Simon visited expert bike fitter to the pros Phil Burt to find out whether there is a perfect saddle height for cycling. Using high tech Retül mapping, Phil and Si take a deep dive into the data and mechanics of bike riding to help find the optimal saddle position to maximise comfort, efficiency and power output.
00:00 Intro
01:05 What is the optimal saddle height?
02:50 Testing Si’s flexibility
04:07 Simple saddle height methods
05:44 Retül dynamic data capture
07:05 Why is the saddle too low?
08:01 Raising the saddle height
08:39 Bringing the saddle forward
09:57 How do the adjustments feel?
11:19 Understanding your riding style
13:20 Si’s crank length
14:17 What about less experienced cyclists?
17:07 Back to Si’s original position
18:07 The impact of pedalling style
18:46 Would shorter cranks make a difference?
19:52 Unpacking the data
21:42 So, does a perfect saddle height exist?
23:41 Si’s post-bike fit summary
25:41 How to find your saddle height at home
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Have you ever had a bike fit to find your optimal saddle height and riding position?
When I got my gravelbike I had a bike fit. Good decision so far. Meanwhile I changed some things. So I think I will have another bike fit next year.
Proper saddle height and position is indeed a must in riding. Also don't forget to consider the right saddle, to fully optimize the balance on power transfer and comfort.
Yeah, Matt Bottrell on my TT bike specifically for ironman. Combined with replacing the front end poles the entire package made a lot of difference. It was quite specific for long distance, but didn't seem to make much concession to comfort.
I did DIY fit. Bought a guide written by a bikefitter, webcam and downloaded (free) software to record and measure my joint angles. Very enlightening process. Just to know the numbers and principles of bikefit is vital information to understand anything about bikefit. Before that i just adjusted something and had no idea how it would affect everything else. If i was able to resolve some issue it was pure change. What even most basic bikefit does is set bike into certain set-state and give you numbers on it. From there on you can do adjustments and have something to fall back into if things go bad.
No but I did a DIY bike fit and changed my cranks from 172.5 to 170. Suits me sir!
I am a seasoned cyclist, 68 y.o. although in denial ;-) and converted to 165mm cranks and couldn't be happier. We lose our hip flexion with age. I rode 175 cranks for decades...I am exactly the same size as Simon...same arm and leg length...same 186cm height aka 6'1"...I am American. This bike fitter is impressively smart. Crank length changes gearing and not speed. I in fact asked Sheldon Brown this question years ago and he said the same thing. In fact, most can turn a higher RPM on shorter cranks more comfortably which makes power generation at steady state faster because Power is proportional to RPM with same pedal force. Simon is a great cyclist. Better than 99% who do it and yet, look how open minded he is to his saddle height and setback. Me too and I have been at it longer than Simon. Saddle height is extremely nuanced...how aggresive you ride and how closed your hip angle and how much you ankle...Simon ankles more than me even though I tend to toe point a bit like Simon. I largely adjust saddle height based upon feel and eye toward knee angle at bottom of the pedal stroke. Don't fall in love with your saddle height. There maybe a better saddle height and setback for you.
All of this is just a science of belief. The same like while ago was believed that 25mm tires were the most optimal for Tour de France and today scientifically believed that 32mm are the most optimal. The same like it was scientifically believed that chicken eggs rises cholesterol, and today’s scientific belief states that chicken eggs actually reduce cholesterol.
@@tongotongo3143 Well said. As many things in life if waxing philosophic. Take saddle to bar drop. Greater bar drop closes the hip angle. Hip angle relates to crank length and saddle height including setback. A giant, insoluble puzzle subject to interpretation. Consider a highly optimized TdF rider. Why doesn't every single TdF rider ride with 1 full inch more saddle to handlebar drop? Aerodynamics are king on a racing bike. Less rider frontal area typically translates into greater speed...until it doesn't. When are drops rendered unusable? Why did 7 TdF winner Lance Armstrong...they all doped...why did Lance ride with only 75mm of saddle to bar drop and rode one size up from his average height a 58cm? Because he was faster on that bike will open hip angle and more stretched out. There is no ideal formula for bike fit or saddle height. The Lemond formula doesn't work for many including me.
