How to Control a Crowd
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Writing by Sam Denby and Tristan Purdy
Editing by Alexander Williard
Animation led by Josh Sherrington
Sound by Graham Haerther
Thumbnail by Simon Buckmaster
[1] www.jstor.org/stable/24943180...
[2] www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/2494...
[3] research-repository.st-andrew...
[4] www.washingtonpost.com/invest...
When the Wii came out in 2006, someone camped in a tent on the side of the Best Buy for 5 days. I showed up at 5am for the 9am opening. The camper had a notebook and took names of people that showed up. Surprisingly everyone respected that person's list 100%. They announced at 8am that they had 84 consoles and people that showed up after the limit left peacefully. Everyone else formed an orderly line when it was near opening time, by asking others the number they were given by this random camper. People also shared water and sodas with their neighbors in line
That’s bc in 2006 society was whiter, more peaceful, and more trusting
They have shared identity
@@prod.by.13ry4n6damn that whiter part came outta nowhere lmao
@@reginaldmustardbacon5866 unfortunately also expected. racism is so deep rooted.
@@markiel55 And more importantly, this was a standard gathering where people didn't just zerg rush the area. Those who came were not desperate to purchase a Wii, just like those who queued in an orderly fashion for the iPhone, PS2, iPod and even various computer games that had massive launch date events throughout the 2000s-onwards. Hell, I also saw this recently with the orderly manner people queued for Monster Hunter: Rise in New York City in March 2021. The ONLY way crushes happen from a societal point of view is through two points: 1) When there is a harsh disconnect between both the group themselves and the police/security 2) When the time between the start of a crisis and the public's awareness of such a crisis is long and slow Ethiopia and Indonesia have a history of heavy-handed police reprisals due to their shared history of Military Juntas and Dictatorships throughout the 20th Century. This is an example of Point 1. Nothing causes harsh disconnects more than a heavy-handed, punishment-leaning/punishment-happy police response. Especially against people who lack a shared identity with the police (Ethiopians critical of the government's policy changes in countenance to the demands of the rural youth and their consistent disregard for human rights in the former's case. Indonesia's problems with football hooliganism, stemming from decades of corruption in the Indonesian FA and the Indonesian government, on top of the Indonesian hooligan gang's collective influences, being the violent Italian Ultra culture of the 80s, 90s and 2000s and the English Firms of the mid-20th century exacerbating this real and often fatal disconnect and distrust for the latter, something that Wendover fails to highlight in the above video.). The Love Parade Crush of 2010 and the Itaewon Crush of 2022 were direct results of Point 2 when the lethargic reaction to detect that something is not right and a crisis is here from the crowd worsens the overflow of people. It's here, where we get our stereotypical "Nightmare Crush" scenarios.
The key to good crowd control is partying with a strong tank that knows when to taunt or use his other abilities while as a dps you're focusing your fire correctly.
Hasan reference?
This guy plays
ong
the gamer in some of us!!!
This is the way
One of the things I love about concerts is a crowd that's aware of these risks. You often hear people shout "BACK THE F*** UP" at punk shows, or coordinate to shove backwards to ensure there's space to breathe at the front. It's a weird kind of self-knowledge that I'm sure has saved lives, though of course it only does so much without good crowd planning and security.
Was at a Travis Scott concert years ago (far before the Astroworld disaster). Those of us in the front initiated a push back after trying and failing to yell “back tf up.” We were met with a far stronger push forward, into the barriers. A friend broke her rib, and we of course got tf out of there
you hear people shout back the fuck up at every crowded show lol
I have been going to shows for 15+ years. People also pick one another up at punk and hardcore shows. If someone does happen to get hurt, everyone clears a space around them and tries to get them out of the pit. Punx take care of one another. 🖤
@@ripwednesdayadamssaw something like this at a $uicideboy$ show. I just saw the crowd splitting from the front mid song. Then all of the sudden, two random guys are dragging this other dude who looks unconcious through the crowd and the whole time they're just screaming "MOVE OUT THE FUCKIN WAY"
depends on the shows, went to warped tour, I was at the front, some AH pulled his gf in front of me, we were at the gate thing at the front row. Was an awesome rock band, he thought he was doing himself and his girl a favor. he told me to back off, pulled his gf in front of me. I was like fuck it, I'm still at the front. Before I knew it, I was on his gfs back, feet off the ground, she was the only cushion I had between me and the steel railing. I felt bad, but also I made my way back,as the crowd calmed. I had a (new at the time) kickflip phone, was getting a quick video, it fell, the back part and battery all scattered.. but with 3 or 4 people's help they all found their way back to me, and was like holy shit, I love the rock crowd, they all asked around who was this for. Then we got into a giant mosh pit, my brother fell down, I lost him in a blink of an eye, he was older than me! but about 4-5 seconds later I see him pop back up, 2-3 dudes pulled him up and continued like nothing happened. It was amazing, at a real mosh pit they pick you up and continue on, nothing changes, you won't be stomped on or anything, they just help then you lose the kind strangers in the pit. and I've always done the same and never will forget my first punk and rock concerts at that warped tour!
As my father taught me: "Avoid crowds. The bigger the worse. Crowd are not made by single persons, they're made by a lot of people, and thus can't be reasoned with".
There's a second part to that: Crowds can't be reasoned with, but they will move and act in predictable ways. You can plan and prepare for how they will act, which makes them a whole lot less scary. It's like sociology meets fluid dynamics.
@@literallyjustgrass I can't think of a better way to express it, especially the last statement.
Well when the Chicago Cubs won the 2016 World Series there were 5 million people in the streets for the parade! Didn’t hear about many if any deaths or injuries from that!
@@David_Theisen I wouldn't put my safety in the hands of luck anyway.
@@literallyjustgrass Have you ever seen a crowd panic during a fire or other emergency? This is the case where the wisdom of avoiding crowds is applicable. This video is solely about this topic, and in this context, no, they will not move and act in predictable ways en masse unless you are predicting chaos.
I think there's a huge 3rd factor here you didn't specify: NOT KNOWING IT'S AN EMERGENCY. When there's a fire, everyone is "Oh damn! fire!" and is on high alert, mindful of people in pain, etc. When you're in the back of a crowd trying to move up to get game consoles, you have no idea you're causing harm or anything bad is happening, so there's no particular reason to even stop and think about it.
He kind of did though, he mentioned the "disconnect between those at the back of the crowd and those at the front" in such non-emergency cases. 12:48
This is a valid point
Then its just a lack of basic human decency....
@@FacialVomitTurtleFights It has nothing to do with decency, the people at the back have absolutely no idea that they're creating a crush, sometimes hundreds of meters away.
@@KEVBOYMUSIC Yes but pushing without knowing the consequence of the action while knowing that it is something you should not do as most people learn before grade 1.... either A: idiot or B: An animal Its like trying to put the square block in the triangle hole... repeatedly... ever more forceful... with no progress...and it breaks... idk... im usually half decent at seeing different viewpoints... but the whole crowd for a product causing death... Nope. Really dont see how you can defend that. For clarity I really dont care about the peoples death and thats not why i have the opinion that i do. No family members were got got by a tranny trump lover tryna get the ps69.
As a German, when I hear crowd crushes I'll always be reminded of the 2010 Loveparade desaster with 650 people injured (some quite severely) and 21 people dying from being crushed in a narrow tunnel that was the sole entry AND exit to the festival, because the venue was full and people wanted to get in.
The area where the love parade actually took place wasn´t full at all. The problem started with that the concept didn´t work on how people arriving at the area will move away from the entry-ramp so it backed up onto the ramp. When that happened police took over crowd control and made the misguided decision to shut off the flow from the middle of the ramp towards the end of the ramp and then didn´t notice how the pressure from incoming people from the tunnel made the situation critical. All that happened during the shift change of the police which added to the chaos and unawareness and the last draw might even have been the police vehicle bringing the next shift to the ramp, driving through the already compacted crowd of collapsing people. In the end it was for sure the bad design of the entrence/exit through the ramp and tunnels, which was even worsend on that day by the police making the tight design even more tight with closing off an area for their vehicles and then the lack off awareness, breaking down communications and horrific decision-making by the police.
I'm surprised that this wasnt mentioned in the video.
@@WoWShamanifysame
@@WoWShamanify Cause he is just talking about the last decade
Agree. That was the first event that came into my mind
I feel that a simplified (even further) variant of this should be taught at schools, so that in a generation or two, enough people know about the problem to mitigate it. If everyone were patient/understanding enough, that pushing makes things worse, rather than better, even for themselves no pressure would build up..
I've met people who've been taught things at school: usually to no effect!
@@dagwouldI still think if the lesson effect 20% of the students, then I case of a crush, it gonna be something like 20% less intense. Basically from a deadly crush to a tightly packed crowd. We want any bit to be as safe as possible.
School is such an inefficient way to gain knowledge that students must study at home just to pass tests.
Can we get “never ever push the back of a crowd” to be a maxim everyone remembers? Can someone make this rhyme?
