Do the Newly Discovered Saudi Arabian Gold Plates Support the Book of Mormon?
2024 ж. 6 Сәу.
32 038 Рет қаралды
Learn more about popuar hoaxes here:
knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/why-should-latter-day-saints-beware-fraudulent-artifacts
Learn more about popuar hoaxes here:
knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/why-should-latter-day-saints-beware-fraudulent-artifacts
We have no proof one way or the other. Personally I don't need evidence to believe in the Book of Mormon.
We don't have proof, but there are numerous red flags:
Testimonies do not from actual proof. They come by way of the Holy Ghost. Those who need proof will never be satisfied. They will just want more proof.
A red flag to me means you either have not read the book of Mormon or you've not prayed about the book of Mormon
Yes, we do have proof. The data all over the plate smacks of a forgery.
Reading the Book of Mormon shows you the truth of its authenticity. Unless you read it looking for grammatical errors you will walk away knowing it's true. God bless!
All the issues I had with the interview video: The people that are talking about it: - claim secret meetings were arranged to take then to multiple secret locations by Mercedes in Saudi Arabia - that they were shown photos of a cave full of gold treasure in an undisclosed location - the plates were removed from this treasure cave by another party - that they were presented with gold-gold plates from a bag in paleo-Hebrew with the implication only they can translate it in a separate portion of the video, the two gentlemen used baby wipes to clean the plates... - that they were also shown lead codices in the bag - that only they have been translating the golden plates, claiming it is the story of the journey of a pre-Christ Jewish tribe in Saudi Arabia - one of the people is a professor/archaeologist with the last name of Jones - several jokes were made that he should change his first name legally to Indiana - the people doing the 'research' are selling classes worth college credit somewhere - only extremely shallow, carefully curated questions are asked in the discussion that have no substance - donations were solicited multiple times during the interview - most of the photos are all conveniently out of focus "someone didn't realize my camera needed to be focussed and just took snapshots" - other images of an apparently lead document are stills taken from video that's "kinda shaky and all that" which are effectively unintelligible with allegedly 12 seals from 12 tribes. This document was never actually shown to them in person
throurough observations!
It seems to me that being too quick to accept these as authentic is just as bad as being too quick to dismiss them as fakes. Without good inquiry and pure scientific curiosity one is very prone towards confirmation bias.
I think this is wise counsel. Margaret Barker is a great scholar who is studying the lead books from Jordan (I think) and has made some interesting discovieries about them. I think that this could be authentic and I'd like to wait to see before dismissing it.
Yep! Without evidence, people will tend to believe what they want to believe!
@@polomaster720 People believe whatever they want to believe regardless of evidence, for or against.
@@kz6fittycent Of course, it goes both ways. At that point, whims reign supreme, not logic or evidence.
Thank you! I believe this video is proof that this channel has integrity, and does their research, making sure to only present good data, rather than any data that promotes their goals. I love this channel so much, I learn so much from it, and I'm so grateful it's a trustworthy source of information! So good!
Thanks for the calm analysis instead of breathless hyperventilation and speculation.
If you think these are real, prepare yourself for another kinder-hook plates kind of disappointment.
My favorite take is Dave Butler's observation that, real or fake, the fact that they are using the script from 1 Nephi to sell this to evangelicals means we win either way.
Though Dave butlers take is fun, on this one I feel he clearly jumped the gun and took several with him without really knowing all of the known fakes already out there that are similar. For me personally this is a L for Dave if they are fake. I love the stick of Joseph brothers but they are young and naive and it shows sometimes.
@@TheJanesaw Dave Butler made it clear he was indifferent. In the first video, I think it was more that they were excited about the possibility. The point he was also making was that much of the symbolism that was being portrayed in the golden book, is very similar to what will be discussed in his upcoming book as well.
I was excited. It doesn’t deepen my testimony but I know there are those who need “hard evidence “ and my soul yerns for them to be able to find the joy in the Gospel and have it in their lives. Wishful thinking I guess alas.