It’s pleasure to meet a wise man these days. Yes, Le Mond formula isn’t the most optimal for me either. There are other better formulas, but all of them, and people who implement them, do not talk about the fact that when a real alive human body sits on a bicycle, the saddle collapses from 5mm up to 1cm, and the shoe sole also brings from 6mm up to 1cm variable! Those together can bring almost up to 2 cm difference, and this is a lot. My believe is, the best saddle height adjustment is to sit very straight on a saddle with your shoes on, and rise your saddle very precisely up until your shoes’ heels just barely touch the pedal when your leg is fully extended. Shoes on and leg fully extended are the key moments.
@@tongotongo3143 with all that said just get a bike fit to take out the guessing game. Plain and simple. Not many cyclists even the seasoned one have great body awareness.
It’s nothing to do with body awareness. I have developed my own saddle height formula based on human biomechanics and mathematics. But for ordinary people I just explain it more simple ways.
I would be interested to see a beginner / someone who isn’t an ex pro go through a bike fit. But an interesting video none the less!
As a 77 year old cyclist coming back after a heart attack to keep fit .I would be more than happy to put my hand up for the opportunity.
RIP
I’d volunteer but the cost to ship me and my bike to the uk. The us to the uk trip might be a bit pricey. Jokes aside yea I agree. All my by 2 new bike in 20 years maybe to big I don’t have a saddle higher then my bars . But I’m comfortable for 30 to 40 miles. But I bet I’d benefit from a proper fit
I volunteer Harriet
@niallshakeshaft1524’s-comment/post “I would be interested to see a beginner / someone who isn’t an ex pro go through a bike fit. But an interesting video nonetheless the less!”: A ex-pro = someone who has been-through professional-level bike-races. That’s the-only-difference between Si and alot-of-us. They’re (ie. Professional-cyclists and Semi-pros and Retired-pros) just People, just like us.
Si is a great presenter, kept asking good questions which made this video a lot better than other bike fit videos I have watched! Keep rocking the glasses!
Hope the video was useful!
He is a quality presenter…totally agree…
I also think Si genuinely was interested in knowing these things as well. Understanding why he was making these changes. All useful information to have as a cyclist.
Si is a great presenter!
I agree.
I'm a fan of trying to get things in the ball park on a trainer, then going for a ride with a multi tool and making slight adjustments based on real world riding feel. That to me creates the "perfect" fit.
cool story bro
agreed!
I know there are a few watts to be gained by raising my saddle, but I'm not a racer and I am in a comfortable window where I can ride long rides without any joint pain in my current position. I went down in frame size to a 56 when I bought my Bianchi, however, because I had to accept that with age I was losing the flexibility to ride a 130mm slammed stem in a stretched out position. The best bike is the one you can ride comfortably, at the end of the day.
Fascinating. Thank you, Simon, for this informative video. The questions you asked were exactly the ones I was thinking about. You both summed up this topic well, and as clear as can be. Once again, great job.
HOW did I miss this one?! SO informative - I'm currently in a slow, but progressive march towards a much more efficient and comfortable saddle position, and I believe that you've given me the insight I've been looking for to get to the next rung on that ladder. Thanks SO much for this!
Love Si's self/others awareness. Of all GCN's presenters, you do the best job of verbalizing how your experience likely differs from us more casual riders. 👍👍
What a great video. The discussion at the end about "ideal" saddle height, fit windows, and adjusting fit within that window based on how the rider feels is invaluable. Fantastic to have more info out there about flexibility in fit.
You’re a great presenter Simon. Really enjoying your style, approach to passage of information and humour. Thanks
Very Well Done !! Clear, no fluff, nuanced and insightful.
Great video! This inspired me to check on my position, carried out the Lemond method, raised saddle by almost 1cm, moved saddle forwards, went out for a 30 mile ride. The difference in comfort and power output was incredible, felt more "in charge of my bike", if that makes sense! It's a reminder that we always need to review our set up every now and again, and don't be afraid to experiment as long as you record the changes you make.
Si’s ankles and the word beautiful in the same sentence…someone’s getting a Christmas card next year.
Si promises he didn't pay Phil to say that, but we're not so sure...! 😂
Great video. I recently went through a bike fit that utilised the Retul system and it was an excellent experience that addressed back strain I would regularly get about 45 min into the ride.
There was a wonderfully positive frustration sitting underneath this conversation. The tension of two completely valid and correct points of view interacting and layering on top of each other, laying foundations to explore new and improved territory.
