The Psychology of Attractiveness
In this clip of Dr. Peterson's conversation with Naomi Wolf, they delve into a fascinating exploration of how societal norms and cultural shifts have influenced the perception of attractiveness between genders throughout history.
Watch the full episode here: Ep. 351 - • The Marxist Slide from...
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There’s a difference between sexual attractiveness and desiring a life partner. When your society is degenerate, it’s all about lust.
Unfortunately these delusional feminists will learn the hard way that men don’t care about their PhD, assets or power. Quite the contrary.
At the lowest level. And you can’t broadbrush the entire society with that brush. I know many people in their twenties who are making sound moral choices for their spouses.
@@VodPJ24uEgkkZT for those that still have values and morals, that’s not the case. Maybe you’re watching the wrong crowd.
@@cheesygal @mcorbitt didn't say that current day society is at this level of degeneracy, nor the opposite -- Society does seem to be more becoming of this way, though.
It’s about finding the least unattractive partner rather than the most attractive. When society is degenerate, there are no 10s. There are 1s-5s, so if you find you a 5, it feels like a miracle.
It’s not that finding a man we find handsome doesn’t matter to women, it’s that finding a competent, generous, caring man matters far more. We literally rely on you guys. Thanks for what you do 🙏🏼❤
Aweosme comment, encouraging to hear as a man.
This seems to match my experience. How many people reading this have been to a party where a guy who is fairly unattractive and unimpressive physically, but has a ton of personality and is confident and hilarious and makes people talking to him feel important has women fawning over him all night?
thank you for your comment its quiet uplifting.
My husband is my best friend. Makes me laugh everyday. A wonderful provider and protector. A fabulous father to our kids (our first is mine from a previous tryst) Is great in bed! He also has a double chin and a beer-gut. But he has kind eyes and a winning smile. He is everything I never knew I needed. His handsomeness grows because he is such a good man and an awesome partner. Looks aren’t everything
@@danihoney7087 perfect catch!
Physical attractiveness gets attention and draws you to someone, but as you get older you are more willing to look at all types of people and have a more open mind, and mental chemistry means a lot
I watched a wheat waffle video he showed research and stats about how like 70% of women even consider a guy dateable if he is shorter than her so you guys do care about appearance a lot
@@madhavmathur4008 It has to do with procreating. You will find in the animal kingdom, the females tend to want to mate with the strongest and physically most aesthetic (in the case of birds) male because she wants strong (beautiful) offspring. The case can be said for humans too. They want taller guys so their offspring have a physical advantage over others. There is the odd occasion where a tall woman will be with a shorter guy but you'll find that he's affluent most of the time.
@Ashtarot77 that is probably true for the most part. I am close to 6 feet. I have never gone out with a man taller than I am, at best 1 inch under and at worst 6 inches shorter. I have found that if I feel the man's protectiveness and his masculine traits and kindness I have little problem with the disparity but there's truth in your statement. Who knows what people have thought of me with certain men ...
You have no choice dear Laura! to do so because your "market value", as a woman, decreases dramatically with age.
Yeah because you no longer can get the attractive person
It's the overall package: certain level of physical attractiveness, confidence, genuineness, competence, character, and compatibility
As a woman who's lived around a lot of girls and women for almost 30 years now, I can attest to the findings of the researches that Peterson mentioned. Women like competence and reliability. I can't remember women swooning over a man over his pnis size or shoulder length, but rather how good he is at something, and how sweet he is toward us. That's why you see beautiful women all around fall for guys who are questionably attractive physically Edit: Guys, I'm not saying women don't like good looks. What I'm saying is it's less of a priority for us. We like competence and reliability much more than pnis size and shoulder length. Which is more or less what Peterson mentioned and to which I am supporting. Cheers
Naomi Wolf seems to admit that this is the case in the full talk, but she claims that men seek these exact same things in women. To be fair, a lot of women think like this, probably because men are typically not very picky. If a large enough number of men are choosing women who have higher socioeconomic status than them, then surely they can make the conclusion that men follow the same pattern of attraction? That's probably their line of thinking. But, as a man, I really dont think that this is the case. Men arent picky, but that doesnt mean that these are the traits that are attractive to them.
I could see these assessments she made as a 20 year old girls fantasy and certainly women love men in uniform for those reasons of shoulders. And I enjoy the research on women time of month and what they prefer in mates, facial symmetry etc it’s so fascinating. But I agree that the superficial things aren’t long term solutions for these women and not a good strategy which is why women want competence. Exactly. Thanks for sharing.
I sense that you’re a classy lady who would be shocked to know how boorish and masculine many modern women have become. They sit around and openly discuss the men they’ve slept with the night before and every detail of their penises. A masculine woman is a huge turnoff to a masculine man, but that’s what society has done
On some level I didn't understand what that conversation was really about. I recognize perfectly well attractive men just as I recognize attractive women. I don't think anyone would deny that men and women both like attractive people. However your desires sum up to 1, the moment you desire something else as well you have to balance it. I guess you can be super picky, but you could be super picky about just one thing also. I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with this, so at some level I don't understand the nuance of what they were really arguing about.
The majority follows standards of the environment they grew up in. Then there're the minority who's well qualified to know what their true self actually desire.
She literally presented no argument. Just disagreed based on her feelings 😂
Exactly😅 God, that was disappointing, respectfully
I was a bit disappointed tbh, I wanted to hear some actual counter-argument, but there were none. Not even in the full talk, she just disregarded statistics and made claims based on her own anecdotal evidence about "young men now wanting older, wealthy women" and that "men are just as attracted to competent and wealthy women, look: they appreciate it when women pay the bill".
She has a point. No matter how logically sound and reasoned the theory's conclusions are, you have to look at the data. Your theory does not exist in a vacuum. Now explain the scale of current transgenderism to me, from an evolutionary biology standpoint please. You can't. It's a business thing. An unconscionable business thing.
Yes, she “feels” that the science doesn’t concede with her elevated value as a 65 yr old in the sexual marketplace
@@_Lumiere_ you have to hand it to Jordan for not having a Channel 4 moment with her! He exercised immense restraint
You can tell Dr. Peterson is confident in his beliefs and arguing in good faith by the fact he invited someone who disagrees with his conclusions into a discussion
it's so refreshing to hear a feminist being so kind and respectful to someone she disagrees with! no screaming or throwing names. Very well done on both parts! enjoyed watching
indeed it was very unusual, most of them use irony and ad hominem attacks
But she didn't present any valid argument! What good is it that she's feminist???