I am skeptical but I always take a wait and see approach. I will wait and see if this ever gets presented to the world at large for review and not this or any other channel of opinions.
This story kind of reminds me of the Kinderhook plates. Maybe what they need to do is some metallurgy testing and see if they are ancient or modern metal plates.
My first thought is why would the author/ maker waste space on precious gold sheets?? There is tons of blank space and huge cartouches. Authentic antique metal books that have been discoverd use of every millimeter of space on the plate.
They could have had them for when they simply had something to write? I don’t imagine they could make gold plates anywhere they were especially when traveling for long periods of time so they had several for when they simply had something inspired to write down. Just a thought.
They don't actually have every spot covered in other gold sheet antiquities, and embossing on gold sheet was popular with the Etruscan trade as early as 100 years before Lehi, the Isrealites and Egyptians both had creative gold work, and there were many metallurgists in different countries around there that were creative with precious metal crafting. I've collected 100's of photos of Etruscan jewelry findings from around 700BC, and the work can be very meticulous, with the embossing being even far more detailed than this at times, but far less detailed than this as well. Lehi took a long eight years or so, to travel down to what is Oman now, possibly where the city Salalah is now. In my view, they had plenty of time to make plates, especially since prophets are commanded to write. The Lord would have directed them. But it could also be that the family who came along were not commanded to leave their own gold and valuables behind. Not everyone on that journey had the same level of commitment to the Lords purposes and so creating this kind of thing for say, a wife as a gift, wouldn't be out of the question as far as I can see.
You’re absolutely right sister. There could be 1 million of these gold books and I would not care. The book of Mormon, testifies of itself. that it comes from our savior Jesus Christ.
Deceptions will increase...
This is true, too, and we shouldn't allow this to measure our testimonies.
I thought the characters looked too crude to be authentic. I did wonder what the going price was for a set of gold plates!
One can have a strong testimony of the Book of Mormon AND be excited about the possiblities of new records being found. I prefer to be wait and see.
Probably fake they look too clean !???
gold doesn't tarnish.. There is a set of gold plates in a book form from 600 BCE which are deemed to be authentic. They are found in the Museum in Sophi Bulgaria. Bound together much like the Book of Mormon, with a language which is no longer understood. They look very clean as well, but definitely authentic.
Let’s check back on this video in 200 years
... or 200 days.
Thank You ❤
I agree that this is most likely fake
I agree. And no expert would handle something that ancient and valuable with their bare hands so that makes me suspicious too.
most likely?...based on what?
@@pamsbirding ...My uncle had numerous special church artifacts, two large vaults, and did have white gloves for us when holding certain things. But with pure gold, gloves are not necessary, as it doesn't mar or tarnish due to skin oils, oxygen or acids.
What is the "excellant" evidence for the BOM?????? Has anyone ever found anything to prove the BOM history?
Bless you for sharing your knowledge ❣️👏👍😊
Took less than five seconds to recognize it’s fake and I’m not an archaeologist. It’s just silly looking. Kind of like the BOA.
The first thing to remember is will it pass the Mark Hoffman test. That hasn't even been done yet.
Thank you it seems to good to be true 😊
Another fantastic video! thank you
No witnesses. God always established truth by witnesses.
nice breakdown Jasmin!
Ah, rats. It looked so exciting! :-) Thank you for your scholarship and analysis.
Congratulations on your cautious approche to this (and other) purported new finding(s). If intellectual evidence were based on less than truth, it would be so harmful in the hands of the Church adversaries and an insult to those who would have taken for true. We members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS want to live in the true light. Again, thank you for being trustworthy.