I've had 6 fits, BG, Retul, others etc... + several adjustments, all set my saddle too high, and did not correct my LLD because the numbers did not say anything was an issue. The BG fit said my sit bones were 114 mm instead of 124 mm which put me on a narrow saddle for years. All this this lead to fighting through extreme nerve pain, a disc bulge, asymmetric hip issues and SI joint pain. Then I started experimenting on my own and learn as much as I could about fitting, now I'm pain free after 10 years of issues, I am able to use a negative stem and had the best season ever. Lower saddle, wider saddle that is the right shape, arch support and some minor LLD correction.
Great video and goes to show the importance of a professional bike fit. I had one done for my main road bike and just something as simple as insoles in my cycling shoes changed my knee action and prevented injury.
A really good video and you know why? Because Si was actually going through that fit and asked all the questions he genuinely had, this is what makes it so interesting. Not a polished version of ‘what-can-learn-when-you-go-to-a-bike-fit’. I really, really enjoyed this video - thank you Si.
Great video on fitting and I completely agree with "the window" of getting into the correct position. I would really like to see Simon go with a crank swap test to the 170 length for a few months to compare. Thanks for the content!!!
Would be interesting to see the compete change over for Si with crank etc. and see ftp test against both. 👍
Great video. The section at the end where Phil mentioned ageing and the need to reconsider your position was really pertinent to me. I got a new bike in my late 40s having ridden extensively (raced track, crits, TT and road, loads of very long-distance touring etc. so a LOT of miles) since childhood. When I was racing, I had quite an aggressive position - I'm very flexible, so a stretched out position used to be easy and comfortable. However, when I got the new bike, Paul Hewitt in Preston suggested a less aggressive position as befitted my advancing years. What a difference - more power without sacrificing any comfort, more than offset a slightly less aero position which, less face it, is not so important for 400km Audaxes when average speed is 20-25 kmph. So I looked at my position on my other bikes too as made changes all round.
Great video and topic! Thank you, Si!!
Best saddle height vidéo on KZhead ever! Finally. Giving power to thé felling on thé saddle and adjust rather than trusting a stranger and a software.
I definitely appreciate Simon trying to extract as much info as he could from Phil. I'm not sure this video actually helps me any more than any of the other saddle height videos, though I was excited to watch 27 minutes on saddle height. I know I've fallen into the trap of paying attention to the numbers, like using formulas and thinking about where my saddle "should" be, even though the formulas usually put it higher for me than is comfortable. Kinetic cycle (youtube) recommends heel on pedal with NO SHOES then going down 3-5mm and starting there, AND basing it on the shortest (physically or functionally) of your legs as you sit comfortably on the saddle, without dropping hip to get heel to pedal. Based on where Simon's heel was when he started this video, that would leave a good 3cm gap between his foot and the pedal. Quite a huge difference, and again speaks to the idea that there is a range of saddle heights for any person. I believe tending towards the low end of the range is best for me anyway, but someone else could feel different. Saddle height is definitely a cycling rabbit hole that I think people shouldn't mess with unless they are having pain.
I got a Retül fit around 2010 when I was cycling daily. It’s the best thing I’ve ever bought for cycling. Made me faster and more comfortable. I know I should have had another one since, but the fit still works for me today over 12 years later.
Very informational... will surely remember "not millimeter perfect" and within the "optimal window". Thank you!
I have had the best luck using a variation of the Lemond method called the 109% method. The logic is that the 88% measurement to the bottom bracket in the Lemond does not take into account crank length. So multiply your inseam in cm by 1.09 and instead of measuring to the bottom bracket instead measure to the spindle of the pedal. This is very useful for me as I currently have different length cranks on one of my favorite bikes. I've been much happier since I started using this method.
Very informative. Great explanation as well. Cheers!
Fascinating! What an insight. I have just acquired Bauke Mollema's Trek Madone from 2022, 58cm frame, (his 3rd Madone actually so almost never ridden). There is only 1 cm difference in our heights and I only dropped the saddle 2 mm, however his bars are 38cm -13% 110mm. Not only do I feel unsafe on the bike I can't ride more than a 45 minutes in (t)his position without feeling total corporal strain (I'm 64 and Bauke is 36). I am changing the handlebars to 40cm -7% 100mm to match my other Madone. This experience brought home the unbelievable difference between how pros ride and how amateurs ride (I typically ride, per year, 10k-12k kms and 10k-15k metres of climb), and how body position and bike fit are very personally related to your goals and objectives as a cyclist.
