TRANS - Biology or Ideology? with Helen Joyce - The Shape of Dialogue #25
Helen Joyce is a journalist and was a staff writer for The Economist between 2005 and 2022. Helen held various leading positions at The Economist, including education editor, Brazil correspondent, International editor, Finance editor and Britain editor.
Helen's first book, "Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality," was published by OneWorld in July 2021. It was reissued in 2023 under the new title "Trans: Gender Identity and the New Battle for Women's Rights."
"Trans" was an immediate bestseller and was named by the Times, Spectator and Observer as one of their books of 2021.
Helen now campaigns for women's rights and works with the start-up human-rights organisation Sex Matters, which campaigns for clarity about the two sexes, male and female, in law and in life.
www.thehelenjoyce.com/
www.thehelenjoyce.com/trans-n...
www.amazon.com.au/TRANS-When-...
sex-matters.org/
Music - Bach Mass in B Minor conducted by John Eliot Gardiner
open.spotify.com/album/3HdmIB...
I watch and listen to every podcast/interview that Helen Joyce does. She is a truly great strong woman who has a brilliant understanding of all this confusion and mess we are in.
Same, i will even endure her terrible audio quality to listen lol
Erudition through a mathematical mind
Wow that must be time consuming - she’s done at least 74000
@@mattbradbury Been counting??
Me too! She's a force of nature! Amazing woman.
Ooh, we've got a particularly fiery Helen Joyce on our hands today! Love it. I enjoy every single interview with her.
She’s become more fiery lately, and I’m absolutely here for it.
I get the feeling when she gets cross she’d crush people verbally! Awesome 🤩
@HellCatt0770 haha, yes, I think she’d leave you feeling like you’d no skin left
@@HellCatt0770it must be like standing in a hurricane without a breath of wind elsewhere
Helen is THE most well spoken on the Trans subject. She should tour the world speaking to governments along with the Cass report.
Thank goodness there are women like Helen Joyce articulating these complicated issues. The only part of the transdebate that isnt complicated is that biological sex is real and not up for debate. Thank you Helen for all your work!
Trans ideology is a cult!
@@louiseparker1915 Biological determinism is a cult! Trans ideology is not a cult, since it has no ideology to fall back on, it is a fact of biological sex as a diversity. It is a nature, not culture. Gender identity is the only thing that is real, because it is experiential and self evident, whereas biological sex can be interpreted in anyway we want to fit our biases, that means a vagina can be a male organ and penis a female organ, that is what makes it an ideology by default, it is the reason why definitions of biological sex have been changing throughout the history so much.
1:27:55 Amen. There’s a very good reason why Roxy Tickle’s lawyer didn’t want to Helen to testify. Imagine having to cross examine Helen Joyce!
Is Helen going to testify in the case? Can the lawyer legally stop her from doing so?
@@maystrehmel4615 The hearing has already been and gone. It was at the beginning of April. Tickle’s lawyers objected by saying that Helen Joyce wasn’t an expert witness.
Exactly!
I’m a simple girl. I see Helen Joyce, I listen. I look up to her so much. She’s so absolutely brilliant and articulate and astute. A truly remarkable woman.
She’s just so bloody good. I couldn’t love this woman any more. Sharp, spicy and genius. If only others would be so dignified and righteous as Helen Joyce.
I do so appreciate Helen's wisdom and knowledge which she shares with us. I only wish she had a better mic. I understand that sometimes the logistics don't allow for it, but I don't want to miss a thing she says
The best interviews with Helen are where the interviewer ask a question then listens. The more she talks the better the show. This is one of the best.
Shes a genius but isnt it funny that you dont need to be a genius to know what a man and woman is. Lol. I really love her
Wow! I've seen Helen Joyce in many podcasts . This one is the very best . Well done both.
Listening again & again to Helen Joyce is such a pleasure as she continues to do the thinking & analysis to articulate her position SO WELL. THANK YOU HELEN JOYCE.
Love listening to Helen, great to see a Kiwi interviewing her too.
