think
ah heck. this makes me realise that if done well isekai can be like a perfect exploration of the social model of disability (broadly speaking). but i havent watched (m)any and have not heard of one that really dives into such a thing
@Envy_May could you elaborate further? I myself am a fan of isekai, and want to try my hand in writing it.
Isakai is not a genre. It is a setup. And the simple truth is that it is a extremely simple setup. Having "fist out of water" character from real world, we don't really need shape his ties with the world. We do not need shape world at all. As because character is as ignorant as we, we may deliver literally everything pretending it is part of larger world. When writers made up thing on the flow. Because character would never question logic the world.
@@Envy_May social model of disability? It makes sense it doesn't, because even if they deny it, deeply, nobody wants to be disabled, and art is not about representation but about escapism. Log Horizon does this, a kid who's stuck in a wheelchair suddenly is trapped in this videogame and he is able to run again, so he finally feels useful and dependable again. The attractive of Isekai is that someone with talents that aren't appreciated in their world, or someone without any talents other than loving videogames are suddenly transported to a world where they can use those talents and they are very appreciated, or they are just given powers and hidden talents that they are able to exploit but the real gift for them is not the powers, but the possibility to change themselves and people to value who they are or who they become, real connections with people, which are extremely hard to get in japan.
I’m Japanese myself, and I have to say I really enjoyed this video. The amount of work and research put into this video is just outstanding. I can tell you, being Japanese, I actually never realized that JRPGs kill gods all the time. Which is of course, because I grew up finding that ever so natural. But now that you mention it, I can certainly agree with the idea that gods in JRPGs are representations of failed social systems. Gods aren't about what you want, or what should be; gods are about what are. You can't escape from the existence of a god. Even if you loathe the gods and wished they didn't exist, you have no choice but to live within the world - this prison - that those gods wove into existence. Your job, the clothes you wear, the food you eat, everything is a "product of god" (in many cases, literally), and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it for as long as you live. If this enemy were some abstract outside notion that we weren't dependent upon for survival, some giant monster would have done the job. But it just so happens that our greatest enemy is the one that feeds our mouths, and that is the basis of our paradoxical existence as obedient slaves of this unfathomable system that we never actually wished for, never built ourselves, but instead came from across the vast ocean, from a different universe altogether. Indeed, for us Japanese, our mortal enemy is the ground we step upon, the alien system surrounding our lives, and to represent that archnemesis, what more accurate can a term be than "god"? Of course, actually living in Japan, there are some parts of the video I found to be either incorrect, over-exaggerated, or outdated. (Not that it's actually possible for someone from abroad to make a one and hour-long video of any country's history and politics without making any mistakes. In fact, I find it superb how almost everything is so accurate.) Our abysmal working conditions are - finally - getting better. Though the problems do persist to this day, the government is at last starting to make changes in policies, and that is fueled by a younger generation that is much more reluctant to work overtime. You could argue this is because a majority of the young are now complete "social atheists'' - meaning, they don't believe in the system that is their god. They don't believe in capitalism anymore, they believe in nationalism even less, they've never believed in any religion whatsoever, and they only care about living their daily lives and improving their standards. Which, of course, makes working overtime for no pay rather unacceptable. Needless to say, this tendency among the young is a byproduct of all the failed "false gods" we had to endure through the decades. Living in Japan, and hearing news from abroad, I actually think the living standards in Japan are much better than that of many other countries, including the Western. All of us can go to the hospital and get medicine for absurdly low costs, we can sleep on the cheap train system everyday and never wake up to find your bag be stolen, the food is wonderful and overall inexpensive, and most importantly, we can enjoy all the JRPGs, Shonen Jump and tons of anime in its rich, untranslated full context. For all the flaws of our economy and social system, we generally still do live happy lives, and we're generally grateful to be born here. At least I am. That being said, no society is perfect, and where there are complaints, there must be a place to express them. If this was an age of turmoil and violence, that uncontrolled anger would erupt in the form of gunpowder and gasoline. It just so happens that our admittedly declining society is - at least as of now - peaceful enough to only allow a rebellion to go on in the harmless digital world of 0s and 1s, of swords and sorcery. As long as enough gods are killed in our computer screens, I can assure you, the actual gods that control us will never truly die.
I'm happy that working conditions are finally getting better. Societies always come to the bitter realization that without the support of their youth, they fizzle and die. In my country there's a saying that translates to "When the students rise, the world trembles" referring to how college students were a driving force of societal change here and many concessions had to be made because otherwise they would leave the country and offer their potential to competitor countries. So Japan slowly but surely treating their youth better is, at least, a first step which is if anything, worth being happy for.
Your second-language English is better than that of most native speakers I know, Jesus Christ. That was remarkably eloquent and well-structured. Need to get to work on my own studies.
This reinforces my desire to live in Japan.
What part of the video where incorrect?
@@fernandozavaletabustos205 he literally points it out, read the comment
Tldr : the reason you fight Gods in JRPGs is because it's an allegory for fighting against oppression and oppressive ideals. By slaying a God you are metaphorically freeing yourself from its oppression
Huh, we usually use dragons for that.
@@shadylampableTrue but God sounds more morbid and heretic. It has that delicious spicy flavor that makes it more appealing.
@@Lord_Sunqu also killing a god seems even cooler and more empowering
@@shadylampable Funny how dragons are usually shown as not-so-oppressive creatures that actually prefer to mind their own business. Gods, deities, and the like, however, are born off of and continue to leech on society.
The funniest part is now their new GOD(Money & Work) Is ruining their life.
This video is actually crazy to me, because last semester I did a presentation for my Japanese Religions class on depictions of deities in Japanese media, and I specifically dedicated a slide to the attack and dethrone God trope in JRPGs. This video, of course, an immensely better analysis than the surface level points I made for a 200 level class, but the double take I did seeing this come up in my reccomended was still enough to almost give me whiplash. Great video! It's the first one that I've watched from your channel and I'm excited to see what other content that you have to offer!
“How do you kill a god?” “You start at level 1…” That quote is gonna stick with me.
You use a chainsaw.
Ah yes. Fred Durst. The most infamous god slayer.
The answer is *tgm*
@@astranix0198 tgm?
Toggle God Mode.
I do nothing but consume video essays because I work 10 hour work shifts and need to fill them with something. This is the best one I have seen in MONTHS. Subscribed
Aite the ending just gave me shivers
This has honestly become one of my favorite videos on the site. Nowadays I'm well informed enough that most informative videos I watch tend to not be surprising to me. Informative, sure, but usually nothing revolutionary, perspective changing, etc. Sometimes they just repeat things I already know, fill in the gaps in my knowledge, or give context to topics I already have somewhat of a grasp on. Or introduce me to a new topic. But this one just blew me away. Of course I already have a very vague conception of the topic and some knowledge of Japanese history, as well as a good amount of JRPGs under my belt, but the way he presented all the information and how it completely upended my perspective on my favorite genre of games is just amazing. I'll never be able to see JRPGs the same again, and I love it. As a side note, I've always held a great interest in topics such as sociology, economics, geopolitics, and general anthropology, so perhaps that is part of the reason I love JRPGs even if I didn't realize their subtle message until now (and is also why my favorite JRPG series is the Trails series).