I did a lot of road riding in the mid 80s to 90s, and about 7 years ago took up riding again. I had a basic fit done to get cleat positions worked out. At the end of 2019 I got a new carbon bike and a full Retul fit done. First time I rode the new bike on the road, it felt like I had been riding it for years. Everything was in the right place. Absolutely amazing what they can do these days vs. back in the 80s.
I really like how you started with two, DIY, methods to get you in the ballpark.
I'm curious as to why this wasn't tested at a threshold load. I find that saddle height affects my muscle recruitment a lot at higher loads; mainly not being able to use my glutes/hamstrings when the saddle height is wrong. It's hard to feel that when pedaling at a low effort.
What an eloquent sensitive and realistic bike fitter. Gem.
Excellent, simply excellent, loved Si's approach and analysis. Also good to hear the opinions of such an experienced bike fitter, no dogma but instead a flexible approach based on experience, perfect 👍 Also nice to hear the good old heel in pedal baseline didn't get kicked into the weeds, as I've heard from one or two other so called experts, after all we all need a starting point right 🤔 Great stuff, bring on the next one...
What else would you like to see Si take a deep dive into?
I begin to say sorry for my bad english 😊. Thanks for this episode. It made me raise my saddle 1cm. Have been riding with the new saddle height since this episode came out. What I have noticed is that I am less fatigued in my inner or lower quads. I was a bit afraid that I would get pain in my knees. I also noticed that I can push myself more. So thanks 😊
Very good one. Hope to see more like this, just quality content 👌
What other deep dives with experts would you like to see us make?
Great just to hear ,and take in all the tangential considerations. Bike comfort and optimal crank arm length , and for me in the end you are fitting to a "window" because you need to be comfortable in the drops as well.
Great, great content!
The science is fascinating. Thank you. One more bit to consider. I have different saddle heights for MTB and CX. I move more on the MTB, so it feels better to have it a few mm lower. High power output CX is more frequently sitting, MTB standing. It works for me. Sorry, don't own a road bike anymore.
Great video-learned a lot today! Thank you
Philosophy versus physiology. Well said. I’ve got a plumb and goniometer and once you record the values where you are comfortable when fresh and also fatigued, then I just stay within a small plus minus window when changing bikes. And of course bring my favorite 2008-current saddle model with me. The trusty Aliante.
7:50 brilliant that finally someone actually explains why this “heel on pedal” reference doesn’t always work. Every time I question my fit and research if it is correct I come back to these basic guidelines and then question why they don’t work for me
same, i followed this, i felt like my seat was way too low, after i set it more high again, i realised how much extra watts i was missing out
Bear in mind that the "heel on pedal" is a starting point (as is the "knee over pedal spindle") not the end of the bike fit.
Great vid si. My ethos has always been trial and error. Also at different times and different scenarios we might want to adjust within our window to optimise... I for one am going to try an incremental raise tonight on the trainer to see how it feels by 5mm... And go from there.
great video. thank you Simon.
Great vid coach. At 62 I am having to rethink my whole approach to position on my new Domane bike. I have never really understood all the variables that influence knee pain and kinda just pedalled on. I’m going to leave this to a pro bike fitter this time!
Omg this was so insightful and helpful, i honestly don’t believe there’s such a perfect or ultimate position, since every time you go out for a ride your riding condition changes even your attitude, one day you feel like a Tour de France rider and some days you’re not feeling it or you just can find the power no matter what you do, however I really think there’s a happy medium for everyone, you just gotta find it and like Phil said…Adapt…I believe I found my happy medium ones I finally made the decision to get a bike fit and do the best I can with the best that they could fit me with…I did find out I need performance shoe inserts Thank you Si for an awesome video
Very insightful. Thanks GCN!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for this excellent video.
This is a great video!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
Very insightful,I've seen Phil on Katie Kookaburra'a channel,always on point,... would be interesting to see a performance difference before and after a fit,with maybe the lady who rode a super bike for the first time with Manon last year,she was great ,thanks for all you do!
Crank length - ridden 175mm since year dot, well 1996, but based on this, will look at a shorter length for my next gravel bike build and marginal adjustments elsewhere. Mindbockling..
