3 Link vs 4 Link vs Radius Arm vs Watts Link vs Wishbone 3 Link
4 links, 3 links, radius arms, which one is best? To answer that we need to do a deep dive and learn about the pros and cons of each system. Lesser known options like the watts link or wishbone 3 link are great too for the right application.
There is no "one size fits all" answer to this question and making the right decision takes doing your own homework. Learning basic suspension geometry can help anyone that likes to go off road. Whether you are shopping around for a bolt on kit or want to build something from the ground up, this information is important. This video is just the tip of the Iceberg! Consider this episode a homework assignment. Now that you have a bunch of search terms like watts link and radius arm, go investigate the pros and cons to each of these systems! Enjoy the video!
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#offroad #4x4 #rockcrawler
Why couldn't school be this interesting growing up
Lol
You Had The WRONG Teachers My auto class Teacher did road racing we rebuilt the car in class (off-season)
Mechanical engineering classes will talk about geometry and design of link systems. The applications they discuss normally are not this cool or interesting though.
We rebuilt a local's VW Karman Ghia droptop in High School. The owner pays materials, we do the "free labor". body, paint, interior, engine, electrical. I started out with my dad at 10yo on our work trucks, mostly Ford 4x4, as we were a logging company in WA, crew cab meant 4doors for your actual crew...but yeah, I spent plenty of nights laying on cold concrete or gravel in W.WA, often in the rain, fixing Ford Trucks. By the time I got to High School, I knew most of it. We had hydraulic press, welder, bandsaws, and the super important Oxy Torch...the gas axe.
@@ypop417 my diesel classes were interesting but general ed wasnt
"If you're just an average Joe like me or you..." lol I appreciate the compliment Nate, but my TJ on a 4" Rough Country lift and 33s doesn't even compare to what you're doing here. Thank you sir, I have learned so much from these videos!
I like how nate actually gathers his own information instead of just spouting whatever the forums or Facebook is saying
You are a superior teacher, my friend. It’s a gift and you use it well. Thank you for sharing, teaching, and being an all around bad-ass we can share with our buddies and aspire to. The fact that your a family man, and are clear on your life priorities makes it all the more solid and inspiring. Keep it up!
Another great video Nate. A couple points not mentioned that I think are important: Regarding consuming joints on the radius arm; similar to going with a 3 link front versus a 4 link, you can remove (or not install) one of the upper "arms" on a radius arm and eliminate the bushing wear that results from the axle rotation applied when the suspension articulates. When the suspension articulates, as opposed to simple droop, one radius arm will be trying to hold the axle in the static caster rotation while the other will be trying to rotate the axle. This difference in axle rotation is what causes bushing wear. Eliminate one of the upper "links" and you eliminate the different rotation since now only one arm is controlling caster rotation as the suspension cycles. Second point regarding using a double triangulated 4 link on the front to eliminate the pan hard, I don't think eliminating the pan hard is desirable unless you are going full hydro or a rack and pinion for steering. If you are using a linked steering (not rack and pinion) with a drag link, you WANT your axle to swing through a lateral radius identical to the lateral radius that your drag link swings it through. This way there is no bump steer resulting from your drag link swing radius being different from your axle lateral swing radius (or lack there of in the case of a triangulated 4 link). If you have a nice flat drag link at static suspension height, chances are you might not notice any bump steer through the normal driving suspension cycle range but if your axle is not swinging through the same lateral radius as the drag link, it WILL be there. Similar to old front leaf spring suspensions, which have no lateral travel radius, it may only be noticeable with a large suspension travel range but if we're talking ideal suspension solutions, I think a pan hard link is necessary for a drag link steering system.
Love the insight and information. This definitely helps with my current dilemma with suspension decisions on my 88.5 samurai.
I really enjoy the technical expertise of your channel.
Super video. You really do a great job of breaking the information down. Very informative and educational.
Nate you're the best. I see how many of your viewers appreciate the teaching aspects of your vid's as much as I do. Hat's off to you, Brother!
Been thinking about the long arm kit and I want aware of all the other options. As always great material with exceptional explanation. Thank you for dumbing it down for guys like me.
