Is string theory still worth exploring? | Roger Penrose and Eric Weinstein battle Brian Greene
Roger Penrose and Eric Weinstein go at loggerheads with Brian Greene over the relevance of string theory today.
We previously saw Weinstein and Greene battle it out over the string theory community's toxic culture. Today we get to see physicist Roger Penrose join the the dissention, weighing in on whether the once revelotionary theoretical framework is a thing of the past.
Watch the full debate at iai.tv/video/the-trouble-with...
String theory has been dominant in theoretical physics for thirty years, with more scientific papers arising from it than any other theory. But critics argue the theory has held undue influence and it is an error to pursue it.
Is it time to move on from string theory, recognise that the search for supersymmetry has failed, and seek alternative accounts of the universe that are supported by observation and experiment? Or is the continued dominance of string theory justified by its potential to unify our understanding of the universe once and for all?
#StringTheory #TheoryOfEverythingInTheUniverse #StringParticles
Eric Weinstein is a mathematical physicist and the host of the podcast The Portal. He is the former Managing Director of Thiel Capital in San Francisco and was formerly a Co-Founder and Principal of the Natron Group in Manhattan as well as a Visiting Research Fellow at Oxford University in the Mathematical Institute.
Sir Roger Penrose is a world-renowned physicist, best known for his work on general relativity and sharing the Wolf Prize for Physics with Stephen Hawking for their work on black holes. His books include The Road to Reality and The Emperor’s New Mind.
Brian Greene is renowned for his groundbreaking discoveries in superstring theory and best-selling books. He has been chairman of the World Science Festival since co-founding it in 2008.
The Institute of Art and Ideas features videos and articles from cutting edge thinkers discussing the ideas that are shaping the world, from metaphysics to string theory, technology to democracy, aesthetics to genetics. Subscribe today! iai.tv/subscribe?Y...
For debates and talks: iai.tv
For articles: iai.tv/articles
For courses: iai.tv/iai-academy/courses
Do you agree wihth Penrose, Weinstein, or Greene? Let us know in the comments below! To watch the full debate, visit iai.tv/video/the-trouble-with-string-theory?KZhead&+comment
t is not weistein. it is weinstein, should be on the title.
I personally am against string theory I think it overcomplicates a simple problem quantising gravity.I believe loop quantum gravity or other similar theories are more viable and if they can be improved and corrected they might someday lead to a solution on this problem.
Thank you, was just about to ask
LQG is also an overcomplication. Gravity is a weak attraction and a relative repulsion. You need to understand subatomic physics(particle mechanics) to understand that there is only one principle and one force (spins and charges).
Why use the word string about something that they don't define as a string? Hilarious :) A string is a mechanical vibrant. The energy moves circularly around a guitar string for example, once in a vibrating state. Abstract virtualities aren't strings ,and if there are any subparticle or subquarky strings, you can be sure they must have energy or mass or similar in order to behave as a string....
Regardless of the entire discussion, it's truly remarkable to see a man like Penrose, at 92, still flexing his brain and engaging in these subjects.
Yea it's crazy. Mentally and physically, he doesn't seem much older than 70
It really belies the claim that aging necessarily involves a depletion of mental acuity.
He is a genius, but he's been nursing that toothache for like 2 years. He should really get that looked at.
😂😂@@onbored9627
Even more wise, than many who came after him
If I get to my 92-year-old and remember my granddaughter's name, I will be happy!! Dr. Penrose is a marvelous example of a great mind working!
No doubt his career helped him. He used his brain aggressively his whole life. That helps to keep some fatal neurological disorders at bay. Though a lot of it is just genetics.
@@Parasmunt, I believe his profession has a lot to do with it. I am a contemporary classical composer and hope my brain will work until my 90s.
Im just a measly engineering student, so I'm just incredibly grateful to be able to watch discussions like these for free, in the comfort of my home. 100 years ago, you would have had to go to this event in person. We can learn so much these days, with such little effort as long as we have the interest.
I love how Penrose smiles. It's as if he would be 100% happy if string theory ends up being right. It's a smile that says: "Show me what you're made of, new generation!"
Roger is the youngest smartest and most realistic of the whole lot. But without realizing it, they all have been driving the exact same broken physics car for decades; Broken motor, rusty chassis, flat tires, dysfunctional brakes. And all they can do is bickering which software update will best fix their car. Sorry, but i don't think they see the essence of what they want to fix. Its not in complex new theories. The flaw is in the theories we all take for granted. I already closed the deal for you. Why do we keep negotiating the terms? Bad script this is....
@@RWin-fp5jn The whole irony here is that Greene's String theory isn't a string theory. How can it get more idiotic than that?
@@KibyNykraft but black holes are black holes. Yes Physicist usually do a good job naming things, usually.
String theory can't stop being right, because it has never been such :) It have always been unfalsifiable and it has survived (more as a framework than a theory as they said correctly) only, because it can't be proven wrong, the same way it can't be proven that God doesn't exist (I mean it quite well proven that (s)he is a human construct and as such isn't what it's claimed to be, but otherwise you can only make a finite list of places & time where God were not, but that's not exhaustive list by definition). If some day it produces some conclusive test at least the speculation about that particular version of string theory can be revived again, until then it's deader than the Disco!
String theory invokes magical thinking with stuff consisting of transient existence and has infinite vibrational energy for some reasons, so of course this approach will work. It is not based on anything real, so yes. Now all you have to do to prove it to skeptics like me is in a lab make something out of nothing and then turn it back into nothing again, and you are right, your model works. If you cannot show transient existence, don't bother me with it. Science explains our observations, rather than explaining our imaginations.
I personally think that String Theory is a cautionary tale of what happens when you mistake Math for Physics.
Nice!
I think Sabine Hossenfelder had a great point that, as much as some physicists seem to insist on it, there is no requirement that the math behind physics has to be beautiful. It may well be that the math behind physics is ugly and clunky.
@@dancahill9585That's a very good point by her. I think we got spoiled by Newtonian Physics and now expect every other theory to be just as beautiful/deterministic.
Exactly. A whole generation of brilliant physicists lost in mathematics that have no relationship to reality.
@@michaelhill6451to be fair the only reason why Newtonian Physics looks good, is because of Leibniz, we are using his notation. And also, Newton did not define force, he defined impulse of motion and his original definitions were ugly as hell. It was the application of Leibnizs notation and formulation of the underlying math that gave us the current form of the equations.
