TO WRITERS, FROM READERS: FEMALE CHARACTERS
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the coolest thing about mulan is that she does have to act like a man HOWEVER in the climax her fellow soldiers have to dress up and pretend to be women in turn for the plan to work. the moment when they show the gang in their courtesan disguises, about to scale a wall using the method mulan came up with during the training montage, as "be a man" is playing in the background is one of my favorite moments in the movie (and also probably in cinema history) bc it's such a perfect payoff both narratively and thematically. just ties the gender related themes of the movie together so well. gosh i love mulan😭
The damsel in distress can work as long as you give the damsel some character, like giving her a personality. 😂
Yes, I don't like this "hating on tropes" attitude no matter how it is written. You can do any trope you want as long it is different enough somehow.
I absolutely love the Earthsea miniseries. Kristin Kreuk's character Tenar is the sweetest "good-est" character ever. But when she is betrayed and thrown in the dungeon, she stands strong. She's not a fighter. But when they threaten to torture and kill her, she, very clearly scared, lifts her chin, looks the villains right in the eye, and essentially tells them, "Go right ahead. But the information you want will follow me to my grave.". THAT is a strong character. Eventually, the protagonist, Shawn Ashmore's Ged, comes to rescue her and she is extremely grateful and then helps him defeat the villains. Not by suddenly being a badass warrior. But by doing what she can do.
Fr, just don't make being in distress the damsel's only purpose in the story and it works like a clock. We love a good rescue plotline.
I don't remember the movie's name, it was a modern fantasy/comedy where monsters like zombies, werewolves, vampires, etc. lived hidden among humans. And I really liked the twist of the useless damsel in distress. Spoilers: The useless damsel in distress was only pretending to be useless, and was the main villian all along. She was a powerful monster hunter, and allowed herself to be captured so she could absorb the magical mcguffin and gain unparalleled powers.
@vtrwriter Oh come on! Ya can't just leave me hangin like that!
MORE female villains. I grew up absolutely loving Maleficent and the White Witch as some of the coolest characters of all time. That kind of character doesn't seem to exist much anymore. Instead, they are watered down just to be the real victims, and I should actually hate some guy instead? Weird modern villain requirement.
I’m so sick of reading headstrong/stubborn FMCs…. It’s so overused and it’s frustrating to read because they refuse to take advice(usually from Male characters) and ultimately make poor decisions which lead to some avoidable catastrophic event. What’s worse, is that there usually isn’t much character development following their actions, and they will most likely not learn from their stubbornness!! I would personally like to see more FMCs be more reasonable and trusting, overall see more personal growth and relationship building.
But this scenario you wrote is actually IRL reality.
My FMC is headstrong and speaks her mind when goaded but she does suffer a great deal bc of her actions.
Because everyone is brainwashed by feminist propaganda these days. Women aren't supposed to be women anymore.
Because of all the f*minist propaganda going around. Women aren't supposed to behave like women anymore.
I actually like stubborn/headstrong FMCs, but when they refuse to even consider being open to any outside influence from anyone ever no matter what and never learn....I feel like that's diverging beyond just stubborn and/or headstrong and right into full-on bullheaded or even outright pigheadedishness, and I really can't stand that either.
That comment about people not knowing how to write subtle characters changes without losing the core really hit a spot with me
Honestly, people can’t read subtle character stuff, either 😂
One of the best female characters I've read about it a very long time is Yona from the manga Yona of the Dawn. She starts out a spoiled princess, someone who doesn't care much about anything other than her hair and her crush, but she's forced very quickly to grow up and get stronger, and we see her learn so many things, like shoot a bow and arrow and lead an army. She turns into a super strong woman who also recognizes her emotions. She never loses her inner kindness, but instead learns how to turn it into a weapon. She reminds me a lot of Katara from Avatar. Highly recommend Yona of the Dawn!
I agree. At the start of the story Yona was annoying and then her story line growth so well that she became very likable. Specially cause her development feel real for a person and a girl in term of maturity, specific skills, self-confidence, mindset,... and not pure force.
A good example of a quiet healer and a loving daughter would be Sorcha from Juliet Marillier's "Daughter of the Forest." Marillier actually does "soft" women characters incredibly well throughout her body of work, especially with the heroines of "Daughter of the Forest," "Son of the Shadows" (both healers), "Wolfskin" (a priestess), and "Foxmask" (a young woman with a talent for embroidery and the textile arts). I really wish this author were more popular, and I'm glad to hear her get a mention in this video.
I would love to see this for "Male Love interests/Female love interests" cause I feel like they're their own beasts.
I'd love to see more characters who just happen to be female, they do not have to be a love interest, someone who has to prove they rise above their status, someone who is a strong, or anything female. Just a normal character who just is a female and is not defined as "not male"
I find personalities really interesting to explore because they are determined by both experiences and genetics. I find it really fun to see how two people, maybe siblings, are different or similar because of their experiences. I have two characters, brothers, who are both very similar to their mom, but drastically different from each other. All three are intensely loyal, but one brother is really naive and optimistic, whereas the other is cynical and pessimistic. The mom, who has more rounded experiences, is more in between and tries to see the best in people, but understands that not everyone can be trusted. Anyway.. that is MY rant; I like comparing/contrasting similar characters. It's fun.
lol “end game” is the phrase you were looking for when you’re talking about who the character will be with at the end of the story…maybe lol
Yes, “End game” is the correct phrase.