@luciasaunders9736 she did present arguments, she said that vision is outdated and not accurate because they don't ask the right questions. She can't present data from studies that haven't been done. She gave examples of aspects should be analyzed but aren't.
@@milaycastillo5723this is a circular argument and very common with the left True communism has never been tried etc
@@Dreamin995 because she is a feminist, she can see where the problem is. "Valid arguments " means here that she presents the same type of argument that he presents. Since those don't exist, her answer is not vewed as " valid" even though it is. "True" comunism? What's that? What makes it true? A theory is not a truth. Anything actually taking place IS a truth. There has been different kinds of comunism. There still are, 5 of them. They are true and 1/4 of the world population recognizes them as such.
When someone says "respectfully" three or four times in a sentence prepare to be disrespected.
😂😂😂
Exactly!
Jordan Peterson is an intimidating person to disagree with, even if you respect him. I don't blame her. She did overuse the word, yes, but she was thinking about what to say. (Where "respectfully" became the filler word.)
@@jacobshirley3457 That's a good point. I'd be a little nervous myself. You had really better have your ducks in a row if you're going to disagree with him. He really does think things all the way down to the bottom.
😂😂😂😂
I raised my daughter as a single mother, but there is no way I was able to do that on my own. My sisters and father were pivotal! I had to put my pride aside for their help, and my daughter is a well rounded, successful adult because of them.
Sorry, she was a child. How could you have raised her as a “single mother”? You raised her to be a single mother? We’re talking about a kid. Wtf?
I believe she meant to say she was a single mother who raised her child with the help of family
It takes a village I always said. I have always tried my best to help my daughter, who was a single mom. My granddaughter is amazing. We all stepped up and helped.
@@user-zz5je1ry1oshe was a single mother 😂
Single mother households are not ok
Jordan, you are the reason I got myself in school to continue my education, and am now pursuing my PsyD in Clinical Psychology 😌 Thank you for all that you and contribute.
Same same. Nearly there too! Good on you 👍👍
That’s awesome! Not sure what area of the country you live in, but mental health is such an underserved area of our society. I work in a busy ER and we struggle to find placement. Please go out and make a difference! We need you.
Prime example of how little a repetitive usage of the word “respectfully” adds to showing respect. Especially when compared to somebody who listens and answer according to what they’ve just heard, not according to their own bias.
she understands his audience will see her pushing back on his crackpot evolutionary science will be seen as disrespect.
Respectfully, they do list those attraction markers i.e. height, broad shoulders in men in the evolutionary psychology literature. It's literally in the authors book she said she's very familiar with, The Evolution of Desire by David M Buss.
Yes. She picks and chooses which traits and facts fit into her feminist/ analyst indoctrination- then fabricate extra “facts” such as, respectfully, youth and fertility are “out of date, respectfully” - respectfully
Oh that's interesting. So she's not so familiar with it after all
@@big_red_machine3547 😆
This are the most basic things taught in the subject lol
@@dll7658 I listened to the full length podcast yesterday- twice- looking for sympathy for her. She’s very well read on the subject of evolutionary biology, however that doesn’t mean she accepts science. Instead, she tries to “mansplain” how biology and the vast majority of the research is sexist and distorted. So she rewrote history and science to further empower her readers
Is there really an evolutionary basis for mate selection? After a nasty divorce, I looked for advice in the Bible and found this in the New Testament: “Treat the older women as mothers and the younger women as sisters.” So I decided to test this. I got to know several women as sisters/friends without any hint of sexuality. The relationships, as people first and women second, were surprisingly satisfying. It helped me to understand women a whole lot better. When it was time to remarry, friendship was near the top of the list. Of course, physical attractiveness was a strong element as well. This seems like a much better foundation for lifelong commitment and, so far, so good. 37 years and counting.
I've heard a great advice: "Treat women as your male friends". It does seem to work lol
@@segueoyuri Makes me thing of the memes "When you used the same humor with the boys with a girl."*Shows Saul Goodman getting arrested.
@@segueoyuri Errr…that needs some major caveats to be a valid postulate. Some of my (male) friends would happily get into a fight with me just for the hell of it if we ever wanted to! I would avoid ever thinking of treating my wife like that! xD
@@kooldudematt1 that's not a postulate, friend. It's not a pronouncement made with philosophical thought and analysis and proper logic. It's just a rule of thumb. And I've met some women that have told me word for word they liked to talk to me because I made arguments fun. They just got in fights with me just for the hell of it, to use your expression lol maybe your wife would have fun too if you get into an argument with her (obviously not fist fighting like you do with your mechanic friends) just because.
That's a very nice statement. It sounds like you rose above any resentments you might have carried following your experience (which you describe as nasty, so it would be natural that both parties would have carried resentments; which can be very overpowering) and did some work on inner reflection which takes some control over our human intuition to "bite back", or "lash out" metaphorically. That's great, and I'm glad it has worked out well for you! Treating women like sisters is a good practice. However, when sexual attraction and/or looking for a mate comes into play, I'm not sure about how one might segue behaviors for the former into the latter! I haven't given that one much thought yet! With regards to one of the replies about using humor the same way to female friends as to male friends. This is of course not the same as how one would treat one's sister. However I feel it is important to concur with the cautionary element here from my own personal anecdotal experience. While in trusted circles being included within male circles has been both insightful and enriching, a small handful of experiences within circles of people I had not gotten to know and had assumed trust have landed me into some very unfortunate consequences
I am a woman. I have never, at any age during my adult life, counted the things this woman describes as important, as important. Honestly, she speaks like a person with an agenda, not focused on what is true, but focused on making a point that is intellectually important to her.
“But I’ll wait for you to finish” AFTER she already interrupted him mid sentence. People need to learn how to have a conversation and listen to everything someone says and then respond in stead of thinking of your response while the person is still talking.
Right, exactly. Good catch dear.
