Dragging a wing while winch launching can be incredibly dangerous. In this video I analyse this accident, where a number of factors combine to create this accident including long grass, not enough wing running, and failure to release in time.
Official report in french:
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Original video:
• Schleicher ASK 21 sail...
British Gliding Association Winch Accident Simulations:
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British Gliding Association Safe Winching Guidance:
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British Gliding Association Stop the Drop presentation:
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Bill's excellent video on how winch launching works:
• Introduction to Winch ...
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00:00 Intro
00:50 Keeping wings level
01:14 Wing Running
02:09 Torque
03:41 Long Grass
04:35 Wind
05:10 Releasing too Late
06:16 Pre-Flight Thinking
07:14 Conclusion
08:15 Me landing badly outro :)
I’m the CFI of a winch launch club and I can tell you there would be no launches with grass that long on my watch! The long grass is too much of a risk at take-off and landing.
Yeah agreed it's way too long for any form of aviation! PS CFI means different things in different countries. Could be Chief Flying Instructor (i.e. the boss) or Certified Flying Instructor (i.e. any instructor)
I’m in Australia so it means Chief Flying Instructor
@@granthamilton2695 My friend Adrian is in Cotswold Gliding Club, still the chairman i think but we run throughthese checks: Controls Ballast Straps intruments flaps trim canopy brakes and eventualities. That video had a clueless pilot or student flying and didnt release in time. Honestly, safety first
“High”....grass is ‘high’
@@PureGlide CFI means the same anywhere in the world in aviation CHIEF FLYING INSTRUCTER
Great video - wish I 'd seen this 24 years ago. Dropped a wing on a Skylark 4 in 1997 while winch launching. I was new to the type and didn't get to the cable release in time. Smashed left leg up so bad it was amputated below the knee three months later. The best advice here is to hang on to the cable release and pull that sucker if the wing goes anywhere near the ground. Take it from someone who knows. BTW I do OK with 1.5 legs - just so glad to be alive which I very nearly wasn't
Hi Rob, thanks for sharing, I can't even imagine what that would be like to go through. A critical lesson for us all. And exactly right, great to have you with us!
@@PureGlide No problem! The other big takeaway for me was how quickly it goes wrong. Winch launching often seems routine but there is a phenomenal amount of energy involved and your control over events really is on a knife edge.
Douglas Bader is 1 of my hero's.
all my sympathy. Hope you could go and pick up flying again after adequately healing...
Rob, Thank you for sharing a tremendous story & lesson. Very curious to know; Did you return to the sport? (I'm betting that you did?) GOD bless 📖🛐🛫🛬🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🐆
As a newly winch rated Pilot, this great video vividly demonstrates to me how quickly things can turn to custard. Thanks Tim.
Hey thanks Colin, yeah important to realise eh!
I will now adapt holy s**t to holy custard!
We had an instructor cartwheel his ASW20 to his death barely 2 years before that. In France, too. +200 member club. Similar winch. We made considerable efforts to analyse the accident into its smallest factors and make the national sailplane community as aware as we could about winch cartwheeling, including circulating the excellent BGA resources you point to. Seeing the first shot of this thing here sit, ready to go, in the middle of tall grass made me scream out loud. So sad to see those 3 (yes, the wingwalker too) replicating every mistake we tried so hard to call attention to. And on a shoulder winged aircraft, no less. Imagine a duo discus with water balast instead... That they could walk away from it is a testament to the build quality and gracious behaviour of the venerable ASK-21. One recommendation missing from the report, you do point to, but i really want to stress: When running through your checklist, the two final items should be to check the wind and state your actions in case of mishap, including "if a wing drops, pull the release". You do so out loud and thoughtfully, even when alone. This primes your short term memory and will give you precious tenths of seconds in reaction time. There is a significant startling factor here. Even with your hand on the damn thing, you have to be poised to actually pull it :D I have witnessed quite a few who just didn't and got away by sheer luck. Also, as a wingwalker: when you level the wings, that means you agree to the situation (hook choice, seating, spoilers, canopy, dolly, pattern space, *runway*). It is your reponsability to say no if anything is out of order.
Hi sorry to hear about your instructor. Thanks for your comments.
As a beginner hang glider pilot, your content has been super helpful and informative as far as the physics of flight. The production value is also high. Well done.