Thanks for the explanation 👍I once encountered a situation at a small concert attended by around 7.000 people. When leaving the concert hall through a corridor and a very small exit, (the concert took place in a repurposed school gym) a pushing crowd developed behind me. This pushing back and forth happened several times. Eventually, I and a group of individuals nearby linked arms and created a makeshift barrier with our bodies. We managed to lessen the movement and as more people joined us and started shouting to those in the rear to wait, the crowd calmed down again and left organized afterwards. That was a scary experience, I can't imagine how forceful a larger crowd can become.
Isn't linking arms dangerous for the people who do it, wouldn't it make the push stronger on them? I struggle to visualize how it would help...
It's harder to fall over and be trampled by someone being pushed from behind. You can very easily get piles of bodies with those on the bottom being crushed and suffacated if anyone falls over. Though even standing people can be suffocated and crushed, especially if they are shorter than the average and don't have much muscle mass (so overwhelmingly women)
That was a good idea and good job getting the others to calm down! You don’t want a stampede at all! Unfortunately enough that doesn’t happen very often in other countries! Too many soccer stadium tragedies!! Several being stampedes
"I can't imagine how forceful a larger crowd can become." Irresistible
That plane anecdote is so spot on
DO NOT POST ANY REPLY! DO NOT MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT TIMEBUCKS OR I WILL REJECT YOUR SUBMISSION, JUST THUMBS UP AND THATS IT!
Good
👍
Nice
Very nice
The identity point I think perfectly describes how British people act towards each other on vacation. At home surrounded by other Brits, we barely acknowledge strangers and keep to ourselves but as soon as we are on vacation, anyone British in your hotel you immediately strike up conversation with cus there’s this sense of camaraderie
Well that’s how it is in rural areas too, not many people so you have to deal and interact with them.
@@Azurethewolf168the very reason the countryside is a nice place to live and city's are hell holes
@@Azurethewolf168 Yes of course, I more mean that when Brits are on vacation they will strike up conversation with other Brits for no reason or necessity when at home we are so avoidant of interacting with one another
@@jacobmacdonagh4070 and it’s very rare to find one so it feels like it’s just you and them
@@Th3_Gael yeah, cities are so dense and expensive. The only reason most people are in one is because it’s industrialized and has lots of amenities. Rural areas wouldn’t be rural if they were like that.
I have been working in organizing Hajj crowds since 2010 until now, and let me tell you the amount of work and organization is mind-blowing, and it is a science in itself. The authorities are now working to include artificial intelligence technology to manage crowds, starting next year every pilgrim will wear an electronic bracelet that includes all his personal and health information. Also, through an electronic application, the pilgrim will receive instructions on which way to take, when, where and how to move! This is important because we plan to receive more pilgrims in the coming years.
That sounds really interesting. I hope the project works out.
MashaAllah thanks for your efforts bro
When I was there in 2017 (for Umrah), they had fucking escalators turned on that, day after day, would leave people dangerously squashed at the bottom, since there's a chokepoint right after. Such a basic oversight.
And this was in the main mosque btw
@@ASLUHLUHCE The escalators in the Grand Mosque and its courtyards facilitate the movement of more than 200 thousand people per hour, as 98 engineers usually supervise the operation of 200 escalators. It is not an easy task, and minor accidents may occur as you mentioned, but compared to the huge number that use them, it is considered a success!
This was incredibly fascinating to learn about. I was in a crowd crush scenario a couple years ago at a concert. It got to "shock wave" density but I've always looked back on that memory fondly. I remember feeling weightless as we all swayed collectively to the music. Looking back at it now, that situation was way more dangerous then I knew and I wouldn’t be surprised if some people had gotten hurt or at the very least suffocated a bit.
My dad was at that concert in Cincinnati. He told me it was cold that day but because of the crowd it felt like summer from the body heat of everyone there. He also said he was in the back and everyone was shoulder to shoulder, people would sway back and forth like a wave and you couldn't do anything except move with it, the animation does a great job of showing this. Apparently the rush happened because The Who started their stage testing, and everyone assumed that the concert had started which led to everyone trying to make it inside.
@@twhis9843iirc the Iriqouis theater fire in Chicago had a similar thing. They locked gates to prevent people from accessing certain areas, fire broke out and then masses died because they couldn't get out. Heartbreaking stories
@@twhis9843wow. Must have been terrifying
Keeping the crowd informed would have prevented (or at least, greatly lessened) the crush … The importance of good communication …
Cincinnati: Keeping the crowd informed would have prevented (or at least, greatly lessened) the crush … The importance of good communication …
So people from the sides all the had to do was sway left and right to control the whole crowd from inside
Realizing that crowds are fluids actually let me regain control once during a music festival. I was stuck in the crowd, impossible to move, waves running through the masses, but I kind of saw the dynamics at play. And by simply angling my body and shoulders I could let the waves push me through the masses, not being able to move out of my own power but directing the power the pressure waves excerted on my body. Once I figured that method out I reached the less dense parts of the crowd quite fast.
I took my 2 kids to a firework display, everyone tried to leave at once, thru one gate! My arms were getting pinned to my sides and my kids were getting drawn away ahead of me 1 in front of the other. l managed to call them and grab them and keep them on in their feet with cooperation from those surrounding, (at that point the police had the a second gate opened evidently , the crowd, still dense, started to peel off in 2 directions my kids were in danger of being carried inexorably to the other gate, it was all slomo but the pressure was something else, l managed to lunge forward and grab bits of their clothing and then, the density started to ease, steadily, slowly, everyone calmed down. I talked to a "high up" afterwards, he said they shouldn't have fenced the event and advertised a local event so widely, they guesstimated the numbers wrong. I now look at crowds the way others look at thin ice on a skating lake in the spring. I'll walk 3 times the distance around thank you.
Go with the flow, bro.
Sounds like a nightmare
This is my exact strategy too. Hard as brick but fluid like water.
Taking advantage of the waves can shove you 20 bodies in a direction if you move quickly in the hole they leave, this is how I saw Carti up close at rolling loud
I was part of a human stampede one time. It was super scary. It really was like fluid dynamics; I felt like I was just part of a single consciousness made up of hundreds of people.
I was also part of a human centipede once. Unpleasant experience.
I was a USAHockey Referee, and one of the classes/presentations was on crowd control. It was interesting to hear the breakdown of a team, the teams, and the fans as crowds to manage. That was the first time I learned crowd control has been studied for centuries. The other interesting point, was how a coach, in an elevated position standing behind his players was very similar to a leader behind a wall guarded by soldiers.
I'm glad that you pointed out that it isn't necessarily any one individual's fault, but a design issue. I am a programmer, and I see design issues passed off all the time as "user error", including events like the false nuclear launch alert in Hawaii. The test and real alert options were poorly labeled, and there was no "are you sure" message. All it took was a single, simple mis-click to trigger a real alert instead of a test. It seem like one of the main problems with crush events comes from the people in the back not realizing that their small push is being compounded and hurting someone in the front of the crowd. A concept that we try to use at work is "put the pain on the people causing the problem". We try to design our software so that if someone does their job poorly, that the problems come back to them, rather than be passed downstream to someone else. It almost seems like crowd control needs security officers near the back of the crowd that can work on preventing those in the back from pushing if the crowd density gets high enough at the front.
Exactly. I was thinking that security should start moving the crowd back, but the real problem is the people at the back hemming those at the front in. So you'd need security stationed at the end of the line, with radios, so that if it starts to get bad, they can start moving people back where there's space to move back.
Issue there is it requires more security staff which businesses are generally unwilling to pay for.
Preach. Also a software engineer. UX is important. I like to dog food my own systems. If the system doesn't direct me to do the right-thing(tm), it's flawed. My motto. It should be easy to do the right thing and difficult to the the wrong thing.
@@myriri3687 IMO if they can't or won't pay to do it safely, they should go out of business. People's safety is more important than the profit of a small number of owners.
@@BenjaminCronce can't agree more, I always try to make the UI close to a tutorial, having redirects along the way for the user to realise he is going the wrong way
Hey, a Wendover video about exactly my job! I'm an engineer specialized in designing/planning busy spaces like these, and a in fact a few I worked on were in the video :). Really good overall, I just want to add a couple points: - You said that in a crush scenario the crowd starts to be ruled "by something similar to fluid dynamics" - it's not "like" that's exactly what's happening, the crowd is basically a bunch of water balloons squished together. - The main sign to look out for: if it feels or looks like everyone is moving as one (imagine a crowded wave pool at the waterpark) then it's becoming dangerous. - If you're inside a crush and can't escape, the safest thing to do is to brace your hands against yourself and stick out your elbows. Finally, to quickly summarize how planning solves this kind of thing: it's a lot like designing a car to keep you safe in a crash. You're not going to predict where or why the crush will occur. All you can do is design crumple zones to give the energy somewhere to go, by building doors/walls/fences that will break when pushed enough and not letting people completely surround the thing they want (which is what makes the Hajj so dangerous).