String theory proves the existence of hip-hop level beef within the physics community.
I understood next to nothing of what was discussed but I was still totally engrossed.
I think most people can attest for that lmao way above my head but I love it
I think at this point you should just release the full video free of charge.
Charge? Electric? Color? Dollar? Other? Post the complete video, please!
My prediction: give it a decade or two after Roger passes away and then his gravitational self-collapse theory will become the norm. Right now the theories are tied to egos and grants and we need that generation to retire... no one wants to admit that someone 'living' got the best theory. Roger's ideas seem the most parsimonious and closest to Occam's razor, and explain multiple mysteries at once. Even if it's not correct on the details, the general geometric framework solving the measurement problem is very appealing.
Thank you! It is so rarely I see people agreeing with this and I cannot see it any other way. It is a matter of time at this point.
I agree with the conclusion and with the Occam's razor argument (because Penrose started from principles not because he gave a solution of the measurement problem). I (a mathematician) was convinced for a long time that the measurement problem is an actual problem. Now I'm extremely sure it's just not there. The Schrödinger equation just describes everything that happens if you put everything in it. You can derive the Born rule from the Schrödinger equation. You can derive non-determinism for observers governed by the Schröder equation. It's all in the mathematics. The reason I changed my mind was when I realised that the non-cloning theorem makes restrictions what observers governed by the Schrödinger equation can observe.
Fair in theory, however in practice, "that generation" (egos) tied to "that bucket of money" (grants) never sees cessation, the torch merely gets passed- a quick view of political governance should serve sufficiently illustrative. It will spiral into madness and entropy as with all things, though I assume you meant this in hope so instead may we perhaps not apply Occam's but instead Hanlon's razor here.
Exactly 100% agreed, a lot of egos are going to get hurt admitting Roger was right.
Interesting. Given that I have no formal background, where can I know more about Roger Penrose's theory??
Brian Greene is always a gentleman, let's respect that. He's such a fantastic science communicator as well, one of the best out there.
Agreed, but with that being said, it still looks very much like he and others may have spent a lifetime chasing the rabbit down the wrong hole.
hes polite the way a mafia boss sitting on top of all the turf and funding is polite. gimme a break kid.
@@5piles lol but not actually funny for those below him in the pecking order.
What does that statement say about the video main topic?
@5piles why would you believe weinstein the cry baby? Were you there? People live on stories. I've heard Bret and Eric are becoming cuckoo. I'm right cuz I say it. Believe me people. Why not? I
I love these types of discussions and environment. I can't get enough of this type of discussion.
Yes but you must always be a skeptic. Don't just suck in everything emotionally as if it was true or knowledgeable. If you are like that ,you will waste your fortune or life on only entertainment (a consumer) or end up in church, or easily be tricked by money fraudsters (becoming more and more creative ; in Norway they call old ladies and say they are from the police or helping poor children in war zones, "send me all your cash". Old ladies in rural Norway grew up in an age of mutual trust and very little crime. They are easy targets). In a similar way ,the generally consuming public today is equally an easy prey for charlatans posing as scholars, for religions and extreme political groups. Most people have no training in science and skepticism. Most have a barely average IQ.
What they were doing is great in the sense that at least they find time to congregate and do some small talk purely to entertain themselves. For it is written that no human mind is capable to grasp not even a single principle of creation, the nature of the universe wasn't meant to understand by any negligible matter in it FOREVER!!! Let's go!
" I love these types of discussions...I can't get enough of these types of discussions" ? No human talks like this...both comments managed to avoid saying a single thing remotely related to the video .😂 You guys need to find a different bot farm with a better AI model because this one is SHITE!
@@zzzzxxxx341well, it may be true, but that won't keep us from trying
Give us the damn complete video!!
Right? Ten bloody minutes at a time. Excitement for 24 hours followed by 10 minutes of content. Very disappointing.
Its pretty aggravating. Really want to watch the whole thing, but theres some kind of account/paywall setup for it.
Sure. Immediately after you give your money 😂
@@eksffa KZhead already has my money. Pony up the content.
yup, thumbs down for that
Listen to Roger Penrose; this man really knows his physics and extremely insightful.
Penrose is the real genius here in this panel. Why in heavens name did they invite Weinstein? He's a good speaker and scientific entertainer (his own words btw), but it's like brining your cheeky little nephew to an adult conversation.
LETS PROTEST FOR A LONGER VIDEO!!!
Let's do not and let's be grateful for the this snippet of fire in the community! So they discuss string theory’s effort to tackle the age-old issue of combining QP with GR, centred around gravity. Thing is, we don't need string theory for that. Let me show the community how to correctly connect QP and GR via gravity using 8 steps. Step 1) First of all, if we want to explain gravity to the full, we must distinguish and explain the 2 effects gravity has on spacetime (ST) around restmass; it causes ST to be both contracTED and contracTING at the same time. I will shortly prove the first effect is the ‘real’ effect and the second is the compensating ‘imaginary’ effect coming from QP. Step 2). There is no such thing as ‘restmass’. Restmass is a collection of trillions of vibrating and speeding subatomic particles, each individually having an effect on surrounding ST as per Einstein’s Special relativity (SR)which is the deeper underlying theory as opposed to the mere geometry of GR. Step 3) Redefine equivalence relations; Penrose always stresses we must substitute E=hf (Planck) into E=MC2 (Einstein) to get the actual equivalence relation, namely that mass fundamentally equals frequency or inversed time (or 'clock') in the subatomic world. Likewise, Energy is equivalent to inverse space (or 'Grid') in the QP world. If we understand this, we are ready so solve everything; Step 4) We now need to go back to the spacetime diagram of Special Relativity and a) draw a mass axis opposite to the time axis, next b) draw an energy axis opposite to the space axis and next c) draw an energymass vector opposite to the spacetime vector. THIS is the correct balance between the spacetime quadrant and the energymass (QP) quadrant. Step 5) what does SR now tell us? It tells us that when you speed you contract frontal space and time and you wrap this fabric in standing wave of integers or ‘QUANTA’ of windings around the speeding object thus increasing the speeding’s object mass (inverse time) and energy (inverse space). THIS is how spacetime and the quantized QP world are linked! Step 6) since restmass is a collection of UNALIGNED linear mini-ST vector contractions, this explains why ST is contracTED radially around restmass, which is half of what we needed to do. Step 7) On the other side in the energymass quadrant meanwhile, the motion vector opposite to the ST motion vector also has an effect. Here speed is defined as E/kg or [Nm/kg=m2/s2=gamma C2]. The entire motion formula thus E=MC2. Since both motion vectors must cancel out, this means the C2 speed in the Energymass quadrant must cancel a C speed in the ST` quadrant. This can only happen when we insert i2=-1 in the QP quadrant. This is why mathematics must have complex numbers. Step 8) now finally we realise that the speed vector of -J/kg is interpreted as its equivalent -m2/s2 imaginary accelerating grid contraction in the ST quadrant. This explains why ST is also contracTING around restmass. With this we have completely explained gravity as a pure SPEED related effect AND we have physically connected QP with GR / SR. Why do we still need string theory ? Good luck all!