Thank you very much!
We keep it simple at our club…. Eventualities brief: During the ground run, if you can’t keep the wings level, release immediately! Safest approach to this issue. Great video and we’ll done! 👍🏻
Yip bang on, that is the critical bit
It's been a decade since I last flew a glider and I still have the phrasing my club used drilled into my brain: "I will keep my hand on the cable release until we are airborne. If a wing begins to drop during the ground run and I cannot instantly correct it with opposite aileron I will pull the release immediately". Gloves were also banned during winch launching at my club after an incident where a pilot wearing a glove tried to pull the release and it failed because the ball slipped through their hand (you could wear gloves in flight, you just had to put the left one on after the launch was completed).
I had a similar accident to this one, also in France with long grass, in 1990. I did pull the release as soon as my wing went into the grass but be aware that the release is much harder to pull when under a lot of load. My hand slipped off the release and by the time I had got back on it and pulled it, the glider was rotating towards the ground from 20 or 30 feet. I was very lucky not to die. It went in nose first and fell onto its back.
Hi, great points to be aware of, thanks for sharing.
@@PureGlide That's a *MORE* than great point. Its a vital one. Think about it: *How many folk expect the release to be so much harder under load* ? Has anyone looked into this to ensure every pilot would know if they have the grip & shoulder strength necessary?
Holy cupcakes 🧁 Batman. Yeah that’s dangerous and your lucky. This is what scares me about flying. 😳
Cutting the grass at the launch site would be a good start, probably a little difficult too run through knee high weeds
Yeah exactly right!
In Germany there are actually regulations for grass airfield. I think we are only allowed to have the grass at 15cm max.
That was the first thing I noticed! No doubt that was a major contributing factor. That grass definitely didn't help the situation at all.
Yes. It was fairly obvious, but either the (presumably the Instructor in the back seat) PIC's desire to operate over-rode SAFETY concerns, or the PIC's experience and ability was insufficiently knowledgeable, experienced or skilled to accurately assess and make a disciplined, if disappointing, correct command decision. Not preaching, merely observing analytically. Most who've been in active in aviation any significant length of time will have made a similar errors of judgement at one time and another, been luckier than the few, and learned from them. Totally avoidable incident, and when it did all start to go pear shaped, whilst it's apparent it all happened very quickly, clearly the PIC was mentally behind the aircraft, unprepared for unexpected abnormal ops so early during T/O nor sufficiently SA cognizant to wrest control "My Aircraft" from the FP (assumed the stud was) and execute an IA -release. Right from the outset before a launch was even contemplated, ops should have been cancX until the grass was mowed, or ops moved to a mown area adequate for planned ops. Of course, they'd realise that now reviewed from the perspective of 20:20 hindsight. Pleased they both escaped fatality status.
@@steilkurbler4973 I take it your wing tips are specially adapted for long grass then. I'd suggest anything over 3" is too long.
74 years on and still learning i don't know it all. thanks
Great video. I’ve done 600+ winch launches and this was still informative
Hey great to hear! Have you had any wing drags? Or had to release before?
same here and same here!
@@PureGlide emergency release is part of the training before first single flight . . . So he should know the bang when full pull wire gets uncluchted .•°
@@PureGlide Never dragged a wing or even close to it. Lots of cable breaks at various altitudes down to 50’. The low and high breaks are no problem because you land straight ahead or go around. The intermediate hight breaks are dicey when you don’t have enough height for an easy 180 but you are too high to land straight ahead. Based on your field length and wind you need a mental mark on what altitude you will commit to what action before you start rolling.
@@sidtp7307 good point.
Lost a friend like this....😪 hope pilots were OK. Thanks 4 educating us.
Sorry to hear that. Sounds like they were lucky in this case, no injuries reported in the investigation report.
Hello Tim! Thank you for bringing an important matter like this on the table! If I remember it correctly 30 years ago our flight instructor told us that according to the Segelflugbetriebsordnung (SBO) it was strictly forbidden to guide hold the leeward wingtip in a crosswind scenario! When the helper on the lu ward wing is lagging you're turned into the wind contributing to your aileron authority instead of diminishing it. And the wing pointing into the wind remains always low because a slow runner is automatically holding the wingtip back and down instead of rising it up high towards an accident. Just my 2 cts (sorry for my poor English)
Yes I agree, that might have helped. Good English! Cheers
Good points! Also, good English, besser als mein Deutsch!