I work for over ten hours shift 💀
Yeah I never actually listen to a video game essay this is actually pretty good almost got lost in all the history but it was pretty good I finished it
@@arlekino0792 that channel only has reviews
Japanese educational system really reminds me of the Russian schools. Although there's a bigger emphasis on the homework, as it's basically defining the final grades you end up with. And you get absolutely buried under homework, there's simply not enough time in the day to do all of it even if you don't have any extracurriculars/tutoring (which you probably do btw) There are easier schools, but "Гимназии" which are like the prestigious ones, start gradually working you to the bone since middle school. High school is just unbearable, and I frequently found myself and my friends sleeping 2 hours a day or less just trying to keep up. What's worse is that the reward for all this work is only the ability to pursue a higher education, which translates to maybe getting a job in a country that's rapidly decaying anyways.
Honestly the more I listen the more the comparison between Russia and Japan rings true in many aspects, almost none of which are good
It has some terrifying aspect that you will have awful knowledge of subjects. Outdated, useless, misinterpreted or indoctrinated. The only safe place is hard science but let's be honest only a small percentage of people are able to do it. And it is not about will or something else.
The solution? Don't go to school. Ever. I graduated and I can say I wasted 12 years of my life.
@micahlindley7515 Yes, and don't get a job either. No prestigious job will hire the brilliant societal revolutionary, who refused to adhere to corrupt society and go to school, the unfair bastards.
Are you describing Russian schools here? If yes that's strange because my experience with an average Russian school was more or less okay, some stupid or emotionally unstable teachers from time to time but nothing especially hard or negative. I usually had at least 4-5 hours of free time after school and homework. Definitely not requiring us sleep less at any time. And I had mostly 4s and 5s in the yearly scores.
Man, you really got me at the end. I nearly burst into tears when you said "Where do you even start?" I new a lot of the stuff in this video having gotten a bachelors and masters in history, but to see all of it laid out like that was very cool. Look forward to watching more of your videos.
I've been a tutor in Japan for 7 years, and this is all sadly true. It's really horrible to see a kid start to lose hair from stress before they even get into middle school.
Such a toxic culture
@@ArnoldsKtm Yeah... but it doesn't *_*have*_* to be that way!
@@ArnoldsKtmyea and the American influence of capitalism made it even worse
@@abedmick2267well if you wanna go that way why don’t you go ask the residents of Nanjing what Japan does without American influence.
A kid losing their hair??? What the actual f***??? O.O
Dude you’re so multitalented. Almost an hour into the video and i’ve practically forgot that this was a video game discussion at all. The history here is fascinating and you present it so well. Not to mention the fast production of all this content. I was wondering why this was your longest video to make so far when you’ve so rapidly churned out others, but now you’ve dropped such a thoroughly researched and interestingly put together feature length video in such a comparatively short time. This is one of my new favorite channels on youtube. Now review the ace attorney games.
I’d be so down for an Ace Attorney video by Moon
I legit had to double check the title to make sure it didn't switch to a different video. Absolutely fantastic video. The amount of care and time that went into this is amazing.
Desperately need an attorney take on Ace Attorney SO MUCH.
There are so few video essays out there that feel like they truly warrant their length, and this is one of them. Everything was thorough yet brisk. Nothing was unnecessary, padded out, or glossed over. It's one of the few video essays where I've come out the other end feeling like it's brought something of value to my life. You make some excellent videos, and I can't wait to see what else you cover in the future.
I find myself playing a JRPG, starting the game, seeing our humble happy or serious protagonist and party members in the first either a quaint or a tense place, beating up the first weak enemy encounters, thinking to myself, "Wow, can't wait to defeat a god at the end."
Expected a silly video game essay, got an anthropological history lesson. This is legitimately amazing.
I know this is unrelated to the video, but may I ask, what is your profile picture?
@@pettyprincess3098 It’s a blend of the alchemical symbols for gold and silver.
@@solr313 ooh cool! Thanks :D
There's also a peculiar trope in Japanese media and Jrpg about the characters that refuse to die or allow the new age to dawn. The earliest I can think of is Yamada Fuutaro's cult novel "Makai Tenshou".
Xenoblade Chronicles 3 comes to mind as a recent example.
@@paaph8747 The whole Dark Souls + Sekiro + Elden Ring franchise is dealing with this theme. Sekiro even has a bunch of direct references to Yamada Fuutaro's novels.
Final Fantasy X with the Yevon Cult. It's literaly this.
@@itsjonesh Oh, yeah, certainly. Spira is iconic in that regard.
Refuse to allow a new age? Link the Fire?
As a historian, I must say you have really done a great job. Now I want to write my master thesis about this video.
While I enjoyed the hour long history lesson I was at first skeptical it would all be important to the explaining of the godslaying trope, but as soon as you started describing the villains of ff7 (shinra, jenova, sephiroth) I was blown away as to how all that knowledge and info completely contextualised the existence of each of those character/groups, great vid
A note about the name "Yaldabaoth", which the holy grail takes in P5: It comes from gnostic traditions and refers to the Abrahamic god, labeling them as an evil pretender to divinity. Since it refers to the Abrahamic god, it is alien to japan even though it is also shown woven into their zeitgeist.
P5 isn't particularly good as an example here because of how blunt and open it is with it's message
It's just light chaos heros vs Dark law.
@@512TheWolf512 Eh, they do literally state that he is a fake god + if you know the role all enemies are shadows and they aren't the real deal gods, the only one that actually is a proper god is Nyx and she's an alien no less.
@@thegamerfe8751 NYX and izanami aren't even mentioned in persona5. You're mixing games up here. Besides, yes, p5 is very literal, everything is explained like in a school lesson there.
It depends on the sect, but the most commonly mentioned form of gnosticism I found while researching was Christian gnosticism, in which Yahweh and the father of Jesus Christ are treated as two separate entities: Yahweh being the malevolent or ignorant god (Yaldabaoth, the demi-urge, or the creator god) of the old testament and Jesus Christ being the emissary of the higher unknowable god.
Just a correction for the Kirby section, Sakurai didn't direct any of Dream Land 2, 64, or Forgotten Land. The former two were directed by Shinichi Shimomura, and the latter by Shinya Kumazaki. Kumazaki is the person who has been directing the Kirby series in general since Super Star Ultra, and it's during this era that the series started being a lot more self-referential and expanding more on its themes and characters. Triple Deluxe and especially Planet Robobot have elements of this theme as well, Sectonia was corrupted by a well-meaning gift from Taranza, and I think the primary antagonist of Robobot speaks for itself.
