Climbing PITONS Tested
2020 ж. 29 Қыр.
103 987 Рет қаралды
We smashed in climbing pitons like you use for hard aid routes in big walling and then… PULLED THEM OUT with a pulley system and a dynamometer.
Email passthepitonspete@hotmail.com if you want the book “Hooking Up”.
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8:13 You literally lifted the rock up with this wedge-shaped piton. After it fell out, the upper part of the rock fell down about 0.5 mm
You only tested 2 of the 3 possible loading directions. Straight out, parallel with the crack and perpendicular to the crack. I am certain that loading perpendicular to the crack will give the best strength.
yeah and that's the most normal mode of use, everyone knows that it works
All you need to know about Pitons: kzhead.info/sun/ftSmn8eDrmNuao0/bejne.html
@@brienfoaboutanything9037 That video is about something completely unrelated to what this video is about
I know you know your stuff, but get with the program here.
just wanted to say thank u so much for being just an amazing duo of lads that are incredible wealths of knowledge
The piton at 8:12 that pulled at 9700 really opened that crack up! You can see it shift back in the video
I was impressed how the top rock was moving. And once more at 11:17. But ist's the same here kzhead.info/sun/qZGHo82qg4qLgKM/bejne.html
Would it then not be stronger on a real mountain or a place you would climb? As ofc the thing cant hold an entire mountain.
You do a great job with the channel. So much info and beautiful to look at. Crazy that you can make a video on the side of a cliff or in the middle of a rope in a canyon. If more people did this type of stuff you would have a million subs but it's just kind of a niche thing . Keep it up.
Fun and awesome video like always! Thanks guys!
8:15 “yehh that felt a lot better when i put it in. it was longer too!!” gotta love some gear testing ;)
I was taught that an eye of a vertical piton should always be down (in the direction of pull) and snug against the rock. This way it should be harder to twist it out. Care to try more placements? Many people around the world are using those as protection. Cheers!
Pavlo Deshko. No matter where is the eye of the piton it's better when the level of it get crossed to the axis of the crack. This situation forced the piton to rotate around itself and give a lot more friction between the metal and the rock. That's why in the old days that they didn't have quickdraws they put a lanier with an "alouett" knot at the edge of the eye and not at the main axis of the piton.
I'm not a climber but I love this content. Learning new things is always a good thing and you never know, might come in handy one day. Love all the torture test stuff like breaking equipment.
Thanks for the video. Regarding you're question on why pulling straight out holds better than sideways, I remind you this is how you remove the pitons from the rock. But I think you could get better results from cross loads. You're pulling alongside the crack, try pulling perpendicular to the crack, that is downwards if it's an horizontal crack and sideways if it's a vertical crack.
Thanks for your sharing 👍
The whole fkin rock face at 8:12 sunk down.... Holy shit those have crazy wedging forces!
they use rows of pins to quarry stone, and they have hydraulic wedges for destroying rock
Good to know how much I can trust them when I find them as fixed gear on free routes.
You should also do copperheads and circleheads. Most folks use a funkness device to remove pins on nailing pitches. I blew a hook and fell onto a tied-off KB and it held in a vertical seam. I was really happy about that.
Great video. For those reading this their coffee is great. Once I’m off furlough (COVID 😭) I plan on buying monthly. Keep up the great vids!
not a climber . any open heights weird me out. but I've always had questions about the rigging you guys use. your videos answer so many of my questions. thank you
Would love to see you guys test 1/4 inch button heads in granite since they are still going in on FA, aid and canyoneering routes. Local, can supply if needed.
Yeeeeeees! But also wtf those are still used?