They will soon upload it maybe. The debate about the multiverse last year was also like this then they uploaded the whole video after weeks.
“… so we don’t lose the whole physics enterprise to Sabine Hossenfelder and her adherents.” That’s a backhanded compliment to SH that makes her sound like the leader of an insurrection!
It almost sounded sexist to some extent. As if he's threatened by what she's doing online. Mind you, she's also a fundamental theoretical physicist like Weinstein. Or even more so than him. He's more of an entrepreneur/director now
@@prithvi801 You are missing his point. Physics is not just quantum theory, he doesnt like that almost all physics is just quantum theory now. Thus creating a slowdown of technology.
It's NOT a compliment, backhanded or otherwise. SH is always casting doubt on ST, and most ST scientists hate her.
@@jgrab1 True, considering that STs are just a bunch of clowns that just want grant money but are now being exposed
He thinks if her as the leader of the entrenchment, not letting others explore the rest of what's possible by her stranglehold on the community.
I love how the argument was made, that String Theory points to a suspicion, that the count of available dimensions is not a fundamental thing in the universe.
The ending where Sabrina is cited by name is pure gold. She really became a loud voice against ST.
That was a cheap shot, given that Sabine wasn't present to defend herself. Eric is a prick.
It’s Sabine - not correcting you in particular, cuz Weinstein said it wrong in the first place 😅
@@Michael-kp4bd hahaha thanks
@@Michael-kp4bd Sounded like he said "Sa-bine-ah", which I'm pretty sure is how you pronounce the German name Sabine
@@burkedestounis3818 yep the way you wrote it is how you say her name. i thought I could rather clearly hear the ‘r’ of “Sabrina” when Eric Weinstein said it at the very end of the video, and felt it was inevitable someone like OP could get it wrong because of that. Just wanted to give an FYI
Professor Penrose is correct here the same energy is throughout the vacuum. But only when matter is introduced even at the quantum level. And it's tiny, it doesn't need to be large if it's consistent. Peace Professor ✌️.
String theory gives two options: either you change testable science for maths, and pretend it to be true. Or, you accept the results of this theory, including the extra dimensions, strings and other weird stuff. Which put you again in the first option. At the end, the whole thing is a matter of faith coated with sophisticated mathematics
Sounds like philosophy. Or religion.
@@mensrea1251 except mathematics is nothing but pure logic and truth so its the opposite of religion or philosophy.
@@jannien4129 do you even read? string theorys math does not check out. thats the entire point of this video. theoretical science is nothing but religion with flashy numbers instead of a bible.
@@perrystuart8035 I do read and I do agree that its a problem towards the scientific method that string theory is not testable yet and probably wont be testable for some time. That being said its far away from any religion. The mathematics in string theory is consistent and correct so I don't know where you learnt that it doesn't check out. Edward Witten literally won a fields medal in mathematics for his contributions to knot theory and he did it by working on string theory. Why on earth would so many of the most successful physicists of our time work on a theory when the maths is wrong??? That's the difference between string theory and religion, religion is some made up text while string theory has mathematics to support a certain hypothesis which has not been proved but could be proved or disproved.
Faith coated with sophisticated maths does not sound like science. Science has to submit to test and proof in finite time
Penrose rebuke of String theorists was brutal.
Absolutely not, it was honest, scientific and straight to the point
@@mmh1922 And also wrong.
@@A.T.-89 by wrong you mean impolite?
@@mmh1922 By wrong I mean wrong. His argument that extra dimensions must have been excited somewhere in Universe was easily dismantled by Brain Greene. The statement that introducing new dimensions bring an infinite number of new parameters is self-evidently wrong. I suspect Roger is not very well-versed in ST at a technical level.
@@A.T.-89 Brian "Brain" Greene? Or Brane Greene?
Fabulous discussion. Extraordinary brains!
Without honest scientific debate and disagreement, we'd not have progress. Great stuff from three of the best...
Eric’s gaze is in a quantum superposition
Wow, physics is one competitive field! I love seeing these leaders in science and physics. Debating different theories and ideas. It’s fascinating.❤😮
Yeah its pretty competitive to make up ideas all day with no evidence of any of it.
it used to be competitive.
Weinstein isn’t a scientist.
This reminds me of when dark matter was first introduced & I first learned about it, the harmony of space but with us not knowing what the glue was holding it together. That’s how I view string theory with GR & how Eric described the baby with the giraffe head.
When I see a debate like this I think of positively charged atoms in the same room repelling each other.
Or if you are skeptical atheist ,you think of impostors
amogus@@KibyNykraft
We don't need to request string theory to solve the quantum measurement problem. I would just like to see ANY detectable, string-specific prediction, or at least a mechanism that explains why we perceive just 4 extended dimensions. In this regard, nothing has been achieved by thousands of experts, working on it for four decades, despite all the original promises.
I've always had a hard time keeping up with this stuff, but it always makes for incredibly fascinating conversation. I just hope we figure this out before I die. So get cracking guys and gals, I've only got another 40 years left or so.
There will be if not this, then other unsolved problems still extant when you die.
@@patinho5589 Not if the singularity happens (intelligent Ai solves most problems by rapidly designing and building more exponentially powerful versions of itself, that then design the next generation)
@@michaelandrews4783 I’m privy to some ridiculous information about the universe and other civilisations. Ones with ai androids which still don’t have it all figured out.