Interesting. One of my first thoughts was to build buffer areas to mitigate crowd crush. For example, in the scenario at the beginning of the video, cordoning off an area around the entrance to the store where people are not allowed to stand. I would think this would minimize the dangers of a smaller-scale crush by giving people somewhere to go if they did run out of room, and people spilling into that area would be an immediate indicator to security and crowd management that a crowd crush was imminent so steps could be taken to mitigate it. Similarly, intentionally adding gaps to break a large crowd into multiple smaller crowds might be similarly useful; if one of the sub-crowds pushes past the barriers and security, that could be a sign that the behavior of the crowd, if allowed to continue, would lead to a crush. Another idea I had was to engineer some kind of "escape paths" that people would not be inclined to use normally but would allow for pressure inside the crowd to be relieved and give people a way to escape a potentially dangerous crushing event. An example might be an elevated surface, maybe 4 feet high, running along the perimeter of the area and leading somewhere that's unlikely to be surrounded by a dense crowd.
Thank you for your really insightful comment I love when someone who works in the area comes along
What’s your job title?
It’s interesting that when people seem to be moving as one it’s becoming dangerous. One of the greatest experiences I’ve ever had was being at a concert at the Aragon Ballroom in Chicago (~5,000 capacity, all GA standing) and noticing that exact thing about the crowd…provided I wasn’t too close to the front. Because I also remember that the closer to the front you got the more suffocating and unenjoyable it was. Needless to say the LSD quite enhanced that feeling of being a molecule of water in an ocean, but it’s fascinating to know that that perception spot on. I’m curious if the venue was designed to allow that phenomenon while never letting it get into the danger zone.
Also, this topic ABSOLUTELY fascinates me so if you know of any good books on the subject I’m all ears.
I blogged about getting crushed by the exiting crowd after President Obama’s inauguration in DC. It was terrifying. It was also a design issue; in this case, limited exit routes pushed everyone to one exit and the combined law enforcement agencies completely underestimated how many people would show up to that historic event.
I really appreciate that you include citations, and reassuring to see JSTOR links. In a click bait and sensational-heavy landscape, finding great content that resists those sensational trends is a relief.
As an Indonesian, I really appreciate when you mentioned that the cause of death in Kanjuruhan tragedy is mainly because of the crowd fleeing from the tear gas, not by the riot itself. Because, although all of independent and international journalist & investigators said so, but those authorized institution always stated otherwise, even without any supporting evidence.
almost any official institution in our country will desperately face-saving from their incompetence when bad things happen. They would never apologize, never have I ever heard once.
I also read that riot police that were sent there were unaware of FIFA's regulations banning the use of tear gas in stadiums (HK's police use of tear gas in a subway station during pro-democracy protests in 2019 was also seen as similarly questionable I remember), & that the riot police were sent in response to a pitch invasion (meanwhile my country's stadium probably prevented invasions by placing the lowest tier of seats ~3m above the pitch, which might violate today's fire evacuation building codes though)
@@lzh4950 Just a quick note: It is right tha the FIFA does not allow the use of tear gas (including pepper spray!) by Police Forces in Stadiums, BUT this only applies to Matches played under the FIFA "Rule of Law", like Qualifications for the World Cup and the World Cup itself. National Football Associations can themselves allow the use of these weapons, as can be often seen in Germany, where the police regularly uses pepper spray as a way to control groups of fans. No question however that the use should be banned in all stadiums worldwide.
It's wild to me to hear that a corporation can tell the police what to do. but now that I say it out loud it doesn't sound that crazy
I was at a P!ATD concert and it was impressive to me that they had several moments where they told EVERYONE to take some big steps back. They actually paid attention.
Anthrax stopped a concert once and asked for the house lights until the front of the floor was all good and ready for them to start back up. Clash of the Titans, Philly, 1992.
This happens very very often in heavy music, alot of artists will straight up stop shows in the middle of songs to ensure their supporters are well looked after
completely unrelated to this video but oml I went to the last tour they went on last year and it is so funny how much brendon urie hates singing I write sins not tragedies. He literally didn’t sing it and relied on the crowd to sing it while he sighed into the microphone
Panic! Was my first concert actually! There was a girl passed out within 10 minutes of $uicide boi$ set and they stopped the concert, let her get carried out and made everyone take a step back, they made everyone take a step back multiple times. I highly respect every band that does this 💚
I always prefer if people write out the full names of things rather than use acronyms, simply because it's best to try and be understood by as wide an collection of us internet users as possible. I'm assuming on this occasion you're referring to Panic! At the Disco, but that was lucky to me. Cheers!
about 10 years ago I went to Shanghai for the world expo, where the daily visitor entrance was about 300,000 people. The crowd control was top notch. One of the entrances I used was a bridge about 15m wide, which one would think would be a horrific location for a crowd crush. Everyone had to go through a security scanner and a bag inspection, which could have been a major pinch point. Instead of just a series of booths plainly stretched across the width of the bridge, they staggered the security booths with controlling lanes diverting entrants. So instead of maybe 10 security stations, their solution enabled them to have over 30 booths stretching down the length of the bridge. The booths weren't in just a single long diagonal line either, you could walk in between 2 booths to get to another lane division to reach another booth further down. Even during highest traffic period you never saw more than 15-20 people at each station. I marvelled at the thinking that went into the layout. Now once you were in the park, that was a whole different matter. People queued for hours to enter pavilions and queue jumping was rife.
Interesting how shared identity defines the level of crowd cooperativeness. It's even more interesting how increased competitiveness led to more fatal scenarios. Almost as if the more competitive the scenario, the less people identify with others.
You mean like in capitalism and/or billionaires? I think the same principles are in operation here.
When the choke point moved back and caused 2400 to die heading to the Hajj, that feels weirdly familiar to anyone who has tried to fix traffic in Cities Skylines. You fixed one choke point, but now it just reveals the next bottle neck. Except crowd control planners find that out with body bags instead of red areas on a screen.
It's still red areas, just on the ground instead.
So what's the final solution?
@@user-op8fg3ny3jban most of the city centre non essential traffic, encourage walking and use ~trains~
@@user-op8fg3ny3j Death squads and deportation to concentration camps
@@doomsdayrabbit4398 cold
This video might save a life some day. I've found myself in crowd situations that left me on the verge of panic. Fortunately, in those instances I was able to sense real danger early and leave as the back pressure started to build. In the early stages the crowd will still permit your retreat. LEAVE! Once things get tight nobody can move to allow your escape.
I remember being at a house party that was crazy over crowded once and thinking "man if there's a fire, there's no way I could get out." I left very shortly afterwards and never went back.
Yes l was caught with 2 children at an open air event. The sense of helplessness is astonishing. Changed my behaviour overnight. Never ever been in a crowd since. Once your arms are pinned to your sides ....
I remember watching the GOT “Battle of the Bastards” and the scene with the crowd crush was so realistic that it nearly gave me a panic attack. Memories of being caught in a crowd crush at a Municipal Waste show came flooding back. I couldn’t move, my arms were pinned at my sides and was just carried with the movement of the crowd. I felt panicked because falling down would almost certainly result in getting trampled. People were so tightly packed that it was difficult to breathe. I felt exactly like Jon Snow in the BotB scene when he’s gasping for air. Luckily I managed to get out of the crush but it was deeply traumatic and a feeling I will never forget.
ok
ok
Having an up inclining ground might help since it'll not allow humans at the back as effectively push ahead & most will have a natural tendency to fall back rather than ahead. Also, maybe some elevated breaks like up & down stair structure row might help to create breaks inhibiting the transfer of energy from the back all the way to the front. It'll make them into groups. I think there's additional factor that we're missing- emotions. Those who are going to a concert, sports, purchasing something for themselves are quite excited, emotionally high. I wonder if there's any difference between the crowds going to music concerts led by different kinds of humans (excitement arousing vs calm celebs)/genre. I think slow, maybe sad music concerts might have less of such happenings. Has anyone checked?
Some years back I was in Washington DC while their hockey team was in the stanley cup and I went to the street outside the stadium to watch the game (that was in another city) on the giant screen outside. During the game there was plenty of room on the streets, but after it was over everyone tried to leave and it turned into chaos. At one point I was squished between the people around me very tightly and my feet were lifted just above the ground and I was carried by the crowd probably 20 feet before I was able to feel the ground again.
As a Cincinnati native, I knew it was only a matter of time before the Who Concert was mentioned. I grew up hearing about that event (I think my parents may have actually been there) and so knew about the horrors of crowd crushes since I was pretty young. Even to this day, at least of the folks around my parent's age, unassigned seating is looked at with apprehension in the city.
I went to many concerts at Riverfront Coliseum during the '70s. That venue was an accident waiting to happen. I'd been in line there and been able to raise both feet off the ground without falling due to the crush. Had the concert been a week later, I would have been on school break and been there. I saw the Who many years later a few weeks after John Entwistle's death. Pete was awesome, and we could tell that they really felt the loss. They were a mixture of brilliance and tragedy. It's pretty remarkable that any of them are still alive.