Great video, Si
Had a more involved(video with angles etc)bike fit a few months or more ago. Been riding road( came from MTB) since 2012. My Initial bike fit was the usual plumb line from knee to pedal axle type. Had the norm big drop from seat to handlebar, as per pro riders. But of course, I'm not, and never will be a pro rider. But it looked the same as most of my riding mates adopted position. As a 72 year old, I was looking to limit any injuries etc. that I could be building up, as I advanced in age. And also to get rid of a few minor aches that I used to get on 100 mile sportives. My best average speed on a 100 miler was 18.4mph over 101 miles, in 2017, as a 68 year old. I was more than happy with that. During the bike fit, amongst a few other adjustments, the seat was lowered. 'this is too low' I thought. But after while, it felt more comfortable, saddle felt better, and those little aches and niggles dissapeared. Winner. Who cares about looking 'more pro', to other cyclists. I loved riding my bike before, even with the aches & niggles, now I love it even more without the aches & niggles. Great video, by the way.
Great video. Maybe a nice follow up would be a video for people practicing various disciplines, like road and mtb, gravel, to go through the adaptations to consider, like frame measures and geometry, and crank length for instance. I am sure you guys have enough experience with that.
This would be interesting to be 'fit' for a road bike, then what would need to be done to a normal cyclist (normal proportions) for a gravel bike, mountain bike, etc.
Excellent Video. Thanks!
I've been riding for 30 years and only had a bike fit recently as I was comfortable in my setup which I have used for the last 25 years. However it was a bit of an eureka moment, in that although the changes needed to my setup were only minor, it instantly resulted in more comfort, easier and smoother pedalling action which translated into less stress on my muscles. Agree it's not for everyone though so I wouldn't say it's a must, and I also can't say with hindsight whether my original setup was actually fine, but as I got older it needed some tweaking, but I persevered with my original setup.
Yes, I have been fitted by a pro. But as I get older I can see the need for changes. For a long time I rode 175mm cranks (long legs and feet). Now I need to go shorter, and I can't bend over and reach as far on the bars. Part of this is age and part is riding less than I used to. This piece has encouraged me to re-examine my position and make some adjustments.
I got a Retul fit last year. New bike and I felt all kinds of cramped. It has dome wonders for my position on the bike. As to a perfect fit, I am not sure there is one. There might be one, but flats vs climbing vs downhill often have you in a different position. When I got my fit done we talked about the window idea, and he put me at the extreme end of it and we adjusted until I felt comfortable within it.
My comfortable saddle position is in the extreme forward position with forward offset seatpost. My pedaling technique pushes me backwards on the saddle so I have to set the saddle forward and also tilted down. The more open hip angle is also nice for my back and power. The setup doesn't give me problems with hand pressure at all. Some riders will have problems with the setup and probably depends on the back posture and pedaling technique.
I thought this would be silly. Half an hour later I forgot what happened, that was awesome!
Great video. Where I think bike fit can be really useful for us mere mortals, is in defining the difference between ‘height’ of a person and ‘height of the upper body’ + ‘leg length’ of that same person, the two definitely not being the same. I’m 5’8” and if we left it at that, people would assume I should be riding a frame height of x, (which will then usually come with a standard top tube length), and using a saddle height of y. However, (and I didn’t know this until I joined the army and had to have certain uniforms tailored for me), I’ve got an upper body equivalent to someone who’s between 5’10” and 6’, so ergo my leg length equates to someone who is 5’6” or even 5’4”. This would massively change the in-shop ‘guesstimated’ choice of frame size, of saddle height and of saddle fore/aft position. I’ve adjusted everything as best I can DIY. I’m comfortable (which at 50, and living in the Alps with lots of long long climbs) is more important to me than aero, or speed etc. But as body parts lose flexibility and after a foot op, I think I’m going to invest in a bikefit, or be absolutely sure of where I should be positioned on my bike. I just hope the advice isn’t to buy a new frame because I absolutely love my bike 😂
I would be Interessted to see Si (awesome presenter!) talking with an bike fitter and physiotherapist about problems in the neck like slipped disk. I’ve got one and it’s really hard to watch gcn with that problem 😅 Anyway, happy new year
I use the heel method. I ride three bikes between my road, gravel and fat bike and each bike has a different pedal and each different shoe I wear has a different stack height. By going with the heel method I think I have basically the same knee angle on all three. So I do believe there's a proper window to fall within.