Thanks Nate! Great info. My brother has been running a watts type link setup in his Jeeps for years. We’re working on a long arm JT setup that utilizes one in the rear.
Finally a great explanation of the mystical 3/4 link! Thanks!👍
Excellent overview of the options available !!!!
Congrats, great content. This week I was disgusting about suspension tunning for my Brazilian Troller T4 and you explained all much better then me. I shared your video with my offroad club. keeping doing more technical videos.
Love the videos man, The production quality and even the music in the vids is just top-notch. Love what you do and I hope this channel can take off
Thanks bro!
NATE!!! Dropping knowledge in a bare bones way again! Love your content man- just stretched my JK last month. Wanting to eventually double triangulate the rear, and make a 3 link front. Keep up the solid work!
I don't know about anyone else but your videos like this are super helpful in my planning process thank you
Some of the best suspension info out there! Thanks for the high quality content!
Thanks for watching!
I very much appreciate these videos. Im a mechanical engineer and I STILL learn alot from these. Engineering nomenclature and offroad nomenclature are just so much different, these overviews help me a lot to make sure that in my videos I’m speaking the same language as a fabricator/DIYer. It also helps so that I know which setups are the standard go to’s and why rather then me scratching my head with some of the stuff I see manufacturers do haha. Very inspiring stuff!
I enjoy the concept videos, between you and Busted Knuckle I’ve learned a ton about suspension design
Another great video, you are an exceptional teacher. As always, thanks for the content.
Great video Nate👍👍 I really appreciate your suspension content
I finally know the proper name for the rear suspension on my tracker! So a wishbone 3 link is actually a thing! Nate you’re awesome and please keep up the great content!
Damn son. Thanks for explaining things. I am messing with the links on my daughter's rc crawler and found this so informative and will no doubt watch this AGAIN before im done. There's alot more to making axles fit, go up n down etc than I realised. 👍
You shall now be referred to as "Professor Nate" - I learn more from this channel every week than just about anywhere else combined! Awesome work as always.
As always great video great info ! Tune ability of a 4link is nice to have . I've built several different styles aswell . I usually go with what suites the project the best .
Nate, I watch these videos religiously! I have learnt so much from you, now I have so much confidence to start building. My first project is a 10 ton workshop press I've already started, I'll post photos when done. Thanks a lot man! PS, I'm in Botswana, that's how far you're reaching!💪
Thank you Nate. Excellent content. Learned a few things. Appreciate all you do for the community. 👍💪🤘
Thank you for watching man! And the positive comment 👍
i built a track bar drop bracket on the jeep side to get rid of the bump steer and what a difference it made, almost no bump steer now. Thanks for the info man. I remember before i had the knowledge through your videos i bought a 6 inch drop pitman arm thinking i would fix my bump steer and how much worse it made it lol, the disappointment in spending all the time not to mention money. I would really like to try the double triangulated suspension so i can get ride of the track bar and some bump steer i have at the rear. Cant wait to check out your video on that.
a well articulated synopsis
As you know, your D2 came with a Watts link on the rear axle. Lots of Disco owners swap the Watts link out for a rear Panhard rod as the Watts links are notorious for limited travel so that’s a concern to be aware of.
Thank you very much this was a great video! Helped me plan my WJ a little more.
Good info in a way that makes sense. I'm only starting to plan out a linked build for the semi distant future and now have a bit more knowledge (and a lot more thinking) to do
The Watt's link also keeps the axle centered through suspension travel. It's also more tune-able than a panhard. It works very well in road race cars that are required to use a solid axle.
I really enjoyed this, thanks for sharing 💯
I bought a suzuki jimny 5 door and this video helped a lot
Great job! I am doing a build where I was able to have triangulated 4 link front and rear, and someone pointed out to me that I may have bump steer in the front from the 4 link holding the axle centered during travel, but the crossover steering arm changing angles will make it so it feels like bump steer. I played with it quite a bit and I see what he’s saying, but I haven’t driven it yet so we will see. It’s a KZhead build (ugh) so you can check out what I mean if it’s unclear. Great job on your channel. Keep having fun!