Her book arrived during the week. It's a fascinating read.
She`s great mate
I am constantly amazed and impressed at Joyce's erudition, grasp of the subject matter and clarity of ideas and her ability to express those ideas. I try to watch every video in which she is featured because each time, even with repetition of many of the basic points and tenets of her argument, I mine at least one new nugget of information and understanding. Thank you, thank you, thank you Helen Joyce.
Cool to see a Kiwi not captured. I mean prolly most Kiwis agree with Helen, but you wouldn’t know from MSM.
Same problem in Ireland. Cricket's from MSM. Any other best seller from this country would be on the late late show. Couldn't even find her book on shelves here had to order online.
She's the new Christopher Hitchens.
Come to think of it, Hitchens would have been so useful in this debate. I agree with you - Helen has something of his erudition and spice. Yet, she’s her own woman and a superstar with no need for comparison. I’m very grateful for her clarity.
Dr. Joice fights for women's rights no matter what. And on every level, I have to say. It's a patriarchic idea that women after a "certain" age should cut their hair short. They should not be seen as "attractive" anymore by definition, so to say. Helen opposes also this absurd doctrine, which is discriminating against women, and shows up with a wonderfully long, flowing and elegant hairdo. You look fantastic, dear Dr. Joice, and you are fantastic! :) :)
The reason men like long, glossy, healthy hair on a woman is because it's a natural marker of fertility. We are human beings and are hired wired to reproduce, especially men, in which whose desire to procreate is the greatest. Once a woman enters menopause, she loses that lustre and gloss to her hair. It becomes dry, brittle and grey and no longer beautiful to wear long so, for convenience, women simply cut their hair short. It isn't patriarchy causing it but women's desires themselves. They can no longer wear their hair long if its thin, dry, brittle etc. Wearing it short becomes more manageable. Its estrogen loss that causes the changes in hair during menopause. Some women have good genes and still seem to have moist, manageable hair at this stage and they are able to wear it long. I'm 53 and have a pixie cut. If I wore my hair long I would look old, fat and tired. With my hair short I look pretty. I didn't cut my hair because my husband asked me to or because he preferred it that way. It was my own decision to do so because the structure of my hair had changed and it was frustrating wearing it long any longer. Patriarchy isn't behind every female decision, you know...
@@Islas_Canarias "The reason men like-" I genuinely don't care what men like or why. I care what I like and the why is nobody's business but mine. PS: I love my long hair and grey strands. It is a privilege that I have lived long enough to have them.
@@Islas_Canarias There are plenty of mature women who look awesome with short hair, and I am sure you do, too. Patriarchy comes into play when mature women are pressured to cut their hair short -- because, as you say, they are not "fertile" any more, and, by cutting their hair short, this "marker of fertility" is gone that could perhaps falsely signal to men that this lady could perhaps "still be worth courting" her. The truth is that many women love long hair and feel and are beautiful with it, no matter the age. For them it is not, perhaps falsely, claiming to be "fertile", it is a matter of aesthetics for them. In "makeover shows", you often see not dry and brittle, but massive and huge and healthy ponytails cut off of mature ladies who have experienced pressure to allow this to happen to them. Exactly from this point of fertility: "this woman does not deserve to have such a mane anymore, she is not fertile any more and would trick men into believing she was". And this is extremely discriminating against women in my opinion.
Lol. Funnily enough, I did comment some months ago that I like the way Helen’s change her hair/look. I noticed a lot of female academics seem to grey their hair, let themself go, perhaps. They tend to be feminist and/or lesbian. The trend of ‘50 shades’ is the sexualisation of women beyond their most fertile. Ideally, neotony is what men are seeking. Older women may capitalise on this, but reeeeeeeally the younger women should be competing - for the sake of population replacement. The concept of hypergamy is upended in this era.