This has already happened--we seemingly have many a "Winchester-ite" among us... and they are immoveable, yet Joseph said of him (Bro. Winchester, a tempted one), "He will do much harm to to Church", and that both has happened and still does. Tradition has a mightier hold than addiction, so we need discernment. And many think they have it, but what I'm seeing is just a lot of strong traditions rooted deeply. My mother always said that the bottom line is to follow the prophet, and so I believe Joseph's word then is the pivotal point, not conjecture and rational. Just his word. Today, our current prophet and what he says should be our primary concern. Since these plates really shouldn't change one's true testimony (because a true testimony is a witness from the Spirit), I can see him concentrating on gathering Israel, and on keeping the Spirit with us. They do hold artifacts, but they are kept for a different purpose than as proof. The witness of the Spirit is the proof that counts. These plates are neat, but their purpose feels mostly decorative, which is okay, it would fit tradition of the whole region, as metallergists then did use sheet gold (while they often embossed in sculptured designs of plants, people and animals) with thin, extruded wire gold and granualation (gold beads), and they soldered these gold parts into one project or piece. So they were proficient at working gold creatively, especially the Etruscans from around 700BC. There are photos of Etruscan goldwork all over the internet.
So thankful for this video. People, bless their hearts are prone to excitement. I get it. Evidence is cool. It won’t get us a temple recommend or bring us closer to Christ.
So, at this stage, what would you need to know about them that has either been proposed by those who've come up with them, or the critical thinking rebuttal offered here? I don't care for BoM central, however this vid is well done and reasonable at this juncture.
Ecited at first. Then immediately cautious. Then videos appeared that said it was sus. Then this clentched it for me. Hopefully we helped that other Christian group avoid getting scammed. Whew! But yeah... people get excited but be careful about jumping on confirmation bias... it's a trap sometimes to be validated by sources that aren't verified.
There was a silver scroll found in the 1960s/70s with an inscription from the book of Numbers around Jerusalem dating back to 600 BC. Maybe talk about that?
Neal Rappleye talks about the Ketef Hinnom inscriptions in his FAIR presentation last September.
Heh..when Joseph pulled the plates from the hill there was no controlled "dig"".. going on..
What did President Nelson said about the last days before the Second Coming?
Even if the real gold plates were to be discovered it would "prove" nothing. We cannot by pass Heavenly Father plan of personal revelation by The Holy Ghost of the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon. Allan McInyre (Scotland)
I knew it was fake. Truth tastes like truth. This artifact tastes an awful lot like sensationalism.
That's what the Pharisees said, too. It could be fake, but this restoration itself is still seen as too good to be true by many.
Did joseph smith ever say his plates looked dirty or old?
Some of the witnesses said they had a greenish tin to them, suggesting the plates were a gold copper alloy. I have never read were any of the witnesses said they were particularly dirty.
@@caseykaelin9430 thank you where is that reference olease
No, but there are a couple of witnesses that witnessed a very sight hint of green which, as someone who knows about gold alloys, means thry had to be less than 9K, below the US standard of 10K for jewelry sales. These appear to be a high karat, and so look brilliant. Pure gold and high karat alloys retain their brillance. But for scriptural record purposes, only enough gold to preven a level of damaging tarnish was needed. That doesn't mean that they didn't make some sheets out of pure gold for extra curricular enjoyment. I can especially see Laman and Lemual's wives enjoying them, but then, they would not have left them behind. But I haven't watched the full videos on these. I guess they could have been part of a burial? Who knows, but sheet gold articles were a traditional thing during that era for more afluent people, especially in jewelry and for the use of diadems.
@@tinacarvalhoBodyandHealth ..one of them was one of the women. That's written in journals, I think. I believe Hugh Nibley and other professors know of those references. I was watching a video of Truman Madson mentioning it, I think.
@@tinacarvalhoBodyandHealth I believe I read it in a book by Anderson called The Three Witnesses.
0:55 - The plates were not found in a controlled archaeological dig, so their origins and context are unknown 1:49 - There is a thriving trade in fake Middle Eastern antiquities, providing motive for forgery 2:29 - The style, embossing, and motifs on the plates appear modern and similar to known forgeries 3:01 - The menorah design seems copied from the iconic Arch of Titus depiction 3:37 - The Hebrew inscriptions are amateurish gibberish mixing scripts, some anachronistically modern 4:22 - The shape, edges, and binding ring of the plates suggest machine fabrication 4:40 - The plates resemble other fraudulent Jordanian artifacts, including controversial lead codices 5:15 - There is impressive evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, but this item has major red flags 5:43 - Promoting fake artifacts as evidence can undermine the solid evidence supporting the Book of Mormon
Thank you!