LoL 🤣 I love it when passionate debate and discussion is on the important big questions 💯💯💯💯💯
@@michaelandrews4783 Although I do not deny the feasibility of artificial general intelligence, I predict that self-improvement will stagnate at some point.
Roger Penrose is probably the greatest mind alive. And he has a M.C. Escher connection
Don't exaggerate please. Penrose is amasing, but there are plenty more.
@@bengeurden1272 You talking about greatest minds alive or those that had M.C. Escher connections? Either way, I'd like to see your list.
Chris Langan, America's smartest man, has a TOE called CTMU. He says Penrose is close to his own ultimate metaformal theory.
@@hajsh67I can think of only one: Tony Stark.
@goldwhitedragon Langan is a pseudo-intellectual fraud, his IQ is self-proclaimed and absolutely NOT verified (no credible IQ rating gauges beyond 145). His "theory" is heavily based upon him trying to shoehorn his personal belief in God into a physical model, no physicist takes it or him seriously.
Eric really gotta sore spot for Sabine... I'm totally here for it. She's smart and hilarious.
What is his problem with Sabine? I need some context to understand, i watch some of her videos on youtube though
@@GustavoOliveira-gp6nr Exactly my question. What is the issue Eric has with her ideas. Is it superdeterminism and, if so, how does that impact what Eric thinks?
There was a panel a couple of years ago where Sabine just mopped the floor with Eric, and on multiple occasions had dismissed Geometric Unity to his face (successfully), so I can see why he's sore. I enjoy listening to all these intellects but am trying to parse out who will eventually come out on top.
Eric exists to feel grievances.
Sabine is a healthy challenge that should never disappear or get dismissed. Somehow she seems to represent that physics on that level can turn out a bit bizarre, paradox, contradicting, and disobedient to a universal consistency.
tried to sign up to the website to watch the full thing and the submit button was not clickable when i tried to set up the account.
Greene puts the cart before the horse! He says if Einstein hadn't described general relativity then string theory would have revealed it, but that's because string theory arose from an attempt to reconcile general relativity with the quantum world! Since he and others like him worked backwards from gravity and the quantum it would be extraordinary if those two foundations were NOT discovered. BUT it doesn't mean it's real or useful. I can never understand anything Weinstein says, but almost everything Roger Penrose says makes sense, and I love his books. Doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong, but if there is a battle I'm with Roger.
A new metaphysical / ontological basis of fundamental science is needed to get out of the "crisis of understanding" (J. Horgan). And to understand means "to grasp the structure" (G. Gutner "Ontology of mathematical discourse"). I will add - the primordial / basic ontological structure of the Reality (the Universe), which is the same for the entire system of knowledge. More than a quarter of a century ago, mathematician and philosopher Vasily Nalimov set the super-task of building a "super-unified field theory that describes both physical and semantic manifestations of the World" - the creation of a model of a "Self- Aware Universe" In the same direction, the ideas of the Nobel laureate in physics Brian Josephson (which are not very noticed by mainstream science), set forth in the essay "On the Fundamentality of Meaning"...
Actually no. String theory had nothing to do with gravity when it was first « discovered ». It was realized later
To "reconcile" quantum theory and general relativity is to cross the "hedgehog" with the "snake". Both theories are phenomenological (parametric, "effective") theories without ontological justification /substantiation (ontological basification). Any theory that claims to be called "fundamental" must be ontologically based. It is necessary to build a new metaphysical / ontological basis of fundamental science (mathematics, physics, cosmology). A.N. Whitehead: "A precise language must await a completed metaphysical knowledge."
@@vladimirrogozhin7797 I agree.
@@jarodhb4138 I heard a different version, but whatever.
Eric’s comment at 10:17 is interesting: “… so that we do not lose the fundamental physics enterprise to Sabine Hossenfelder and her adherence.” What’s interesting to me (as a non-scientist and interested layman) is that ‘philosophical’ camps are forming in science just as much as anywhere else. Sabine has emerged as a strong voice against theories that seem hard to test against experiment, such as string theory or the multiverse. But as far as I can see (and it may well not be very far), she is actively building a reputation only as a self-proclaimed whistle blower against theories she labels ‘unscientific’. She does not seem to have proposed new alternative theories, or even argued why existing alternative theories need to be deemed favourable, and as such does not seem to be contributing constructively to the debate. This contrasts both Brian Greene, who has established himself in my world (that of the interested, but ultimately clueless layperson) as one of the finest science communicators in the field, and Roger Penrose, arguably one of the most original mathematical physicists of his generation.
Neither Sabine Hossenfelder nor Eric Weinstein are serious physicists. They are science trolls who made their claim to fame by criticizing things that they can't do themselves. This has nothing to do with either science or philosophy. It's simply post-truth reality tv on the internet.
I like this
I think she has proposed alternative, look at her video about Super determinism
@@kanishkchaturvedi1745 Superdeterminism is a religious concept. It's basically the universe showing you the middle finger. It's also completely unnecessary. Absolutely everything that has been observed at the quantum level so far fits neatly into Copenhagen. The problem with Copenhagen is that most people (including Sabine and folks like Sean Carrol for all I can tell) don't understand it because we don't teach it well in university level courses. You can take a look at standard QM textbooks like Griffith... he explicitly admits that he will teach you the how but not the why. He then tucks in a chapter at the end where he tries to explain the why a little bit and he fails completely. You can immediately tell that he simply didn't think very hard about what he wrote. Why? Because it doesn't matter to him. Teaching the why just doesn't fascinate the author and so he just doesn't put any real work into it.
Whistleblowers almost never were equal to their subject of whistles. They rather point to faults or misconduct of which most people seem to be comfortably ignorant. Just like the fable of The Emperor's new Clothes. The child who yelled "the emperor is naked" didn't have to be a master costume designer in order to be heard and agreed with.
Hi, Can anyone briefly explain what did Eric mean when he said " so we don't lose the fundamental physics enterprise to Sabine Hossenfelder's adherence." What Sabine's adherence here and why Eric believes that it is not aligned with the fundamental physics enterprise.
Listen to him in other venues. He hates that a particular group of scientists have such a stranglehold on the system that everyone is required to bend to their objectives when, if allowed to free roam, those minds could be solving problems in other areas.