Nice job explaining everything.😎
Absolutely love these videos
Really enjoy the informational content.
I learned something new, thanks for the explanation! #thumbsup
Glad you went over all the possible systems. Thinking about going 3 link in the front of my JL. Want to do a triangulated 4 link in rear, but that damn fuel tank location causes issues. Mine isn't a trailer queen, so relocation is a huge problem. Need time to figure it out. Glad you started your own channel. You seem more relaxed. Keep up the great content!!👍🏻👊🏻🤘🏻
I like these kind of videos! Reminds me of Engineering Explained. Keep up the good work!
You're a great teacher
I have both front and rear double triangulated 4 links. Nice and simple.
The Watts is used on my Alfa Romeo Milano with a rear mounted transmission, It all tucks inside of the Dion Triangle. Its great for a race car.
great video. watts links are useful if the lateral movement of the axle when using a panhard is a problem for you. they keep the axle centered during travel
Ahhhhh! What about leaf springs, shackles and slider boxes!?!? Lol nice work, looking forward to part 2😜
Great video. I thought I knew everything about suspension systems. I was wrong. Thank you
Articulate guy. Good job ...exactly what I needed ...Trying to sort out a V8 TJ that has triangulated four link front and rear that works well Offroad but is almost un streetable
I’m considering the Savvy Mid-Arm for my LJ. I’ve been hearing that it’s one of the best designs.
Perfectly explained
Good video man thanks for the info 👍
"What's the best XXX ?" I get this a lot with car stereo brands/equipment. There is definitely no "best" just "Best for your application." Glad you brought this up.
More knowledge bombs dropped. Great video Nate!
Watts links are awesome in low travel set ups like muscle cars and whatnot. it keeps the axle really stable and keeps the body from shuffling one way or the other like a panhard bar setup. I agree though, it's hard to imagine when you would build one for a 4x4.
The upper wishbone was OEM in Jeep WJs. It is like a triangulated upper links where the axle mounts are at the same point. However, in practice, a wishbone tends to be much shorter than triangulated upper links. There is a company that makes a very unique rear Watt's linkage for a JK with standard or Dana 60 housings. The unique part is the center element is horizontal on top of the axle instead of vertical behind it. What makes the Watt's link preferred over that Panhard rod is there no side movement of the axle...the center is always centered. Ditto for the upper wishbone and a well-executed triangulated links. The problem with either double triangulated links, a wishbone, or a Watt's link in front is the drag link from the pitman arm to the knuckle that will cause bump steer. With a Panhard bar, lots of effort is made to make the Panhard bar and drag link parallel. Full-hydraulic steering cures that problem and double triangulated is de rigueur on rock bouncers and I thought on 4400 class Ultra 4s that didn't have IFS.
That Toyota in the intro looks like a beast!
Man I've been scouring the internet for information on doing a solid axle swap on my Chevy van and there just isn't any videos of this being done. I feel like you & your channel would be the best resource for doing a swap like this and showing how it's done. Would be really cool to see you do a step by step video on how to convert a van from 2 wheel drive to 4x4. Something to consider! I'll even loan you my van for the build 😜
I am just learning how to and where to start on my triangulated rear 4 link with coilover conversion, and front torsion bar delete with coilover conversion on my 2001 Ford Ranger Trail Truck build. I have already begun by recording some measurements, throwing away all of the factory suspension, and ground away the rear shock tabs from the 8.8 rear diff. Now I am ready to purchase the proper suspension pieces & put back together & finish powder coating everything. I just realized that even though I have a solid plan, and i'm not scared or afraid of this, I also accept that I don't know as much about getting the first stages of the ball rolling. I probably need to decide how big the wheels and tires will be. How much lift I want, higher than factory ride height. I was thinking about 4" so I can go from 32" to 35" tires. 16" to 17" wheels. Then I should be able to establish with that information, what height to set the differentials on jack stands and height to set the frame on frame stands, giving me my ride height. Right? Until I do that, I can't establish my driveline angles, thus, cannot weld the tabs and mounts for the 4 links. Am I thinking clearly? Is anyone reading me? haha. It's almost like I have to pretend the build is done, so I know where to actually weld the link tabs. Do most people just go where the front perches for the leaves used to be?