@@mrlawilliamsukwarmachine4904 Thank you for your answer! I cannot speak about other female academics. But what I see in these videos of Dr. Joyce, however, is that her now long hair is exceptionally well-cared and shiny. Such a shine does not come from nothing, she surely worked a lot on this look. I really hope that she keeps on enjoying this look, It suits her so very well in my opinion. I think her husband would be very grateful too, Helen is still a very attractive lady, and having a beautiful wife with such beautiful well-kept long flowing hair is surely very positive for relationships at whatever age.
This is one of the best interviews with Helen Joyce and I've watched a lot! And that's thanks to the brilliant interviewer who ask a great question and let's her talk as much as she can. Fantastic. Thank you so much!
Coach Linda Blade is also a great resource for the differences in men and women in sports.
I am lucky enough to have seen Serena Williams play on the Wimbledon show courts twice. What an incredible athlete. Love to watch another interview with Helen!
Identity does not equal our adjectives or our pronouns
The intro with Bach in the background is just spectacular!
Mass in B Minor is one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written.
Sound quality during the podcast left much to be desired, however
Another excellent conversation with Helen Joyce. Very grateful. 💛
I love you Helen! Thank you for all that you do.
If you could have dinner with any one living person in the world, would you choose Helen Joyce or Helen Joyce?
Helen Joyce is brilliant. Thanks for the conversation... ☝️😎
Follow the money.
Bless you, Michael Goldwater, for letting Helen speak ♥
I( always considered myself t be far left. Then along came the trans issue and all of a sudden I became far right.
Same….Colin Wright mad a little cartoon about how the left left him…it‘s exactly how I feel
Most of us say Helen is completely correct on this issue rather than far right.
Apparently I’m a Nazi! Previously described as a lefty, tree hugging hippy by those that know me!
🎵"We're all far right now" 🎵 kzhead.info/sun/f9ebgtaMjH6mmnk/bejne.html
Exactly the same thing for me as well.
We’re so lucky to have Helen and JK Rowling on the side of reality.❤
Love HJ I listen to every podcast she does
Absolutely love Helen Joyce ❤
If you're a mathematician, postmodernism should be anathema to you.
Please explain?
Everyone has to speak up in every domain or corner of society that we won't comply with a thought ideology that abolish women rights for girls and women Love u helen, I'll continue to advocate like I do for us
Trans women (originally males) are those girls and women too!!!! The protection of their rights protects the rights of all women, unless you wish to live in middle east. Because this fear is what is supporting that kind of totalitarian system. Trans women are NOT biological males in the truest sense of the word, because it is hormones and gender identity developed in utero is what determines how we develop, not gametes or chormosomes, sex has always been a diversity, not binary, intersex represent that diversiy. There have been females born with a penis (intersex) who shared female spaces ALL THIS TIME, where have people like you been? This ignorance is weaponized by people who are clueless about biology of sex.
Trans women ===== men
Michael is listed as being in New Zealand. Does this mean we in New Zealand have someone who is capable of interviewing Helen Joyce for 1hr and 28m? Unbelievable. Sean Plunket talked with her on The Platform. What an oaf and a plonker he was! Well done, Michael!
Yes hes not the best. its very distracting how he is always looking around like hes a bit too cool to devote his full attention to the interviewee. She was very good though.
@@001tilly I thought he was very nice. Helen is one of the happy coincidences that alerted me to heterosexual men pretending to be women. Posie Parker's visit to Auckland woke me from a pretty deep slumber and at the same time I accidentally clicked on a YT video with Helen speaking. Her speaking is really what did it for me: eloquence, pinpoint linguistic accuracy, faultless delivery, I could go on. 👍👍👍
@@paulmead5832 Yes shes great. There are many other academics speaking on this topic that I could recommend also. We need men to speak out on this issue as it is completely out of control and incredibly detrimental to the rights of biological women. Look up Graham Linehan if you are interested in a male perspective. He wrote father ted amongst other things and was "cancelled" after speaking out on this issue. He was recently in NZ actually but I wasnt able to get to any of his speaking engagements. bummer.
@@001tilly You maybe want to look into Colin Wright. A pretty decent young biologist who focuses more on the arguement aspects like "sex is on a spectrum", "there are more than two sexes" differences between the sexes, definition of sex and all the nonsensical red herrings like "bUt iNteRseX".