@@greybirdoThat was true back in the 70’s when I flew gliders… Has it changed?
I have been flying for 8 years in Soesterberg (acvz) in the netherlands. And one of the rules we never broke was If the grass is longer than 15cm = no flying!, first mowing the lawn!😁👍
Yeah good rule!
15cm even seems quite long...just took my tape measure out and that's a LOT of clinginess.... 5-6cm seems more manageable.
I trained on the winch, coming to aerotow fairly late. I think complacency sets in quite quickly when only winch launching. The long grass was the obvious thing here to me … On winch launching things happen so quickly …. Great video - will help save many pilots in the future …
Thanks!
Long grass also affects "wind gradient" and can cause a significantly different air speed over the port and starboard wing panels , even before the glider is moving.
Interesting, I hadn't thought of that. Cheers
@@PureGlide that’s an interesting.point. So initially the wing is sheltered from the wind in the grass but as soon as the right wing lifts, the relative wind will increase dramatically and that’s adding to the fact it’s travelling forwards faster because it’s rotating forwards because of the drag so no wonder it lifts so quickly. Plus the lift on the right just pushes the left wing harder into the long grass.
An aerodynamics buff at my club did some non-steady state analysis many years ago when we had a similar accident. His conclusions were that the drastic change in relative wind gradient seen by the higher wing played a more important role in the onset than the superior "friction drag" from the wing dragging through the grass / soil. This might explain why crosswinds are such a strong aggravating factor in these events, as they also affect the gradient assymetrically.
*Affects. Quite a different meaning to effects.
Spot on Tim, excellent training aid. I've seen several winch accidents some with severe results. The one sure way to stop this type of accident is pull off if you can't keep the wings As an instructor I find ending the flight right there if the wings aren't level grabs the students attention like nothing else and its a training opportunity. Debriefs like "You let the wing go down a bit" don't work.
Thanks very much, yeah agreed
Good hint, agreed, wilco
I was taught as a wing runner to stand slightly forward of the wingtip. so that the tip would not be snatched out of my hand the moment it started to move, but would travel past me as i started my run. It just gave a few more seconds in which i was supporting the wing. Standing behind the wing you've no chance of keeping up with it...It also had the advantage that the pilot could see me holding his wing during the take up slack.
Another good tip, cheers!
We learned to stand behind in order not to be hit with the wing. To be honest, for a winch start you do not really need to hold the wing for more than a couple of steps unless you have a strong tail wind)
It makes sense to stand slightly forward but you should not hold the wing at the leading edge. I observed wing runners who would in this case unintentionally hold the wing back, sometimes even slightly turning the glider in their direction. If the wing is fast enough to be snatched out of your hand, it is fast enough for the pilots to level it themselves with the aileron.
And pinch it with your fingertips, don't grasp it (particularly on a leading edge) with your whole hand in such a way that your hand could catch it and spin the wing around. It's about delicately balancing, not holding back or pushing, I was taught, which makes sense. And keep running alongside/balancing until it naturally accelrates away from you too. Your fast running speed for release is about right. I have seen some inexperienced wingrunners give a final "push" on the wing as they release, which is just as bad as holding a wingtip back. Not so good.
Valuable instruction as always. As an experienced glider pilot and winch driver, can I add a couple of points. Unless you are an instructor with experience of pulling the release for simulated cable breaks, you have no idea how much effort it takes to pull it under full load. It can be quite a lot more than expected. I recall an accident report of a few years ago that commented on woolly gloves contributing to the accident- hindering effective grip on the shiny knob. Be aware of this in colder weather. Wear good grippy leather gloves or none. I think winch drivers could do more to make the start less of a jerk, I was taught to open the throttle gently, whilst swiftly, so not to throw the pilot all over the place at a critical moment.
Hey great points, thanks for sharing!
Good points, I take gloves off for all launches and whenever I’m running the wing. My instructors taught me years ago to keep a firm grip on that release as you wouldn’t believe how hard you’d need to pull in an emergency situation.