I read her book back in the day, and I thought it was great. Fast forward a few decades and I am exposed to evolutionary biology/psychology and behavior genetics/personality, and now I realize arguments based on claiming that people are socialized to behave certain ways are bunk. Of course women find certain things attractive. Both parties want an attractive partner (preferentially slightly more attractive than they are), but that’s mutually exclusive without some sort of subjectivity. You both can’t be the better looking partner. Somebody has to trade down. And the person who has more to lose if things go sideways is more willing to lighten up on the looks thing if she can get someone with good character who treats her well and will be there for her and the baby. The fact that modern women have been brainwashed to think casual sex with hot guys is the way to direct your life are being fed a bunch of crap that is leaving them feeling that they are missing something. Because they are.
Not go head to head, but heart to heart. Heart has its own brain according scientists, but heart and love isn´t based on logic.
John Gray says estrogen makes women more emotional... When woman is under stress estrogen makes her 10 times more notice problems in her environment, and talk about the problems. I wonder whether estrogen can be the reason women are so critical about men´s appearance. Maybe when she doesn´t feel stressed out, she is more willing to overlook problems and be less critical. Maybe they should do a study about women who practice yoga, meditation, metacognition. Maybe calm women find everybody beautiful, caring, nice. maybe the hormonal aspects of body create the delusion about other people appearance and also addiction to negative emotions is distracting to people´s thinking process.
No swooning here, never been attracted to hot guys; for some reason they are a total turn-off. ick. I like cleanliness, and easy going guys with excellent self control - no temper tantrums or retaliatory get-even types. ugh.
Yes and it is not a trivial something. It is the essence of life.
My parents were born 1917 and 1920 - and they raised me to know what an idiot looks like - sexual abandon is not only morally going to wreck you, but on a mathematical basis by hump ing those who hump others who already humped others, you will wake up in your 50s with HPV-16 sparking head and neck cancer, and the cancer treatment will kill your immune system - you now live in horrific agony. That simple. I know of a surgeon who shagged around in med school and got dead at 56. He was in a rage at the hospital he helped run but of course, all too late.
Loved the respectful discourse of opposing views. No one got mad, only engaged.
lol no need to be mad when the other party is wrong
@@21Kikoshi true
She was definitely peeved and on the defense. Even just the way she SAID she was disagreeing with him and “NO OFFENSE” was rife with her emotions being triggered by what he had said so calmly…..
@@edithtierce8209 Also her constant interjection of "Respectfully...." and then being unable to actually refute what Peterson had just side (while being unwilling to accept it) was insufferable.
the fact that she turned it into a debate when JP wasn't even debating and talking about something else💀💀💀
Actual conversations and not fights! We need more of this in our interactions with other people~ Well done to both!
Regardless of their ideas and opinions, I am pleasantly surprised to see that they can have this conversation like adults. They were polite and respectful and they both probably learned something because of it.
You are surprised? 🙄
Sadly, the only thing I learned from her were her ideas and feelings. Unfortunately, she did not tie these to any facts. I listened to her opinion, but she taught me nothing and did not engage my mental curiosity. I found her failure to produce intellectual interaction disappointing.
According to Wolf, the beauty myth refers to the idea that a woman's value is primarily based on her physical appearance, and that women are expected to conform to certain beauty standards in order to be considered attractive or desirable. This myth is perpetuated by various industries, such as the fashion, beauty, and advertising industries, which profit from selling products and services that promise to help women achieve these beauty standards. But…I tell you what, if make up were to be banned today, you’ll see a drastic difference in selectiveness. It’s the truth. One thing you can’t escape is evolutionary biology.
You nailed it in your first three words- “According to Wolf”
Makeup is banned though. 80% of females on the street look like a perfect Kim Kardashian clone. Perfect. I don't dig that, at all. I didn't even know what that was, before someone pointed it out to me. But I sure didn't like it. It's like, I can't see your face. The hell?
@@That-Bond-Babe Yes. My grandma always told me "make-up is for older women and unattractive women who need it".
@@yCherkashin it's false advertising.
@@mik569 While it can be used for touch-ups and blemishes, I don't agree that it is only for unattractive women. However, I do understand the concern about individuals who use it to completely alter their appearance and look like a completely different person. And this is completely subjective, women who prefer a bare face and moisturizer are way more appealing.
Let's not bash the respectful lady too much, she's engaging in honest debate with JP, he wouldn't want to see her insulted in the comments
Nah I wanna see somebody get bashed. Ya effin "Gallagher"....
She’s not being insulted, but critiqued. No one’s immune to criticism…
That’s a really nice way to put it, you are right she’s entitled to her opinion regardless of whether we agree with her or not and JP didn’t seem to have any issues with her disagreeing with him.
exactly. there are so many chlildren in the comments who hate her for having another opinion. people need to calm down
@@adtoxic3344 An opinion rather typical for the solipsistic fem1nine mind.
Even though seemly many people on this comment section didn't realise this... but Kudos for this specific video for having people with different perspectives actually respectfully having an actual conversation on the matter in a way that we can learn and collect knowledge on both sides. We have never needed that so much than nowadays, because putting things into 0-1 perspectives sound really popular and brings attention for being easy and flat to mentally digest, but reality and science is more based on continuing questioning than on answering. 👏👍 That's how we evolve, life's too complex to cheers for things as if everything was a soccer game dispute between two teams.
Except that one side had nothing to offer but unsubstantiated opinion and ideology.
@@alaricgoldkuhl155 No - the problem with this clip is that it is not the entire conversation. You've only been shown the section where it appears so - after all it's Jordan Peterson's clip - and I do like him, so no partiality there. We never got to hear the part, where she was actually saying what she meant to say!
@@ssiegreen5292exactly!
It may be teaching those under fire in the ragged landscape of dating and living hell of marriage. (Potentially). To the rest, it's old ground ... and well understood. Naomi carries on but is an observer in the science not a participant - so that she "reads everything" hardly matters if she only wants to make ideological responses. Her attempt to reply was cut off, when I wanted to see her outline what a non-scientist makes of what was a very much science-based inquiry by J.P. She went for what she hoped was a shock tactic - dick size. And in J.P.'s eyes I could see "oh, no, don't derail what I mean to be a serious talk".