@@rachelhasbruises That is a great question. Ask a lot of people and you will get a lot of different answers. They solve specific unique problems, and at one time they were the best option, but now although potentially better alternatives exist, people still go with what they know. Placing them well is becomming a lost art of the old guys who have a fondness for them. But when done right, they were surprisingly strong and tested far better than other 1/4 inch alternatives. Possibly due to the lack of threads. There are reports of them holding north of 3,500 lbs, while a threaded wedge of the day sheared at 800lbs and was highly prone to metal fatigue. Everone has their stories but the fact that so many popular routes originally were protected with these for years, without many accidents says something. People went with them because empirically they were working. Many bc routes in Sierra granite are still covered in these. And in a lot of the exploratory phases of first ascents or decents they still go in. Sometimes time can be a factor between life and death, and in other places hand drilling on lead for a FA is part of the ethics for an area. Other times it is felt no human will ever see them again. They're still a common alternative for aid ladders, and you see people placing them with double washers and no hanger so that they can be replaced without damaging Rock. In some wet canyons no other 1/4" bolt is capable of retaining a hanger more than a season except a button head. Many parties have the intention, if the line goes, of replacing what was supposed to be temporary Hardware but often times it may take 20 years. So should we be looking at something else? There are stainless alternatives now that reportedly hold more than 5,000 pounds. But people go with what they know. As long as people have a need for quarter inch hardware, the button head seems to still be making appearances, albeit seen by very few people. And the bigger hardware doesn't necessarily make it any safer. In one Ryan's videos he tested a 1/2" powerstud. Way better than any 1/4" button head... yet it failed with a few hundred pounds of force because they failed to place it with enough thread engagement. These guys arguably have more experience bolting then a lot of people placing bolts these days... and that coukld have been a fatal mistake, and I see it in the wild. Some stainless studs in granite suffer from this due to the old practice of backing the nut over the stud to protect the threads from the hammer. But modern studs have extra unthreaded metal for this purpose such that when they quickly come up to low stainless torque specs in very hard rock, not all the threads wind up engaged. If it looks flush and tidy, look closer. Most will loose their hangers anyway. Bigger doesn't always mean better. And it is really disheartening to see how many bad placements are showing up now that a cheap impact dril is accessible to almost anyone. Many will argue they still have a special need for 1/4" hardware. Assuming they know what they're doing, should this relic still be used? What better Alternatives exist? And because a lot of them are still in service, I think a lot of inquiring minds would like to know. If a better alternative shakes out, it could change things.
Seeing the holding power of knotted slings would be cool! Also the effectiveness of different “safety” knots when tying in
I sent him a batch of knots, including knotted loops (slings). Flemish bend, alpine butterfly (both parallel and perpendicular ended), zeppelin bend, sheet bend, reever bend, and double fisherman's bend. Also the corresponding loop knots. Edelweiss 7mm 9.8kn accessory cord. So expect an episode with that at some point.
Ii @HowNOT2, you may want to revisit this test, but with a solid, expansive face of granite. those boulders were moving which while analogous to large flakes and other fissures on a climb, may not represent a "straight in" crack per se. Killer channel, I pull your videos up when we begin pondering sketchy anchors!
I saw an old Salathe piton on Mt Starr King, I tried to pull it but couldn't get it out. I'll PM you where it was if you want to go get it.
There are lots of old rusty pitons in classic multi pitch routes in the Alps (e.g. the Steinerweg on the Dachstein in Austria). I wonder how much they can still take.
Great content, I was wondering if you had any plans on testing Tri Cams in a real rock setting. I think there great in certain situations. But I think their main weak point is the pin and it'd be great to see them get tested.
TriCams, please!!
kzhead.info/sun/ltuxiaWXqJiIpWw/bejne.html
You guys are awesome! How about testing some heads next? Also would love to see the how the beer knot compares to sewn slings.
beer knot tests are a great idea I second!
I agree. Test some heads!
Testing ice gear like what is needed to hike the Tetons in July is a nech request from a new subscriber
Great vídeos! You could do some micro pro nesting and make pull OuT tests!
So the friction forces in an impact force (shock load being the term you used) and a slow pull are very different. Not only that but the way stress is distributed in the object. Slowly loading it is a good test but not entirely equivalent.
Thnx for the vid
Interesting how you were able to lift the rock and you can see it shift back down when you pull the knife blade (just after 11:17)
Physics Explanation: Static friction is what keeps the box from moving without being pushed, and it must be overcome with a sufficient opposing force before the box will move. Kinetic friction (also referred to as dynamic friction) is the force that resists the relative movement of the surfaces once they're in motion. At an angle, the piton works as a fulcrum where a greater rotational force is created on the rock end while the rope end can just pivot in the rock at the same place. Kinetic friction is weaker so once the piton starts rotating leveraged by the fulcrum it pops out with less force.
Well, in Italy those are STILL used for protection (not aiding, protection) on many classical routes in the Alps and Dolomites ahahah
Let's clarify one thing, it's not common to see alpinists going out with 15 pitons to protect a whole route, but if the route you choose has many pitons already in place you'll take the hammer with you so you can fix them and assure that they are firmly in there. But once you take the hammer you'll also take 3/4 pitons just in case (I mean you already have a 2 pounds hammer, half a pound more of pitons are not going to feel heavy right?) And in the end you'll eventually use one maybe 2 just because you have them. So even if sometimes one or two pitons disappear, sometimes new ones appears instead. And on classical traditional route it's always fascinating in my opinion
The slow motion of the lost arrow 2nd pull you can watch the whole top rock go back down from where the peton was holding it up
Piton Pete is local to me, super nice guy.