I'd argue that Planet Robobot having the mega-conglomerate as a villain disproves the idea that the use of the trope is completely unpolitical or unintentionally political. Also Kumazaki has made reference to other religions in recent games too, like him saying the yellow parts of Magolor's design were inspired by the fact yellow was the colour of Judas Iscariot, the Betrayer, since Magolor also betrays you (and in the extra mode in Return to Dream Land DX Magolor fights a demonic apple tree with a huge nod to the Forbidden Fruit tree of Eden)
@@surprisedlobsta8543and the name of the theme that boss is called like a godkilling arrow!
@@surprisedlobsta8543 I think it's fair to say Kumazaki and potentially Shimomura did have and thus use some of the basis and context found in this video. Which, of the Kirby games mentioned by Moony on here, that would leave Sakurai's only work as Super Star, where most of the "Marxist" comparisons were ALSO made mostly made after the game itself, via various retcons in lore descriptions plus Super Star Ultra.
@@extremmefan7305 Based on his Dreamland 1 video SAkurai was more about the Dreamy aspect of Kirby Really feel like a Dream
thank you, you'd think such an otherwise well researched video wouldn't have just assumed Sakurai directed all the Kirby games.
"The son of the sun rises as a god and descends as a man by the glow of two suns crafted by the hands of man." Jesus Murphy, four months on and this quote still goes so fucking hard.
A lot of the Christian symbolism in Japanese popular culture is rooted in Ultraman. One of the original Ultraman creators happened to be a very devout Catholic so he filled Ultraman with Catholic symbolism and Ultraman being so influential it has leaked out into the rest of Japanese pop culture
Also alot of enemies in the series tend to be false, Ultramen, which can be looked at as false christs, or Meiflas who's main goal is to convince humanity to turn over their very world. I know it might be stretching it a little, but I find the idea of even a Christian Japanese show dealing with killing gods Kind of hilarious.
@@thekey0123 YHVH literally owned the Egyptian pantheon during the Exodus arc through sending them plagues which they couldn't stop. And there's that one saint named Boniface which killed the faith of Odin through hacking the Donar's Oak shamelessly in front of the heathens. If there's any more based person out there which acknowledges these feats it's that one hardcore Japanese Catholic dude.
"You start at level one". When I figured out what he was doing there, I got chills. Truly one of the best videos I've ever watched. I've been watching this channel grow rapidly along many others here and I cannot overstate how much I enjoy your work, man. This video might be your best yet. Can't wait to see your top this one going forward too.
Maybe you could fill me in? I got the vibe he was alluding to something deeper, but I couldn't quite grasp the metaphor (aside from video games, that part was obvious).
@@captainpumpkinhead1512 same
@@captainpumpkinhead1512 he was referring to Marxist revolution. I appreciate that he did a dive into Japanese religious history but he seems to be following the same cycle and encouraging the next rotation. I do find it ironic how he takes motifs of religious thoughts and actions and treats them the same way that JRPGs treat western mythology and religious concepts: as tokens devoid of their own and original meaning and expression.
I feel the same loved the end it was poetic, motivational & inspirational
@@forthehonorforge4840 What do you mean by the last bit, as in how did he do that or vice versa?
Wow. I'm fucking stunned. I was vaguely aware of many of the topics you brought up, but the way you tied them all together so cohesively just blew my brain open. Side note, but when you brought up Gnosticism, I think there was a missed opportunity to mention the Xeno series. Xenogears was essentially a 1:1 metaphor for Gnosticism and the rest of the games from there all feature an enormous number of references to it throughout.
I did draft a short section on Xenoblade and Xenosaga, as a case-study chapter, but I ended up cutting quite a few of the case study chapters due to redundancy. I do think you're right though: that the Xeno series in particular explores some very interesting Gnostic themes. Perhaps they will even get their own video one day!
@@moon-channel okay, good to know you’re not a heathen :P I would love a video like that on the Xeno series! Good stuff
@@moon-channel Great video, no joke. I learned _a lot_ from this essay, thanks. *+1 subscriber.*
@@moon-channel please I neeeeed a Xeno video 😁
@@moon-channel And then there's the part where Xenoblade 3 just casually quotes Karl Marx. Xenoblade 3 is many things, but subtle is not one of them.
Wtf did not expect the amount of academic work behind this. Talking about the arts to approach a silly trope, absolutely beautiful. I hope this video blows up!!
The fact that I got to watch this for free feels like a crime. Ive come out of this video not only with a greater understanding of Japan and its history, but also with the motivation to make a change. Keep it up.
The first hour of japanese history was so interesting, I almost forgot the original premise of the video. Then when you brought it back together around the one hour mark. The payoff was incredible. Amazing video.
can you give a tldr of that section about japan's history with religion and how it relates to modern times?
@@lavendermarshmallowplant3229 Basically a cycle of religion changes (as understood in East Asian POV). From folk Shinto -> Chinese religions -> precursor of state Shinto -> West -> state Shinto -> Capitalism. Chinese religion/philosophies helped with centralization of power. However, it also gave rise of the struggle between peasants and elite class. This made the winning elite class (Shogunate) to persecute other religions (specially foreign ones) for a new state controlled native one. Modernity hits Japan with contact with West which forced modernization or death mentality. The new state Shinto creates a promise of greatness to the Japanese people. However, it ended in ruins. Capitalism becomes the new "religion" that promises economic salvation in exchange for conformity and obedience. In the end like past religions it brought ruins for its falsehood after the Japanese bubble popped during the 90s. Basically to understand this trope of killing false gods in modern Japanese media, you need to understand this cycle of religions promising but ultimately bring misery to the population.
The Historian's Craft has a pretty good overview with more academic focus of Japanese history. It is pretty interesting and helps understand Japanese mentality (and at some extend East Asian mentality in general as it is interlinked).
Oh, *OH* This isn't just observing patterns in RPG history, this is *history* history, I need to brace myself for a heck of a ride
First, when you were building up to the keiretsu reveal, I was like, "ah, yes, the small amount of people holding inordinate power: The Student Council" 😂😂😂 This was mind-blowing, in the best way. Did not expect this degree of thorough research combined with shrewd irl tie-ins. Freakin' chills at the end there, man. Just an absolute phenomenal video essay 👏👏👏
I find myself coming back to specifically watch conclusion segment of this video, gives me chills every time! This has to be one of my favorite videos I've ever watched.
You tricked me into watching an hour-long history lesson on Japanese religion and economy and the societal effect it had just to tie it into Kirby's Tuesdays?! You, sir, are brilliant.