Women, in my personal experience as a woman, have 2 categories of partners: 1) guys we find attractive and want to date as teens or young adults 2) men capable of providing the stability we desire to build a future and have children We might adore the men in category 1 but we will always prefer category 2 if given a choice. Category number 2 in my experience as a woman covers the following points: A) Economic dependability - the wealthier the better as long as we consider this wealth to be stable and socially acceptable (as an example: some would consider a rich drug lord a good choice while others would not) B) Social dependability - is he responsible and caring? If so then he would be a good partner to have children with. Different women in different societies look for different qualities though so you can't generalise other traits. A brave man in an oppressive dictatorship might get himself killed by speaking out against the government, so even traits that are otherwise considered admirable might make someone less desirable as a potential partner. C) Health - you have to have some very significant advantages to make a woman consider having a serious relationship with a very sick man D) Lifestyle and Culture - women want a man they can spend many years with while raising children and we have certain views of how our children should grow up and what kind of life they should lead. If a man fulfills certain things we would prefer to see in our children - be it talent, manners, hobbies or social norms - he will be desirable. Again, this is subjective. Also: just because a woman prefers something in a man that doesn't mean she'll fulfill that same requirement. As an example: a woman from Poland would absolutely raise children with a French man, actively encouraging her children to be culturally French. That doesn't mean she has to be French. She might not wish to raise her children as Russians with a Russian man however as her polish culture has historical reasons for being less accepting. None of the factors above are absolute, of course. A woman simply pays attention to and feels drawn towards those whom she considers to be potential partners because they fulfill enough prerequisites. That's where attraction starts. A man can be ugly or poor or mean, as long as he fulfills enough desirable requirements a woman will consider him as a partner. To a 30 year old woman in a war torn region whose family hardly ever has anything but grain and vegetables to eat a 50 year old cashier from Spain might check enough marks to be desirable enough for her to fall for him simply because with him her kids would be able to grow up in a peaceful country and go to school. With women it's all about what ifs and potential dangers. Why is a guy like Andrew Tate desirable? Well, what if he impregnates her? He'll pay child support, giving her economic security. What if he (inevitably) finds another girl? Well, then she doesn't have to deal with his arrogant butt anymore and she is free to find a more dependable man, with more money in her pocket than before after having a lot of fun holidays and parties she didn't have to pay for. So for a lot of women there is no unacceptable what if scenario. Why is the electrician from the same town a woman grew up with in a similar age group desirable? She knows him well, considers him to be a good person, he has a stable income and likely the same or very similar cultural background. That makes him a safe option to have a family with. The same woman could consider both of these men potential partners for very different reasons.
once you being to desire the second type of man, you're already out of your physical prime, and your opinion starts to become more irrelevant. another problem is that the second type of partner will never elicit the same genuine raw passion and lust as the first kind. and, above all, it's this what the male ego desires, together with providing and offering safety. so it's a long regurgitation of what everyone already knows
@@gottmttunsk3502They’ll marry the second type then go cheat on their husbands with the first bunch. Mandatory paternity testing and getting rid of no-fault divorce would be a good start.
I know in my own experience i have been extremely unattracted to men who are wealthy, successful, and extremely handsome. I have been unattracted to men who are respectful and kind. I HAVE been attracted to men who have a heart, who are not attractive, who have a passion for something, who want to help the world, and have genuine masculine qualities. My point is, just because you are good on paper doesnt mean a woman cant see through and pick up on subconscious queues that you dont have the best intentions. That is number one, above all else. You must be a genuine person.
For the record, would feminist analysts be on board with a study delving into labial size as a marker for female attractiveness? Or would this produce potentially undesirable conclusions?
Feminism + any science seems to be incompatible. Her entire argument was " I don't believe in the validity of any science that contradicts me, and "I don't look at any science that contradicts me."
She would almost certainly interrupt you to disagree and say some fancy words like tangential.
@@ranna6738 then go on to completely poo-poo the argument to showcase her own ignorance - on top of her non-existant conversation skills. How can a woman her age be this awkward
Haha yes exactly, or the tightness of the female vagina… it’s an absurd objection from her. Imagine the outrage. She’s almost proving his point. Another issue is that what a woman says (or even thinks) she finds attractive and what she actually finds attractive are two completely different things, which makes it extremely hard to measure. She proves this point with how she can sit there with a straight face and say that women aren’t attracted to men who are of high competence and social status. It’s just absolutely baffling. This stuff has been known for hundreds of years..
Well that would be absurd because I doubt it is a marker of attraction 🤣 But she was comparing to the fact that breast size is included. I'm not saying I agree with her though. Physical attraction to me personally was always less important than intellectual and emotional attraction. I had my choice of mate. Men have found me more attractive than I thought myself to be. But I would not have dated a muscle man who was arrogant and immoral. Moral virtues loyalty competence and intelligence are all more attractive. And I didn't try to find a rich man. Only a man with initiative and sense of responsibility. I am in my early 50s and have been married to the same man for 26 years. Things have changed I realize. But I believe people would have an easier time finding a suitable mate if they would go back to traditional ways. Don't be shallow and fickle. And stop being so promiscuous.
My doctor told me when i said that i am the common denominator in three failed marriages and i have to face that. He said my problem is that i have not found my intellectual equal and that you need that for real happiness. I have come to believe that it is the absolute truth. You can not be happy if you can not talk to the other person. No matter what their attractiveness is.
Communication is ultimately key - we are intelligent being, is what sets us apart from other animals - so it makes sense that connecting intellectually is just as important if not even more important than the physical aspect.
Women aren't looking for equals but superiors. And men aren't looking for intellect in women. It's a tertiary thing at best.
that's some giga cope
@@netaisarker4991exactly
@@netaisarker4991giga cope lol
I'm convinced that Jordan Peterson is capable of explaining anything in a way that makes so much sense
He's just equipped with a sharper sword than most I guess, the way he slices through to the gist and gives us an inside look behind his technique of slicing. See how hard that was 😂😂
Well, then I'm gonna wait for him to explain the reasoning behind Season 1 patch in Diablo 4
no maths and physics topics for sure
Except climate change (which has been a constant thing but which risks changing for good because of CO2-emissions), and overpopulation (the fish in the oceans do not multiply, the amount of fresh water does not increase (there are problems with over-salination near de-salination plans, so it might not be the perfect cure), and arable lands do not expand just because world population explodes. He loves people so much that he does not wish to see the dangers "people" pose.
I want to hear him explain fixing a toaster, because not even TED Talkers can.
Aren't most people just looking for the best possible match emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and physically?
yes most secure people
yes
no, women just view me as a sex toy.