Re: shock versus slow pull that you mention early in the video Let the record show that I think falling on toothed ascenders will show different results for a slow pull versus dynamic shock. ;) Chomp, chomp chomp...!
Thank you for the video! Would have been cool to see it pulled up- or downwards like in a fall, or find a horizontal crack and pull it sideways?
Woah yeah that would have pulled the piton at the end. That's great to know
Love them videos. Great stuff. Did you test rusty bolts in salty environment. Like sport climbing crag next to the sea, how much it holds etc... ? Did not find on your channel. Interesting subject I believe, so dangerous.
A real-life test is described in www.amazon.com/Sicherheit-Risiko-Fels-Eis-01/dp/3763360166 (unfortunately not available in English), on in-situ, somewhat rusty pitons in the Alps. The bottom line is "anywhere between
Sent you an email about the Labjack, sorry for not getting to you sooner
visual artists never came without t joints
8:12 whoa you can see the whole rock drop when it pulled out.
Please try the same tests in better rock! It seems pretty clear that it's the chossy rock causing the failures and not the pitons themselves.
I think that's granite, my dude......
Yea. and I want to test pulling perpendicular too... I just couldn't get the placement and angle for the pulleys.
@@rachelhasbruises Choss does not discriminate! There's a lot of chossy granite out there...
Huge argoument! pitons! in the dolomites you cannot do climb without thoose. It' s super interesting that there are two categories (P)= progression and rate for 15kn and (S)= 30kn
This was quite interesting. I don't use pitons hardly ever, just occasionally ice climbing or winter alpine. I am not that qualified, but I did think that the one's you pulled from the side didn't sound as good as the ones you pulled strait out. I wonder if the technique of hitting them sideways partway through driving them weakens the placement. Maybe some old piton masters will show up and educate us.
The piton at 12:50 should have been clipped in the other hole, so that the carabiner torques the piton blade (See m.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Pitons ) Would have been interesting to see the difference.
So that is why we get awsome holds on boulders
“We’re moving our whole system again” -> aka Bobby’s moving the whole system again, lol
dont know if anyone has contacted you about the high speed force measuring, but I may know a way to get some fast readings. just let me know and id be happy to help.
Thanks guys I just about to buy some for a line I want to develop 👍 can you explain again what you want for a measuring device?
For dynometer maybe a wireless display reader can help you let me know if that helps you and I will try to find some random tech freak to build on for you 😅😅
You might be able to get it done cheaper with something like a compound bow string pull weight scale...It won't give you Kn but you can get pounds of pull force...It's also analog so no need for batteries..It can give you peak force as well
A labjack, it's a device that passes data from the dynamometer to a computer, for storing it so you don't only see the peak force, but the whole force-time graph
Hi, I bought some death rope from my gym and I would like to send it to you so you can test washing it with on the washing machine and maybe drying it in the dryer... Would you be interested? How can i send it to you? Cheers
The power of the inclined plain...14:00
Hello, team HowNOT2. To me it is clearly seen at 8:12 to 8:15 that the rock above the crack is moving. The hoge chunk is settling down after you pooled out the tool. As I know from my humble education such tools can create huge pressures, thus lifting/shiftings tones of rock. I was actually glad to be able to point out thanks to the quallity of the footage you made there. Engeneer's advise will be wellcomed by the viewers following your work. Climbing is daingerous and one should be as cautious when teaching others. Tests will be more precise if you guys bother to use engeneer consult. Cheers!
Can we get some numbers on the screen ??? Like normal kn vs the tested pull And what a normal fall weight is
hey , i wonder why u test them mostly straight out. when used and handling a real drop it would be a 85° degree downwards that they are being pulled . really wanna see how they perform in that situation . maybe find a crack on top and then use ur mechanism of pulling . :)
how many tress do slack liners kill? serious question.
hey i have a 30 years old climbing rope from mammut in really good condition ( max 10 times climbed), are you interested in testing it?
Never ever ever will I climb anything in my life yet here I am on my 3rd video about rock climbing tools😂😂
8:12 that's not a rock; that's two rocks.
You quite often use paracord in your testing setup. Have you ever done break testing on paracord? Might be a video idea.