It's personal with Eric. He has grudges.
He does indeed. To be fair, string theorists were tyrannical bullies apparently.
He's nothing but a quack trying to sell books and charge for interviews. There is a reason Greene has him on all the time to "debate" these topics; they are birds of a feather. With all that being said, I wonder why Dr. Kaku isn't on more of these debates as well?
It's probably personal with everyone involved by this point. For example, Greene has tied his entire career and legacy to string theory being the answer; he arguably can no longer afford for it to be otherwise.
@@BainesMkII I agree with that sentiment and pretty much wrote the same in my comments.
@@BainesMkII Agreed.
Without really understanding the true nature of physical reality being revealed by quantum mechanics, it's not possible to blindly quantize gravity a la other field theories.
Speaking in regards to adding extra dimensions and having infinite variables, would that not be considered combinatorial inflation?
Any failed theory can be enforced to work by adding more variables. Einstein did it and in so doing showed nothing but everyone worships him, so sounds like a plan.
100 plus years for True Tone Metal Guitar Strings found in the Region.. Especially As That Old Granada Hill Still Stands Stocks..
Weinstein scathing at the end. I love Sabine Hossenfelder, I think she is right...
I completely respect both Roger and Brian, and I appreciate Rogers position on this subject, but purely from a mathematical perspective string theory is fundamentally important to keep exploring. You simply can’t ignore the incredible mathematical works of Witten for example. Now I don’t respect Eric at all, especially since he isn’t a practicing physicist, nor has he published any actual physics or mathematical work. His geometric unity hypothesis was massively flawed and rightly criticised for its lacking of mathematical rigour. He comes across as petty and jealous.
The video on your website is very slow and causes intermittent delays. You should just put the whole video onto KZhead.
"the beauty of a child with the head of a giraffe" XD that is such a funny description of string theory.
What the hell is Eric's problem with Sabine Hossenfelder anyway? In another panel they were both on they seemed to agree on almost everything
Sabine catching strays at the end there for some reason
Im wondering what was he trying to get at with that comment. Still trying to figure that one out
@@RaineyParkerBecause Greene does exactly what Sabine criticizes, and Weinstein doesn't like either. Sabine because she is against TOEs and Greene because Weinstein feels String theory is a failed TOE.
@@XboxxxGuy Nope, it's imply personal grudge, she made him looks like a fool, which hurt his ego. By now it should be obvious that EW is not interested in science, but in satisfying his own ego.
@@AG-ig8uf you analyzed it like you're being forced to do so bruv are you okay
The important thing to notice here is that physical science communications are so focused on string theory and cosmology that the entire physics community is living under its shadows. We have fantastic and rigorous theoretical physics in Non equilibrium statistical physics, condensed matter physics, quantum optics, new emerging branches of physics like (Non-Hermitian quantum mechanics). There are several great experimental things going on !!! But people are kept under the rock of string theory !!
True... but no offense... we haven't even solved Ising spins, yet, so it's not like other fields of physics haven't met their theorist's breaking points early and often. The mathematicians have the ultimate example for that phenomenon in the Collatz conjecture. It doesn't take much at all to come up with very hard to solve problems. Should these things suck all the air out of the room? No, not really. I think we can agree about that.
@@lepidoptera9337 There have been breaking points in several places in many domains but you see the scope of science communications. Condensed Matter people are doing stuff that is useful in real life. They have come far from the Hubbard model and now they are using hybrid models to describe stuffs that are evident in real experiments. But people have hardly heard about Metal Insulator Transition!!! Whereas many avid scientific readers know of Bekenstein - Hawking entropy. Do you think metal insulator transition isn't fascinating? There all sorts of phase transitions happening irl which are just as much fascinating! The idea of universality classes, scaling etc. are fascinating. But their coverage in science communications is 0.
The maths of GR were a result of quantizing the string. Those things are common in physicss. It happens for Dirac's equation and QFT as well. It does note mean the physics underneath is Correct!
That's not true. It's only when an interacting theory of gravitational interactions is consistent with the basic principles of quantum mechanics (e.g., unitarity), that GR emerges at large distances.
@@Channel-ng1mn the only richt equation that satisfies Tmn;n=0 IS GR. No wonder string theory satisfies It as well otherwise It would not even be called a theory.
Gr doesn't even work at very large scales
If it is the case that physics is inexhaustible, like mathematics is inexhaustible (i.e. there will always be more to discover) then would it imply that pursuing many diverse approaches in parallel could be the most promising strategy to deepen understanding in an efficient way? Considering that every scientific theory - including those which did not, and will not stand the test of time - captures an interesting part of reality, demands different tools and methods, reveals a path that happened to be found, builds progress in creative thinking.
it's probably inexhaustible, mostly because our systemic interfaces aren't likely to be able to measure all aspects of reality.
One big problem there chief, string theory isn't testable and has produced one single result in 40 years. It's the hype beast of theories
@@daarom3472 bingo
Your man Eric, he doesn’t bear grudges, no sir
string theory is biggest drama since Logan Paul, this is marvelous
These discussions remind me of the lyrics from the song "A Puzzlement" from the King and I.
Can you please indicate where can I find the full video? Thank you! 🙏
It’s folded into some extra dimensions. It’s there but you just can’t prove it.
@@mensrea1251 this comment is underrated XDDD
@@ya32233 😉
@ya32233, yours is actually.
Over the two years of 16 and 17 I read The Elegant Universe (back at the millennium when it was hip and hot), it destroyed my reading ability and the book concludes with the clear principle that the substrate of String Theory can be continuously adapted to match observations and it makes predictions until it doesn't - in conclusion Penrose Rules! and Greene Drules (and wastes a lot of time and money and fucked my reading ability - there's no offence like personal offence) I should have been reading The Emperors New Mind or something
Read "the inelegant universe" , there are at least two skeptical articles by that name taking the Eleg univ apart more or less.
Yes, 'The Emperors New Mind' is a great book. I remember it well. Many still think A.I. will become conscious like a human & yet humans are still for the most part unconscious and merely sleep walking through their life of action - reaction.
the start of this video was very dramatic, kudos to the sound guy
I love how big minds can diverge on opinion and experiences and still not polarize the subject or take it personally.