Agreed, I'd like to add that a smooth acceleration is very good for the wing runner also, to a better job, not trip or slip in the long grass and should also be properly instructed. Like, don't hang onto the wing tip to help your feet to catch up! Also if cross wind was from the right, an experienced wing runner, on the right wing tip could have hung on to pull the wing back and down before its all going too fast.
Serious suggestion - You won't easily beat *rubber palmed knitted back work gloves* for grip. They're fairly warm too. ('Tho if you intend to go poking around in high wave you'll maybe want something much more insulated).
Good idea on gloves. I'd like to recommend that all cable knobs be full of grooves and rounded pointy bits for good grip by any hand or gloves.
At my very first solo flight, at age 18, I landed at the right side of the airfield to make more space for the planes about to start BUT, just before I touched the ground, one tip was about a meter into some very tall grass, and I made my first and last ground loop! Luckily at very low speed, on the wheel and plane and I was fine. My instructor drew a pig tail in my logbook "landing" back in 1981 :D And after a short check, just a few minutes later, I went up again, and without any incidents. My dad taught himself to fly in an open glider, SG32 in 1942, at an airfield very close to the German border, and with a rope to one of the farm's two workhorses "Tulle", and with his younger brother on the horse, the made a few attempts to learn to steer the plane on the ground, before he finally made it into the air, about 100 ft, and landed in the pastor's best apple tree... He was okay, but the plane needed some work before he could fly it again, and he did. When they took his license to fly (medical reasons) at age 60, he had 19.976 hours in the air, exclusive his time in gliders. Most of the hours were in agriculture planes, Pawnee, Rockwell Trush Commander, and the Australian Transavia PL- I 2 Airtruck. I only got a few hundred hours in gliders, and my last flight was in 1989, but I still miss it every single day, and my dad the same, until his death at age 83.
Good video glider pilots / wing runner hear. One of the local pilots had a self launch glider he preferred I run his wing even over his family because when I run a wing I run hard and fast even when I was 65 years old.
Good stuff! Nice work
Make sure that the pilot is current on winch launching. It may sound obvious but I was winching a visiting pilot who had landed out on our airfield. He insisted he was current on the winch but it turned out he wasn’t, he just didn’t want to wait to be collected. The sight of his glider in plan view just off the ground was terrifying. I was able to cut the power before the wingtip hit the ground but the damage to the glider was still extensive as he was not able to regain control. It all happened very quickly.
Yes, such stories repeat itself every so many years. I was flying during the eighties, and we were warned for fools who thought they could try it. Often at competitions you meet foreigners. Dead of course. Everybody thought he had the experience. I do hope today the license shows tow and/or winch.
Very timely vid, was just explaining to a student yesterday the importance of releasing if a wing even thinks of dropping. Also added a short cord to the release knob on the ASK21 so I could rest my hand on my leg and still release if needs be, other wise I have to lean forward to reach it, which is very uncomfortable on launch and climb.
Cheers Anton, yeah critical you can reach it even with the G's being pulled :)
I fly quite a few different gliders and many of them don’t have good ergonomics when it comes to the placement and operation of the release. I do as Anton does and attach a short bit of rope with knots in it that I can grab and pull quickly. To have your hand actually on the release in some types would make the flying part difficult and uncomfortable. For a critical control they are sited somewhat randomly in the cockpit. In some machines the release is obstructed by the flap lever, or it is forward of the stick at the bottom of the instrument panel. By the time you have a) decided to pull off, b) looked for and found the release and c) stretched out and pulled it, you are half-way through the accident...
Superb Tim, You may even save lives with this video, AWESOME!!!! Many thanks.
Thanks Austin, I've certainly modified my winching techniques in the recent past, e.g. going from 'near the release' to 'on the release'. Cheers!
Even though I sometimes saw gliders as a child at the Elb- meadows and had to be later an easy soldier at a flight school for officers, I never heard of wing runners. Very interesting and I hope also glider pilots and helpers see this good video. As a soldier, I had only to operate with big spotlights for starting and landing of AN14, a motor biplane. (11/1974-5/1976)
Chatting with fellow instructor, analyzing a similar accident. He recently was soring in France and they had lanyard attached to the release, looped around the pilot's wrist so they could pull the release while having enough slack to prevent an accidental release... and since you do not have hold on to the release, this way you also do not accidentally miss when you have to pull. Fly Safe
It's an interesting idea, although I'd suggest the tow release should always be in reach, without extra tools! It is easy to slip back in the seat with a winch I realise.