I have to say, this is honestly one of the best video essays I've seen in years. And I don't say that lightly - I watch a lot of video essays, and I really enjoy them. But there is something I particularly appreciate about your style. I think it's in part how you describe things in a way that clearly communicates knowledge without even a hint of pretentiousness; there is no veneer of intellectualism, you're evidently just a person well-informed on the topic who wants to explain your thoughts and bring about understanding and discussion. You're also clear and assertive on your values, but culturally and historically sensitive; there's a clear sense in this video that there are things you do or do not approve of, and you have contentions of a political and social nature, but you represent cultures and history as-they-are and leave the talk of how they _should_ be until after we can assuredly know how they are now. It shows both personal care about the issue and a high level of respect, two things that are very welcome in topics of this nature. I wish more video essays could uphold this standard. I see in your account description that you made this channel because you wanted "content that was serious without being anxiety-inducing, mature without being condescending, and wholesome without being overbearing". And I'd say you certainly did just that.
I just finished watching the whole video and I was trying to think of how to say what I felt after watching this video and you hit the nail on the head for me! 100% agree, and thank you Moon Channel for the great video essay!
Your use of music fits so well thematically with each corresponding discussion! Love it!
Wasn't expecting a crash course on Japanese religious history and how it shaped the country's societal problems. But it sure as hell was a welcome surprise.
It's moreso the violent imposition of western requirements shaping the societal problems.
The most striking case of this god-slaying troupe I came across was Bomberman 64: The Second Attack. I'm not sure if it was the first instance for me but it was definitely early, and it just was very surprising because it wasn't a JRPG. You're dealing with a squad of aliens that have invaded multiple planets across the galaxy, and the last part of the game ramps up. If you haven't done it right you fight a lesser god and get a bad outcome when defeating it, the good ending escalates to fighting the god that created the universe. It's been 20 years I need to replay it and see if it holds up. I assume it isn't well known since the game is pretty rare in the West.
Goodness, that brings back such fond memories for me. And it is interesting too how this trope, in its very particular manner, finds its way to games even as obscure as Bomberman 64: The Second Attack!
i've heard the writer for that game worked on one of the final fantasy games (or something along these lines) so that's probably the reason
I wasn't expecting to cry to a message of hope and understanding right at the end there. Thank you. Great video, and a great history lesson and source of context.
I really didn't expect this video to be so great. I mostly started to watch for background talking as I play my game but I learned a whole lot. This really resonated with me, thank you so much for taking the time to put a lot of effort into this video.
This very long video is a bit of an experiment for the channel! Please let me know what you think: is the video a bit too dense? Could it have used further cuts? How is the sound quality? (I tried a different technique this time). Your comments help me to improve Moon Channel for all of you! Let me know too, if you have any fun ideas for future videos!
KEEP EM COMING MOON MAN
I enjoy the density because I feel like much of western misunderstanding of eastern tradition stems from oversimplification of ideas. That being said, maybe some sort of visual aids (charts, diagrams, etc) could help make some of the denser sections more digestible. Sometimes for me, as an English speaker, it helps to see foreign names written out. Seeing what the name looks like helps me memorize it more easily. Just a few thoughts though, your videos are great so trust yourself and keep it up because I think you've got a hell of a channel here.
very interesting and well paced. though, I initially thought there might be some sort of bias at play when you would show a visual gag when a japanese figure died, but curiously the assassination Charles Lenox Richardson was noted only as "vicious"
The video was great and did it's job keeping me entertained all the way through which is normally difficult as I don't normally watch videos over an hour in length for a topic I'm not especially invested in. I do however like your past work and have trust that your content is worth my time. So long as there are shorter videos going forward, you can continue to grow your audience and build up their trust so that way your bigger projects will not be thought of as a risk for your viewers precious time.
Hey Moony! I’m not yet through the video but I am in the middle of the part regarding East Asian divinity. Just wanted to say that your pronunciation of Chinese names and words was shockingly good, and that I greatly appreciate the care you put into pronouncing it properly! As someone who’s Chinese it means a lot! Very few content creators take the time to learn the correct phonetics 😭
I'm an international studies student who majors in Japanese studies and I thank you so bad for making this video, it explains and shows topics I've studied for the past few years and makes them interesting for others! When you showed the parallels between the zaibatsus and freaking Shinra I cheered mentally lol I love your videos so much, please keep them up ^^
This is such a fantastic essay, from the overview of religious history in Japan, its economic effects, and video game analysis, bravo!!
I've had this in my watch later since it released, and finally found time to give it a watch today. And I'm pleased to say that this might be the single best video I've seen on this platform. Outstanding work!
I always thought the 'Spirit Cultivation' stuff was closer to some kind of weird niche that gained popularity. Never realized till you mentioned that it is the Chinese equivalent of 'high fantasy' that it is so potentially wide spread and popular.
It's more a subgenre tag really. "Wuxia" would be the closely Chinese equivalent of high fantasy, with Louis Cha being their JRR Tolkien as he established most of the tropes in it.
@@day2148What are some of the tropes that would define modern Wuxia from something like ‘Journey to the West’ in your opinion? Reading the novel I was surprised at just how many tropes I had previously only encountered in Wuxia films and anime were fully formed in such an early work. I had assumed that Wu Cheng’en would have filled the role of Tolkien for Chinese fantasy; or is that like assuming the Poetic Edda is the origin of modern fantasy and not Tolkien.
@@leejerrett8268 The biggest diff that I can think of is Wuxia generally involves lots of power struggles / factional politics / social commentary. Louis Cha wrote most of his books during the Cold War and many of them were basically his thoughts on society and the world. For example, "The Smiling Proud Wanderer" made it clear he saw both the NATO/Wester block and the Soviets as hypocrites who cared only for power. While the "Condor Heroes" triology is about the social contract between state/people and it comparison to the responsibility between parent/child and master/apprehentice relations. This is similar to how Tolkien's own views on the world is strongly affected by his experiences in WW1.
I'm glad you covered Persona 5, but the whole Shin Megami Tensei series would be so controversial if it was more popular, but it's what got me into a lot of Hindu and Greek mythology when I was really young before I should have even been playing those games and before it was covered in High School.
Man, this is the first video of yours I've seen, and it's one of the best videos I've seen in quite a while. Amazing job. Love the liiiitle touch of speculation at the end without going too far into it. Now I'm off to watch your backlog.