Eric Weinstein is such a pseud. What has he even contributed to the field?
Why do you continue to repost this old event over and over again?
It's advertising for their website where the full video is available.
@@BainesMkIIWell they are doing a crappy job of that as the link they posted for the full video is broken.
How old is this event?
LoL 🤣 I love it when passionate debate and discussion is on the important big questions 💯💯💯💯💯
Nice discussion, strong and clear argument from Briane Greene and good point from Eric Weinstein regarding exploration of other avenues. I wish we also get Edward Witten into such debates.
Witten and Greene are pretty much an insult to human intelligence. They are very intelligent, but they're in the wrong field of interest. I mean, string theory...
Ed Witten has studiously avoided the whole development of podcast type discussions over the last few decades, apart from one ‘closer to truth’ years ago. He doesn’t seem to want to engage beyond academic correspondences at conferences and in journals. I guess he doesn’t really feel anything more will come from other types of discussions, or at least anything that would interest him. He’s also old now so I guess he wants to focus his time carefully. I know he still puts a lot of effort into teaching which is admirable.
@@brianboyle2681 Nor should he. Debates/oral words are worthless useless, prove nothing, impress nobody, change nobody's minds.
There seems to be an ideological component to theoretical physics that mirrors ontological liberalism and forms of conservatism with debates being around political community and the utilitarian nature of modernisation through things such as the LHC.
Just build an LHC larger than the Earth, and String theory will be unambiguously confirmed ;-)
if space is curved around objects, then are there places far enough away from any objects where space is flat, or whatever not curved would be? if we could figure out a way to artificially flatten curved space around an object, could we create lift, and launch spaceships that way, etc. Is anybody working on the whole what is space really and how can it curve when it seems like it is just the absence of stuff.
Let's all take the time to appreciate scientific minds debating and still being gentlemen!
10 minutes of argumentative content followed by a broken link. WTF?!?
Where is the official Michio Kaku emoticon when you need it?
Conservation of Spatial Curvature (both Matter and Energy described as "Quanta" of Spatial Curvature) Is there an alternative interpretation of "Asymptotic Freedom"? What if Quarks are actually made up of twisted tubes which become physically entangled with two other twisted tubes to produce a proton? Instead of the Strong Force being mediated by the exchange of gluons, it would be mediated by the physical entanglement of these twisted tubes. When only two twisted tubules are entangled, a meson is produced which is unstable and rapidly unwinds (decays) into something else. A proton would be analogous to three twisted rubber bands becoming entangled and the "Quarks" would be the places where the tubes are tangled together. The behavior would be the same as rubber balls (representing the Quarks) connected with twisted rubber bands being separated from each other or placed closer together producing the exact same phenomenon as "Asymptotic Freedom" in protons and neutrons. The force would become greater as the balls are separated, but the force would become less if the balls were placed closer together. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- String Theory was not a waste of time, because Geometry is the key to Math and Physics. However, can we describe Standard Model interactions using only one extra spatial dimension? What if we describe subatomic particles as spatial curvature, instead of trying to describe General Relativity as being mediated by particles? Fixing the Standard Model with more particles is like trying to mend a torn fishing net with small rubber balls, instead of a piece of twisted twine. Quantum Entangled Twisted Tubules: “We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question which divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct.” Neils Bohr (lecture on a theory of elementary particles given by Wolfgang Pauli in New York, c. 1957-8, in Scientific American vol. 199, no. 3, 1958) The following is meant to be a generalized framework for an extension of Kaluza-Klein Theory. Does it agree with the “Twistor Theory” of Roger Penrose, and the work of Eric Weinstein on “Geometric Unity”? During the early history of mankind, the twisting of fibers was used to produce thread, and this thread was used to produce fabrics. The twist of the thread is locked up within these fabrics. Is matter made up of twisted 3D-4D structures which store spatial curvature that we describe as “particles"? Are the twist cycles the "quanta" of Quantum Mechanics? When we draw a sine wave on a blackboard, we are representing spatial curvature. Does a photon transfer spatial curvature from one location to another? Wrap a piece of wire around a pencil and it can produce a 3D coil of wire, much like a spring. When viewed from the side it can look like a two-dimensional sine wave. You could coil the wire with either a right-hand twist, or with a left-hand twist. Could Planck's Constant be proportional to the twist cycles. A photon with a higher frequency has more energy. ( E=hf, More spatial curvature as the frequency increases = more Energy ). What if gluons are actually made up of these twisted tubes which become entangled with other tubes to produce quarks. (In the same way twisted electrical extension cords can become entangled.) Therefore, the gluons are a part of the quarks. Quarks cannot exist without gluons, and vice-versa. Mesons are made up of two entangled tubes (Quarks/Gluons), while protons and neutrons would be made up of three entangled tubes. (Quarks/Gluons) The "Color Charge" would be related to the XYZ coordinates (orientation) of entanglement. "Asymptotic Freedom", and "flux tubes" are logically based on this concept. The Dirac “belt trick” also reveals the concept of twist in the ½ spin of subatomic particles. If each twist cycle is proportional to h, we have identified the source of Quantum Mechanics as a consequence twist cycle geometry. Modern physicists say the Strong Force is mediated by a constant exchange of Mesons. The diagrams produced by some modern physicists actually represent the Strong Force like a spring connecting the two quarks. Asymptotic Freedom acts like real springs. Their drawing is actually more correct than their theory and matches perfectly to what I am saying in this model. You cannot separate the Gluons from the Quarks because they are a part of the same thing. The Quarks are the places where the Gluons are entangled with each other. Neutrinos would be made up of a twisted torus (like a twisted donut) within this model. The twist in the torus can either be Right-Hand or Left-Hand. Some twisted donuts can be larger than others, which can produce three different types of neutrinos. If a twisted tube winds up on one end and unwinds on the other end as it moves through space, this would help explain the “spin” of normal particles, and perhaps also the “Higgs Field”. However, if the end of the twisted tube joins to the other end of the twisted tube forming a twisted torus (neutrino), would this help explain “Parity Symmetry” violation in Beta Decay? Could the conversion of twist cycles to writhe cycles through the process of supercoiling help explain “neutrino oscillations”? Spatial curvature (mass) would be conserved, but the structure could change. Gravity is a result of a very small curvature imbalance within atoms. (This is why the force of gravity