I am a male writer writing a book with 2 female POVs (3 male). I'm trying really hard to write them well an not fall into some of these cliches. This video helped tremendously, thank you so much 🔥🙏
I think some of the stuff we see in contemporary fiction regarding female characters is a pendulum swing from the previous position of women on extreme end to the other extreme side. Also authors should show both* masculine and feminine aspects of their female characters.
My favorite female character is Nausicaä from the Studio Ghibli movie (and more importantly the Manga) Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind. She's is fiercly compassionate and kind towards others, and can also fight for what she believes in and to protect the ones she cares about. The movie is nice but doesn't show her full character as the manga does, i would still recommend watching it though :)
I'm currently reading chapter 5 of Nausicaa and I actually think she's basically written as a perfect person and a martyr rather than an interesting character😅 Having everyone - people, creatures and even mold! - fall head over heels for her (albeit more in sense of a messiah rather than a romantic interest) after a single interaction with her makes me roll my eyes every few pages. And of course, she has the exact superpowers she needs to play her role of a savior and a martyr 🙄
@@natasagajic1061 Yes, she is a messiah type of character, but achieving her goals requires a massive amount of effort and struggle on her part and it doesn't come easy just because she is the savior. And you seriously think you can judge a character after only 5 chapters?
@@19Rena96 After having read about 700 pages (I'm currently mid second book in the 2 big hardback bindups of the series - which _is_ chapter 5 in these editions)? And having watched the anime? And knowing the story in general? I would say yes, at that point you absolutely _can_ judge a character🙂 I'm glad she works for you as a protagonist ☺ but I just don't get the appeal. And yes, about three quarters into the story, I do think that everything comes pretty easily to her (and especially if you compare what other significant characters of her age have gone through - Asbel, Ketcha or Kushana, take your pick), because she has the _exact_ set of skills (and unreasonable, imo, adoration of others) she needs to succeed. She's in trouble? Other characters sacrifice themselves for her. She tries to sacrifice herself for others? The adversary stays their hand. She cannot speak a language? No problem, she has telepathy! Just to name a few instances among many 😅 Again, I'm glad she works for you ✨, but I can't agree that, for my taste at least, she's an interesting female character 🤔
@@natasagajic1061 People love Nausicaä because of her actions and how she treats others, friend AND foe! Just in real life, kindness and compassion is what compels others to like (and follow) you. Everything you just mentioned is a non issue because that's simply how the story goes and doesn't make her a worse character in the slightest? Just out of curiousity. What are some female characters you consider "well written" ?
@@natasagajic1061 If Nausicaä gets everything handed to her, 99% of characters in general get it as well.
Not finished the video yet but shallan is such a great example of the naive character from all angles, with the growth she goes through while keeping the sunny disposition but also the things she’s gone through that maintain her naivety to a degree throughout her personal journey
I think we need more female characters who are genuinely humble and/or tragic. I think of Spiderman who is struggling in his own life, but still sacrifices deeply to serve, normal everyday people. Or Harry Dresden who is extremely hard on himself, and is terrified of what he might turn into, but over and over again he makes difficult choices that cost him deeply because he desperately wants to be someone who will do the right thing, even though he doesn't always know what that means. Too many female characters keep whining about how they 'deserve' more than what life has dealt them, or how unfair society is. Give me more tragic female characters who selflessly sacrifice themselves without getting bitter about it.
I love these long chatty videos😊 And Mulan is still one of my all time favourite movies, in large part because of the reasons you listed.
After filming this, I wanted to rewatch it 😂 Might have to squeeze that in sometime!
A few years ago I read The Sword of Winter by Marta Randall and the FMC (Lyeth) was really interesting. She was a bit "I'm strong which means I beat things up and have no emotion" but it was because she had a lot of issues with trusting people and being vulnerable which was worked on throughout the book. She also accidentally adopts this boy right at the start and she grows to love and care for him without losing her whole personality to become super maternal and soft. I really loved reading her story
The timing of this is perfect! I'm a male who is currently writing female characters and working on making sure they're primarily nuanced human beings. I agreed with most of the points brought up and it's super helpful seeing these points all laid out in one video. :)
After watching this video you should absolutely read the Sevenwaters Triology Juliiete Marillier. It meets so many of the things you said about women of all kinds of personalities, motivations, and all aspects of strength. Not just physical strength. (TW for assault. It's explored so well though, and addresses the complaints in the video)
the descent into madness/evil is exactly what my female main character is going through in the series I am writing. She starts as a hero, has a villain arc, and then has a realizaton and tries her best to climb back to good
Hey can you make a video about fantasy series with female protagonists
I’ve started saying, “we need less strong independent women and more strong competent women” in our stories. Competence is key to me because it’s flexible enough to encompass many attributes without pigeon holing someone into a stereotype. Side note, my author friend, McKenna Rowell, writes some of my favorite female characters. I don’t care much for historical fiction (I prefer science-fiction and fantasy), but she writes excellent characters and stories that I really enjoy reading.