Hey man love your content hope the channel continues to grow you’re an inspiration to me and I am in the process of doing a building and have some questions if you could answer for me ?
Another cool solid axle suspension is the torque tube suspension used in UNIMOGs and the model t and some other stuff (not that practical to build it aftermarket but still cool). And a crazy suspension that just boggles you mind to try to figure out is the de dion suspension (prob mispelled)
After building several 3/4 link rigs at the shop I'm still on leaf springs. Love the simplicity, strength and lack of track bars. And yes leafs can flex! Excellent video mate!
How did everyone like the 3 link? I'm thinking of 3 linking my rear on my 86.. I wanted to keep the stock tank. Have long travlenin the front. And was debating on rear deavers or 3 link
Nate, the BIG advantage to a watts link is that it keeps the axle centered through out the travel of the axle. no rear steer at all.
Hi Nate, love your videos. After im finally able to sell my jk im wanting to get a 93 yj. Id like to do some custom stuff on it and practice my welding and eventually build my rig. My question is, would it be better to keep leafs if im going 35s or maybe 37s or could upgrading to a link suspension be more beneficial that leafs?
Just solid axle swapped the back of my 03 Navigator built everything 1 off custom 8" lift with radius arms 1 1/4 Johnny joints Navigator on 37x13.50 x 24 interco m16's
Super cool information!
Hey Nate, I'm wanting to build my truck to a certain classes specs which only allows leaf springs in the rear an only a two link suspension. I was thinking of doing a set of ladder bars and wanted to see if you had any suggestions. This build is more geared more for off road racing.
Hay Nate how are u doing ? Things look a little wild in your area . We have lots of the smoke working up this way here in BC. Hope u are staying safe. Great videos great content keep up the good work.
The rear flex steer is based on the roll center's distance from the centerline of the axle. It's the same on all suspension designs, the 4-link doesn't have a disadvantage here, it's just that many of the systems out there have tall brackets above a big pumpkin.
I still subscribe and love BleepinJeep but I'm so glad you branched out with this volume of great content. Top quality Nate!
Excellent information
Great stuff man
The watts link is great for air or hydraulics because the axle moves straight up and down as opposed to a pan hard bar that can make the axle move side to side as the car moves up and down
Wtf? Doesn't that mess your alignment up? How much side to side are we talking here? Like an inch?
@@lk6912 depends on the length of the bar and how much vertical travel the suspension has
I had a long radius-arm setup in front. Gnarly flex. But the vehicle eventually developed a terrifying death-wobble. I'm now wondering if I needed to replace all of my bushings. They visually looked good, but were probably pushing 4 years old at the time. I never realized the bushings are a frequent wear item for radius-arm suspension. Thanks for enlightening me.
I'm doing a rear wishbone 3 on my Baja 2by ZJ. I envision myself going 90 through the whoops like a trophy truck... except my 4.0 maybe barely hits 65MPH these days.
The old land rover defender, range rover classic and discovery 1 all used a wish bone 3 link. They always have issues with the ballpoint on the wish bone link to the axle wearing out quickly or with to much flex the boot rips. The mounts to the chassis would also be prone to rust one some models.
I'm building my first jeep in my garage. I will be building a custom 3 link front and rear with pan hard bar. Wish I had some with your knowledge here to walk me through it when The time comes.
I have my kingpin 60 on radius arms, putting a wishbone on my corporate this winter when the 5:1 atlas gets installed. When do we discuss 1 ton Independant? Great videos, you have a gift.
Great info! I have hundreds of ideas about a different rear axle in my 95 Dakota. It will be strictly street and I want handling over travel, your explanation actually confirms some ideas I had. Thinking about long radius arms on the outside of the frame (fuel tank in the way on inner frame) and a Watts link (street suspension, lots less travel and flex). So I was think about getting the front of the arm as close to the u-joint as possible, this gets me to the boxed section of the frame. Arms would be parallel to the ground at ride height, how long is too long? Thinking wheel spin, wheel hop, weight transfer, occasionally go to drag strip, will be “shop truck” daily driver. Any thoughts or recommendations on where to get answers?