Great video moonie, felt like giving a deserving standing ovation after that hour and a half of pure real life lore
Fun fact, the god killing trope is also known as “Did You Just Punch Out Cthulhu?” and “Kill The God” on Tv Tropes where they also lists various examples of its use across media. The use of hope and despair is a recurring theme that I also see in Japanese works like Danganronpa (being an iconic example) or Madoka Magica (spoilers for that show below) and could also be a subtle reflection of this cruel reality in Japan, the unethical systems, and the despair that they bring to its people as well. The theme of hope and despair are probably already used in the god killing trope however, which would make sense. But the whole God thing also reminded me of what happens at the end of Madoka Magica. I know it’s an anime example and not a video game example, but I insist because it’s also a story with a very meaningful message. Madoka Magica involved the protagonist, Madoka Kaname, becoming a benevolent god (as well as the literal embodiment of hope itself) who rewrites the entire universe to destroy the cruel witch system used by Kyubey and his race known as The Incubators, who are the aliens of the story that travel from planet to planet and the ones who make contracts with young girls to become magical girls by offering them any wish they desire in exchange for their soul which they turn into soul gems. The soul gems are actually the girls themselves and their human body becomes a remote body that the gem controls. This is so that they could recover from any mortal damage they receive so as long as the gem itself remains intact. If the gem is destroyed, then they simply die. If the soul gem and the body are separated for too long, the lifeless body will begin to decompose. The magical girls’ job involves fighting witches, beings who spread despair and who are revealed to be the very eldritch monsters that the girls will eventually become by falling into despair or using too much magic in combat thanks to their wishes coming with a monkey’s paw effect so that the incubators can collect their emotional energy in order to combat the eventual heat death of the universe, not concerned about what will eventually happen to Earth due to their reliance on the witch system. Despite them being the ones to contribute to humanity’s evolution, they view the fate of the planet as ultimately being “humanity’s problem” in comparison to their mission to save the entire universe. After all, they are aliens who lack emotions, have no concept of good and evil like how humans do, and can’t comprehend emotions whatsoever, using hard cold facts and logic instead. You also have Homura Akemi, who is looping the month these events take place in her multiple attempts to protect Madoka from Kyubey who wants to turn her into a magical girl thanks to her godlike potential that grows stronger for every time loop that Homura creates and the overwhelming amount of energy that Madoka will wind up giving them after transforming into her witch self, defeat the extremely dangerous witch known as Walpurgisnacht on her own, and stop The Incubators entirely after she learns about their true intentions during her first few time loops. In Homura’s final time loop, Madoka uses her godlike potential in her wish to erase witches from existence to ease the suffering and take away the burdens of all magical girls by bringing salvation to all of the despairing souls in the last episode. She takes the despairing girls to a better place (Heaven) and they also become part of the Law of Cycles. The affect of her wish also causes her human existence to be erased as she ascends to godhood. She willingly sacrifices her human existence on Earth for the sake of creating a better and more ethical system for magical girls. Magical girls themselves are seen as bringers of hope who eventually disappear and go to heaven when they despair in the rewritten universe. It doesn’t exactly involve a mortal killing a literal god unless Kyubey using the witch system could count as some kind of god metaphor. They’re more based off of the Faustian devil while bearing an angelic appearance. But it does involve Madoka becoming a God and using her godly status for selfless and benevolent purposes and there is a moment where she destroys her godlike witch self, Kriemheild Gretchen, after ascending to godhood. I can’t exactly go into detail about everything without this comment becoming too much of a lengthy essay about the show however so you’re going have to watch the show and do the research yourself if you’re curious. It makes me believe that while these cruel systems in the world exist, there is always the potential for someone to strike them down with a more benevolent and sympathetic system in order to bring about a hopeful future for the world similar to The Law of Cycles and how it functions in Madoka or The Future Foundation in Danganronpa. It’s very nice to have inspiring protagonist characters like Madoka Kaname and Makoto Naegi who embody hope itself in the face of despair and the darkness of reality.
I also love the use of hope and despair in stories.
@🎀JEHOVAH 🎀 If I may, I'd like to build on what you said and possibly go into what's presented in this video. If I'm right (and feel free to correct me if anyone wishes to), the concept of killing deities ties back to fighting against a system run by corrupt forces. Mostly run by people who say one thing but do something else, entirely. Well, taking what you said, here: "Madoka becoming a God and using her godly status for selfless and benevolent purposes"... I wonder. Has the other side of the coin been explored? Let's say there's a novel or a video game where instead of fighting against a deity, you fought for a deity. One that embodies how you described Madoka and can understand why people are fighting against that which they see as unfair... but disapproves of the methods used to make change happen. In this instance, the protagonist (or group of such) sees that others are hurting as they beg and plead for something to get them out of where they are. This leads to them turning towards people and concepts that seem nice on paper. But ultimately lead to even more problems that worsen over time. Both the protags and the benevolent deity take note of what the change-makers are promising. But, they've read between the lines and have an idea of what's actually happening (or going to happen). To keep things short, this proposed novel or video game would address and call the unfairness of the systems that the characters live in (and our societies, too). Yet, it calls into question what happens when it comes to turning away from old traditions/ways of thinking in favor of what's new based on previous negative experiences with them. The dangers of believing something that sounds and looks good when it isn't, What would happen after you kill a god, etc. Then, there's something else that could be called into question. Something that was brought up in this comment, here. From Rawle Nyanzi: "there’s another trope involving godhood that I sometimes see in Japanese games: the idea that man no longer needs a god or gods because they can solve their own problems now. Actraiser (where you play as the Abrahamic God) and Fire Emblem Echoes, where Mila says that the people of Valentia no longer need her. I think this has to do with the idea of modernization putting more power in individual human hands, so that things that were once amazing or extravagant are now commonplace. When we have a problem, we don’t need to beg a god for help, we just need to put our heads together and find a technological solution. In many ways, it’s the flip side of the god-killing trope, since it gives the idea that humanity’s best days are ahead of it, if only they work hard and continue to advance science and technology." (kzhead.info/sun/fKmOobCEb3xqmoE/bejne.html&lc=UgzGze6HndjvQ9RmtIN4AaABAg ) I'd go into more detail, but I'm not sure if I can fit everything that I want to say into just one comment.
Bro this comment is a video in itself damn
Shall I give you, Despair?
@@KevinKess dragons dogma explores the other side of that coin a little bit
I got legitimate chills when I was halfway through, learning about the sheer scope of Mitsubishi with the Shinra theme playing in the background when the realization Shinra as it is in FF7 is barely an exaggeration. Holy hell.
New response just dropped
Holy hell. Lol good one
And that’s just going to keep getting worse as long as the current economic system remains in power. You wanna help do something about it?
@@placeholder2937 Last time someone did something my grandpa got shot, so no.
It has been a while since I came across a video this educational! Thank you for all the research you did and the effort you put into it.
Thank you for your generosity, Lunar! I'm so glad that you enjoyed the video.
This is a really excellent video essay - i absolutely love how in depth your videos are. I really appreciate how you went over the cultural, historical, economical and sociological context to the trope so it could fully be explained.
This is probably the best documentary I've seen on modern Japanese culture, how it came to be, how it's a warning to everyone else in the world, and how games are used to convey this warning. You've managed to put into words what my cultural scholar self has been thinking and has been increasingly worried over in recent years. Thank you for making this.
tbh I'd say it's also among the best documentaries on any country's history I've seen too, it goes into such details and so far back all with a lot of research, that's really impressive
Yeah stuff like conformity and work culture are destroying them and when it comes to birth rate nobody is actually doing anything about the root problem nobody People are overworked and underpaid they don't have time to form relationship or take care of children also hope Japan doesn't have enforce gender role where women are made to give up their dream or work if they want to have a family or a relationship like in Korea which makes things worst
@@USSAnimeNCC- I'd argue conformity has nothing to do with it and that's just western egocentrism at work again. Japan actually has roughly the same fertility rate as Germany, probably higher if we only count "native Germans" because Turkish migrants in Germany usually have larger families. The problem is unlike Europe or even China, Japan (and effectively South Korea) are island nations that have deep xenophobic cultures that prevent them from seriously encouraging immigration.