A nice exercise to show wing runners is to park a K21 in a crosswind and then hold the wings level. Get them to time how long it takes for the wingtip to hit the ground after letting go. Then ask them to hold the wings so they are balanced - rather than level - and then repeat the exercise. The difference in time for the wing to drop can go from 2 or 3 seconds to 5 or more instead.
That is a good idea to try! Thanks
NIce informative video as always Tim. Simply explained!!!!
Thanks again!
Great video Tim, thanks! I’ve never a winch launch accident, quite an eye opener.
Thanks! Glad it helped
Nice video, all good points. A couple thoughts - In a crosswind, the wing runner should not necessarily hold the wings level, but keep the upwind wing down a bit so the glider balances. At least as much as practical, that helps keep the wind from picking up the wing as soon as you let go. We can only launch from one direction and so have to deal with crosswinds fairly often. A slow winch start makes this problem worse, I think that is more of an issue with the tension-controlled winches. A smooth but rapid acceleration is a good thing.
Yeah I think I need to make a separate video on wing running! And yes this did have a cross wind so the wing runner might have been on the wrong side and not taking the wind into account like they should. Cheers!
It's crazy, that the same thing happend to me 2 days ago. My wingtip got to low at the launch and I released right away. But i did exaktly the thing you predicted and spun 90° arround.
Hey glad it turned out OK, and that I'm not talking complete rubbish!
@@PureGlide Well I think arround 450 winch launches as PIC helped a lot. In my opinion are the short flights ("Platzrunden" in german) more important than many believe. It´s pure training for some more difficult situations like an outlanding or some complication while starting.
Glad you were okay and the training paid off. Happy landings.
Great summary of the risks and how to stay safe. thank you 👍👍
You’re welcome! Thanks for watching
I really enjoy these videos. There is a lot to be learnt from looking into crashes so we can all be better pilots. Keep up the great work. PS New Zealand is such a beautiful country. You are very lucky to be flying there.
Thank you!
I learned on the winch and had my solo on winch too, it's as the same time really cool and slightly more dangerous. Any error amplify and accelerate incredibely fast with a winch launch. (sorry for bad english)
Yeah I know exactly what you mean, and agree, it can go wrong very quickly and very badly as this video shows!
Epic video, respectful and clear explaination. At the moment of writing this comment there are only 5 people that do not understand the video and downvoted. Nice score!
Thanks! I could post a video of a cure for cancer, and it would still get some downvotes, I suspect some are automated. Or I have a rabid base of enemies who always downvote.
@@PureGlide hehehe I know exactly what you mean. Think every tuber has this. When I just started I was always thinking what can I do about em. Now i think better a downvote than no vote;)
You have an excellent presentation manner.
Thank you, you’re very kind
Good on ya, mate. That was an awesome explanation. Cheers!
Thanks Weston!
as a fellow instructor i don't fully agree that the wingrunner needs to try to run. Our winch pulls so fast that there is more risk of the runner not keeping up and pushing the tip down, or up, trying to follow the plane. I prefer they just level the wings and let it pull out of their hands without any vertical movement. keep the wing level and your hand flat and just let it go.
Yeah fair enough, and yes that is all important. A longer run probably wouldn't have made much difference in this case. He possibly should have had the into wind wing down more than he did? I might make a separate video about wing running...
@@PureGlide all depends on your winch engine capabilities of course. i just worry the wingrunner stumbles and pulls the wing down with him. As a competition leader i actually insisted to hold the wingtips myself at start, and not let the pilots family do it as they are normally used to doing that around here. they simply don't know your winch.