That's what l really like about Ilona Andrews' books - everyone is competent! (Men and women, main characters, side characters)
@@mediabunny4016Is there a standalone that I could give a try?
I agree on the "bad boy" being a twisted protector. I would add - from what I've seen in a lot of my recent reads with this trope, it's somehow more believable that the "bad boy" would do anything to protect an FMC because they are already familiar with crossing a line into morally grey or downright evil. The image of a shining knight inspires more of a rule follower who may hesitate to protect an FMC if it's at the expense of others.
35:33 Reminds me there's this comedy trio where I'm from who in different series portray three brothers going on hilarious adventures. (They also play most of the other characters they meet and it's fantastic🤣) At one point they were time traveling and ended up meeting reverse Robin Hood - his name was Hood Robin and he stole from the poor and gave to the rich. He was in love with the beautiful maiden Maryann, as the story goes, whom he had only seen from a distance and never talked to. She was blindingly beautiful on the outside, and then she smiled. And oh, what a smile. Toothbrush? Who's that?😂 Welp, no wedding bells there. And before the brothers left they suggested he do some rebranding, which is how we ended up with the Robin Hood we know and love🤣
I am learning in my reading journey that expert character work is a skill most writers are just average at best with. It seems only elite writers can master creating complex and nuanced characters that feel real. Most writers create female character that lack balance. For example, most of the modern fan-ro female characters are predictable “not like other girls” badasses who make no mistakes and do everything flawlessly while being superior to other female characters who don’t fight in physical battles. They are strong, brave, and capable but also arrogant and shallow b/c authors are afraid to make them sensitive, nurturing out of fear they will make them seem “weak.” There is nothing weak about being sensitive, nurturing, and empathetic. It’s insulting and makes for a very poorly developed, one dimensional characters.
@KJ-yb2wf It comes from a misguided attempt that if you impart those qualities into a female you rob them of their agency and is sexist. Which is ironic because when you make a female character that has all the abilities and negative traits with little sympathy or meaningful pushback; I argue that is sexist because it's saying these individuals can't exist without these qualities. That they are lesser without them. Looking at you, Rey. You can make a female character competent and capable while still giving them flaws that provide meaningful, significant obstacles. Mizu from Blue Eye Samurai is a really good recent example same with Vy from Arcane. My take on writing a female(or any character) is flesh their backstory out the best you can. Ask questions, lots of them and the right,targeted questions to get what you want, and give them some a serious flaw or shortcomings that make it harder for them to solve problems. If their sex plays a role in who they are,like flirtatious, cool. Just make sure the traits and details have a point. And aren't tapped together.
@@Avarn388I think that by not giving them compassion and empathy they essentially make their female characters into psychopaths. I know someone currently writing who doesn't understand his female MC just isn't relatable because she's literally (and unintentionally) a psychopath. He thinks she's just "strong" though
YES! Holy crow is a thing! That was not a typo. 😉 6:10 “Has a tendency to see something that does well, that’s eye opening, creates empathy, it might make people think, etc., to they say, “THAT MADE MONEY! LET’S TO MORE OF THAT!” so they focus on and look for that one thing, because it made money, and do it over and over again.” THIS! So much THIS! I hate how traditional publishing is only in the biz to make money. I have zero doubt there are piles and piles of manuscripts of wonderful stories that get overlooked and rejected because either the plot, the characters, the genre, the sub-plot…. whatever, isn’t what is making money right. Support Self-Publishers! I know there is a lot of crap from the SP world because some authors aren't spending the time/money on editing, beta readers, peer review, etc., but many of us do. We take pride in our work and want to put the absolute best product out there for folks to enjoy, and most of us self-published because our stories aren't what will make money for the trad publishers. Look us up. You might be surprised!
Thank you for acknowledging that "just like a man" and "just pamper me" can legitimately come from valid or good intentioned places, even we do also need to see my nuance and/or progression away from or beyond just those things now. 🙂 I really don't think shaming these things is the way to actually grow or move beyond them at all in reality. I think looking at them and seeing/understanding/sympathizing/acknowledging where they came from and why and treating it gently[ much like we should do for our flawed/imperfect past/younger selves] for doing the best that it could at a time, in addition to recognizing that it shouldn't just stop there and only there all the time forever, is the only way to really progress. But, I dunno, maybe that's just me or something. 😊💖💖 Completely agree with you on love-triangles, too! With the small added caveat of maybe sometimes it's actually okay if a character is torn between two or more love-interests specifically because when you know you know and they know they love more than just one of them and they just don't know if their love-interests would all feel similarly okay with that but why-choose if not for that possibility-monogamy or even voluntary singledom is all wonderful, but not the only possible options that could be perfectly good and wonderful too; so long as it's all voluntary and informed and consenting, to each their own. 😊
Hey, Elliot. Great video. I've been thinking a lot about female characters in Fiction lately so this video came at the right time. As someone who has a passion dpfor not only reading but theater, I find that women characters often are different than male characters Eben if they serve the same role in the story. For example, When I have played a female love interest versus a male love interest I found that female love interests often are the ones being pursued versus the male pursuer. I think it's similar in romantasy, where the male love interests are very possessive over their girlfriend, versus when a girl is being possessive, it's mostly seen as jealousy, and not romantic. I also feel that when genders are swapped in theater, implcations change. Like, for example, if Romeo were a girl, then not only is there a queer context to their forbidden love, then you see a more assertive female character. A heroine who pursues the love interest very directly, in a way that I feel a lot of female MCs dont, at least in what I've read in books. I know this comment was all over the place, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that tropes are gendered and I wish more writers of all mediums would pay attention to the differences that make versus female characters play in a role, kinda like you said about there being rarely a female mentor character.