Although a forgery, they're 100 percent more real than the mythical golden plates.
Disappointing!
Don't speak too soon! Haha.
Stick of Jospeh KZhead Channel also has two videos about this definitely worth checking out
The evidences of the Book of Mormon (and there are many) only strengthen people who already believe. The doubters will not suddenly come around to change their opinions. If a person really is earnestly seeking the truth, he/she will know the truth of the Book of Mormon. It's a treasure trove of the doctrines of Christ.
I mean it wouldn't make sense considering the angel Moroni took the plates
I get what you mean about THIS current artifact wasn’t pulled out of a recognized archaeological dig, but I had to smile, cause neither was the Book of Mormon gold plates pulled out of a “recognized” archeological site. But these do look like an intended hoax.
These are not the plates that the book of Mormon talked about !!!
No, but I think people know that, I think these are just of interest in general. Embossed gold sheet-work was not uncommon then--it was the main way to do certain diadems and jewelry by the 700BC Etruscans and it spread from there. There are many photo I put on Pinterest showing Etruscan jewelry, etc. and bound metal books have been found all around the world, yet mostly a variety of metals, including lead. So this is interesting to me that these are gold where we have the story of gold being worked to make plates for scribing scripture records. And they wouldn't have to be the same alloy as for the scripture records if these were made for say, a spousal gift. Who knows. But this kind of work, the sheet and the embossing, the Etruscans had already made popular in certain areas starting 100 years earlier (700BC) in lower Europe and the Middle East. Just search "Etruscan jewelry 700BC, images". It's fun to see how amazing the artists were back then, just as talented as today, maybe moreso when it comes to some highly emboss-sculptured sheet gold pieces.
I want to wait for more facts to come out. It's still exciting.
So quick to discredit it but yet you belueve in the book of mormon which you have never seen.? Wow
Excellent point!
The proof I have of The Book of Mormon comes from the only source of critical truth.
First off, Is it real gold? Are the forgeries real gold?
I'm sure thry are testing them with assay-ists and poet precious metal experts.
I really enjoy this channel, but this was my least favorite video. You need to talk to David Butler. He knows what all of the imagery and "gibberish" is about. That's not to say the book is real, but that's also not to say it's fake, either.
Are you talking about David Butler from Don't Miss This? Did he put content on this?
@@lmw1960 Oh. No, I'm talking about David Butler who has been on the Stick of Joseph channel.
Agreed, I loved his commentary on Stick of Joseph.
Go see it for your self. Let see 😅😅😅
In any case much work of much gold all just brings people to know of The real book of Mormon. Forward as One
Haters will hate.
The thing about controlled archeological digs is their biases. Their paradigm is actually more harmful for outside of the box finds, which BOM things are.
While that can be true, finding an artifact under controlled conditions is critical to establishing the item's provenance -- it (almost always) eliminates questions about whether an artifact is authentic. Whether the article itself fits into our theories about ancient people is another debate altogether. But, yes, scientists should NOT dismiss an artifact as a fake simply because it would contradict or disprove their own theories if it was deemed authentic. That's contrary to the scientific method.
@@markhenshaw2151 ...And then there's the shady Smithsonian and their cohorts, haha. So... sometimes you've just got a rock and a hard place, because I know the Smithsonian straight-up lies where convenient--there's a good-ol'-boy club they rule over, too, and some have reported that if they don't conform, they have received threats.
@markhenshaw2151 great point 👍
If it’s Smithsonian; they are known for taking items away that doesn’t fit their narrative 😊.
such as?
True!