is so small.) Instead of attempting to explain matter as "particles", this concept attempts to explain matter more in the manner of our current understanding of the space-time curvature of gravity. If an electron has qualities of both a particle and a wave, it cannot be either one. It must be something else. Therefore, a "particle" is actually a structure which stores spatial curvature. Can an electron-positron pair (which are made up of opposite directions of twist) annihilate each other by unwinding into each other producing Gamma Ray photons? Does an electron travel through space like a threaded nut traveling down a threaded rod, with each twist cycle proportional to Planck’s Constant? Does it wind up on one end, while unwinding on the other end? Is this related to the Higgs field? Does this help explain the strange ½ spin of many subatomic particles? Does the 720 degree rotation of a 1/2 spin particle require at least one extra dimension? Alpha decay occurs when the two protons and two neutrons (which are bound together by entangled tubes), become un-entangled from the rest of the nucleons . Beta decay occurs when the tube of a down quark/gluon in a neutron becomes overtwisted and breaks producing a twisted torus (neutrino) and an up quark, and the ejected electron. The production of the torus may help explain the “Symmetry Violation” in Beta Decay, because one end of the broken tube section is connected to the other end of the tube produced, like a snake eating its tail. The phenomenon of Supercoiling involving twist and writhe cycles may reveal how overtwisted quarks can produce these new particles. The conversion of twists into writhes, and vice-versa, is an interesting process, which is also found in DNA molecules. Gamma photons are produced when a tube unwinds producing electromagnetic waves. The “Electric Charge” of electrons or positrons would be the result of one twist cycle being displayed at the 3D-4D surface interface of the particle. The physical entanglement of twisted tubes in quarks within protons and neutrons and mesons displays an overall external surface charge of an integer number. Because the neutrinos do not have open tube ends, (They are a twisted torus.) they have no overall electric charge. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Within this model a black hole could represent a quantum of gravity, because it is one cycle of spatial gravitational curvature. Therefore, instead of a graviton being a subatomic particle it could be considered to be a black hole. The overall gravitational attraction would be caused by a very tiny curvature imbalance within atoms. We know there is an unequal distribution of electrical charge within each atom because the positive charge is concentrated within the nucleus, even though the overall electrical charge of the atom is balanced by equal positive and negative charge. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this model Alpha equals the compactification ratio within the twistor cone, which is approximately 1/137. 1= Hypertubule diameter at 4D interface 137= Cone’s larger end diameter at 3D interface where the photons are absorbed or emitted. The 4D twisted Hypertubule gets longer or shorter as twisting or untwisting occurs. (720 degrees per twist cycle.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many neutrinos are left over from the Big Bang? They have a small mass, but they could be very large in number. Could this help explain Dark Matter? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why did Paul Dirac use the twist in a belt to help explain particle spin? Is Dirac’s belt trick related to this model? Is the “Quantum” unit based on twist cycles? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I started out imagining a subatomic Einstein-Rosen Bridge whose internal surface is twisted with either a Right-Hand twist, or a Left-Hand twist producing a twisted 3D/4D membrane. The model grew out of that simple idea. I was also trying to imagine a way to stuff the curvature of a 3 D sine wave into subatomic particles. .
Yes, that was bullshit. ;-)
Brian Green says that General Relativity has been derived from String Theory. Wonder if without General Relativity scientists would have been able to make a connection between String Theory and what General Theory is about, for example warped space and time?
Oh didnt know this is an old clip
Penrose is the only one worth listening to. He is one of the few people can say that he does not want to get into something because it is too technical, without that being a dodge.
I was so exited about video right before I realized that it is only a fragment. I do not like its least put in the name that it is only segment, otherwise it is very misleading.
Of course the debate is behind a paywall.
As long as you can still get funding I'm sure it's a completely worthwhile endeavor.
lol (but kinda true)
Gotta love all the internet math/physics experts in the comments section who most likely spend all day on TikTok and Twitter and can't solve a basic Calculus 1 problem, telling us why string theory "is wrong".
or right for that matter. i think the burden of proof is on string theorists anyways. atm we simply dont know.
Exactly. The real Scientific Community, like particle phiycisists, have been waiting for string theorists to provide any testable results and it has brought nothing. The media, the enthusiasts, the tiktok lovers, have wasted too much time on this useless theory. They were lied to, with lines like " in the next 10 years. we will have proof" for the last 30 years. At this point any real scientist would be embarassed.
Holy self-report Batman
por sentido comun?, o necesitamos un gran calculo para su satisfaccion?
thanks iai just where educational material belongs, behind a paywall
😮 can anyone link the complete talk?
Link in the blurb on AI website ^^^
String theory has been a dead-end since it was introduced. Beating a dead horse.
eric was 🔥🔥 and Penrose is a living legend
These videos should be free for educational purposes.
Thats the beauty of science. Trying to prove and disprove theories. I admire scientists taking shots from different angles. Imagine if no one ever done that. Probably we would still think the earth is flat til we discovered space travel.
Eric threw some heavy jargon around, but he's absolutely on point constantly here. For instance, the conversation around GR coming out of String theory being reducible to the fundamental nature of differential geometry
I actually want someone to check his jargon. I remember he tried it in another debate with Sabine, and she destroyed him repeatedly, for which he apparently still feel sore lol. Almost feels like he is trying to suck up to both Brian and Roger to gang up against Sabine.
Eric uses jargon to make himself appear smarter than he is, to people who don’t understand the jargon. (Which is most people).
@@andybaldman I definitely don't disagree. But he was certainly correct in this instance
Jargon? He reduced Greene's argument to sht in 15 words.
Nothing wrong with his statements but he utterly failed at Thiel. I interviewed at Clarium last year when they were discussing starting an equity vol-pod.
Why is Eric Weinstein in the panel? Please, don't.
Eric summed it up perfectly.
The next level of understanding is the Flower of Life. 🌼🔥👀
4:22 powerful statement
String theory is on life support.
Died multiple times. We need more wooden stakes ;-)
Both these groups have good points. I think string theory has value, even if it's untestable and makes no new predictions.
Ok, then pay for it.
I agree. As far as I understand all of physics can be derived from string theory. So if string theory was discovered before quantum mechanics then everyone would say quantum mechanics can't be tested.