@@USSAnimeNCC-What's your plan oh great white savior
@@USSAnimeNCC- it's not just conformity culture, this is a old thing. Don't forget the mix with the alien, or the imperialist nation
While this whole video is very informative and compelling, the conclusion talking about how we fight back, we start at level 1, we meet our party, and so on... that had me legitimately teary eyed. That is so apt, so hopeful, and feels like such a true real life experience when put in the context of the entire video that it makes me wish I could convince everyone I know to sit through this entire video just to inspire change from those final few moments. Truly amazing.
Me too...! It applied so well to FF7, but also to our own lives as well... thank you very much for making this video.
You have given me an entirely new layer of appreciation for the stories I’ve grown up enjoying. Thank you; I am an immediate subscriber
it's hard to find good video essayist these days with the onslaught everyone trying to do it. you've got properly researched material & a good voice for it. thank you for the concise & thoroughness. can't speak for the editing, as i usually listen to these with headphones while walking or running, but still enjoyed it thoroughly. already added some of your other videos to the queue. algorithm at work.
(At 34:30) Wow! I clicked in this video thinking it was going to be a simple 10-minute essay about a trope in videogames... but this feature-length documentary about Japanese history and religion is truly impressive. I'll reserve time tonight to give this video the attention it deserves. Edit: I have finally seen the entire video and it is incredible how well it ties *everything* together. This reflection needs to be shared.
In regards to the portrayal of the Bubble Era, I think Yakuza 0 absolutely nails it. It incorporates the historical context into gameplay by tiyng every progression system to INSANE amounts of money, as evidence of rapid economic growth of the country at the moment, and also makes Kiryu play a real estate management minigame, when in the real world one of the most valuable assets in the Bubble Era was Japanese real estate (in that regard, the Bubble crisis of 1989-1991 in Japan was very similar, if not identical, to the later crisis of 2008). Not to mention that the main plot is centered around the struggle to acquire a small piece of land in order to finish a major real estate project and then cash in on it, and how that greed damages people caught in the crossfire. The original Japanese intro theme for the game, titled simply "Bubble", carries over hopefulness as well as acknowledgment of the fact that the era is changing and the good times won't last forever. Gives me the chills every time. It also features a Ryu Ga Gotoku namedrop which is also cool
This reminds me of that feeling I'd always get where there was something i wasn't quite understanding, that feeling that there's something deeper beneath what I'm playing, but I'm missing an important piece that'd help me understand. The moment I found out that the Greater Will was alien to the Lands Between, I knew that there was something extremely important I was missing. Thank you.
This video is a masterpiece. I certainly wasn’t expecting a thorough examination of Japanese history and culture, with modern insights, remarkable editing and moving notions when I clicked on a video about JRPGs, but I was very pleased to discover it. I would hesitate to even call this a video essay, it felt more like a brilliantly crafted documentary. It is a thing to be studied, bravo Moon. You’ve definitely earned a subscriber.
The entire Shin Megami Tensei series (the tree from which the Persona's branches from) must be the pinnacle of this trope, since it literally starts and ends like this.
You gain the power of a god to reform the world the way you desire fit. You kill other gods that represent the systems you don't want, to become the god of the system you do want. SMT practically faces this idea head-on.
@@polkadiit also doesn't lecture the player and instead acts as a vehicle for understanding themselves.
smt is gibberish
@@aceroy9195 I hate when games lecture their players
@@nightfears3005 go play persona then, it's SMT but sanitized and dumbed down for people like you
One thing I would point out is that D&D has had a very strong influence on JRPGs, specifically the first few editions. In those, there was very much an “if you stat it, they can kill it” mentality where you would get stat blocks for gods and arch fiends in various supplements. Many an old school, high level party has been tempted to kick Zeus’ ass and I think that rubbed off on JRPG’s fathers.
Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) did have a presence in Japan in the 1970s and 1980s, but its popularity was relatively limited compared to other forms of tabletop gaming that were more deeply rooted in Japanese culture. During this time, traditional Japanese tabletop role-playing games (TRPGs) such as "Tunnels & Trolls" and "Record of Lodoss War" were more widely played and enjoyed by Japanese gamers. While D&D did have an impact on the Japanese gaming scene, its influence was primarily felt in the form of inspiration and adaptation rather than widespread popularity. Some Japanese game designers and enthusiasts were intrigued by the mechanics and concepts introduced by D&D and incorporated them into their own TRPG creations. It's worth noting that the popularity of D&D in Japan has grown significantly in recent years, with the release of Japanese translations and adaptations of the game. This has led to a broader recognition and appreciation of D&D among Japanese tabletop gaming communities.
@@OokamiYashaShiNo I should have been more clear. I did not mean D&D itself, but the 1-2 degrees of separation that differentiates D&D from Wizardy and similar PC RPGs. That said, Final Fantasy 1 is basically just someone's homebrew D&D game, including the Monster Manual, and it's hard to deny the importance of FF1.
@@OokamiYashaShiNo why the hell this feels like you copied from chatgpt?😂
@@NetBattler it does wtf
Dragon Quest was inspired from DnD. And from there it spawned Final Fantasy, Phantasy Star, Chrono, Fire Emblem, the whole shebang
Man, i really love your videos of " why is this thing in video games like this? " and then it's very well told story that you are able to make it interesting and fun, all of that for the context of whatever the video title is about, also your voice helps too
This was my first video I've watched from this channel, and colour me surprised, convinced and subscribed! Properly laid out structure with in depth framework to prove your thesis. I congratulate you on a project well done, this isn't as easy as you made it look. Now, to binge the rest of this channel...
I learned some interesting stuff here. Japan's religious trauma runs deeper than I realized. There's a broken, half-buried sign in the Midgar slums in FF7 that reads 「我々神...」. Diegetically it's a bit of branding, 'we [are] shinra', but because it goes off the screen, cutting off at *shin,* it becomes 'we [are] god'. It reminds me of the optometrist billboard from The Great Gatsby. I'n pretty sure I've seen the lost decades referred to as the lost generation
Interesting. Notably, a big part of why the West doesn't use this "god-slaying" trope in the same way is because of our starkly different religious history. Despite their tumultuous and often-adversarial relationship, the Catholic Church was never captured by any State, like the Japanese religions were. The Papacy went through periods when it was weak and held de facto captive by strong Emperors, sure, but there was never any doubt that the State and the Church were separate things. One might think that they should work together, or that the State should be blessed by the Church, but it would be unthinkable for the Emperor to proclaim himself Pope. That simply isn't possible within the logic of Christianity. The closest thing to that would be the Imperial Anti-Popes, puppet Papacies set up by various Holy Roman Emperors, but those were always defeated and ultimately failed. Even in Western countries with State Churches, one could claim that the problem isn't the Church, just that the State controls it. Thus, in a Western work, you can't use the same kind of metaphor - God is not controlled by the State, He is above Kings, He treats them the same as He does all other men. Thus, if a Western work uses the "god-slaying" trope, it's either just for stakes and escalation, or else a direct attack on the religion itself (IE, you are making an explicitly Anti-Christian work).