@@johnczinczoll6545 ...The leveling of the Hanukah earth work, among many other evidences trustingly turned into them in their earliest days, including extra tall skeletons, which they now swear never existed, and yet two former employees verified that they were definitely there and archived. You cannot trust the Smithson on certain things. A CD was recorded with the truth and the Smithsonian made them erase those testimonies of the former employees. Some witnesses of these events came from old timers still alive who recorded their stories of how after they turned in artifacts, in one case, a giant skeleton found in the south west where a number have been found, and they claimed they didn't know what he was talking about and denied knowing anything about it, saying, "Giants don't exist." My neighbor had a similar thing happen when she had archeologists come and examine a mijnd on her property down the road. They told her after coming and examining it that ut was not a native American mound, but upon leaving, was told that the property owners were not allowed to dig more than 12" deep anywhere on her property which is at least 10 acres fir farmland on route 58 in MD judt before the PA border. For 20 years, it has been perfectly round seeing it from google earth, but this last google shot, they have warped it some. I drive past it regularly, and to me, I feels like it is truly a burial mound. Now these people can't even built anything with sufficient footings, let alone a basement. I learned all of this firsthand when I talked to her on her front porch. The Smithsonianl is not upright. If you want to go to the Smithsonian museums, skip the natural history museum.
if it’s a fake, it’s faking something that is real. so it is still evidence, is it not?
Definitely seem fake but its interesting that some evangelicals and Jews believe it is real...
Also, I feel like this is very connected to LDS/BoM narratives, so being found right before General Conference makes me pretty suspicions.
The Church wouldn't be behind that if fake. If real, the timing wouldn't matter either way.
@@Gasp7000 lol not the church man. I'm saying it's smart to come out with something like this around general conference. The amount of searches and media around church related topics spikes at this time each year. If you were going to roll out an lds "mormon" targeted artifact the best time would be around conference.
Mark Hoffman.
He was a weird case.
Are you Brett Cooper's mum?
I don’t think it should be dismissed because it wasn’t found in a controlled dig. I’d like to hear an opposing opinion from another credible source before I can make a good decision as to their authenticity or not.
I agree we shouldn't be so quick to accept but we shouldn't be too quick to dismiss either.
Stick of Joseph
Interesting. Thanks for the opinion.
If we don't hear about it in conference this weekend it's probably fake. It's interesting.
They would never verify it that soon, so it would be inappropriate and premature for them to mention it at conference at all. They do have artifacts they have never mentioned, and there is reason for that in one particular case I know of, but I won't mention it here.
I don't trust some real archaeologists, even if it was at a so-called controlled dig. Let time expire and we all will see.
the circular seals and the characters match the descriptions that prof. Anton gave off what harris showed him. the book of mormon itself was not discovered in a controlled archaeological dig. that was pretty similar to anton’s objection.
You need to let the professionals figure it out, there's no possible way anyone could know after one week, so don't jump on the fake bandwagon.
Dismissing them as fake without knowing anything about them is very concerning. Needless to say, it changes my thoughts about Scripture Central’s motives as an organization.
So, at this stage, what would you need to know about them that has either been proposed by those who've come up with them, or the critical thinking rebuttal offered here? I don't care for BoM central, however this vid is well done and reasonable at this juncture.
Did you watch the same video? "Without knowing anything about them"... i mean it was 7 minutes of knowing about them in comparison to other artifacts, fonts, artistic style, historical context. Nearly everything about them was analyzed. I do not understand why your comment exists.
Weird how other experts say it seems to be real. I guess we will find out in time.
There was that type of goldwork among the 700BC Etruscans and others in that whole region, so it wouldn't be a surprise if that expetise was within Lehi's group.
Right from the get-go. Dead Sea Scrolls. Nat Hammadi Library Yes, even the Book of Mormon NOT from controlled, scientifically monitored archeological digs.
Carful…. Or you’ll sound like those who called Joseph smith fake. I think everyone should simply ask God what part these play in the last days. Period.
God expects us to use our intellectual faculties.
@@tdijon7 ...But all things with the Spirit, the only guarantor of truth.
what it angels forged it as cry for help?