Lol, I would say so too. It's the whole package
Exactly, that's why beautiful girls are in demand😂
How can penis size be an attractiveness marker if I can’t see a man’s penis when I first see them ?!
Yes women are definitely on display even if dressed modestly while men remain a mystery
I guess I have to flash women on the bus now. Gosh dating is hard.
Lol exactly😂😂
@@DeCapitanOG 😂😂
@@elmamotley7887 imagine accidentally seeing his flaccid penis and being turned off lmao
It doesn't matter how good looking he is or financially stable or whatever, if he can't make me laugh, that's a deal breaker. Humour and a sharp wit ring my bells.
if that "good-looking" man good looking enough in your eyes, pretty much all jokes he will speak will be considerd funny by you. Sure, humor does play a role to a degree, but if you have a good-looking face, behavior doesn't really matter (if you are a young female 16-25).
@@superdavidgangster9791 As a good-looking guy I tell you that it's not true at all. Surely it attracts more looks from women, but the minute you interact with them (even making eye-contact) if you're not confident you just lose them in an instant. Behavior is the number 1 factor to get women.
@@comealsolito804 Keep coping
It’s no surprise women don’t marry for looks. I see a lot of socially beautiful women with men that are not socially attractive in the slightest. It sounds rough - but they likely deemed the man was a good life partner because he was intellectually capable (and/or physically) to provide financially. Looks are really just a bonus for the market in women. Women do care about attractiveness and we definitely have opinions on that. It’s just not #1 in picking a mate. I also would like to add that it doesn’t surprise me that 80% of men fall short in the category of being deemed as attractive by women. Most American men in particular don’t value being fit, grooming, or even coordinating a proper outfit half of the time, and that’s just ignoring the genetic aspect. However, nearly every woman I see puts effort and looks beautiful in some way or another out here. There aren’t enough “good looking guys” per beautiful woman out here! 😂
I heard enough "always'" and "nevers'" from her to put me on guard.
You forgot "respectfully"
For me it was “respectively” about 100 times in the full podcast
JP your too logical and smart for them. keep doing your thing : ) You've helped so many people. Thanks for your time and dedication in this crazy crazy world
yeah was happy it was about 10 min longs ...
I hate being this guy, but: "You're"
She tried to sound intelligent, but failed miserably. JP you're too smart for these clowns.
He is a sold out puppet. do your research
Define "these" or is it just all women..?
Every time she said "respectfully" i sipped a glass of whiskey. Now I am down 5 bottles
The number of times the word biology was uttered also was a lot
I very rarely see a guy on the street and think, "he's cute!" But growing up when I had a crush on a boy, it was always how he treated me that made me like him. With one guy, it took me a year and a half before i thought he was handsome. It's not that I thought he was ugly, it's just that intense physical attraction is not high on my list of priorities. Do any other women relate?
Oh I go for he is cute for sure. You do not know him so it is looks first
😢I wouldn't read her books if someone gave me one
Jordon, you really are incredible. I agree 100% with your analysis of what a woman is looking for in a mate. I basically ticked off every quality you listed as traits I looked for in my husband. Feminists don’t speak for all women. They feel the need to stand out.. 🙄
I feel like many feminists, like Naomi Wolf here, actually agree with the analysis. The difference is that they incorrectly (in my opinion) assume that men are equally attracted to the same things. As evidenced by their full talk.
In this particular case I truly stand for this "adversary" of Jordan. I was always accepting handsome men only despite their socioeconomic status. Actually this is something what always flabbergasted me - these "researchers" always perpetuate this myth about women going supposedly for high socioeconomic status, while the real life evidence says the opposite. Just talk to handsome guys: the more outspoken of them say it upfront: it is women who push themselves onto them, not necessarily these guys picking up those women. And handsome guys not necessarily know how to politely say "no" to women, not to undermine their own image of a good and socioeconomically high-status person in their own eyes! I also agree with her when she says why there is no academia research whether women find only certain penis size attractive or not? I have never had huge disappointment with regards to this, but my female colleagues unfortunately had such occurrences and this is really a no-go and a highly awkward feeling. Even if nobody knows how to handle such a situation, such a disappointment. Anyways, as long as I like JP, he is great in case of motivational and societal speeches, but he fell prey to this gibberish "women don't fall for men attractiveness, they fall for high socioeconomic status" nonsense. I am truly happy he invites to talk people who think differently than him. It opens all minds. Thanks to both of them.
@@nalianalianalia It seems like you lower the resolution on the discussion. Jordan Peterson's arguments about the 0.6 correlation and your real life experiences about some handsome men being chased by women can exist at the same time without being contradictary.
@@Jordy_NL Sure, they are not contradictary. What I mean is I have watched this video three times to grasp every time more nuances in what they were discussing. And their discussion is far beyond the initial "0.6" remark by JP only. Feel free to watch it again
@@nalianalianalia I don't dispute your knowledge or nuance on this topic in general. Also I think there is much value in real life evidence, so I believe you in the points that you made. I just couldn't find the arguments in that specific comment that would make Jordan Peterson's argument nonsense.
I love this exchange! It's great to see people discuss important issues that actually disagree substantially on many elements!
Yes, and whoever this woman is, she comes across as thoughtful and relaxed. Other women I've seen debate JP just seem hell bent on aggressively outsmarting him for the sport of it, more about their own egos rather than addressing the issues at hand. Those interviews leave me wondering why JP exposes himself to that.
That’s what intelligent people do. The ones that aren’t so intelligent, as can be seen in the comment section of this video, devolve into personal vent sessions.