1:01:07 the fact you mention not many fantasy stories having parents that are fathers is actually crazy. Because that’s literally the entire thru-line of my novel lol nice. Also, almost everything in this, is what Ive implemented in it. So, I feel pretty good about writing characters.
Personally I think that female characters should be the same as male charactes in that they should span the whole breadth of human experience. Just like men women are individuals with different personalities and experiences and most importantly women are humans. That means women can be anywhere on the spectrum of good and evil, stupid or smart, competent/incompetent, caring/selfish etc etc. As long as theyre fully formed and not a charicature and make sense in the story and world
I love these long discussions
This was a great discussion! Thanks Elliot
I enjoyed this video. Thank you💯🤺
I love these discussion videos 😊
Cue that epic movie version with synths of Mulan making her decision in the rain and cutting her hair before heading out in her father’s armor!
36:20 Injuries, yes! Let them remain and affect the plot. I love well done injuries in books, let me feel the angst, even if I know they'll be fine eventually since they're the mc. (Injuries irl tho can stay away). There's a game "Radiant Hostoria: White Chronicle" (something like that) that actually had a good delivery on this. Early in the game the MC loses his companions and is mortally wounded, but then gets to travel back in time to change what happened. But while the world changes, his own self remains in the same condition he was before he traveled. Meaning he's still mortally wounded. The best part is, while the gameplay had healing mechanics those did not affect the plot injury, so even if he's healed in battle, storywise he's still injured. The situation eventually gets resolved, he collapses and is taken to the doctor, hovers at the door of death for a while and is fine again after some time, with all his friends worrying and telling him not to overdo it. I noticed it particularly because there was another game I'd played before where the character got mortally wounded and started battle with low health, but then was healed in battle and the story wound was magically healed too, and I felt cheated out of my emotions😅
Ursula K Le Guin…, Everyone needs to read her.
Facts!
An excellent mad scientist female main character is Maomao from Apothecary Diaries. It's not a fantasy, but a historical drama set in imperial China, but highly recommend it for anyone interested in exploring that time period. I especially love the way the story explores the gender politics and realities women face in imperial China, and the way our main character navigates those realities without beating us over the head is fascinating and such a breath of fresh air.
Not just publishing. Media in general has the "gimme more just like THAT" problem.
Well, one reason we so often see a male romantic lead that is a jerk paired with a woman who is submissive to him is because of the whole beauty and the beast psychology: he is a monster but not to me because I tamed him. It actually has very little to do with the appeal of the man himself and everything to do with how our taming of him validates something strong and feminine within ourselves. (Obviously this isn't ALL women, this relates specifically to the women who this trope appeals to.) Psychology aside, there can be a certain undeniable chemistry between two people who don't get along, as well as the idea that there will always be someone who makes you feel tongue-tied and the challenge to overcome that makes that particular dynamic more interesting than the ones that feel "easy". Now, these types of characters are really overused (and abused), but that doesn't mean it doesn't have some validity. I think the real issue here is poor execution (and generally being overdone).
Wouldn't normally watch a 1 hour 18 min video. But this one was quite interesting. Thanks for doing it
I wrote a series of short sci-fi novels that centers on a family. The first book is a young male protagonist, the second book's protagonist is his younger sister, the third is all about the parents and is the weirdest book, and finally the son of the original book. I think I avoided the issues discussed, but the main antagonists in the first book were two older sisters and I've always worried someone would read it and think I was somehow making all women villains. They start off as really monstrous but I tried to show that they were people too. They were also really fun to write. The second book had to have a female protagonist. This made me really nervous, so I purposely underdescribed her. To be fair, I also underdescribe her brother at first. I can't stand the trope that the protagonist has to be beautiful so I ran away from it. I think the only description she's ever given is "the active type" by a lady that puts makeup on her for the first time in her life. It's really hard to not accidentally walk into a trope and I really struggled with trying to avoid as many as I could. It's not easy.
38:25 It's a basic stereo type that isn't based on historical facts for every country or time period. Men traveled a lot, especially if they owned a business or were in a position of power: Duke, King, or Earl. Usually it was the woman who was in charge of the business or land (depending on country & time period) well the men where away. In fact some jobs considered to be a men only industry wasn't 100% accurate. I'd recommend the following books for aspiring or current authors of fantasy: 1) A Tough Guide to Fantasyland by Diana Wynne Jones - think of it as a glossary for terms that are clichés in fantasy writing. 2) Writer's Complete Fantasy Reference by multiple authors. 3) Putting the Fact in Fantasy by multiple writers I recommend them all but if you get just 1 of them I'd recommend #3. It talks about men & women rolls, ranks, wounds, etc.