WKRP taught by his.
I remember that night. Heard about it on the breaking news as the concert was going on. My stepmom was there and I remember hoping that she wasn’t one of the deceased we were hearing about.
I hear dehumanizing crush, I think of the Spence bridge. Good lord is that a disaster at all but 2:30 in the morning.
Same here. I was hoping he'd mention it as the perfect example of this sort of tragedy. I was only a kid at the time, but it was all anyone could talk about for days after in the region.
I was in the middle of the 1999 WTO protests in Seattle, and the conclusions spoken in this video are very accurate. When the police dispersed the crowd, the yells of, "DO NOT RUN!" from the crowd, despite being trapped between a hail of rubber bullets/shotgun beanbags and a cloud of tear gas that was fired over our heads, was the only thing that saved people from injury. The police created a situation that could have been pure panic, but the civilians in the streets were the ones who showed restraint and allowed everyone to escape safely.
The cops escalated a situation? That doesn’t sound like them!
@@petergriffin8767they have a job to do, and half the time people are protesting bullshit
@@RealAICCl exactly, the police aren’t just shooting and tier gassing civil crowds, they’re doing that to crowds such as the blm riots when they were all deviating from their “cause” and just burning property
@@RealAICClThey showed up and further escalated with violence
@crazyghost1277 they have a job to do, and people have a right to complain when they do that job poorly. Sounds like they're ignoring all the psychology that this video is covering.
As a Swedish citizen the first example of the people refusing to form a line feels so absurd, it's something that's deeply ingrained in our culture here
Hey from the uk, same
I think sometimes people panic e.g. when a train arrives at a platform but more people alight from it via the door you were queuing at instead of other doors, so you have a lower chance of getting a seat compared to other passengers who queued at other doors instead and were able to board the train earlier (after people had finished alighting at those other doors)
I lived on a road from Leppings Lane in Hillsborough in 1989. The 97 dead were caused by the crowd dynamics you described but dozens were saved by fellow Liverpool fans pulling them out of the cage and Forest fans running across the pitch to offer help and using advertising hoardings as stretchers
14:43 As someone from the UK I'm chilled that Wendover made no mention of the 1989 tragedy , but instead a more recent repeat at the same stadium . Quite determined to show that this isn't an historic problem of 1980s hooligans (as a major UK newspaper infamously painted Liverpool supporters) - or drug culture like with The Who disaster
@@tourmaline07 Meanwhile my country used to run a campaign called "Men with long hair will be served last" as they were associated with drug culture & hippies
That plane anecdote is so spot on. One time a train I was on malfunctioned. We were waiting for a long period of time before the announcement to disembark was made. I was instantly able to find one other person who was going to the same place as me to split an uber. Another person overheard and asked to join, everyone was super friendly and I didn't even think about the fact that if the train hadn't malfunctioned we never would have spoken a word to each other.
I think two other reasons disasters don't trigger crowd crushes are that they push people away rather than towards, and trigger concern for the safety of oneself and others. Away rather than towards is fairly intuitive, since moving away from a concern will naturally spread the group out unless funneled through choke points. As for conern for safety, when you're at the back of a crowd trying to get into a desirable area you're just thinking about where you want to be, not about how the crowd might be dangerous to people further in who are compressed by the mass of bodies, but when you are in a burning building awareness of the fact that the situation is dangerous for everyone present is at the forefront of your mind so you will naturally tend to be more aware of how your actions might further endanger others.
Also, most doors open outward so that the pressure of a crowd will force them open in an emergency evacuation. But when trying to get in, this means the pressure of the crowd holds them shut even after they are unlocked. I want to say its part if the US fire code but would have to check to be sure. Probably the simplest way to minimize crowd crushes is to extend the timeframe available to pass through a choke point to reduce urgency. It could be in the form of letting people get to their seats 2 hours before the concert actually starts, or it could be phased sales on black friday, or extending the number of days available to participate in a festival.
@@jasonreed7522 Yes. Doors opening outwards is part of US fire code. In 1942, there was a nightclub in Boston, The Cocoanut Grove, that caught on fire. In the panic to evacuate, the crowd crushed against the inward swinging doors, making them impossible to open. 492 people died in the fire, and it was estimated that those doors not being able to be opened caused around 300 of the deaths.
A contributing factor may also be the participants' perception of how dangerous the situation is. It's a common piece of wisdom that people tend to be in the most danger when they believe they're safe. Because when they believe they're safe, they start to become careless, and inattentive to the danger that they and others may be in. Thus, it's possible that people going to a sporting event, or a music festival, or a shopping sale, may not realise the potential danger inherent to the situation. And so may be more likely to unwittingly cause harm to other members of the crowd. While in a disaster situation, people are very aware of how much danger they're in, and so may be much more careful about protecting themselves and others from harm.
More like a singularity and collapse
@@jasonreed7522 Idk if it would realistically help or not, but you could print arrival times on concert tickets staggered in order of where your seats are. People would be given priority if they arrived in their assigned timeframe. Of course this would mean there would have to be enough staff to process people quickly enough. And again, Idk if this would even work because I feel most concert goers would be too used to arriving hours before the concert in hopes of getting there before the rush starts
One of the worst incidents like this happened in my home country - germany - there was a parade called "love parade", which was a really big event until the incident in 2010 - there was only one main entry/exit which also functioned as main emergency exit. As there was starting panic on the festival area people started fleeing whilst others still tried to enter - they met in the entry-/exit-tunnel and 21 died and 652 died. Since then this event doesn't get organized anymore.
We have a massive rock festival in my town that I go to every year. It's always impressive 1.) how many people come, 2.) the chosen design of the barricades, such as aisles and diverters, and 3.) just HOW MUCH security is there. Looking back, it makes sense that there are aisles of empty space barricaded off up and down the crowds. It helps divert flow and get rid of divers and crushed people. I never really though about that. And like of course there's gonna be a lot of security at a 150k+ plus event, but during the bigger names, if feels like there's 1 security for every 7 or 8 people. So much security. And there's exit signs EVERYWHERE. I guess it really does take a lot of planning to design good traffic flow w/out death
I started attending rugby games at Cape Town Stadium this year. I didn't really understand why security would force us to use the gates close to our section. In my mind, I thought I could just walk to the section once I was inside the yard (the area surrounding but still within the stadium complex). This video helped me understand the significance of what initially seemed like a minor, unnecessary inconvenience. It also made me appreciate the good design of Cape Town Stadium. For example, after you pass through the gates, you encounter a huge open space and only have to walk a few meters before reaching the stadium itself. The layout allows for fairly easy movement, even when people are standing around on a big match day.
Similarly, I went to a concert where the venue used completely separate doors for GA and Assigned Seating. The main doors were all for the assigned seats, while the GA ticketholders had to use a door on the opposite side of the venue. This way, security could easily route GA directly and quickly to the open floor area while everyone else could meander to their assigned seats after getting a pre-show beer.
Also alot of stadiums open up at least an hour and a half ahead of time so there isnt a huge number of people still waiting to get in at game time
@@evenfisher0188Its true
Stadium complex? I find it quite simple
Loftus also does the thing where you can only enter from your section, but as soon as it's half time is soooo chaotic. Then there's no control, even when there are more feet moving at one moment then than any other. Good to see a fellow South African in the comments! 😊
My PhD research was on simulating crowds, and I must say that this is a really well researched video. The content itself is put together so well.
I've played total war a lot - I, too, know how crowds work. witness my glory.
@@spongmongler6760 your glory is too immense to witness... sorry but i must look away... and yet i can't,,, oh the blinding, beautiful light of your glory... please at least put on a hat to reduce your glory by 22%
@@blah2blah65coward! If his glory is like fire, than we must burn!
Can i ask whats your phd subject
@@tuyetsoi4672 I'm not the OP but crowd dynamics is a big topic in my civil engineering course.
I was in a recent crowd incident at my school. We were waiting for the professor to come, and we (15-20) people all stuck together in the door. We easily blew past 5 people per square meter so really, nobody could move. Unfortunately, me and this other guy named Matias were the core of the crowd, and when they saw the professor coming we went to the ground while everyone else dipped. We almost got caught and sanctioned.
Loved it. best explanation. just this year, I had helped saving 2 women near Kabaa from a crowd collapse. There was a feeling of competition as well as cooperation both.
I see this in public transit every day. Going onboard any crowded commuter train (which has nonassigned seating) always has some kind of hostility in the air between the travellers, because everyone is at odds with each other to find a seat before they're all taken. Even worse with a replacement bus - now it's a battle for the seats AND everyone is angry at the extra hassle.
Seems like a british problem. Ppl r getting too fat and lazy. Ppl used to stand just fine.
I used to have to do that as well, but nothing dramatic ever happens, right? Seen some ugly things, but I'd describe them as not that dangerous. Public transport should be a prime example for out of control crowds that checks all the marks from the video, and yet it isn't.