I've studied economics, one of the social sciences he refers to when he talks about one of the most robust and powerful findings in the social sciences. It's an excellent example because cognitive ability and grades are looked at as so correlated that it sets the whole basis of the education system and our judgement of whether or not someone is smart. We take it for granted but they are so close that they have become synonymous. It just makes so much sense to assume someone is smart if they have good grades. We even measure smartness/intelligence/cognitive (which is something impossible to gauge) using grades as the proxy (cause we can measure grades) and it's the most used proxy for cognitive ability. Now to know all that and then learn that correlation between male attractiveness in the eyes of women and socioeconomic status is higher than the correlation that makes us assume someone is smart from their academic performance is mad just mad😂😂😂 basically there is a stronger connection between male attractiveness and socioeconomic status than the connection between grades and intelligence statistically speaking 0:16
As a woman I’ve been disappointed by almost all feminists’ brain when I heard them speak about what they believe…
My husband is not attractive to a societal stand point and he has a lot of flaws, including being a big spender of money even when he doesn't have it available. But that's not what attracted me to him. The only explanation I have is that I was attracted to his soul. He is not what I used to imagine my "dream guy" would be but I know he is who I needed in a partner, even with his flaws. It was "love at first sight" for me. He has told me that it was the same for him. At the time he had met me, a girl that he had been trying to go out with for awhile had finally said "yes" to him. And before they could go out on a first date, he met me and that was it. We've been together for 19 years and married for almost 18. And we've definitely had our marriage vows tested, but I still love him as much, if not more than I did in the beginning. And I know that my and my husband's faith in God and following Him is a factor in our marriage and our love for each other. We keep each other going that if we didn't have each other our lives would be very different and I don't think it would be for the better.
So you started loving him because he showed u his competence by other girl saying yes to him.
So you were challenged by another female and it influenced you to take your attractiveness towards him more seriously.
This was such a great discussion. Both let each other talk and only interjected when necessary and respectfully
wow. sometimes i think a big part of life is really just about learning how to recognize blind spots (my own and other's), and learning how to calmly find the best ways of responding to them.
love it! going to watch full interview, well done Dr Peterson
what women actually find attractive and what women say they find attractive are worlds apart.
Don't believe what a women say believe what they do.
Maybe for brainwashed feminists, but not for normal women that have no reason to hide what they are attracted to.
You’re absolutely spot on. How many times have you heard a girl say she just wants a nice sweet guy and then completely shuns a guy just like that who is just far to weak/incompetent to hold his own (and I wouldn’t blame her, but don’t pretend that’s what you want). The fact this lady is claiming that women aren’t attracted to men of high competence and social status is just proof of your point.
@Andrew well yeah, how many times have I heard women say "I don't care about looks" but your bf just happens to be good looking. As if him being good looking wasn't the cause....or "I want a nice, sweet, caring guy" but you always reject then and choose the loud, assertive, dominant one
Just look at all of the men who are married. Because they're the type of men women chose. Single men should be asking for advice from married men, duh.
There's no conversation more valuable than one between two people who disagree but can respect each other. Great eye opening talk!
But she disagreed based on what? She provided no arguments at all.
@@divisadero8859 She criticized the studies and that even though arguments sound logical from a study standpoint, it doesnt mean they apply in real life and that studies might be biased towards conclusion that men want to find.
@@octoking9611 'I don't agree' is not criticism. Peterson even corrected her on her assumptions. She is a fraud and always have been.
2:33 "The ironmaiden straightjacket that's placed on women in terms of the ideal of their sexual self-presentation" that is the best description of how it feels to be constantly subjected to beauty standards and constantly judged and percieved by attractiveness.
But that's everyone. That's not just women. And it's not just for women and men. Animals also are beholden by their own set of beauty markers. of course it's not fiar but that's life.
@@jeremiahnoar7504 Yeah I don’t doubt it, but those standards are drilled even more into women. We’re told our attractiveness is our most value asset and therefore a measure of our worth. Women face objectification in their daily lives, cat calls and fleeting comments from friends and family. You see this evidence on Instagram, commercials and advertising everywhere you go, beauty pageants, magazines, and then how porn and media is so oriented towards the male gaze (less so now, thankfully)… just to name a few. Women are saturated with it, and yet it’s so normalised it goes unnoticed. I understand attractiveness is never going to stop being a natural factor, but to the degree women experience it in our modern society and in terms of a measure of worth is extremely unnecessary and can be improved.
@minaaries I'm not sure how much can or even should be done about that. Attractiveness isn't the highest value but it is a pretty high value in general. That same emphasis on female Attractiveness is also why Onlyfans is so profitable for women. Attractive women also make more tips than men. Attractive women score free drinks. A large percentage of art would disappear if we didn't value feminine beauty. Are we going to dispense with all of that because it's all influenced by our appreciation for beauty.
"Social" media. We are all to blame. I for myself do not use any.
*and do not seek dating someone who wants to harvest banal likes. God bless you, good comment right here!
Where can I find the rest of this conversation!
From the point of view of a woman , I know that a woman in a man is looking for trust , respect and generally for support in life . Sexual attraction is just a part of whole picture because the truth is that we do not live wit the image of man but with his personality . How someone looks on the outside not always goes hand in hand with what is inside . What we call the human soul .
I love how they debate and disagree in a respectful manner
Jordan Peterson (A male), understands women way more than this female does. lol. "It's in the interest of a woman to find a partner who's as competent as she is, or more competent." (HE NAILED IT) ... yes, A caring and protective man who is more mentally and physically competent than I am.
I wanted to hear more from this women & sadly she was cut off, how surprising!
Why does the video cut her at the end? We want to hear more of her arguments, not just JP opinion
" I wanna do something. Just for her!" -Beast Disney's 'Beauty and the Beast'(1992)
My favorite Disney movie growing up
I'm glad to see the majority of these comments being respectful. Dr. Peterson doesn't have this kind of discourse with anyone he feels doesn't have a merited position. It was a good conversation even If I'm not sure I really follow her points.
I think Jordan is king .. and he is so well read that actually he just asks very precise questions.. that end up making the other party shoot themselves in the foot .. it’s really really smart and comical if people understand how hard and how Crazy this
It appears to me that women are also harder on women, including ourselves, on attractiveness than men are on us. We're not just hard on the men.😉
This is definitely true in my experience. Women tend to worry about physical traits that men barely even notice.
Excellent point.
If a woman is striving to be more attractive to men, perhaps making the investment in her health and beauty is very wise. Far more beneficial than attaining wealth, say.
Yeah this seems true for sure. Loads of what women spend a lot of time worrying about is imposed by other women, men don't even care about some things (like certain makeup)
@@big_red_machine3547 Because life is about more than physical beauty. I, of course, want my husband to find me attractive. I also want to be healthy and intelligent. Why would one have to choose between being beautiful or educated? I'm married. We have children. I love being a homemaker. I spent most of my day today doing laundry and cooking. Spending time with my husband and children. I also took the time to do yoga and work on calculus homework.I have been slowly taking classes over the years because I am working towards a PhD.