@@PureGlide there's a lot of weakness in wing running technique. To my eye, the wings were level prior to the runner letting go. There was a clear right crosswind. From the wing runner perspective on most gliders (at least the high wings I'm used to), you can feel the center of gravity shift left or right of the contact point of the tire. With a wind from the right it is pushing on the airframe above the contact point, trying to bank the plane left. In effect: 1) if you let go of the wing and it would fall down, you should hold the wing higher, 2) If you let go the opposite wing would fall, you should hold the wing lower. 3) While holding the wing it should roughly be floating neutral in your hand, and you shouldn't be fighting to hold it up
An American CFI with long experience at winch tow going back to Torrey Pines days (an iconic US soaring site just north of San Diego, now closed) sent around this commentary: ------ Note that the glider in question is a Grob 103 ... winch launching glass gliders is much more demanding that winching Schweizers, or any of the older K-7/ASK-13/Blanik trainers. The early on-take-off crash in this example is one I have never seen ... but it is all-too-easy to do in glass sailplanes, and the BGA training films talk about it. The same dynamics can happen somewhat higher on tow ... producing an even more lethal crash. And yes, the most basic thing is that you must have your hand on the release and you MUST PULL THE RELEASE WHEN A WING DROPS, INSTANTLY ... but there's more to know about it. What this instructor doesn't explain is that while the accident may have been started by the wing tip snagging the grass, what is happening is that THE GLIDER IS DOING A BAD SNAP ROLL! (AKA "Flick Roll") If you don't know what a snap roll is ... it's that the glider is SPINNING -- while traveling (sort-of) horizontally. In an aerobatic airplane you start a snap roll from a speed that is at least about 1.4 times the stall speed (2x stall produces a much better snap roll but requires 4 gees), it's an ACCELERATED STALL MANEUVER -- you slam the stick back HARD and you kick full rudder to intentionally spin the plane ... you get a wicked-fast snap roll ... you stop it by the usual spin-recovery: full opposite rudder and stick forward. So how the hell is this glider doing a snap roll, an ACCELERATED STALL maneuver? PSSST -- IT'S THE LOAD FROM THE TOW LINE. Once the glider is nose-up on tow the GLIDER is experiencing 2g aerodynamic loads or so, even though you as a pilot only feel 1g. This is why winch launch is such a deceptive maneuver to beginning pilots. Once the glider starts yawing and the nose goes up the lousy snap roll into the ground is inevitable, given the load. The yaw was triggered by the wingtip in the grass, but the problem is that the glider is at a high angle of attack AND g-loaded by the rope tension. Also note that if you look at the video carefully the pilot has up-elevator through the whole initiation of the disaster -- stick forward might have saved him too. Releasing the rope is so critical BECAUSE it unloads the wing, ditto stick forward! That will allow you to regain control. With a glass glider and CG hook you can initiate a loaded stall almost anywhere in the tow. The absolutely key thing is THE INSTANT a wing drops, RELEASE, stick forward! Do not try to pick the wing up with aileron until the stall is broken -- it's stalled, you will only make it worse. This kind of accident doesn't happen (as far as I know) with Schweizers (Older American trainer long out of production but still commonly used for primary training) BECAUSE the hook isn't a true CG hook, and the wings have much softer stall characteristics, and retain more aileron authority in a stall. Years ago I saw a horrible winch-launch fatality at Torrey Pines where a pilot flying a Standard Cirrus (they were the new hot item then) did just about the same thing as you see in this crash, but starting from a high climb angle at about 100 ft. He'd just established too high an angle of attack. You don't need to snag a wing in the grass to start a snap roll ..,. any accelerated stall with a little miscoordination will do it.
Hey thanks for sharing, they raise many great points. And I agree, it's possible to stall a wing at any stage, not just due to grass. The grass just helps get that wing into a stalled state...
Nice vid tim! Very informative.
Thanks Luke!
I was an instructor more than 40 years ago. Hard runway with a tow car and cable. The P2 was flying. We suffered a case when the wing tip holder held on to the wing tip. This caused us to swing to the right (the side the wing tip holder was holding), then the right wing dropped and was then into the long grass and thence we were soon off the hard runway. (wing tip holders who have never held a wing tip for takeoff before DO need to be briefed for the first time they do this). Of course I had taken control and tied to straighten things up but could not, so released. It all happened very very very quickly and it was something I had never expected to happen. I can still remember going near sideways for a few seconds, the glider skidding on the now grass surface. I think standards are higher now as it was not part of the instructor patter to review all the potential hazards other than to focus on "cable breaks" which were quite common - but then would you expect a wing tip holder to hold on anyway ? It is also worth pointing out this is why you should never have obstructions either side of the intended take off path, such as someone bringing back a glider even if they do move it to one side supposedly waiting for you to take off with the apparent available space.