Killing it as always
Nate, what’s your opinion on the 3 link rear suspensions people are doing on the JK/JL now, With the third link going directly above the driveshaft down to the top of the axle housing/truss? I’m building a JK on tons and 40s and I’m contemplating doing that setup strictly so I don’t have to go to a fuel cell or something since the JK fuel tank is right in the way.
On the Semi-triangulated 4 link and the wishbone 3 link having the parallel links parallel to the ground @ ride height the roll steer will be minimized. Having the forward end of the parallel link lower than at the axle it will have roll understeer which gives a stabilizing effect.
thanks for answering questions for us mere mortals
Hey Nate! Love your videos man! I have a 96 Dodge ram project that has me scratching my head a bit. It has the Dana 60 front diff with the CAD unit. It also has what appears to be factory 4 link with a pan hard bar. I've been told it's best to ditch the OEM steering due to death wobble and I've also been told I should drop the factory 4 link and go with radius arms. Now this truck is a beast (5 speed, 12 Valve Cummins) but it's main use and purpose is a tow rig (possibly emergency recovery), not hardcore offroader. The reason I'm asking your input is the factory steering, pan hard bar AND all four links are just tore up from abuse and I have zero interest in reusing them. So if I'm going to replace them... Should I stick with OEM or do upgrades? What would you do?
There is some goodies in this video. It would be nice to see the rear axel from RR (not a rolls royal but range rover) The arm lengths in a 4-link system have a purpose as well. But I'm well satisficed with your info
the biggest benefit to a watts link is the lack of side to side push on the axle from a panhard bar, doesn't justify the complexity for a 4x4 but it works good on cars
Many thanks for wrapping up this rather complex topic so easily for us really "average Joes" out there. One question regarding the panhard rod after lifting the vehicle (say 2 inches): The mount on the frame must be brought down 2 inches as well, right? Seems like this gets forgotten in many cases, causing the axle to travel far more sideways than it should.
Could use make the lower arms of the triangulated 4 link to the center of the differential and top bars to the transmission Area
Damn what a solid vid 👌🏾
Nate im sure your highly busy ! I love the channel, I've learned so much . If you see this and would know ? I have a 77 Cj5 I'm rebuilding. I believe the link suspension would be great on it . My question is if you would know if I could link my Jeep? I just don't want to order the joint's and it not work. I'm going to keep doing my homework . This is the only reason I'm asking , I want to run 35s. I want to link it , but I don't want to do any cutting. I want it to retain a classic Jeep look. Thank's for the video's man there great !
How do you feel about radius arms and panhard for the rear? Linking my corporate this winter, and theyre working great on the front.
This is what distance learning should be for every kid in highschool right now... 👊👊👊
Watts link and 3link/panhard in the rear is an option for a truck that's keeping the stock fuel tank and real estate is an option. I've also seen a reverse direction upper triangle link which I still can't wrap my head around.
Wishbone 3-link owner here... No flex steer! It'll flex out like it shouldn't be possible to become that limber, but it doesn't flex steer. I think the people who make these goofy claims should put their credentials alongside their statements. One could only assume that the people who experience this issue are not compensating for the added stressors upon the singular load bearing link. Gussets, tubing, and one big heim joint going back to two polyurethane bushings mounted on the same bolt that the lower control arms ride on. Fabtech figured it out perfectly on the TJ and it is the best thing since sliced bread! I like their design so darn much, I'm borrowing the design for my K5 Blazer... AKA a bigger Jeep made by Chevy.
i think the hardest part of it all is just committing. Im glad there are online computer programs to try and help you figure out some of the numbers
How do you design for squat/anti squat on all of these ? How about 4 bar with pull bar ? Trailing arm ?
Could you please advise me what to choose for a better articulation concerning a discovery 2004? Thank you in advance
Nate. nice and thanks for the good info, they say radius dont flex a lot well that is ppl opinion , i love my be safe and kip the good videos
On a three link let's say if pumpkin housing is on the driver side can you run the upper link on top of the diff or is it better to run the link off of the passenger side where the pumpkin is not?