Dungeon Meshi delivers on a lot of the points raised in this video and everyone should read/watch it!
"someone write that story" working on it, gimme a moment 😅
Shoutout to Leigh Bardugo for giving two loving, supportive parents to Inej and a loving and well-meaning, but not very competent mother to Alex Stern. Both were refreshing. I'm glad the "strong female lead who's by default good at everything and never requires help" trope is getting some push back. Maybe let's not teach young girls they can only be strong if they never ask for help to get out of danger. P.S. you're watching ATLA for the first time? I'm so jealous, you're in for a treat.
I love Leigh’s different dynamics with women. Alina and Genya’s friendship is among the best I have ever read. I’m in the middle of Ninth House and appreciate how Alex and Dawes know when to put their differences aside for bigger matters.
@@crystalfairy912 Dawes is such a queen🙌🏼
I would love to see more stories with women's strengths being shown rather than them being an awesome fighter and taking down men twice their size or skill. Women handle pain way better then men, show that. Even though it is a bit of a societal cliche I do think women multi task better usually, show that. I have never seen a woman in a series deal with her period or at least have issues arrise due to that and have to deal with them, I have never seen a female character dealing with a child whilst also potentially running a business or dealing with political things in the kingdom etc. I would also love to see more stories where the male main character or characters needs help from the female characters or learns from them, my wife has taught me so much about myself rather than things externally in the world, those things have helped me so much. Why is the master always a man who teaches the young hero, I feel like they may sometimes benefit from a female. I found the section about females being written and the only time they can show they are strong is in response to sexism to be very interesting. I was thinking about it and I just thought its unfortunate but obviously some of these, likely male, authors don't have the skills needed to write females well. Then I thought well they just should be better, we need more female authors. Then I thought I have read many female authors where they write men very one dimensional too, especially the very smooth sexy slightly bad guy character, who is written to show his emotional side and that's a big break through. I guess what I am trying to say is hopefully authors with time and more books they get better and more well rounded at all parts of writing and I think these things will always happen. Joe Abercrombie being a great example, the first trilogy the female characters that were actually there were very weak. The Age of Madness trilogy the female characters I thought were excellent and one of them was my favourite new character, only beaten by Glokta.
You said "ingenue" very well!
The ingenue in the book series I’m writing goes through HELL, and she’s so different at the end. My co-writer and I didn’t like the idea of a character going through so much, and there not being ramifications. No one in 1930’s mafia noir/“dark romance” (I don’t think that applies, but I’ve had several readers say it does) can come out unscathed.
More than an hour long video?! We have been blessed 😌. Thank you! ❤️
Thorn by Intisar Khanani has an unusual heroine - quiet strength rather than a warrior. And she develops over the course of the book. I really appreciated Raven's Shadow duology by Patricia Briggs because it featured both mom and dad and 3 kids!
I think the bad boy submissive thing is because tbh that’s what people want. Some of us read books to get out of OUR world and be in a fantasy and what’s more of a fantasy for the average woman in this world than not having to worry about everything and leave it up to the guy (or love interest). I know in relationships in the past that would be the DREAM because for many women they do have to take care of everything irl. The kids, the house, the food, their partner, the finances, the planning, just everything. And so when that’s something a book can touch on to entice readers, especially if the target audience is women, they go for it. It would be nice to have these ideal fantasy worlds where none of our society’s issues seep over but the reality is WE are the readers and WE are in our society so I think in some stories that ultimately are trying to be read and trying to make money, it’s inevitable
Kind of knives chau in steven universe. Even Ramona to an extent. Both grow bitter by their world experience. At least in the movie, I hear the comic is a bit deeper
At 23:00, remember that for much of recorded human history women did not have much say in who they became a wife to. So a fantasy in which a princess can tame a beast into a prince would be highly valuable amongst women of those time periods.
My favorite character of all time is a female. Faye Valentine from Cowboy Bebop… It’s a vibe thing. He has this thick cloud of mystery, and tragedy surrounding here, and she funny and cool. 😎 🚬
I would like to request a video where you talk about all the reasons Mulan is amazing! Please! 😂😁
Hour long video?! Yes please
24:37 I also have a problem with saying "female" for the exact same reason. Until watching this video, I haven't heard someone else voice the same concern.
For all those looking for more amazing older women/mom characters in their fantasy: Partial Function by JCM Berne and Sistah Samurai by Tatiana Obey! This was such a fun chat, amazing input from the viewers and loved all your reactions to them 🤩
I've been working on this series of dragon rider books that might never get published, but the best warrior during training is the MMC, but the moment he encounters one of the other main characters in the story, he finds out he is woefully not as good as her. But it isn't just she is badass, but experience since she is well over 1000. And he never wins a 1 v 1 duel with her.
21:00 I think it’s a fantasy girls have of making the bad boy go good or the bad boy who is only good for her (aka the reverse of the good girl who goes bad for the guy). Like the girl is so “special” that the bad boy is willing to change or be nice to only her.