Si’s ankles, yet again, are the star of the show 😊
100%, i'd made my first Retul bf in 2013-2014 in Italy with some enthusiastic guys who hade been making it for themselves and pros and juniors - it was also amazing when we moved saddle forward and up. Especially it made my climbing so smooth like stepping on the stairs. Yes the opposite to quads muscles need to be trained more but the position and force distribution is great. Now I'm trying to replicate my bf on every bike (MTB, gravel and new road ones) and it works great. I tried to redo BF with different master and we've got a different part of the window (far backward and lower) and I don't liked it and returned to previous one... Also using powermeter to compare your output power against exact HR (or the opposite - equal power and diff. HR) to check the effectiveness)
The Lemond method is a good starting point. Then 6 weeks at 250-300km and take multi tool for adjustments.
Very interesting video Si
Cool 👍 I learnt a new word too "anklling", brilliant.
Great video thank you very much, sir's 😊👍
Just when I thought my saddle height was perfect, this video came by. Well, time to fiddle with my saddle height again.
We hope this helps! Don't forget, going in person to a bike fitter is always a good choice if you're struggling to get the right setup.
I've always found Si' ankle work beautiful, glad to see scientific proof!
My golden principle is to know saddle height above pedal (on seat tube line). For me, that's 876mm (34½"), and this is the figure I use on every bike I own regardless of crank length. From what I heard in the video, maybe I'm fortunate to have enough hip flexibility (despite my age, not because of it) to accommodate cranks ranging from 165mm to 175mm.
High quality content 👌
Thanks!
Very well done, ty. I'm 5'8" with 31" inseam, I have 3 racing bikes 50 cm , 51 cm, and 54cm. My reach is short. I put the seat forward as much as possible. My seat high very high. My leg is stretch all the way in the down, I want that power. If I come to a stop I have to get off seat. I don't mind because I like the power. I'm 57 years old, don't drive anymore, bike 20 minutes to work. And bike to do everything. I love it.
Would be interested to see how your times differ before and after the change, that would be the last test for an objective decision to keep new set up or go back to old set up.
I got a bike fit when I bought my first road bike a couple of years ago. About 18 months later, I went for another bike fit on the same bike - the result was my seat post was raised 35mm and my saddle moved back about 20mm. Bike fits aren't always perfect and bike fitters are all different. It's important to try and get a good one though. Try and do some research into the fitter and look at their testimonials. I would also recommend speaking to your local bike store to see if they have any recommendations or fellow cyclists. Unfortunately Phil Burt isn't available to those of us outside the UK.😂
Brilliant video
Spot on!
It would be interesting to know how much pressure is inputted on the pedal at different stages of the stroke.
It’s been said by many others, but here is another comment asking for a new cyclist(not an ex-pro or a 5w/kg Ollie) going through this. It would be interesting to see how their body changes, or doesn’t, as you get their fit correct.
Phil is so good!
Had a “professional fit”. I had been riding for years, >100,000 miles. Got a new bike after several years of not riding. Set up the position by feel. The “professional fitter” did not change any of my setup by more than 10 mm. Seemed not very significant.
Great video👍 If you move your cleats further back it could allow you to raise your saddle a little up and open your hip up. Just a thoght😊
The perfect saddle position is where your fitter says it should be. The demonstration seen here is a person that's grown accustomed to a specific position over decades of riding. Of course changing your position is going to feel weird in that situation, even the optimal position will feel weird after riding that way for so long. Changes on the bike take time, but the main thing is comfort. You should be fine so long as your position isn't creating any issues with comfort or causing injury. Edit - Just wanted to add that many world renowned bike fitters, such as Neill Stanbury, are dropping the fancy computer tools all together and fitting riders based on years of experience with just seeing people on bikes. This video is an excellent demonstration of the reason why. There is a point where the saddle is low enough to have a controlled stroke of the crank without any chopping, particularly at the bottom of the stroke. In theory, you want the saddle height to be as high as possible while maintaining the smooth controlled stroke pattern.
Very good.thank you
I change my saddle position regularly depending on the footwear and even the biking shammy thickness.
Saddle height and bikefit in general is a compromise, so to consider it a window is right. I know that with my current frame geometry I sit deep aero and lean too much on the front, although I have a 60 mm short stem, and it comes with numb hands from time to time. But it feels good in terms of pedaling and putting out power. I never had any injuries.