I find it concerning how none of our nz media doesn’t talk about this issue.. i got hung up on by stuff for ringing and asking this question… glad to see a NZ interview with Helen or anyone that knows how this trans ideology is affecting nz… i myself have been silenced by the rainbow community for speaking out..
Always good to hear from Helen Joyce, appreciate you sharing this video with us. Not sure if Helen has heard of this case before, but it is shocking! “Hannah Tubbs 26 year old male sex offender is sentence to a youth female correction facility. A Los Angeles County judge on Jan. 27 ordered Hannah Tubbs, a 26 year old male-to-female transgender Californian, to serve two years in a juvenile detention facility after Tubbs pleaded guilty to sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl in 2014 - but it's possible Tubbs could only face six months.” He doesn’t appear to have had sex reassignment surgery. Can you even wrap your mind around that?
Free speech includes the right of people to listen to - and to be able to hear - people who are speaking. This is why activists who drown out speakers are preventing this right.
If they only could get to the point of not caring about winning the body lottery in any sense, the sooner you’ll live a better life. Life’s too short for rumination on how we were short changed, there are over 8 billion other people who feel the same way. Most gay people I know would not change the sex they were born with, even though as a teenager I know a lot would have loved to have been a girl. Well, they grew out of that, and looking back most teenage girls weren’t living their best life either. Kids, wait these things pass.
None of my gay male friends or me thought that we were or wanted to be a girl; being attracted to men does tend to make you appreciate masculinity and aim to be masculine yourself. Most straight people like yourself only identify people as gay when they fit the stereotypical images you have about them. In the last census only 89% of the population in the UK said they were straight so there are a lot of us about who are completely invisible to you. Being gender non-conforming and being LGB are completely separate things, and there are trans people who are lesbian, gay and straight before they transition. I’m just pointing this out to you because you seem to think you’ve made a good point - but you haven’t. When I was a gay kid I got bullied endlessly for being a poof or girly somehow - my response was to make myself more masculine. In short most gay people are completely happy in their birth gender.
As usual I agree with Helen. Even about tennis. I would far rather watch the ladies play. Graphite racquets ruined the men's game. too many aces. I miss the days of Borg, McEnroe, and Connors playing with wooden racquets.
Fantastic rant about sexed differences and women’s bodies!! ❤ loved that
Around 23:45, this is EXACTLY what David Icke has been lecturing for decades about the human eye and the electromagnetic spectrum, etc 😝
I don't relish the idea of being around another male while naked. I imagine it would be extremely uncomfortable for a woman being naked in front of a strange man or a being around a strange naked man.
"better self control of our emotions, particularly the anger ones" no. I don't believe that generalises that way for a second.
It’s a false equivalence to talk about basketball players and height advantage in relation to boxers and weight categories. Basketball is a TEAM ball game. Boxing is one on one COMBAT. You match boxers based on rank/history. The thing about basketball is one can actually score baskets at any size.
I think people often miss that not all people with transsexualism subscribe to trans ideology which has developed much over the past 15 years. Prior to this when I was diagnosed the discussion was very different. We could openly discuss what we thought the scientific, medical and psychological causes for the condition but this kind of discussion became increasingly taboo with the new waves of “transgender” who told us we were bigots and essentially kicked is out of our own communities which were very small in the beginning. From my perspective I can go in to depth the nature of my condition without mentioning personal Identity which I experience as secondary to the condition itself which is experienced prior to any knowledge about transsexualism is. Even in this video I hear “Identifies as a X” over and over which glosses over the primary condition and focuses on the Identity as if these things are synonymous. I suffered with GD without knowing about trans or being able to connect what I was experiencing to any kind of concept of gender incongruence but I still suffered from it and it would take me a long time to to figure myself out and realise its a mental health issue and reach out for professional help. I hope the public doesn’t loose sight of the genuine condition and write it off as make believe because they think this is purely an ideology without the knowledge that trans ideology as it stands today is quite new and wasn’t accessible to people suffering with transsexualism just 15 years ago. People think if you give a sufferer just the right argument they will be cured, but it’s not something you can logic yourself out of because the condition fundamentally is not rational one and isn’t borne from a mental concept or delusional thinking. People with this condition are at a high risk right now of being left behind and unsupported which wont fix anything for them and will only make life very difficult for a small population for something totally out of their control living in a world that doesn’t care to understand. We’re supposed to have compassion for people who suffer from disorders but this disorder is villainised, it’s an existence I truly wouldn’t wish on anyone.