Yeah completely agree re hazards infront of a launch. It's all fine until it's not! Thanks for sharing
The grass was way too long. The wingrunner stood in thigh´s high grass. Try to tear a bunch of grass by hand - very difficult - and now imagine 1000´s of them, which were wrapping around the wings leading edge - no chance. Any outlanding in this grass would also be tricky.
Yeah agreed!
Yeah. Even a short wing striking some grass would produce massive drag and cause an incident
Watching this reminds me of my days back in the eighties when I crewed for a Nimbus 3 racing pilot. I would run that 23 meter wingtip with a flat, open hand so as to avoid accidentally pulling back on the leading edge. It was quite the lever. You could have "opened that door" with a feather!
Ha I bet!
Great content. I have been signed off for winch launch for years, but never heard of releasing on a wing touch. Makes perfect sense. That said, no way I would launch with grass that high.
Yeah, I think a lot of winch pilots aren't aware how easily and fast this kind of accident can happen. If we're aware of it, then the long grass being a problem is obvious! Cheers
Nice vid Tim. And nice T-shirt!
Thanks Rob! It's a good one eh, for some reason I feel like a pie
been there , done that, didn't crash the glider because I was ready with my hand on the release. The pupil had had some problems keeping wings level. We put the glider dead center at the launch point, dead straight cable run out, short grass, wing runner briefed to run as long as possible, very low cross wind - what could go wrong ? As soon as we started to move, right wing went down a tiny amount, pupil put full left stick and rudder ! We were 6 ft in the air with left tip on the ground, I had time to shout "control" and took over. Main thought was get the nose down and wings level. Cable wouldn't release first time, by the second attempt I had the nose down and wings level. Cable released, but we were heading off at 45 degrees towards parked gliders and cars.....Distinctly remember thinking , well we're going to live, but it's going to be expensive.... started a low bank turn to get away from the parked gliders at about 6ft off the ground, as we came round, the right wing tip touched and we ground looped, but clear of everything. Next thought was, stick forward to keep the tail off the ground so we don't break the tail. Skidded to a stop sideways, in front of the club house. Main concern was did the pupil hit his head at all during the ground loop, gliders can be repaired. As we were in front of the club house, we went for a cuppa tea and had a chat. Inspector checked the K13 over, and no damage was found. Estimated total flight time ~ 6 seconds...
Wow, sounds like that was good reactions, combined with a touch of luck! well done.
At our air field we have an asphalt patch where the launches go out and we are briefed to release if the wing touches the ground.
That's good
Great video and comments, should help a few peeps keep safe...very clear and concise
Thanks Paul, yeah if it stops one accident it’s all worthwhile!
Always good information. Thanks
Thanks!
We've all seen the BGA animations but we just know the sceptics and less averse ones amongst us will dismiss this as over dramatising an incident. Some of our pilots did when we warned about the damage that could occur if the spare cable was left near a glider or onlookers and picked up by the live cable. Until we have an incident which fortunately due to our controls worked and avoided injury, just. This is unfortunate but exactly what we need to get the message across. There are several control failures examples to discuss during this video . I think you got em all. We will be using/sharing this :-)
Thanks Richard, yes I too had seen those videos previously, but until you see it in 'real life' via that video it doesn't quite seem realistic. Cheers
@@PureGlide Do we know if the winch driver had a view of the launch-point? some sites don't and rely purely on radio or semaphore controls. It appears that power was supplied until after release although that appears to be a back release. They could have improved the outcome possibly by dropping the power and reducing the rotation, possibly. BTW your door analogy is great.
If there is a crosswind .......the runner should have been on the upwind side .
Yes that's what the BGA recommends
No the BGA recommends on the downwind side to prevent weathercocking.
@@christopherrobinson7541 you can prevent weathercocking from either wing (basic physics)...holding the upwind wing is so that the wind can't catch the upwind wing from underneath sending it skyward.
Thank you I piloted a-glider and ended up in the same circumstances some 26 years ago. I was always told don’t.. but never why! Hard way to learn but my instructor and I walked away.