I think we do see plenty of the “male expectation” writing you’re talking about not seeing, but it’s done in the opposite way from women. Yes, we don’t see many male characters being made to show their emotional side, but nearly every male character exhibits traits that many men in real life don’t live up to. In my opinion, this is largely due to male culture not having a self-critical evaluation like women have had with feminism. It’s deeply rooted in our culture that the actions of a ‘true man’ (aggression, taking action, fighting for what they believe in, etc) are the standard and ubiquitous drivers of plot in fiction, and it’s an expectation which in and of itself is stereotyping. So for women it’s become “true women exhibit these masculine traits” whereas for men it’s just “true men exhibit these non-feminine traits”. Both aren’t great for human beings if they’re deriving their identity from what they’re reading.
8:13 holy crow might be a twilight homage/diss, bella says it a few times
My suggestion to Artemis is *_Just Stab Me Now_* by Jill Bearup.
oh my goodness, this looks delightful! Thank you!
If you're interested in a subverted gender oppression novel where women are trying to free men from a radical matriarch, I'd recommend 'Sunset of Tyranny'
I just want to add that it's also fine to write a story in which nobody is interested in bucking the system or redefining society or traditions. If your story is set in an "old-fashioned" society in which men work and do the warring and women stay home and take care of the kids and the house. It's totally fine if all the characters are on board with it. You don't have to be interested in it as a reader. But that's fine. It's also fine to like it and not want to read a story that is filled with lots of "destroy the patriarchy" messaging.
Yes, I agree!!! I myself have a problem with the "woman written by a male autor" being looked down upon. That books are our history. It is so many times sad that book do reflect the time in which they are written, also meaning RL. We should be gratefull we didn't experience some kind of " The Handmaden story" distopial world order in RL but instead world does more forward in so many ways. So let it be please. One doean't need to read those books if one has a problem with it BUT also stop that allmighty judgy looking down upon as well. I want to read about a warrior woman in tight skin-revealing outfit like The Princess of Mars. Also 🤔 why is it a male writer folt that woman is wearing a short pants & wielding a sword on warm Martian climate and not in-book-c?FMC-choice, for example. It does tie in to the above "strong woman acts like man" trope in a way. Thank you for reading my rant.
Yeahhh Also one point I wanna bring up, There’s a funny saying I’ve seen, I don’t remember it accurately so forgive me if I’m wrong, but it was something like; the strongest man of England loses to the weakest woman of Scandinavia, just because of the magnitude of strength it took back then to do chores without the modern conveniences of today. We don’t give the women of the past enough credit for the lives they led. Also feel like back then people had less choice to do as they wanted and follow their dreams, both men and women, they just worked hard and took care of their families ( I’m not talking about the 1800s or even 1700s, I’m saying wayyyyy back when, especially in rural areas where people lived simple lives.) It was just decided to divvy up the chores and workload like that, honestly I respect it. As long as there’s no abuse or taking advantage or laziness, I can respect it.
I can relate to the topic of growing up in a very religious conservative area. There was a girl my senior year of high school who was engaged. He was a guy she started dating as a sophomore and he was a senior. (Edit: to note, I graduated in 2005)
I, unfortunately, DNFed quite a few books this month due to the exact problems mentioned in this video! I got the idea that the authors (surprisingly most of them are women) want to give us a strong female character, but for some reason they never celebrate the feminism by allowing their character to be a woman. Quite the contrary, they have to wear men's cloth, and/or adopt manly manners, they have to be, or can only be able to be recognized as a strong woman by....being a man? By completely giving up all the feminine features that (should be) celebrated? And unanimously, these FMC did this for survival purposes. I was so annoyed.
I am at 20min in section...I believe it is the target audiance but also writers story itself or if autor is more skilled [ finds it easy] in writting "bad boy". Would writting the other "nice guy" make the book longer 🤔 Also "bad boy" has always a tension going on for a reader and some "action" feeling to it also some twist is more easy to happen than with that other grounded kind of a man [here is more effort to be put. Is it that difficult?] Yes, maybe the combination of "fixing the man" + "different that other woman". Can someone make book sugestions here? Thx.
Where can I find character archetypes usually associated with female characters?
“Also I want to take my socks off” took me out
I just want characters who are interesting. I am tired of it mattering that they are women or men. I am tired of reading about how they are strong and amazing because they overcame their gender. I want to read stories where if I am reading in first person, I could potentially never know the person's gender because it doesn't matter. It isn't needed for them or the story to progress.
57:18 - I have this story already in mind (and partially outlined). Heroine is corrupted by the very thing she needs to use in order to be the hero. It's a slow decent over several books, becoming harder to resist due to plot reasons. It starts off with kind of a sweet love story with POVs with the male and female MCs (this part is already a short story I wrote that's a historical fiction, but it became the basis for an Authorian legend based fantasy) and you'll see how the decent happens over time and the strain it has on their relationship. And in the end, who knows how shattered her world will be? I do want to get dark with it with the arc going from, "I know the school children are in the way, but we must save them" to "I said burn it, I don't care if the school children are in the way." Unfortunately, it's a few books out on my project timeline! I'm just glad to hear when people want to read something I have planned :)
Showing older women as main characters is a good reason why Sleeping Beauty is actually a good feminist movie. Also, it was really the older women who defeated Maleficent, not Prince Philip, who is only the pawn.