Understanding phenomena from the root cause vs fitting reality into your ideology.
This is mature & cordial. I would of liked to hear more of her rebuttal even if it's what about isms.
He is totally right. I think she is referring to today’s American family dynamic. The absence of fathers in the home and women or girls having children out of “wed lock”. Just because this society’s values have drastically lapsed ( for a high percentage of our population), does not suggest that the single parent household should continue to prevail. Why continue to “dumb down” our country? Accepting a low standard or Having no standards in regards to parenthood is unacceptable.
*single mother homes
The full video is in his description. Use timestamp 1:21:14 - 1:27:22 to hear the rest of her answer
thankyou
Love ya man, keep on trucking on jordan
Yeah, just watched a video of him talking about the importance of beauty in art and the reaching of a higher point. Nobody desires an ugly city💁🏽♂️
Howcome it just ended? Where's the rest of it? Was pretty good.
During my youth, we were partial to the nerdy guys or at least those who were academically competent. Those are the ones who would be good providers and fathers. Not that we don't admire physical beauty but stability of character is first. In college the men go for more modest women to marry instead of the more more flirty, openly sexy ones they prefer in HS. Bizarre to me that universities here promote a party culture. In Asia, the University is where you lay the foundation for the rest of your life. We didn't date, we courted.
👌 Good comment.
It would have been interesting to hear her full argument at the end. She was cut off.
Attachment styles play a big part in who we are attracted to. The book attached explained why I was making bad choices and helped me land in the best relationship of my life
does anyone know what episode of the podcast this is, I really wish I could listen to the whole thing
how can I watch the rest of this conversation?
I remember in high school we had a classmate who was cute. He reminded me of Jesse McCartney and young Leonardo DiCaprio. But he was boooring and had no personality. None of the girls seemed to have a crush on him, which was surprising especially at how shallow high school girls can be. But there's this other boy who looked like Shrek. But he's the basketball team captain, singer of the band, the student government president, he's funny too, and was one of the smartest in class. He would have banter with girls in a respectful way, and many girls had a crush on him, including me. He's doing well now (he's my friend on Facebook), an accomplished professor and a mixed martial arts trainer.
... isn't it a pleasure to see *two adults who disagree but are polite still?!?*
@@KyleCox404 I don't know how you red my comment and got from there to school shootings. To me there is no connection whatsoever between your & my comment.
@@C.C.369 I'm sorry, I guess I've must have replied under the wrong section. But there were no adults in this conversation, so there is no pleasure. Jordan is a little whiny child that always blames woke mob for everything that doesn't go his way.
This is really interesting, need to find the whole debate.
I love how they argue. Its so respectful.
This woman interrupts Jordan and claims what he's saying is out of date! Lady, the truth is never out of date.
Exactly
Yikes, it was really difficult for me to observe the fool trying to correct the sage. And I say this respectfully.
And then she says "But keep going." Geez! Talk about dishonest debate strategies. She seems to use mostly emotional manipulation tactics to try to score points, and she seems to believe she's scientific and intellectual.
Being a degenerate is out of date as well !
U do know science changes literally every day?
It was interesting to see the respective blinders. Thanks. Understanding the rates and the scales of different changes is no small task. Getting a general idea of the trends involved is a monumental achievement. Running concurrent simulations, some on the scale of 100,000 years and some on generational scale (30 years or so) is nigh impossible if you can't make a machine do it for you. Go do you some statistical Python, that's the easiest way to get a firm grip on any set of data. Logic and reason will only get you so far. You have to futz with the data.
Can you list of those respective blinders ?
I would have love to hear more on her argument
Refreshing to hear a high level intelligent discussion.
she was out of her element get em jordan
Wow, this transcript really got me thinking about a few things! I find it fascinating how it brings together evolutionary psychology and feminist perspectives for an engaging debate. It makes me wonder how much our rapidly changing society, with its evolving gender roles and expectations, challenges the applicability of evolutionary explanations. Also, it's interesting to see the concerns raised about the methodology in some studies conducted by evolutionary biologists, reminding us how crucial it is to maintain rigor and objectivity in research. The whole conversation definitely highlights the importance of considering both biological and cultural factors when trying to understand human behavior, attractiveness, and gender roles. What a thought-provoking discussion!
Your rapidly evolving society does not change the applicability of evolutionary explanations AT ALL.
The intellectuals leading the French revolution thought pure logic would lead to utopia. Instead, we got head chopping Jacobins. The revolution ended with Napoleon becoming emperor and dictator. Leading wars of aggression against most of Europe. Rapid societal evolution won't change our biology in a hundred years.
Evolving gender roles have 50% of women 30 years old childless. Some men are dropping out of society all together. I hope you don't think these things are good.
Ignoring the actual mechanisms within us gets us nowhere. This woman believes we can simply ignore the chemicals that literally create the reflexes that we see cross culturally. Every time a trait is seen across cultures, it is nature, not nurture. That is the entire point of doing that investigation. Jordan is able to integrate both nature and nurture into his view. As an openly biased (feminist) researcher, she willingly admits that she sees no use for nature. Absolutely nuts that she's credible at all.
This reads like an ChatGP generated comment 😂
My primary thought when looking for a husband was a man who met inner characteristics, like being a hard worker, a competent protector, gentle, consciousness, kind, etc. Of course I wanted a man who was handsome, but that was fully secondary in my mind. Fortunately, I found a man who is very physically fit an attractive, but I doubt know if my feelings that he is handsome predated my knowledge of his attractiveness in other respects. I'm sure that if he was less conventionally attractive, I would still have married him. However, for him, my physical appearance, what that expresses about my fertility and likelihood of bearjng healthy children, was of preeminent importance to him. He's happy to have amazing, intellectual conversations with me, (I'm a laywer, he's and engineer), but he wouldn't have pursued a relationship with me at all if I didn't want children, which is a fundamentally a physical capability.
Why did this stop? We couldn’t hear her responses.
I know several women who married someone less educated than them. But up here women don't really rely on men to care for them financially, so other traits become more important (that the man is reliable, trustworthy, kind.. And in fact men doing physical labour are kind of popular among women (carpenter, builder etc). There is something sexy about a guy that is able to build a house... Also I find that couples often have similar level of attractiveness. So I don't think I have ever met any couple where the women is far more attractive than the man. (Scandinavia).