When I watched the video that presented the plates, what i got out of it was the plates were too early to be the time of Lehi. The only thing it was proof of to me was that plates of records were made. But one question that was never addressed was about the embossing. How was that done? The Book of Mormon was engraved. How was something embossed back then? As Latter-day Saints, we need to be careful not to be deceived. We need to have the foundation of our testimonies built upon the rock of our Redeemer. If our foundation is built on anything else, great will be the fall of it.
You flat out called the other guys bad Mormons for wanting to believe in potential BoM evidence 😂 that’s pretty bold of you. One could say that’s an un Christlike thing to do 👀
I'm not a big fan of ad hominem arguments. Much more interested in the merit arguments.
I think sketchy provenance is a good reason to give pause, but it doesn’t warrant dismissing the item completely. Definitely need more info.
Something legit got dismissed that way, and now the artifacts are safely under Church care, no announcements, and there shouldn't be, in every case. This one had an angelic charge to protect them, and they are. But the archeological professors involved labeled them fake due to misinformation. Inadvertantly, they ended up "protected" after all, due to their error. Mission accomplished.
Refutation No 1: they recently found a Roman-era 24K gold crown In a box In England-authentic
Why is that a refutation? Wouldn't that be a supporting validation? The Etruscans did make gold jewelry, crowns and diadems of sheet gold with soldered wire and gold granulation, and much of their work included highly artistic freehand embossing, 700BC and on.
The Book of Mormon is its own proof, it is not on trial The people of the world is on trial To what they will do with this,sacred scripture...Pres Ezra Taft Benson
If a traveling mummy salesman can conincidentally produce the Book of Abraham, why would the mormon chuch doubt this gold book?
So, how am I supposed to trust Joseph Smith’s plates? Was his plates fake too? 😮
Where is the evidence for the Book of Mormon? Oh wait, there is none 😮
We believe the Lord will let you know if it's true if you ask him through consistent prayer and reading the book. But the Book of Mormon plates do have lots of witnesses and consistent accounts, as we explain in this video here: kzhead.info/sun/gNFmcbyChYqfdXA/bejne.htmlfeature=shared
@@scripturecentralofficial thank you, I am actually a LDS for almost 2 years, it just seems strange that you would shoot down these plates but believe in Joseph Smiths plates!
@@scripturecentralofficial so these plates have no witnesses? What makes them fake? How sure are you they are fake? Why would they forge these plates and then claim they dug them up? Like the kinderhook plates and the James Strang plates?
Moroni 10 :4-5 Tells us how we can know the truth of all things.
I personally feel that profound undeniable evidence isn't part of Heavenly Father's plan. It would rob people of their agency. If you want to know if God exists, and if the Atonement of Jesus Christ is real, sincerely seek Him through prayer and put your problems His altar.
🤔 By your reasoning, the Book of Mormon's golden plates are also a hoax.
Arch of Titus menora only has two steps. This has three. SLOPPY
Hmmm, provenance has little to do with authenticity.
The really sad thing is that every Mormon is gleeful when someone brings to attention that which could show proof of their claims but when truth comes out and they’re fake… I don’t need proof for my testimony of the b of m to be real. You’re fooling yourselves and holding on to hope in a Jesus that can’t save you.
Every mormon ?? Uh-uh.
Not disagreeing that it is probably fake, but I don't think you should make the argument that because it was not found in a controlled archeological dig that we should be suspicious. The book of Mormon was not found that way for a reason. If it had been then it would have been hid from the world.
Atbash cypher is the gibberish you reference SLOPPY AND UNPROFESSIONAL to miss that. See Jeremiah 25:26. When you promote yourself as an expert and you’re ignorant, you are doing a worse disservice.
Mormons probably have the gold plates in J Utah. 50th anniversary of Jesus Christ Superstar 2024. Mormon church knows.
No such thing as the Mormon church. If there were what part of the Mormon church should know about this?
Another fantastic video! thank you!