@@TheKlaun9 I think the competion element is lower - if you don't get one of the 500 games consoles you get nothing (loosing out on making money if you were planning to resell), if you don't get a seat on the train you stand for the journey or have to take the next one. Also you only really see numbers large enough to cause issues at major stations, but they serve multiple routes so you don't have the issue of everyone trying to get to the same place at the same time.
@@kaspianepps7946 I wanna live where you live. I'd counter that with: If you don't get a game console, you're life is actually improving or you get it a bit later. If you miss a train and you don't live in a major city where the next one will arrive in 10 minutes, you can get into serious trouble and may even lose your job or something along that line. But I totally dig the argument that it's not enough people, that might be it. It's only a couple hundred on the worst of days, not a couple thousand - that may not be enough pressure for the situation to get out of hand quickly. Also, the people mostly see what's going on at the doors - so they don't push beyond all reason
This is an issue with public transit that is never brought up, especially with the ‘urbanists’ on KZhead. Rush hour still exists. It’s just your body getting crushed rather than being in gridlock on a freeway.
With your citation of new research on crowd psychology questioning the idea that people become dehumanized parts of a collective in a crowd, it'd be interesting to revisit your riot control video that claims that exact thing, or it'd be similarly interesting to see something on why might riots still happen according to this research!
Riots still happen because the people are not getting what they feel they need, riots are very easy to explain and understand.
The situation changes when there is violence introduced to the equation. A protest is fine and respectful, but tit-followed by a disproportionate tat from the police can lead to panic, because personal safety is now at stake. The more threatening the police and the less united the protesters, the higher the likelihood.
@@Fractured_Unity yeah that’s true but violence was always part of the equation. That’s what the protesters don’t understand. Your protest is inherently going to be violent? Yea is it going to be physically violent no… not necessarily but violence is absolutely the mode of change.
that why police training at riots has to be really good because all it takes is one disproportionately forceful thing and people get scared or aggressive, even if riot police are there to protect the protestors too
@@nade7242 the police are the ones that start violence 99% of the time
Went to Radiohead in New Orleans back in 2017. Had GA SRO Floor tickets. My wife, daughter, and I got there very early to wait out the day. We were among the first dozen or so lined up. The fandom had their own way of managing the crowd rush. You get there early and check in and an early bird superfan marked you on a list and numbered your hand. Then you could wander around for a little while until the afternoon when everybody started lining up for the show. Security at the venue even agreed with the system when some very late arrivers tried to bully their way up to the front of the line. Everybody lined up in hand number order. Doors opened. Then you made your way to the floor to get as close to the stage as you could. Worked really well
This is why I bob along with crowds even if im trying to get somewhere. Treating yourself as a part of the crowd means no one has to move much to get out of your way.
One thing I noticed in almost all of those incidents is that there was only security at the front of the crowd, not dispersed through it, where with a little communication they could disperse the crowd and back it up.
I agree, the main thing is to get the people at the back to move, without making them feel like they are losing out
.... and no wavebreakers installed as you see them in larger festivals everywhere, at least in europe. A good position of those also allows security to have more points of safeguarding in the actual crowd and recognize an ill pattern more quickly. Those wavebreakers have more than once been a point of refuge for me during dynamic crowds, even if it was not dangerous, to be simply able to take a rest from the push and the dancing.
Yeah, because being a solo security guard in the middle of a crowd is a super safe way to earn minimum wage. 🤷♂
@@BatCaveOz Who said they'd be solo, who said they'd be in the middle of a crowd, and who said they'd be earning minimum? Lot of assumptions on your part
Another thing I noticed from all of these incidents is that they were all caused by impatient assholes pushing a crowd from behind as if it will speed the crowd up.
Moshpitting is an interesting case study. People literally join a pit to push each other around and act chaotically yet, in my experience, pits are some of the most collegial spaces. There's a sense of shares responsibility since this madness is only fun if you know you won't get seriously hurt or lose something, and if you can exit at any time.
I guess it's essentially adult play-fighting. It's like _"Hey, let's hurt each other for entertainment! (But not too much.)"_
Lol. People 100% get hurt in mosh pits, stepped on, pushed, hit in the head by a hand, pickpocketed, it’s not collegial, it’s just not fatal.
Moshpits cause problems for those not in them! Especially if they're near the pit barrier, as people moving away from the moshpit increase pressure for those at the pit barrier.
When I was younger I was involved in many, and never anyone got hurt. People helping others, shifting and moving around to slow down things when they were getting a bit too much.
There isn't a sense of panic in moshpitting. Its just people having fun, so its kind of different.
Fluid dynamic is EXACTLY what it is!!!! I've been in 2 scary crowds. One was a delayed concert and people getting rowdy, the other was a horrific design of having 2 tiny exits. In the concert the crowd started swaying, people fell to the ground and those around tried forming bubbles to provide enough room to get them up. The other event had 40,000+ people exiting an event at 2 exits, each of which had 2 gates wide enough for 1 person at a time. After a long day of everyone drinking in the sun! The crowd started trying to push over fences, some were trying to climb fences. We found a spot off to the side and waited till the crowd thinned. I was sure they were going to riot.
I remember, about a year or so back, participating in the Ottawa protests. Canada Day, I think it might have been. It was the strangest feeling. Like we were all connected, but apart. In all honesty, it just felt like a massive Canada Day celebration for all the ones we had missed. Best time ever.
I have a friend who is the director of operations for a major music festival brand and he was telling me about the steps they have to take to try and minimize crowd crush, and how they have to make various contingency plans based on crowd psychology. It's crazy the amount of planning and effort that goes into crowd management (because at the end of the day, if the crowd doesn't want to be controlled, then they can't be controlled).
There isn't a single crowd in the world that wants to be controlled. If there is a large group of people that wants to be controlled, they are no longer a simple crowd. An example is a marching band, or parade in general. Tons of people, but this wouldn't be the first thing you think of when you hear the word "crowd", right?
I've been to concerts before that were general admission and when someone fainted in the middle of the crowd the singer/band noticed, stopped everything, and told medical staff where to find the person while also alerting everyone to give room to the person and make a path for staff to get through. Each time this has happened it took less than two minutes for the rest of the audience to move aside. And then once the person was helped the audience would just slowly shuffle back to where they were previously, without people thinking "this is my chance to push closer" and causing a crush. Just pure cooperation and order. Mind you this was always at venues that only held at most a few hundred so not those huge numbers you see at festivals where it's a little harder to maintain control. Also it requires musicians to actually pay attention and to actually care about what's happening in the crowd since they have the best vantage point.
Meanwhile Travis Scott just keeps playing his doodoo music while people die
Yeah, sometimes they really don't care. I was at a 1975 concert a few years ago where Matty Healy appeared to be drunk off his ass and high as a kite. Partway through, he jumped down off the stage and started trying to clinb over the barriers between the crowd and the equipment in front of the stage, which might very well have caused a crush if we hadn't been lucky. I was a little ways into the real thick of the crowd, maybe a quarter into it, and even then there was this almighty surge forward that I couldn't but be taken by. I ended up probably about half the distance from the stage as i had been previously, with rather less room to move around, and for all that I still enjoyed the rest of the concert I still to this day think the man needs to have a bit of cop-on.
I went to a day festival recently where one of the acts started a mini mosh near the front. The security were so hot though that anyone who was excessively pushing, shoving or being pushed (a couple of drunk people that had no idea what was happening), a team were there within seconds to pull them out of the crowd. We were a few rows behind the mosh, so we could see the whole thing unfold. It was very impressive from the security team's perspective! Every time this happened (about 3 times during their whole set), the band would check in with the crowd between songs.
@@Supermoneygang12that was what got me. If I recall correctly, he even incited the crowd further.
During the 25th World Scout Jamboree, they had 50,000 participants split into four entrances, each entering through a 2 person wide sidewalk on a bridge. Due to the amount of ambulances that night, they had the road on the bridge closed off. Whats even weirder is they only had one side of the bridge open. Luckily, nothing majored happen. There was pushing from the back, but everybody remained civilized. It took us just under 2 hours to walk half a kilometre. In my area, everybody stayed in line. Nobody was told to stay in line, but we filled up as wide as the road. Honestly, I had way more of an experience standing in line, than actually attending the opening ceremony.
My father was at the 79' who show when he was in highschool. He would talk about crowd control tactics anytime classic rock came on the radio. It's so nice to find a video that goes into more detail than he ever could
the crowd pressure phenomenon is fascinating and teaches you physics of pressure between molecules, same concept, bouncing aruond pushing the one next to them with no space to move
fluid
there is one key difference though. the molecules in liquids will disperse very evenly, water for example will take up as much space as it needs to alleviate pressure. crowds on the other hand will push and push because everyone has the same goal of getting to the hotspot. pressure will build up in the hotspot until people get injured.
molecules dont stop breathing or have bones to break
Worked in the Carnival business for more then a decade and was taught "if you don't plan crowd control, the crowd controls your event" Spent many hours seeing how it was done in both a security way and a sell to customers way. Started to see how it is planned for in cities with transit, rail and roadways thou never for enough volume. The physiology behind the influences to human nature are amazing to see in action.