What
@@2legitkong536 ?
I love your suit!! 😍
the advantage of watching such videos is that the comment sections are more informative and diverse, it is indeed a true contributive research
A disagrement in which one part gives motivations, builds concepts and consequences, while the other politely disagrees cutting and judging the other's concepts, giving herself credit due to her knowledge, giving no motivation or justification regarding the statements she is standing against.
When women are asked what’s important, they downplay a man’s looks, yet when scanning pictures on dating apps, women reject a greater percentage of men based on the picture than men reject women. Women are more concerned with a man’s appearance than they admit.
Things worked out better when people weren't feeling like they need a dating app.
Yes, you are so right. I am a woman and wonder why women lie about not noticing a man's looks. Of course women notice their looks, that is how we all determine what we find attractive.
I happily admit to being concerned with it!
I'll tell you something, on dating apps, we also see the environment, if they're in nice houses, cars, restaurants or trips, their demeanor and how they dress says a lot, for example, a man in a suit (says good job), a man who shows photos of the places he visits (who can afford them and travels a lot XD), actually in apps it's the same I would say, we see other things other than just being handsome, and in apps men seem to show off their stuff XD.
@@charmelizabeth8584They r not lying , its about setting your priorities , as a species what's most important for a women is survival of her & her baby , so a handsome face will help to survive her baby or give her support during pregnancy no ,a face will not give emotional stability - the man will give , its the economically secure man , emotionally mature man who will provide all these things , Looks r short term attraction , u someone is visionary & thinks for future she will definitely not value face that much , that's why atleast what i know in my society, small aged girls r more into this looks & hairs & etc... , Ofcourse they r attraction. Its not just true for women even for men also , i myself ofcourse get attracted to a beautiful girl , but since i am not a guy who is getting into relationship for fun etc. , I value a mature , intelligent average looking girl way more than a good-looking immature girl. Ultimately the goal of life is peace happiness , economic security , a happy family :- & all these things will happen due to the social skills & competence etc , the jaw line of a man will not do all these things , & Ofcourse if he has both than he is a dream boy 😂✨
Annoying when someone disagrees and then doesn't offer any evidence to support that claim. She seems to be disagreeing constantly, but doesn't offer any statistical backing for her claims.
Yep, while at the same time making her own claims which she didn't/couldn't back up as well
That’s disagreement in the form of accusation.
Where’s the rest of the clip
Where's the rest of the conversation?
5:31 FACT CHECK There are studies that ask women if they find penis size a marker for sexual attractiveness. A 2013 study published in the journal PLOS ONE surveyed 75 women and found that they rated larger penis size as more physically attractive, but only up to a certain point. Beyond a certain size, women tended to rate larger penises as less attractive. A 2015 study published in the journal Archives of Sexual Behavior surveyed 2,121 women and found that penis size was not a significant factor in overall sexual satisfaction, but women who reported having vaginal orgasms were more likely to rate their partner's penis size as above average. A 2019 study published in the journal Sexual Medicine surveyed 2,121 women and found that penis size was not significantly correlated with overall sexual satisfaction, but women who reported having more frequent and more intense vaginal orgasms tended to rate their partner's penis size as above average. 9:41 So basically the reason she wants to disagree is because she discounts the entire field of evolutionary biology. And the reason she discounts it is because of its possible problematic relationship with contemporary 21st century gender roles and norms.
I think it would be good for everyone if more researchers would pinpoint why the size "does(n't) matter. It seems nobody wants to mention that female reproductive tract is not a bottomless pit but a finite organ which can be literally torn apart by inconsiderate, violent pounding by a hard object. That uteres may dislodge and vagina may bleed etc. etc. Perhaps at least women could start being honest about how and why sex is often so unplyand then something could finally be done about it.
Sorry about the typos - no clue how to correct them yet on my phone...
Competence and reliability, as many women have said in the comments, are high markers for myself, and for the women I know when looking for a partner (if they are heterosexual). Knowing you can rely on a partner and build a life together is much more valuable than looking for the most stereotypically attractive man. x
It is true that in modern day things are very different but that doesn't change how human biology works. We still have the same genes and structure as our ancestors did and that's why we still work like them even if the reasons aren't relevant in modern society. That's why we get the fight and flight response when nervous about giving a presentation.
Why they cut the vid when it was getting better, besides we couldn't hear her reasons, nor JP's answer to that last statement. :0|
I'm a woman and I completely agree with Dr Peterson.
She refers to circumstances that no longer exist however those are the real circumstances. Contemporary society is almost 100% socially constructed therefore artificial therefore fragile. In a grid down situation, those circumstances have always and will always be here so the evolutionary psychologists are correct about nature and nature doesn’t change. So the one being anti intellectual is her.
In a grid down situation, she plans on hiring strong capable men to protect her. Oops, but her fiat currency would be worthless
Exactly this. One can't reasonably expect that 300yrs of wealth and social fashion are going to override 200,000+yrs of biological evolution.
I know that one of the markers for me in finding a man attractive is physical strength. I'm not much into facial attributes as much as the body. For me personally, it doesn't matter the height or even weight, just an indication that a man is physically strong. However, if a man is more on the obese side, I'm less likely to be attracted, but it can be balanced out by height.
I also agree with what JP said about wealth, it's not that women chase wealth but it's a marker of competence. Because I don't care how much money someone makes, what I care about is if he is good with his money and if he will be able to use what he gets (even if it's little) wisely. I dont think most women chase luxury, but rather, are looking for men who can be good stewards of what the Lord entrust to them, that competence is stable and safe, and very attractive to ladies, especially as the lady gets older
There are several studies based on muscle tone and penis size.. what makes men attractive is not a new study...and she is letting her "enviroment" dictate her perspective without including reason.....her political perspective.
This is the best debate I’ve seen in years. The decorum, generosity, ability to highlight aspects of the other perspective while replying to multiple layers. Fantastic work on both their parts. I wish more conversations were like this in this medium. My only issue is with her constantly using ‘respectfully’ as it can, ironically, denote a lack of respect either to the speaker or the viewpoint.
anyone have sources for the correlations Peterson discusses. Such as Perceived attractiveness and perceived SES?
Ms. Woolf is a delightful adversary. Great hearing two adults disagreeing "respectfully."