I would love to get back to the stories that treat male and female like character traits instead of personalities.
Right now I'm in the middle of the Liveship traders. Tho I can't speak for the ending, there is a female character who has to reevaluate her position in society and whether or not she wants a conventional life with a husband and children, a bit like it was mentioned thisnvideo. This series in particular has a lot of feminist themes so far.
13:00 Obvious who the OTP/one true pair is?
(Okay first off SO many things just made me crack up! Not in a, "I'm laughing at you way" but just some of these things are STRAIGHT UP HYSTERICAL.) Second, yes, to SO MUCH OF THIS. Where are the balanced characters!? People are so complex and that's what makes their lives, and reading about them so enjoyable. It would be nice to have gentle and feminine FMC's who know how to throw a punch and maybe even LOVES a non-conventional female sport (like boxing or maybe even hocky) because they genuinely find it interesting to watch, not because it has a bunch or burly men in it. Character's with seemingly contradicting interests and traits would be so lovely. And yes, please, for once (maybe even forever?) let the hot guy get friend-zoned and treated like he's just another human being. (Maybe even let that be the reason the unreasonably attractive male character RESPECTS the FMC?) Also a side note, I don't think I have ever read a series where the romance/love interest isn't even MENTIONED in the first book or so. It would be interesting to see a series that brings in the love interest and romance AFTER we have gotten to know the FMC and her life and the people in it a little bit.
Ok. I'm gonna be controversial (not really...) Mom characters are an issue. When the mc (or even a important side character) is a mom I have yet to see a story told that doesn't reduce that person down to a person whose only motivation is her children. Her only personality is her children. She is now completely utterly defined by the expectation of being a mother who will sacrifice it all and is only driven by the well-being of their offspring. Wanna save the world? Of course it's for my children! Uhh...or because it's the world? Maybe just need to save the world? It's reductive and irksome. It's that expectation that people lose their personhood once they become a mother. More moms? Yes, please! But if they're mom characters like that? No thanks. I'd rather not.
Why do you consider a mom or a dad character for that matter, saving the world for their children a negative? Saving the world for one’s children doesn’t negate the fact at all that the character saved the world. Becoming a parent should change or alter one’s core and one’s children should be #1 in their life. This doesn’t mean a person loses their personality, but it’s called being responsible and caring. Granted this is my opinion being a person who had one parent like that and another who left their child to focus on her own interests. I think a character putting their own shtuff first and not their kids would be a bad character. There are a number of villain characters that do that. I understand what you mean by the character should not lose their personality by becoming a parent. Becoming a parent should add to a person’s character. However, a character needing to save the world for their child is still the character needing to save the world. Most characters that need to save the world do so for others that they love; even those they haven’t met yet, and oftentimes even for those they do not love. Harry Potter for example; Lily died to try to save him but also she was fighting to save the world. Molly Weasley was fighting and risking her entire family for her children AND the world. Harry was willing to die to save others, everyone else that he could. There are a bunch of books where the FMC or side characters are moms with tons of character to spare AND still put their kids first. I read a lot of romance where this happens a lot, but there’s fantasy too. Have you read the Howl’s Moving Castle Series? Sophie has A LOT of character. Brittany Fichter has some. In her Autumn Fairy Trilogy a mother gives the ultimate sacrifice to save everyone and that happens to include her child. Robin McKinley’s “Spindles End” has Katriona a motherly figure (without giving away the story) and she has plenty of character throughout; even when she goes from a main character to a side character.
Something tells me you are not a mother.
Agreed!
Agree completely. You don't stop being a person with your own interests, ideals, and principles the minute you become a mom. You're still YOU. I'd like to see more mother characters who are devoted to their children but still find room in their minds and hearts to be interested in other things (e.g. music, art, politics) as well.
@@LisaMarieFord Because it's literally THE defining character trait of 99% of all the mother characters and hardly ever of father characters, which says a lot..
I think the whole bad boy thing is in a lot of cases related to masochistic fantasies. Sometimes a little bit of fear adds a thrill to a fantasy. It's kinda like how a lot of women have r*pe fantasies but it's not the same as wanting to be r*ped in real life because in a fantasy you are in complete control. I get the appeal and sometimes I'm in the mood for something like that, but generally not a whole book. And if it's not internally consistent with the characters themselves, it's a no from me.
Hold on.. The whole bit with the movie character who had a skin condition, what's the problem here? Why are we upset about her teeth being fine? What's a skin condition going to do to her teeth? Its not a bone or enamel condition.
Holy crow, YES! I agree this push back against traditional gender roles is pushing too far and leading to cardboard cut outs of characters. Nuance is a thing folks. (Yes I am stealing holy crow, I like it!)
I agree with overuse of “female” being annoying. Every time I hear it instead of woman or girl I hear the droning old science guy voice, “The female of the species….” 😂
I hear it in a Ferengi voice, dripping with contempt. Can't stand it.