Really interesting, thanks for posting. How can we understand better what GD is without seeing it as incongruence between a person's sex and their psychological gender identity? Do you think transition, whether social or medical, is generally the best path for someone with GD or are there alternatives? I expect that most people who support HJ think that some form of conversion therapy is the best path, yet there is a scientific consensus that it doesn't work and causes harm.
@@jonstewart464 I think Identity is secondary. I think this because gender incongruence is experienced first before adopting an alternative identity. People seem to think the opposite though, that you choose an identity and build your behaviour around that. The stress of trying to present and behave in a way that feels unnatural to you is a large part of why GD is so upsetting, you feel restricted and uncomfortable and if like me you had no concept of transsexualism you aren’t immediately identifying with an alternative gender, you just accept what is socially presented to you. It seems to me that there are underlying mechanisms at play and these seem to be outside of the reach of reason. It doesn’t matter how much I know what my biological sex is and how this cant be changed, some part of my brain is at odds with this and I cant talk it out of it and to deny it is to neglect myself. Forcing myself to conform is only adding stress, but when allowing myself to lean in to the behaviour and social role that feels natural to me that stress goes away because I’m not constantly fighting myself. So what is it that I was fighting? Why wasn’t I free just to feel comfortable in my biological sex and gender role like most other people can? These are the questions I would like answers for but the trans community frowns upon searching for these answers and its become politically incorrect in the community to do so. I don’t think it’s as simple as just identifying with another sex or believing you are the opposite sex. Theres things going on underneath that lends us to taking in these identities and beliefs and if we want to understand better we are going to need to dive deeper. Unfortunately I’m not an expert in any field that would facilitate this.
@@jonstewart464 Now in my instance I don’t think conversion therapy would do anything but make GD worse since I grew up in a time when trans was unheard of and was already trying to talk myself out of it which only made me bare having GD but didn’t actually alleviate it like transition did. Historically conversion therapy only made people suppress themselves which made them socially acceptable. It made the people around them happy but not the person themselves happy. I think we need to take people in a case by case basis and help them in whatever way is going to give them the best outcome.
@@RubberJunk1 Thanks for replying, really well explained, much appreciated. Do you know about the well-established research by Dick Swaab (great name!) into the neurobiology of transgender/transsexualism? There's an excellent podcast ('The Dissenter') on here with Dr Swaab. Robert Sapolsky has some good videos too describing the studies. A very different perspective to Helen Joyce. Must be frustrating to see how persuasive many people find her.
I at the very least don't think gender dysphoria doesn't exist; I'm not a psychiatrist. I do have my precognitions that it's misinterpreted trauma, but it'd be wrong for me to advise or accuse someone such. I don't know everything, I'll never deny that. I did actually stumble upon a professor's video discussing differences in post-mortem brains of trans people. It's evidence there's something biologically different, but he didn't say the causes were understood, and certainly didn't say whether they were medically or self diagnosed. The thing I'm against is self-identification. People are fairly good at knowing something's wrong when something is wrong. They are very bad at knowing what the problem is, and worse as to what the solution is.
The audio is terrible.
Every trans person is a medicine to our insane society and it is legitimate public policy to raise the number of this medicine to this society.
The argument of ‘being sincere’ in identifying ‘as’ a woman is nonsense. There is no ‘genuine’ state of ‘being trans’ that qualifies a trans woman to legitimately pass as a woman. The term ‘as a woman’ means LIKE or as if. Pretending to be, or acting as. It is not actuality or essential/existential.