I've actually been in a crush like this in person. Nurburgring after an F1 race they made an announcement that buses would take any willing visitors to ride down the track in person. They expected 200-300 people to show up, but instead it was around 5,000 people. There was a giant 3 lane roundabout where the pickup point was. Only 3 buses would show up on rotation to take people. Each bus holds around 50 people so 150 per rotation could get on. There was no security in place, no security rails, or indication where to stand so everyone just created a mass around this roundabout. As soon as the buses would pull in everyone started rushing to get to the bus doors. My father being a rather confident and sometimes rude tall man at 7foot tall had my brother and me (14 and 16 years old at the time) stand at the outskirts of the crowd as we had a better view and it was starting to rain and we could be under an awning of a nearby building. for the first two waves of busses we just stayed under the awning and watched people get on buses and it wasn't anything too roudy. By the time the second bus came it started getting a little pushy in the crowd. Then by the time the third bus came everyone was realizing they would have no chance to see the track as it was taking about 30minutes per rotation and getting dark fast. Everyone including my dad decided this was the time to try to make it. He told me and my brother to follow him as he used his arms to forcefully split the crowd in a swimming motion in front of him and make his way from the back of the crowd to the front bus doors. My brother was behind him and surprisingly they both made it as the bus was about half-full, I kept getting pulled back into the crowd as the people closed off the gap between me and my family. I watched as people including elderly and children where getting crushed and screaming and I had also been crushed a few times and received many elbows to the ribs. I watched as an old man was accidentally elbowed to the head and fell down and even stepped on because the crowd was being unwillingly pushed closer together by the outer layer of people pushing in. Me and another guy tried to help the old man up but were pushed away from him by the waves of pressure from the crowd rushing inward. I was then somehow was able to keep pushing through the crowd into the gap my father made behind him as I didn't want to get left behind, especially in this insane crowd. I was luckily able to squeeze through and was the last person to make it on the bus. It didn't feel good doing that but there's a certain desperation and adrenaline rush that I feel many including myself had in this moment. Quite a few injuries and tons of ambulances showed up and they cancelled the event after that. Crazy to witness, and a traumatically poor crowd control planning.
This is one of the only public videos on crowd crush that exists. And it’s honest. About time.
I felt a little prouder to be a human during the first 1/3rd of the video and the info you were covering. In truly shared and horrible moments, people help each other. The largest crowds work together and I just find that amazing.
It reminds me of something Mr. Rodgers said in one of his shows. He told us (5 year old me and all the rest of the viewers) that when horrible things are happening on TV, look for the helpers. No matter how bad the situation may be, you will always see people trying to help.
You don’t have negativity bias. That’s refreshing.
@@RadenWA it's important to be positive :)
Go read about the Station Club fire - one of the worst in history and well documented. There are many other examples as well that show people absolutely do NOT always act in solidarity. Worse, there are many situations in which people do get themselves and everyone killed even when they started by acting cooperatively and that actually causes disaster because they do not leave in the critical moments they should because of crowd inertia. This analysis is dangerously flawed and dangerously simplistic.
ok
I loved the summation: "As competitiveness goes up, cooperativeness goes down." I think this is a perfectly fair assesment of our entire society and especially our economic model.
😅😮😅 15:00 😢 15🎉:00
@@ADSHYNaye. But billionaires and mass corporations aren't "natural'. The same rules don't apply to humans at this point.
it's intrinsic to the duality of the terms. they are simply antonyms by definition and it isn't a particular quality of any one thing.
@@TheJacklikesvideos who cares about the linguistic pendantry. You know what it means 🤣 if we're forced to be competitive in our society... We don't solve problems as a collective. Ape together strong. Divide and conquer. Etc
@@ADSHYN "Billionaires are natural ☝️🤓"
In Germany, there is the awesome habit to form a "Rettungsgasse" (emergency line) if cars are in a traffic jam for emergency vehicles to pass through this lane effortlessly
The traveler experience is so true! Flying from Miami to San Diego the flight was diverted to LA. It was the last flight of the day and the airline didn't offer hotel accommodations. Me and the lady sitting next to me decided to rent a car together for an almost 3 hour drive. I thought it was the coolest thing.
If anyone is interested in knowing more about the subject and understands a bit of French, there's an amazing French youtuber called Fouloscopie that carefully explains how crowds work (crowd movement, dangers and how to prevent them, group effects and biases, ...). He also regularly organizes real-life experiments to demonstrate theories. He's a PhD researcher in this (pretty unusual) field and his videos are very well made, I strongly recommend it !
I'm going to check that out, thanks
Any chance you could post the link? 😊
@@eamon3287you know you can just use google right?
French? I'd rather gargle broken glass but thank you for offering 😘 It does make sense for a French person to study crowd behavior considering there are mass protests and strikes about 354 days a year there
@@nedisahonkeyLmfaoooooooooooo
In Poland we have a great festival: PolAndRock where the organisers used instead of physycal bariers, two or three rows of volounteers that stand shoulder to shoulder, and because of that, they can react to the crowds behaviour. When people push forward during an intense song, the volounteers push back alongsite the crowd, ans when the song ends they go back to their starting position. It is great because if someone is injured or just wants to leave, they are free to do so safely. Only once in the history of the festival, the Prodigy managers demanded that they barriers must be installed, and it resulted in at least couple dozen faintings.
As an ethiopian, I appreciate you mentioning the cause of death in 2016 Ethiopian protest. I remember people were running from police tear gas and bullets, which killed most of them.
Once worked a black friday where everyone was let into the store with maps of where all the big items were. Each of those points had security which would allow people to get them when the order came, but not before. Now the items weren't all together in one spot, but spread over everywhere (Walmart) so even though most of what people wanted was electronics, they were getting TVs in the grocery section, laptops in clothing areas, ect. Worked pretty well. There was a little bit of competition at the very beginning, but it soon fell off once the desperate people got their stuff.
It's surprising to see that the 1989 Hillsborough disaster was not mentioned during this documentary considering it's relevancy. The crowd were footballs fans, from the same team, fleeing from a stand that had fallen without police intervention exacerbating the situation.
As far as I recall the crush happened because of a large number of fans trying to get in, leading to one of the police ordering the large exit gates of the stadium being opened, causing the crowd to surge in causing a crush. There was nowhere to go due to the perimeter fencing preventing easy escape onto the pitch. There was no actual collapse of the stadium itself- could you be also thinking of Ibrox 1972?
Uh did you watch the whole video? He mentions it starting at 14:42
@@nathanwu6296 This is the close call that happened earlier in the year, not the 1989 disaster.
I think it just didn't stand out. He had the Hajj for a high death toll example, The Who for strategies against it, and the more recent event at Hillsborough as an example of limited control by organizers. While it's the worst UK sports disaster, it didn't better illustrate any of the points he was making. And that's ultimately the only reason any event was mentioned - to illustrate points.
It's also a good example of how blame often gets put on the crowd being particularly rowdy rather than structural factors and police intervention - initial coverage of the disaster focused heavily on the football fans being to blame, to the point where the Sun newspaper is still hardly sold in Liverpool even decades later due to how bad it's particularly vitriolic smearing of the fans was
I think there is a much simpler explanation that shouldn't be overlooked. In your black friday example, the crowd is pushing in towards the middle, in evacuation situations the crowd is pushing out into (usually) mostly open air. I get all the various psychology and design stuff you went through, but to me the in/out dynamic is a fundamental difference between the two scenarios. Where the crowd is pushing towards is the biggest factor. If the crowd is trying to move to a place that is inside of the crowd, bad things can easily happen. If the crowd is trying to move outside of the crowd, safer.
By this logic, crowds and stampedes in football stadium shouldn’t have happened because people are pushing towards the exit (open space). But there are several instances in the UK where bad things have happened in such scenarios. Not saying you’re wrong but it’s clearly too simple a logic to apply
If there's a tight exit, the bottleneck can dominate the analysis. In the Kiss Nightclub incident, a lot of people died because everyone was pushing to get out and save themselves from the fire
My thoughts as well. thank you. In vs out, and is there a wall (cops), limited thru traffic (guards), or a bottleneck (any door or hallway)
I think you're mixing up "crowds moving outside of the crowd" and "crowds moving outside of a crowded location but creating more crowds in the process" maybe?
Wow, captain obvious 😂 "where the crowd is pushing towards is the biggest factor", no shit Sherlock!
I have no idea why this was recommended... but man, this was an awesome video, and I'm glad I watched it to completion.
When I was still in middle school, a fire broke out in the building. The evacuation DID evolve into a mindless, disorderly panic. People were pushing others out of the way, jumping/crawling over furniture. I personally got hit with a table pushed away by someone else.