Isn't the execution of Jesus Christ "god-slaying"? Westerners seem to enjoy life by killing Jesus every week. I know that Jesus is not the Christian God.
true yeah i mean look at what happened when church/religion and state is fused together aka this video lol. personally just hate when religion and faith is used maliciously to manipulate people and only draw the rift even further.
And especially Christianity isnt verry well suited for the God-slaying trope since there is only one God. But if you take mythology, you get a plethora of gods, thus you can escalate further and further.
Also, among the Abrahamic religions, the idea of fighting God/Jesus/Mohammed is seen as incredibly blasphemous, and would cause a massive controversy even in secular Western countries, which is why it hasn't been explored in Western fiction. Meanwhile, even the most hardline anti-theists don't actually have any beef with God ('cause they don't believe he exists), just with the Earthly institutions of religions or churches. Which is why there's plenty of Western works where the villain is a religion, a church, or a cleric, but few where the villain is God himself.
@@jonson856True, slaying the Abrahamic God would involve essentially bringing down the whole divine order, but I'd still like to see a work where this idea is explored, as a sort of liberation of humanity from the ultimate tyranny. Reminds me of that time in the Spanish Civil War when a Republican firing squad held an "execution" of Jesus, where they shot a statue of Christ. But, as tou said, this was meant as a symbolic gesture against the Catholic Church, which had sided with the Fascists.
i didin't expect this vid to be so substantial in the end, well prepared material, and sadly very true.
Came across this video last summer and not only was it profound and insightful, it also gave me the dose of inspiration I needed to write my Extended Essay. Since the essay is now nearing completion, I'm dropping by to send my thanks. Please keep making amazing content.
Hi Daffie! Thank you so much for your incredible generosity, both with this very kind super thanks, but also through your patronage. I'm very glad to hear that the video was inspiring for you and that your own extended essay is nearing completion! Congratulations on your achievement: I hope that your work may also go on to inspire others. Thank you as well for teaching me about the Brazil meme I've been using! I will always remember that I learned this from you.
@@moon-channel I’m very glad that I was able to teach you something too, despite its triviality. That being said, I do certainly hope that I could one day produce something that goes on to inspire others too. It’s certainly a dream of mine to be able to do so. Best of luck with all your 2024 endeavors, both for Moon Channel and everything else you have going on.
1:09:00 As a hard example of this metaphor in action, "One Winged Angel" has a verse that has a subtle, steady beat of the Shin-Ra gears in their theme song. Even as Sephi becomes a god-being and moves the very heavens themselves, there's still a deep core in his rhythm, indeed his very heartbeat, of his past. As a god he is inseparable from the things that made him.
The part where he explains modern Japanese life felt so personal, it feels like hell to live like that
The West is slowly becoming that Eastern hell
I can't speak for Japan personally but I've both witnessed and heard endless accounts of a similar, if not in many ways worse, system in place in South Korea. The youth call it Hell Joseon for a reason. You can see it happening in mainland China as well with the "Let It Rot"/"Quiet Quitting" movement that's been a big deal for the past few years.
@@_Dingu It seems to be the very problem with Asian culture of "Study, study more, study forever". Asian people believe wisdom is the cure to everything. There's a quote from a game said: "The God of Wisdom's enemy is wisdom itself and the oasis of knowledge is a mirage in the desert of ignorance." Asian believe knowledge to be the miracle pill. Parents forced their children to went out into the desert to find that oasis but the only thing they get in return is ignorance. The kids are killed of their inner dreams of their very identity. To think that an AI nowadays have more personality than any Asian makes me laugh at how fucced up humanity is.
@@_Dingu When the game is so stacked against you and requires you to sacrifice your body and soul just to be rewarded with being a cog in the machine. Why even play to begin with?
@@Mochachocakon and the only logical explanation to such an turn of events? Kill the god who made the system.
I didn't know I needed this video! This was awesome. Especially the background music alignment with the story (especially "Rufus Welcoming Ceremony March" when introducing the US into the story lol) Great work!!!
The chills. CHILLS. That ending gave me. I- this video really put me to thought, Moony. I think you've outdone yourself, I'm glad I was finally able to take the time to fully dedicate myself to watch it in full.
Amazing video dude, I loved every second of it, it wasnt just an analysis but also greatly educational and full of artistic depth of its own. If I may add something, I think another very clear example/symptom of this topic is another trope widely attributed to Japanese media: The misguided villain that sees the current world/system as corrupt/imperfect/beyond helping, and wishes to reset it, be it through a literal reset with time shenanigans, or by destroying it and birthing it anew. And I dont think this is a coinsidence, considering Japan's own history, especially looking at WW2, of great (but short lived/temporary) prosperity after a period of serious decline and almost complete annihilation.
This also plays very heavily into the Japanese concept of "gekokujo", which refers to someone of lower status or power overthrowing someone greater through martial force. It has similar resonances as the English "revolution", but has an implication of being a moral good, especially if it is determined that the upstart faction/individual had the good of their society in mind. I also don't think that these "well intentioned extremists" are often positioned as being in the wrong, given the role that the concept of "gekokujo" played in the militarization and hypernationalist jingoism of the Showa period (early 20th century).
A video about killing gods brought up Nietzsche without saying the line! Also, I loved your visual pun when bringing up the Nara Jidai. Goofiness aside, I loved every damn minute of this video. I especially enjoyed the ending, where you didn't just point at the problem and shrug your shoulders, but talked about the exact thing that people need to be able to do right now. I've been saying this for a few years now, but the best thing we can do is to be the opposite of what we hate and what hurts us. The Mammon machine wants us divided and bickering and blaming each other for its failings. The best thing we can do is band together. Build communities, foster their growth, expand their capabilities. Become more than yourself by helping others become themselves. We are, all of us, more alike than we are different. As soon as I'm able, I will be contributing to your Patreon. You're doing great work here, and it would be an honor to contribute to its creation.
"A video about killing gods brought up Nietzsche without saying the line!" I mean, that's mostly bc Nietzsche wasn't being literal when he said the line (nor was it really meant to be seen in a positive light)
The breadth, synthesis, and pacing of this video is nothing short of excellent. Thank you for making such and informative and entertaining experience
This is genuinely one of the best videos I've ever seen and as someone who's been dming for a group of friends in dungeons and dragons and has has a strong interest in writing his own story I believe this has given me infinite inspiration. Thank you!