Shock loads are different from static loads for dyneema/spectra. Knots on dyneema are so weak for dynamic loading, that in standard rock climbing courses in Poland they advise against tying any knots on dyneema. I guess there will be no difference between shock/static for metal parts of gear.
At 15:20 you said that you didn't get the pure tone when you struck the piton. I think this tone is the natural frequency of the piton, probably the fundamental as a cantilever, and gets excited due to the small amount of lateral energy due to inaccuracy in you hitting it. It gets higher as the piton is hammered in because the part sticking out of the rock is getting shorter and stiffer. Not getting the tone means that the rock is absorbing the vibration instead of being rigid. This probably means it was in sand instead of solid rock, or the rock is choss and breaking into sand. Either way its not holding the piton rigidly.
Or the rock is moving (or to look at it another way, the crack is expanding).
Are those knife blade really meant to be pulled in the exact angle you pulled it in ? In a real life crack it would pull down side and have more friction ?
I wonder how much influence time as a factor has on how strong these guys can get, and don’t we usually fall on these perpendicular to how they are fixed? Seemed a little bit lower than I expected having fallen on some. Maybe I just want to feel safe on these, but it seems the conclusion of this video is that climbing on pitons might be one of the boldest forms of climbing.
Nice channel. If Deadpool had a twin brother...
I really don’t find slow pull the same a jerk force. As a mechanic I can tell you there is a vast difference. This is important if you are hanging weight on it but falling an bounce is more force then a gradual pull
Always you use pitons wear glasses!!! I had an injurie eye while climbing in south america (rock fragment stucked into my eye)
Makes me wonder if the first pitons were repurposed tent stakes?
Am I right that in the second play of the second lost arrow test (approx 8:10) you can see the top rock move?
And now I am at the end of the part of the video where you talk about it…
Nice hammer swings grandma
I noticed the rock dropping too! I thought maybe I was delusional until you mentioned it too
the piton at 12:50 is not loaded correctly. you should have used to other hole to add some kind of caming functionality. that would have most likely increased the numbers
Several people have commented that more kilo Newtons (kN) would be required to pull these pins if the pull were 90 degrees from the plane of the crack. True enough, but such a test does not reflect the real world climbing situation. (Nor do the straight out pulls shown here.) In the real world, we are usually climbing cracks that take us from the bottom to the top of the rock. Thus in either the aid situation or the free situation the direction of the force on the protection (basically a line) lies close to the plane of the crack. Only occasionally do we find a crack that is horizontal. So a test pulling straight out do not simulate the forces generated in a common climbing situation (as Ryan said, the most likely real world situation would be when nailing a roof). Situations where the force is perpendicular to the plane of the crack are relatively uncommon. I do not know on why Chouinard chose to use "Lost Arrow" as his trademark for these pitons. But I will ask you to remember why those cracks on El Cap are still called the Stove Legs.
The lost arrow spire.
@@BlindDesertPete I looked it up. Actually, Lost Arrows were developed by John Salathe for the first ascent of the Lost Arrow Chimney (and first climbing (e.g. non-tyrollean) ascent of the Arrow tip) in 1947). I guess "Lost Arrow" became a generic term for hardened chrome-moly style pitons that Salathe made to distinguish them from the softer European imports available at the time. When Chouinard started making pitons in 1957, he and his customers must have continued to use the generic term to describe the pitons he made. Interesting that Chouinard was able to trademark "Lost Arrow" in 1974 and claim "first use in commerce" in 1965.
@@justriley9157 I know; I have few myself. I am not questioning the strength of Chouinard pins per se, only the utility of testing the resistance of these pins to being pulled out of a crack when the pulling force is perpendicular to the plane of the crack or perpendicular to the plane of the rock face. I also became interested in the "Lost Arrow" trademark, registered in 1974 and still in force for MOUNTAINEERING EQUIPMENT-NAMELY, PITONS. The current owner is Black Diamond Equipment.
Test different harnesses please! New and old. I’m curious how much strength they lose over time
kzhead.info/sun/nZqrZ86Pjop-l6M/bejne.html
Pitons are not designed to work in that direction. Pull should be downwards, forming a 90º or less angle with the piton. In this downward motion most forces work shearing the piton, not extracting it. You could expect some 60% increase by testing like this.
did you see at 8:14 how the crack closes down?? the piton was held solely by the weight of the rock, not pinched by its elasticity. try different rock weight and crack angle and get totally different values! looks as i jumped my comment b4 seeing that everybody else saw it.......