Summary: The main reason for crowd crushes isn't the purpose of gathering, or even the number of people in the crowd. But rather crowd crushes are more dependent on the competitive dynamics of the crowd and constrained architecture.
wait: didn't all of the crushes happen in semi-civilised non-western parts of the world? where are crushes in EU? reasons for crushes are not poor crowd control, but the lack of any control. then there's no space for people (nobody calculated anything) someone trips, because there too many people per square meter, and he falls, but crowd has no brakes, and he, and others, get killed. i guess they (the crowd) were constrained by time so they hurried.
@@ivok9846 Roskilde Festival disaster Denmark, year 2000, 9 dead. Love Parade disaster Germany 2010, 21 dead. Corinaldo stampede Italy 2018, 6 dead. All 3 in the EU and South Korea, USA and Japan have all had lethal crushes since 2000.
@@ivok9846 no? The main examples other than the hajj were at a concerts in ohio and texas and sporting events at wembley and hillsborough in england.
@@Ushio01 muslim pilgrimages: thousands of dead. football in indonesia, south america, and africa, hundreds. is that comparable?
@@personator there's a map of incidents in last 10 years in the video. at 2:45 that's what i was talking about. but if someone wants to talk precise numbers, sure! number of dead in countries i mention vs. "western hemisphere" nations. "orders of magnitude" difference, right?
As an avid metal concert attendee, crowd crush isn't just known its a part of it. Everyone knows the danger and is aware of those in front and next to them. Even in intense moments people are always aware when it's time to create space. And work together to create a bubble around someone struggling. We are there for a good time. Not to kill someone. It's easily the most humanity I've witnessed in a mass of people.
"people are always aware when it's time to create space" until the design of the venue makes it so that the people who would be able to create space don't know that it's time.
"everyone knows the danger" yeah right lol.
@@toseltreps1101as another metalhead we do know the danger. In metal shows, everyone has heard the sentence "when someone falls, pick them up", and many have learned where it comes from. Most importantly the artists themselves know that and won't hesitate in immediately stopping a show when they see danger
i love how metalheads are always some of the best people ever in almost any situation
@@toseltreps1101 Except drugged and drunk people.
5:07 I like how the researchers observed all that. Like people in despair and distress and some guy stands next to them being like: Huh, interesting.
I experienced those motion waves myself during the love parade in germany 2010. Just like the doors in the first example a climbable part of a wall was seen as the sole exit point for a huge mass and took 21 lives. About 10 minutes before people died i was at their exact spot and then bailed the situation through going sideways instead of forward or backwards. Unfortunatly no responsible person was ever punished. 21 people killed by brezel stands, hoardings and the organizers who wished to have a vip entry gate elsewhere (all non-vip had to go through the same tunnel for entry and exit). The police evacuated via predefined exit routes where the whole mismanagement got to me. The area that would have been available for all those people was gigantic. If they just would have used less hoarding and account for people leaving while others stil arrive throug using different routes noone would have died.
Can relate to that trapped passenger story - Got stuck overnight in a foreign country and I a genuinely wonderful day of bonding with people I would never meet before. From no discussion, to sharing tips and stories, jokes and advice... then we all land and just become travellers again.
wildly different context, but similar experience. i had just arrived in kentucky right before the total eclipse was to occur. i was all alone since i had moved for school literally like three days before, and i went to a park to witness the eclipse. even though i was alone i ended up bonding with the folks that were there at the park with me. we shared our different types of classes and talked about the younger kids dreams, where everyone had come from. and then it ended and i realized i never knew anyones name and would most likely never see them again. it really added to the surreality of the whole experience
As someone who goes to all kinds of metal shows very often, I can tell you that a lot of metal subgenres and even band fandoms have very different crowd dynamics. Slipknot GA was definitely the wildest one by far, probably followed by Cannibal Corpse. In particularly rowdy crowds, you absolutely cannot control where you are going, and the part about fluid dynamics becomes incredibly accurate. It's like being in an ocean, the waves push and pull and you move with them. Impossible to stand still. In fact, the more you try to resist, the more you are at risk of falling because of the sheer mass pushing on you. Luckily these have never been dangerous situations, as both metal fans and metal bands are usually very good at keeping each other safe. I've personally seen many people help each other up, bands give fans in the front bottles of water, and in one case even stopping the show and pointing a stage fan at a member of a crowd and making sure they're ok.
When he mentioned rowdy moshpits happening safely, I just thought "at minimum, 50% of the people in that crowd know exactly how to minimize crush and handle crowd movement." You go to enough shows and it becomes part of the experience. I remember being at a smaller show in Philly or Baltimore and making friends with this girl who had never seen live music and she was super nervous about being in the crowd. I told her when the band comes on and starts playing, everyone's gonna push forward, then we're gonna get pushed back again when the pit opens, and then some people will push past us to get to the pit, just let them pass, and keep your eyes up for crowd surfers lol
I cherish the memory of one time I was in a mosh pit with people slamming in to eachother and speeding past, when it became clear one girl lost her glasses so we linked up arms and formed a stable circle to stop movement around the area until she got her glasses back
@@TheDevourerOfPancake I have similar memories, when at Graspop, of the comradery and helpfulness of metal fans, forming bariers to help people on the floor, helping each other up, etc.. It really contradicts the 'violent' idea people have of metalheads.
This is the first I've really wanted to sign up to Nebula. This video was fascinating, not least because of the events mentionned occurred in my country. I'd really like to know about crowd control at the Hajj. You just might have won me to Nebula.
I felt this growing up in alaska. Even though anchorage is a large city. Going to shows or large crowded places never feels dehumanizing. Everyone sees eachother as alaskans. I moved to LA and its such a shock. The crowds of people are so animalistic. Almost no personal feeling or thought.
Describing Sheffield as 'North of London' gave me a chuckle. I mean you're not wrong, but it doesn't really help much. Kind of like describing Seattle as 'North of Houston'.
…. except Sheffield is 160 miles north of London, and if you drive 160 miles north of Houston you’re still in Texas. In fact you could drive double that north and still be in Texas. So no, its not the same at all. Seattle is almost two *thousand* miles away from Houston at like a 40 degree angle. Sheffield is more like a 10-15 degree angle from London. A better American analogy to prove your point would have been describing San Fransisco as north of LA. Is SF directly north LA? No. But do people describe SF as "north" of LA? Yes, all the time.
And it actually does help, because 95% of people who don’t live in the UK don’t know where Sheffield is. It could be near Cornwall for all we know. Saying Orlando is north of Miami is close enough to get the point across and move on.
i remember experiencing crowdcrush at a volbeat concert during a festival, when you start noticing it you're already stuck, luckily metalheads are bro's so they crowdsurfed people to the front who wanted to escape can't imagine having to feel the same thing in a chaotic situation
I watched another video like this where they explained the best thing to do is to take yourself out of it if you can, when you first notice it, as that’s one less person to join in the crush. But I only just realised with your comment, that that’s how it should be done. If you start feeling a crush and your at the center of it (usually up against somewhere) then start lifting people up and out, that might even show the people all the way at the back that somethings going on.
@@elliepay3763 yeah we were at the front, getting pressed against the fences, security helped people over at the front and no one was seriously hurt :)
Hi, I was at some concerts in Europe, sometimes circles opens made by people and those who cannot stand crowds sit in them and breath or just sit on the ground for a while with a lot of space inside them. Kids especially love to run in those for some reason. Anyway, after a while, the circle closes or other open somewhere else in the crowd.
That was so well-researched and written it could be used as a teaching tool.
thank you for including clips from the Seoul halloween crush. I know it probably wasnt discussed in detail in the video because it is SO recent and the research probably isnt widely available in the US yet, but its good to still see the event included and recognized.
I’m sure that event was pretty much the reason the video is made. It’s the only crowd crush that is so talked about internationally.
@@RadenWA no, the Hillsborough disaster is talked about much more, internationally. It's been the subject of many many documentaries in tons of different countries, including some very prominent ones in the US that tens of millions of people watched. Probably because the perpetrators of the crush didn't see justice to them until decades after it happened. The police officers who caused it and killed the 96 people that day (including tons of children), eventually did get found guilty of the murder of those people. It took 3 decades, but it did eventually happen. After the families of all involved, and pretty much every football fan, even fans of teams like Man Utd who otherwise have a huge and heated rivalry with Liverpool, supported the justice for the 96 movement. Everyone with a conscience did. Because it's not just a silly sports game at that point, it's a matter of life and death, and people who murdered those 96 people, needed to see justice. And they eventually did. Those police officers knew what was going on and they chose to let it happen and even to increase the problem. The effects of that day still ripple throughout football. Standing areas in British football stadiums were banned for many many years because of it. As were the cages that were there, which were like chicken pens, and so when more and more people were directed by police to go into the already way overcrowded pen, the people at the front got crushed into the metal. If those cages weren't there then they'd simply have been pushed onto the pitch and nobody would have died.
Working EMS at the Indy 500, attempting to get an emergency vehicle through that crowd of drunken, high people was a nightmare. We also could rarely use our lights while in view of the drivers so as not to distract them
You would think they would be required to have a barricaded lane open specifically for EMS.