I'm at a loss for words - not that that'll stop me for long! This is an incredible achievement in youtube video essays. I feel like I've had my understanding of the religious history of Japan, and the mechanics of their lavish 80s and the lost decades that followed, expanded considerably - along with finding out beyond a shadow of a doubt why this trope is so popular. I already knew a fair bit about bits and pieces of much of what you've talked about, but I really feel like this video ended up being the milk to fill my dry bowl of cereal, if you will. Thank you for making this, and I look forward to checking out more of your work.
Hi Hotshot! Thank you for both your kind words and your incredible generosity. I'm glad that you enjoyed the video!
It's a remarkable experience to walk away from a video essay feeling like I not only learned a ton more than I expected, but also perhaps changed my perspective on history, culture and media. Well done sir, very well done. On the subject of the Western relationship to gods, I'd like to add a point about the common concept of "hubris" that pervades Greek mythology and Christianity. In these religions, the divine status of God/gods is so authoritative that even the thought of challenging them is regarded as a moral failing, and often leads to exceptionally cruel punishments. Safe to say, a culture ingrained with this worldview will not easily let go of its gods nor welcome those who challenge them.
Same here!
Honestly, what annoys me is how predictable it has become... EVERY JRPG, you know/notice a church or cult, 100% their god is always evil and you kill it. Honestly, fuck it, I would much rather prefer the 'bad ends' where we just join that god's side, though few games have the balls to give us that option. Strangely, SMT and Persona are among those games.
@@somederp8915 someone ignored all that was said on the video, congratulation, you deserve a seal of how muricans think the world works. also, congratulations for ignoring dragon quest, a series where you literally save your progress by confessing to a priest in a church.
@@somederp8915so did you just miss the entire part of the video were the “god” wasn’t actually a god and just a force given god status?? Moon said Capitalism was the current false god that’s effecting all of us and you’re still gonna go with a surface level take like that? To humor your point, in a way we do, we live in a money driven society and making capital is the one thing that gives one hope, so …yes you did join the “bad side”
@@MephistofelesI like that you said all that sassy/sarcastic stuff while being called _Mephistofeles._ it's... very on brand with his style in most of his interpretations. 😂
Been looking for this video for months, so glad it's doing the rounds again.
I am shocked at how well made and easy to understand to video was. I learned a lot so thanks. You are amazing.
Mammon machine is beautifully given new purpose here. As a Christian who is heavily and shamelessly a Gospel of John Christian I've always associated the deicide with the "Ruler of this World" and everything wrong and twisted with this world which has meshed nicely with the "System" in the Japanese nuance of the Great Enemy.
In Chrono Trigger, the machine that draws from the power of Lavos and corrupts the Kingdom of Zeal is the Mammon Machine -- mammon, comes from the Hebrew, ממון, which literally means money/capital. And as it is stated in the Good Book, Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
@@moon-channel can you make a video about Megaman battle network series?
chrono trigger has heavy christian symbolism i believe. but queen zeal being a literal mask = deception and hands = manipulation while casting a star of david has me thinking why nobody else seems to have noticed that particularity.
"I'm a god. How can you kill a god? Such a grand and intoxicating innocence." -A dude with a piece of pottery on his head.
I’ll be honest, this video goes beyond just games and gets to the core of issues in society cause by a common problem, mainly class war. Whether it’s Edo Period Japan or Modern day USA, the class issue has persisted and caused all these issues that face us today. Thanks for this video, truly incredible work 🙏🏼
Thank you for your incredible generosity, Edwin! I'm so glad that video was meaningful to you.
convinced me to subscribe, this was like an exciting full-length movie to me. those lines at the end go hard asf.
I knew Shinra was suppose to represent an evil conglomerate to it's biggest "splendor", and noticed a few of the religious references, but I just now get that Final Fantasy VII is so deeply full of nuance, both subtle and not-so-subtle, that is kind of insane this game was allowed to exist and be so wildly popular. The story lessons from Japan had extended my limit knowledge of Japan, I knew about the general insane life style that the typical japanese has (aka: anyone that hasn't decided to essentially abandon society), and I knew about some of the context of the Japanese's religion, as well as their relationship with foreigner concepts, but things never fully clicked, until now, everything makes so much sense now, it feels so connected, conscious or unconscious, there is a reason why the japanese have this trope, and why it's so filled with meaning, thanks Moon!
There isn't a secret. It's a democracy, where very few things are unjustly forbidden.
During american occupation and the decades following it, any subersive idea was censored so book authors and game developers has to be extremely fucking subtle to even get anything published. For example there is a reason why we rarely see political anime get released, its always an anime like madoka magica, or tatami galaxy, space dandy, kaiba, etc that hides alot of its intensions behind subtex. Imagine something like akumetsu getting an anime, 😂😂😂
I like this way this guy narrates, it's like those science videos they make you watch in class except it's about things you're actually interested in.
This is by far my most favorite video on KZhead. Great work. All the info is really cool and kinda good to understand even for someone like me who is not that into interlectual studys.
Great video! My first from you I think and it was excellent! Love the blending of politics, history and entertainment. Media definitely happens in a context and it's nice to demystify it by talking about all of it. So many people tend to take stories in a vacuum so it's nice to see you hit it head on.
Came for JRPGs insights, stayed for the historical/religious/economical/philosophical thesis. Just subscribed.
Came for the games, stayed for the history lesson
This is just about the best channel I have found. Amazing explanation, editing, everything!
I'm glad I stayed, this was so incredibly informative - about religion, culture, history and politics. At first the length of the video intimidated me, but damn, it was worth every second
I can't say I expected a mammoth lesson in history, culture, mythology, and economics. I can't say I expected that somewhat sobering warning at the end, followed by words of encouragement. But it was certainly a very pleasant surprise. Thanks for putting this together. So many stories of so many JRPGs I've played now make a little more sense thanks to all the cultural context and explanation you've provided. Great work!
I can't believe that you're talking about killing gods in JRPGs without talking about SMT series, where you LITERALLY kill many gods in every games
As insensitive as this is to say, Japan is the only country to date that has been on the receiving end of what could be described as the wrath of an vengeful god; an event that traumatic has to have some lingering effect on the zeitgeist of a nation that endured it. I remember watching another video about how Godzilla was a manifestation of Japan's lingering anxiety and trauma about the use of the atomic bomb. To me it sounds similar to how after we withdrew from Vietnam, the zeitgeist in the USA started tilting towards either sympathizing with or using overwhelming and expertly-applied violence against irregular fighting forces. The stereotype of "killing god" in anime and Japanese RPGs could be interpreted as the latent rebellion against the idea that there are some powers so absolute, some acts so devastating that no retribution is possible.
This video had incredible quality and massive wealth of information masterfully digested and laid out. Thank you, I don't know how you even do this.