I end up resetting my seats often . It does make a big difference.
i have my bike fit last year using Idmatch bikelab.. according to the assessment of the bike fitter my saddle height should be around 67,8cm.. i tried riding with it but i never get used to it coz it felt very high.. dropped it by 1 cm and it became very comfortable :)..
I have a touring bike for outside the city, and a 1966 foldable 24 inch steel bike with short crancks for the shorter trips in the city. On this city bike I get to most places I need to go throuhghout the week. I put the saddle on my city-bike about an inch down, to see what it does to my legs. So my shorter trips I ride with a lower saddle with two gears with bent knees. I have the impression that this way my quads are getting stronger because they are doing work in different positions. I have started doing this because I think this helps with Ice Skating. I allso feel stronger on my touring bike when riding uphill. More torque in motorists words.
Si, one thing you dropped from your summary was the consideration for physiological changes/compromises that some people (like me) have to deal with that changes the window. I personally have had 12 spinal surgeries (sports injuries) and lost me lower left leg (bad doctor). Obviously my back and neck don't flex normally and wearing a prosthetic leg have great impact. Fortunately for me, my bike shop worked hard to get me to where I could ride (shorter cranks, taller stem and stem angle) and I have made many adjustments over this past year as my comfort improved. I am using the Wahoo training programs and a Kickr for my indoor training and Garmin for outdoor. Tracking performance metrics as well as perceived comfort have helped me find the fit that works.
cool story bro
Getting a Mountain Bike was revelatory. With the drop post. Now I adjust my height according to my needs. I now realize I don’t have one optimal height, I have several according to conditions. I have a slightly short left leg, and so I can optimize for all needs. Also, since it is an eMTB, I can crank assist in low rpm settings taking a long of stress off the knees. I wish all bikes had drop seats.
For most casual riders just to get near the ideal position is enough. I usually do the "extended leg" type of adjustment for beginners
That method definitely helps get a good idea of the right height!
So interesting, Sy, using the Lemond method looks great, but old fashioned. Kind of like he's ready to grind. A big difference today when you haven't been on a bike for years is wheel diameter, you're so far from the ground now (back in the day you were taught you needed to be able to put your feet flat on the ground, on my modern bikes I can just touch a tiptoe). I wonder if bike geometry changes anything. Also, road racers are sprinters, they pull, for cross you are more endurance, so push. Interesting with what Sy was saying about what kind of cycling he was doing. I do a lot of endurance (and did that pro, not cycling, something different) and I never feel I can can get far enough back on a modern bike to push enough. Basically why we have drop posts on mountain bikes to be able to push. Love this segment. Really interesting. And how good is Sy? He even has cute ankles.
Wheel diameter shouldn't make any difference to how far off the ground you are - your bike geometry should accommodate them and preserve the bottom bracket height, which is the significant measure in this case.
I had a bike fit and the fitter measured that I had very tight hamstrings. Much less than the 75 degrees that Si has. My saddle height had originally been set based on a cyclist with normal hamstring flexibility. The bike fitter lowered my saddle height and that has resulted in less discomfort.
I think there probably is a 'perfect' fit for a person at a particular time, but it depends on a whole lot of variables including their fitness, flexibility, how and what they ride, etc. Your fit, therefore, would be different for a pro vs an amateur, and for road vs mountain vs time trial or track. And it would change over time as your fitness and flexibility change. So the window makes sense. Perhaps the real answer is that you need to play with your setup from time to time making small adjustments to improve a relevant aspect (power vs comfort, for example) and ride it for a week or two to see if it has the desired effect. Up and forward if you want to be more Aero, try a shorter crank if you can, etc. I think actually I might try that last one as I'm a tall rider (almost as tall as Connor) who's used 175mm cranks my whole cycling life and what Phil said there at the end was intriguing.
I think it is easier to sense when your saddle is getting too high rather than a bit too low. I’ve always used the heel on pedal method to get close then gradually raise it till it starts feeling too high. Then lower it till it no longer feels too high. If you can’t drop your ankles a little while pedaling it’s probably too high.
Moving cleats, dropped heel or angled heel as well as Q factor will also interact with saddle height (and fore after position of saddle). Leg discrepancy aswell (shims needed). All major factors of pain.
Si's face as Phil kept mentioning his ankles 🤣🤣 Si knew he was going to get ripped straight away