Maybe try pulling it downwards but place above to simulate a fall
I'm surprised that a slim metal wedge hammered in (with a very small hammer) can even hold bodyweight! So for me even the worst examples shown are super good enough. 2.32kn for example, that is way enough to hold a person. But of course you would use multiple.
Test Harbor Freight rope and carabiner.
Lesss gooooo bobby
The lost arrow lifted the rock on top. Watch it in the slow mo
When I get a job and get some money I'll donate $20!
Try it with stove legs.
I've never used these, but I think you should not place them in a vertical crack for paralel load.
Creating a fulcrum at the point where the piton is pinched when pulling sideways
Leverage vs friction
Like others pointed out, to really load those pitons you could have pulled them perpendicularly to the crack!!!
I want to! Couldn't do it with this rock
Not a climber but I always assumed that you places pitons in a way that it gets loaded on a 90 degree angle if able. not just straight out I guess climber did that kinda scary
WHy dont you have a join button ?
Ryan you're a cat man, so whose dogs are they, Bobby's? That first dog is a star, give him a co-presenter role please.
I know it’s nice to see that extra level of safety, but isn’t the point of a piton to stop you falling downwards, not out or sideways?
The lost arrow moved the whole boulder top peice
I don’t really understand why you would ever want to us these to prevent direct pulls, or forces parallel to the crack. In my mind the these seem like they would hold against forces orthogonal to the crack far better.
You guys are saving lives. The vertical world tends to have few doubts. Few experiments are done. And you die 😔☠️. An experimental mentality, on the other hand, helps not to presuppose (the art of idiots), but instead to verify, to test🤓. Being in a vacuum is not a harmless game🤕😑🚑⚰️. A lot of experience is needed, along with open-mindedness. Thank you so much 🤗
serious testing is done for longer, longer than even youtube exists, the results of those tests are printed in books. youtube is a fairly new media and just a tiny bit of research is done in this format. there are serious tests, way more serious than on this channel. kzhead.info/sun/mNWTgdJ7fp5oZ3k/bejne.html
Theoretically speaking could you hang a hammock on two of these or maybe hang one from the ceiling off of a couple cams?
Theoretically, if the hammock were strong enough, you could hang a hammock from a couple of these and place an SUV in it.
Hey HowNOTtoHIGHLINE, If you'd like some bolts to test, I have a bunch of 23 year old five-piece bolts that I removed from a sea cliff. The heads were slightly rusty, but most of the teeth were fine. Once removed I thought they looked great, HOWEVER, about 6 of them that also looked great SNAPPED under body weight! Since we know the weak part is the head, and I want to know the strength of the heads, maybe you could glue them in with a hanger and pull them in sheer.
interesting. please send me photos to skylining@live.com
This is kind of testing the rock and the placement quality more than anything else. Very interesting nonetheless! Love it! The ethics of climbing in America seems really weird to me as a British climber. We always endeavour to leave zero damage to the rock and aid climbing is definitely less common. You see a lot of rusty old pitons on old trad lines. I think the ethic there is to leave them in place until they rot out and then replace like for like or not at all. Ripping them out to keep your gear makes sense on a big wall otherwise youd need a literal ton of gear. Sounds very much like "chipping" of gear placements is the end effect. A sketchy piton turns over the years into a bomber cam. 😂 That would drop a grade in the brits books 😜
"BITD" is getting further and further into the stone age, BCE, ha, ha.
You guys do a great job. BUT. its kinda obvious that you were not brought up on pins, ie.pitons. For mixed climbing and hard alpine pitons are still relevant. a full on lost arrow horizontal placement is probably stronger than the biner or rope. Just saying.
What do you suggest they should have done differently other than pulling in sheer? They just pulled in tension to see the worst case.
@@EvanWisheropp They should have pulled at 90 degrees to the placement as most pins are
@@justriley9157 Read my comment again. I said what could they have done OTHER THAN pulling in sheer (aka 90 degrees). Using a logical conclusion you would see that I had already suggested pulling in sheer. I also said that pulling in tension (as they did) is a worst case pin scenario, such as hammering a pin directly up into a roof. Consider being less of a prick.
@@justriley9157 Heyup. Had a couple of friends on the north face of the Matterhorn in summer . leader took a fall , no runners, probably 200 foot at least and was held in a horizontal well place peg, on not the best rock. Obviously it was the best rock around. Thanks mate.
Motion Labs will have the load cell capabilities you are looking for. They are who we use for entertainment production rigging systems. www.motionlabs.com/
Piton placement must be done "cum grano salis". I'd never use one the way you did in this video until I was forced to.
Shock loads are not the same