If it makes no testable predictions, then it is NOT SCIENCE. Science starts with a hypothesis that makes a testable prediction. String "Theory" did have a few formulations that made testable predictions. These predictions were falsified, at which point, the "String Theorists" moved the goalposts and rejiggered the variables, and claimed that only that specific configuration was falsified. Either: 1. String "Theory" made a testable hypothesis that was falsified, and String "Theory" is therefore wrong and not part of Science any more. 2. String "Theory" cannot be falsified and was therefore never Science in the first place.
@@ackillesbac am i missing something here? why wouldnt you be able to verify quantum mechanics?
@@BuGGyBoBerl physicist tend to avoid string theory because they claim it cant be tested and therefore be proven. Quantum mechanics can be tested, has been and is well accepted as proven true. My point is if Quantum Mechanics can be derived from string theory then testing quantum mechanics is equal to testing string theory. So if string theory was discover before quantum mechanics then string theory would be accepted and quantum mechanics would be considered a simplification of string theory, much like magnetism is a simplification of the electromagnetic force.
Adding extra dimensions to make string theory work seems very much to me like adding extra ellipses in the orbits to make the original gravitational theory work. It makes me think theyre on the right track but they have to go back to an earlier branch of string theory before it became what it is today and work from there.
As an computer software engineer who specializes in AI and ML, Erics point at the end of the vid is 100% right.
Lets be honest, string theory is the cool club - and like Eric says, a club where nothing is produced, but its cool to hang out in. We need another theory. Doesn't mean einstein is right either, too many conveniences in his equations
Think Reductionistically. If you are pushing yourself outside your comfort zone, whether physically or mentally, and the PARTICULAR think you are working on requires hard discipline, then you know that is the right path, no matter how convoluted and unpredictable it will be. Accept that the purpose is not to make use of 99.999% of all that hard work, but the purpose is to prepare your brain for that final 0.001% that WILL be useful. On the other hand, if all you do is mindless speculating, and in the case of physics: speculation without calculation, without proving theorems, without formalizing new mathematical models, then you are wasting time. So it is NOT "string theory vs no string theory". It is: well-disciplined hardwork versus lazy math-less speculation.
@@theultimatereductionist7592 sometimes the most beautiful equations are those that you see in front of your eyes - lets do more experiments, lets look at nature morr than spending time in circles doing mathematical tricks.
I find string theory quite interesting and would love to do a PhD on it
They need to introduce 2D (complex) time plans - all along we have simply been assuming that time is a 1D variable.
That's a very good idea! Like most similarly good idea, this topic has already been widely explored. Look up Wick Rotation.
Care to expand?
fundamental problem of all string theories (that i know) is their additions of dimensions. it's a neat mathematical trick to make all problem values go away via another set of vertices. as far as dimensions go, and all that foolery: we only have a single dimension of space. scientists took the 3d cartesian model as reality, when it's just a model. space is not divided into xyz.
Science advances with the death of the old guard scientists
If Ed Witten had walked in on that debate....things would've taken off and Eric would've suffered heart failure ! 😎
Regarding string theory and General Relativity I have a surprising opinion/statement as follows- "Space is infinite and space time is limited.There zero dimension can be explainable which is missing in string theory." I have my own explanations to support this statement.
building a theorem to bring two approximations together to play nice is fun, but has nothing to do with the way things are.
String theory might be worth exploring but the problem is spending too much time and money on it.
Money? A few theoretical physicists working on it
Maybe let AI have a go with it
LOL. There is no viable alternative, and string theory publications are among the best ones. They are revolutionising math and different fields of physics. Only the smartest people can work in the string theory, so they are tautologically better suited than you to decide what is worth working on.
@@peceed '..string theory publications are among the best ones.' Not really. Look up the preprint archive of HEP TH. They're like a half-mad tribe in a forlorn search for the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, milking those toy 2, 3 dimensions for anything like Chern-Simons theories, or those 10, 11, 12 or 26 dimensions to play around with Calabi-Yau threefolds and superstrings and supergravity.
@@peceed I'd rather see a stab at new terrain in, say, differential geometry than one more blowhard looking at Calabi-Yau manifolds in his string-theory program with yet the 12 millionth paper on 'Ashtekar variables in a new light.'
I loved Eric here. He made such connections to both of Brian and Roger’s views, and drove the subject forward. From beauty to a more in-depth discussions of the particulars, and then from angst of the “incomplete” theory framework to a series of discussion before the motivation to tackle string theory wanes at the feet of new technologies.
No technical innovation nor technical equipment is created /innovated /maintained/ improved based on the new theoretical physics ("quantum cultism"). You can't do engineering science with abstractions.
I've always held a healthy skepticism towards Eric, he has certain character quirks and at first I suspect a lot of people can go either way with him, but I find his method of communication intriguing and possibly dare I say it, revolutionary for our internet age. For example, by doing the most extreme not-talking-down-to-the-audience and just saying things mostly with all the technical terms it creates this intrigue, for so-inclined laymen it evokes mystery, this deep blue sea vibe about mathematics and physics. I am just one example of someone who thought of mathematics as it was from school and why I hated it, there was nothing to be found really, it was following a set of instructions, what little creativity and insight there was it seemed very bounded. By listening to his stuff which had a casual entertaining exposition while dropping in all these nuggets I ended up at the age of 34 self-studying mathematics and it brought a whole new dimension to my life. I suspect even if only 0.1% of people get this same intrigue he has done probably more good than any math professor in terms of widening the net and bringing in people who will end up having interesting ideas, as opposed to the people who are 'good at math' from early school right through to phd, who are highly capable but may have quite similar backgrounds, experiences and ways of thinking about math. Unfortunately I'm not the sharpest tool in the box so it will remain a lifelong hobby for me, but even for that addition I am thankful. For really smart people who happen to be artists or creative a-mathematicians it really could help uncover some gems.
His lot evolved to play the middleman
I have watched some debates where Sir Roger Penrose strongly goes against of quantum mechanics. He says the basement of quantum mechanics superposition is incorrect, 26 dimensions don't exist. I also do not like this much because its super weird. Now according to Sir Penrose's point of view, are there any parts of quantum mechanics actually true and are needed to gain knowledge?
So, the debate is behind a pay wall. How great for science and keeping the public informed. No wonder why people loose interest.