@NONO-hz4vo that wouldn't be possible with the layout of the tracks internal roads. They did their best to block off traffic to let us go through the openings that provided. But moving through crowds to get to patients, and back to the roads was just wading through people who didn't see it didn't care that there was an ambulance trying get to a patient or to the aid station.
That's weird. Another commenter said the crowd parted like the red sea at another event for the ambulance.
@dannydaw59 different event, different level of crowd intoxication, different levels of crowd and relief area, different responses. Also remember, I said I couldn't use lights or siren in view of the racers, so they didn't know if they couldn't hear us yelling at them to move.
@@dannydaw59worked at plenty of events at emergencies. different emergencies, different events, different crowds, different responses. no two are the same. you can't count on people being nice/responsible and moving out of the way (if they do, nice, but don't count on it), sometimes they're too oblivious, sometimes they just can't move away because it's too crowded.
You mentioned the January 2023 crush at Sheffield Wednesday's Hillsborough Ground. What makes this even more shocking is the fact that 97 died at the same stadium in a major crush in 1989.
There was no crush at Hillsborough in 2023. The story was made up by a reporter, who supported the guest team and who was annoyed that his team lost.
I experienced a feeling like this once. I had to let the crowd move me, I never went back inside a crowd that tight again.
As somebody who takes the train home from school every day I can definately relate to the door phenomenom. 100+ people wait for the train. The train has 4 doors and about 30 "elite seats". There are about 20 people trying to get off the train. After they left everybody storms in. If you are at the front good luck surviving the initial push. That's why I always stay back and take a "normal" seat right next to the door
Sounds like a Dutch Intercity train between Maastricht and Schiphol airport, boarding at Utrecht Centraal...did I guess correctly?
@@DmitrijsGranicins No. It's a regional (RB) train in Germany from Miltenberg to Werthein
Despite having seats, not good ones, I have never seen that in the Hong Kong subway. I think it is because everyone has perfect information as to how many seats there are just by looking through the window, plus if there are that many people, there aren't going to be seats. The crowd is also separated, there is a no standing corridor in front of the doors for people to leave that both sides can see into it. People know trying to rush the train isn't going to get them there any faster, and the next train is a minute away. All this information effectively produces Assigned Seating/Entry. The last line of defence is station employees.
@@oohhboy-funhouse k
6:20 Maidan in Ukraine was a masterpiece of organization and a great outlier in every sense. Protestors formed a roman camp style tent city very fast with all major institutions - you could get medical help, you could eat or sleep there. Basically the protest outclassed government in governance
Well that's entirely because Maidan was an EU sponsored event to do the coup on Ukraine that lead to the civil war and then the current war in Ukraine as a distraction from Brexit and to save interest and dependency in the EU. It wasn't like it was grassroots like the media claimed.
It was interesting learning that about Maidan, because I'd seen that before elsewhere. When protestors identify with the civic community as a whole there can be an environment of trust. It's remarkable how natural it is to have institutions spontaneously organize... and *work*.
I mean ukrainians have some history with self governance defeating authoritarian rulers, look up the makhnovchina
The best crowd control I've seen is in boarding school lunch line. One man and a belt.
same
In Germany with festivals and concerts with huge crowds, there's wave breaking structures to divy up crowds to make sure people don't like crush each other in a total frenzy...
Another amazing fact about we humans is our willingness to assume people know what they are talking about. I have been in situations that are quickly deteriorating due to poor communication from those in charge, and all you have to do is start quietly asking/telling people to form a line, sit down, or move in a certain direction. Once you get a few to follow you - more and more will. We have a natural desire for order, and we are accustomed to following instructions. Take the reins, and fake it 'til you make it.+
I’m reminded… Many years ago I was working the door of a smallish but very busy bar in Berkeley CA. someone came in and said it looked like there was a fire upstairs. That was an art studio, so I stepped outside for a second to verify. I immediately went back inside and started quietly moving people out, beginning with the tables closest to the door. After the first 2 - 3 tables boss came and I quickly explained. He started helping and we got everyone out without incident, although it could have been very ugly. The art supplies upstairs started going up. Some exploded. Upstairs was a total loss, and the ceiling of the bar fell in. This all happened over the space of about 20 minutes. It was over a year before the bar reopened. I have always been astonished at myself for this incident
@@margaretcain3223geez
12:28 If you've ever been in a huge packed crowd that's pushing and pulsing, it's a crazy experience. I distinctly remember being at a poorly managed packed concert that was both exciting and frightening... nobody in the front center had any control of where we moved. When the waves came, you were helplessly pushed over at crazy angle that would certainly have resulted in the neighboring person crushing over on top of you, if it weren't for the fact that there was another person on the other side slightly underneath you supporting you. Then it would go the other way, and the person who was just leaning on you would be under you. Intense and absolutely no control.
another massive problem with the travis concert was that people were chanting stop the show and he was told that people were dying and he just kept going
3:42 I work Lyft for fun, and one year they had grounded a flight for really bad t-storms. Three (random) people had grouped together and ordered a Lyft from Sioux Falls all the way up to Minneapolis St. Paul area. One lived there, and the other two had international flights to catch. They also went around sharing their life stories since it was around a six hour drive. Yes, it normally only takes about four hours to drive there, but remember; storms bad enough to ground flights
The cooperation of people during a hard time really is just so true. Me and my gf were on a vacation in paris and beacuse our flight back left very early in the morning and the airport was far from paris (it was in beauvais) we decided to stay the last night on the airport because we didnt feel like spending a 200€ for only a couple of hours. We then got to the airport and there were other people there who had decided to do the same. Then late in the evening a security guard came and said that the airport is closing for the night (usually they are open 24/7). In that moment as we stepped outside into the cold and dark night together everybody started talking like what are we gonna do now. We then checked google maps and decided to walk to a mcdonalds a couple of km away that was open. Then we got there and it closed as well after a short time and they said only the drive thru is open for the night. We then just walked around as a group, talked and tried to stay warm. It was one of the most wholesome experiences of my life and when the airport finally opened again it felt like we had become good friends. It was sad when we said goodbyes and everyone went back to their own countries.
Interesting how some events can be massively infamous in your own country but unheard of elsewhere - I was entirely expecting a detailed discussion of the Hillsborough disaster (97 deaths, compared to the 11 at The Who's concert)
As was I. I was especially surprised when the stadium was mentioned, but in a different context. I suppose though that in at least the case of Stadiums, they actively moved to seating only after that... Whereas concerts still have standing seats.
It does seem strange to see hillsborough mentioned in a video about crowd crushes but not in the context of the hillsborough disaster itself, like if a video on terrorism talked about the world trade center but only mentioned the 1993 bombing and not 9/11.
As someone living in Sheffield, mention of Hillsborough was the reason I came to the comments. EDIT: now I’ve watched the video it’s very weird indeed the 1989 disaster wasn’t mentioned. It seems so obvious living in the UK. Maybe it’s just not known to the outside world.
Everyone should know about the Hillsborough disaster, not just for the crowd control failure but also the shameful way the police blamed it on Liverpool soccer fans.
For sure. I wasnt even alive for the Hillsborough disaster, but i wept watching the documentary about the Liverpool semi final in Paris in 2022. The fact that no one died in that incident was in spite of police, and solely due to collective memory of Hillsborough. Seeing video camera footage of the crowd chanting to keep calm and dont push, it haunts me. The fact that apparently Hillsborough isn't acknowledged abroad is antithetical to my emotional response to it.
Great video, man. Very interesting phenomenon told with good editing and useful information.
Terrific video as usual. Thanks. Would'a been interesting to see how the the Roman Coliseum handled crowds and the changing performances.
The crazy thing is, the 2023 Hillsborough close call has been blamed on the fact Newcastle lost and the fans were complaining because of that, not because there was a crush as a result of archaic design. The stadium genuinley needs leveled and rebuilt.
That stand perhaps. The rest of the stadium has never had any bother.
Did it strike you as odd that they mention this and not 1989?
@@jamesjrossyep!
You somehow mentioned Hillsborough without actually talking about the Hillsborough disaster lol
Awesome video! I love the conversation about design, and acknowledging that people are often doing their best with the info they have in these crowds. I'm always looking at design when I'm at a big event, and wondering about how those things effect the situation and how it could improve the mood of myself and the people around me. Hearing about how people try to help each other when they have a common identity in a crisis was really touching and makes a lot of sense to me. Then seeing that the competition in other events breaks that unity is also really telling. All around awesome video, I loved the angles and direction you took to cover the topic.👌 tbh I was waiting for the Travis Scott thing the whole time since that was such a hot topic for a while- but I had not realized so many other concerts had this happen, and especially those big events around the world, with 1,000s of people getting crushed, really suprised me. Even though it probably shouldn't...
Way back in the stone ages when I was in school we read reports of crowd crush deaths in places like nightclubs when fires broke out because of factors like locked exits, doors that swung inwards, and improper signage. So much for cooperation.