The irony is that from an existential point of view, they are women on a higher dimensional level, not just from a social and biological point of view, they are more real women than most of us who are not trans, that is the biggest irony of all, because they have not objectified themselves, but subjectified, which is exactly what gives power and freedom to all of us women on earth. This is why they have been such a threat to patriarchal colonizers who think someone can own man or woman like a land or car. Which is why people have been weaponized and divided over this, because they have reduced what is a woman to a material object, and this is reflected back in the way how mother nature is being destroyed, it stems from this same pathology that is so prevalent within the transphobic cult, besides narcissism of course.
@@angelageleneWhat babble you speak 😂
So, only men ... can be trans women? Why's that then? Can't women be trans women too? If not ... why not? The very essence of the arguement is that the difference between men and women is not that they are men and women. It's that they 'feel' like a man or a woman. But ... what is a man? What is a woman?
Women are adult human females, and man is adult human male, simple and every sane person knows this to be a fact. You can not change sex. That is a lie that should not be affirmed as it is forcing others to pander to a fetish, drugging, and mutilation of children is profound abuse and must be stopped now. No males, no matter how they identify, should ever be in any space set up for females full stop period
Exactly. And how can you say you feel like you are the other sex if you don’t know what it feels like to be the other sex? You can say you are not happy in your body, you can say you’d like to be a woman-but you cannot say you are a woman if you are not, and you cannot say you feel like a woman. Only biological women knows what it feels like to be a woman. In addition-a woman is not a thought. A man is not a thought.
Have you read the book SOUL SEX: Alchemy of Gender and Sex? It was written by a shamanic healer/trans person who transitioned in the 1960's. Plenty of shamans and psychics were able to locate gender identity within the 6th dimension, it is what takes precedence over the social gendering of the biological sex which many of us believe should be completely eradicated from the face of the earth, and certainly not used on gendering of little babies after birth, because it disconects them from their body due to enforcement into an outside polarity existing within the society, whereas our true inner polarity has its own balance, and when it is forced on us, it can rebel against its own body, this is how dysphoria can develop. However, gender identity developed in utero is I think the highest point of who we are, it is the instinct of the body that drives our whole life. It is the core essence of who we are literally. Trans women have been changing sex for over 100 years now, it is factually possible and real, because sex is a diversity, and not binary, that is why they know very innately what it is like to be the opposite sex, because they are born in the opposite sex, that is the fact confirmed by multiple evidences of how gender identity is developed due to hormonal exposure. Im sure plenty of materialistic people would not understand it, because they see life in a binary way, these people are soooo lost.
Birth, puberty, monthly menstruation for several decades, menopause, death = women. (motherhood and grand motherhood not included, since not all women become moms) Birth, puberty, morning erections, growing beard, deeper voice, stronger muscles, declining muscles, lesser potence, death = men. (fatherhood and grand fatherhood not included ... ) This whole range of differences can be imagined as having similar feelings towards the experiences in the important stages of life. But it's in no way sameness.
It is both and neither. Obviously there is a biological component or i wouldnt have had the conversion therapy to cure me in the 1980s. Also compulsory heterosexuality is an ideology. Trans is very much a trauma response
I'm a big fan of Helen Joyce but this interviewer is seriously creepy.
I totally disagree with the 3 assertions by JH. Some of us have gone through life pushing through, puting up with abuse and ignoring our feelings as a guide. Also, someone like me was naive about people's goodness and has had to learn the hard way that some people are evil and should be avoided (boundaries). I'm Gen X, but I'm still alive. People like me are ignored by everyone. The Narcissists get all the attention and the situation is described as it they are the only ones who exist. If one person is throwing their feelings around, they are surrounded by others who are shutting down and denying their own feelings and needs. Some people actually are victims and need to accurately describe theie experience with abuse.
I’m sorry, your comment is incoherent. What three assertions do you disagree with? Should it be surprising you are Gen X and still alive? Did you intend to comment on this video?