A lot of the problems mentioned in this video would be solved if authors just gender swapped the characters in the final draft.
when you said mistborn and love triangle I was like WHAAAAT?? I've read it twice and didn't recall at all. searched for it and then remembered what you were referring to haha
I disagree about the damsel. The damsel crybaby is a wish fulfillment for men, she’s an embodiment of classical helpless femininity that a man can rescue and conquer. The female wishfulfillment damsel typically comes with a VENEER of strength/brattyness and plot relevance so that the woman reading it can feel kinda badass but also be rescued and taken care of. The two tropes look similar, but they are different. Think Marian in Robin Hood 1991 vs. Feyre from ACOTAR/Bella from Twilight. The female wishfulfillment character will often be holding BACK her emotion. She is repressed, like the reader, and part of her ‘strength’ is holding back and keeping it together.
Yup, I agree with you man - the differences between men and women are at the edges.... JP spells this out the best - we have in general so much in common, it's just beyond frustrating living through this dystopian nightmare atm. Being set against each other continuously is exhausting.
Won't be unhappy to see the "tough/compulsively independent/cold/stubborn/unlikeable" FMC trend go the way of the dodo. Read the Red Queen series but couldn't stand Mare. Liked the setting and plot of Godkiller, but had a really hard time with Kissen as FMC. Way too abrasive.🙄
Can you do videos author vs author who would choose based on books and characters or something 🌻🌼💓💖🌼🌻🌼🪻🩵📚🩵🌈🌈🩵📚🌸🩷🌹🪷💛🌸🩷💖💓💓💖🌼🌼🌼🌷💞🫶🏻🫶🏻💜💙🩶🩶🩶🧡
From Hudson Hawk, 'I got bored so I rescued myself'.
Daenerys was done so dirty in GOT, I refuse to watch their Netflix show because of it. D&D's sexism was extremely obvious with what they did to all the women who gained any kind of power in the show by making them "go mad" but none of the men do. I really hope that GRRM finishes his books or at the very least, tells us the ending he planned for Daenerys because season 8 is not it.
Yes asoiaf/got, famously a work where the men are all amazing angels who do no wrong. Arya, sansa, brienne, all women with power who aren't "mad" (whoever said that dany was "mad" in the first place?) But I guess they don't count cause they don't have white hair and a dragon. The very simple theme of "absolute power corrupts absolutely" flew over most people's head it seems. People also seem to think that d&d, who were clearly ticking off a to do list, somehow came up with the ending themselves as if they wouldn't have loved given people the basic ending they seem to desire and be praised to the high heavens by the most annoying people on the Internet. But I for one am glad that female characters get to be all that male characters get to be including evil and delusional.
I love this series so much always great long discussions ! 📚🥀💓🌞🌞🌞🥀📚📚🥀📙📙📙🌺🌺🩵🩵🩶🪻🌈📖📚🩷🩷📚📚💓🌞📙📙📙🩵📖📖📖🌻💓🌞🌞🥀📚📚❤️📙📙🩵🩵📖📖🌻🌻📖🌈🌼🌼💖💖🪻🌺💓🌞🌞❤️📙📙🌺
I think to some degree, the male characters that can be sassy or a bad boy are more interesting characters to follow. But the nice guys are seen as “boring”. I like both, but I get it. I love the morally grey complicated characters, but if I was dating that in real life I would be like NOPE. I think that’s part of it. I think the dark characters that are bad but possibly deep down have a good heart are really interesting
Azula too from Avatar…
need more week characters in general gimme tragic failures who never self actualize. gimme spiteful losers and cowards. need ppl whose lives fall apart in interesting ways and whose flaws we can relate to and also who have such baffling and unique flaws that they are singular.
Long standing troupe I hate is the Destined Special who was spirited away for protection, then her destiny comes a knocking, she steps out into the world and it turns out she's absolutely useless. She has no skills, no knowledge of the world, she's a sexy lump of flesh. Then, miraculously, a MAN appears. As it so happens this man is worldly and contains all of the knowledge the Destined Special is missing. I can't remember specific books that did this troupe, but if it was a female-lead fantasy book written in the 80-90s by a man it generally followed this troupe. I'd also say characters like Rapunzel in Tangeled and Anna in Frozen follow this troupe.
Are we really using Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series as an example of a love triangle? Everyone knows romance is his weakest suit.
Ms.brooks you are a total babe
1:12:09 sorry what? Don't girl's have sizes? Like I know I'm a waist 32 adult. I just find that and it fits.
yeah.... good luck with that. We have sizes, but they don't tie to any real numbers and vary wildly from store to store, and even within stores. so that 32 is inches right? women's are like "oh I'm a 16" but 16 what? and you could be like a 10 in one place and a 22 in another. I remember in high school trying on clothes at Ralph Lauren and having to get an XXL sweater to fit, when I was usually a medium. Pissed me off! And now that I'm really an XXL finding clothes in stores that don't cater to more than 'straight' sizes is near impossible.
Never use an apostrophe to pluralize, the word is just "girls."