This happened to me once on a hang glider as I was attempting to foot launch at the "between the rocks" launch on Chelan Butte. Light thermal, began my run, then I let the left tip drop, it clipped a sagebrush, and rotated the wing. I tried to high side the bar to level the glider, but by then it was sideways, and I was about 15-20 feet up, since I DID get off launch, but with almost no control as it was still basically in a stall. Keeping it stalled as it came down, I was at least able to keep the wing flat enough to basically parachute down, instead of augering in nose first. Staying pushed out, the right down-tube took the impact on landing, and it bent outward. I landed on my side, and was OK, just had a badly bruised ego. It was pilot error, for allowing the left tip to drop, whether there was an uneven roll to the thermal or not. I should have had a stronger run, and kept the wings more level. Wing: Wills Wing SS 153, faired aluminum down tubes.
Interesting, thanks for sharing!
Concerning a hand on the release, true during winch launch. But I adwise against it during areo tow, where an accidental release can be much more problemetaic, like when you are still low at the end of the runway and full of water.
Yeah agreed! Only for winch launches, and not even the whole launch, just the beginning is critical. I normally let go once we're established in the climb. Good point, cheers
Needs to on, on very very near, for both, at least during the initial stages of launch.....period. Much more likely to drop a wing on aerotow due to lower acceleration and a similar situation can happen on aerotow.... ..plus you have a tow pilot you can kill as well. To say otherwise is plain poor advice. Can't believe that you agree with the guy above, extremely poor practice..
I may be wrong in this, (if so, please do tell me) When i hold the wing during a launch (whether it's an aerotow of winch doesn't really matter) i try to hold the wing not exactly steady or in the horizontal position, but I move (of hold) it gently in the direction the pilot is steering at that moment. The pilot usualy corrects his stick position instinctively in less than a second. Most of the time, the result is a neutral stick position and horizontal wings, within a few seconds, long before the cable is all out. If the pilot prefers the wings held a little banked into the wind, he instinctively moves the stick in that direction. If the tip runner follows that hint, the pilot gets exactly what he wants and expects. Being tip runner: _small_ and _gentle_ movements, of course, and NEVER apply strong force on the wing tip. If you do, there will be a sudden difference in force on the wing when you release it, and the pilot will feel a sudden change in bank angle, may even overcompensate... So rather let it move in the direction it wants (whithout having the wings touch the ground on either side) so the pilot automatically applies correction in the right direction. In an extreme situation, the pilot was holding the stick far of the middle (rarely happens, but it did once) I knocked on the wing to get the pilots attention to correct his stick position. Up until now, works like a charm, so far no complaints from the pilot.
Thanks, good advice. I should make a video on wing running!
As a wing runner, if the tip is exerting any up or down force STOP THE LAUNCH.
Interesting and very clear to follow even for a french guy. Congratulations from MARTINIQUE WEST INDIES.🇫🇷
Thanks Roger!
My soaring was very short-lived, but when I was active, I had a very low-cost idea that (if successful) could eliminate the need for wing runners entirely regardless of launch method. Seeing this video all these years later makes me think it still relevant. I'd be happy to share the idea with anyone that is still actively flying.
Really instructive footage and commentary. One thing I'd build on is that wing-running needs proper thought and training, and whoever's running the launch point should be observing the quality of wing-running alongside the rest of the activity. While it's certainly true that lackadaisical wing-running can cause problems so can the opposite, where someone over-compensates, develops a death grip on the wingtip and tries really hard to hold on as long as they can. Have seen this result in the wing-runner themselves holding the wing back as the winch accelerates and they can't keep up, thus causing the very swing they were there to help prevent.
Hi thanks for that, and completely agree. Could do a whole other video on wing running!
@@PureGlide That would be a great public service: obviously your own club could then use it as part of ground-handling training for newcomers and I'm sure we would have it in the rainy-day library too.
In the 70s you could only be a wing runner if you were trained up to the task.
Very good video. I don't think the wing runner could have held on any longer, with a powerful winch it is not possible to hold on for more than a couple of steps. One point which you did not mention is that we brief wing runners not to launch if they are having to apply any up or down pressure to hold the wings level. I am horrified by winching with long grass. We teach to hold the release and pull it if a wing is going down but it can happen so quickly and the pilot is looking forwards.
The first thing the pilot may notice is the strong yaw.
Thanks Mark, I'll make a separate video about wing running sometime! It's an art into itself sometimes...
Regarding wing running (around 2:00), I would say not much can be done here. He made few steps and glider 'snapped' forward - its very hard to keep up - humans cant accelerate that quickly. With an aerotow is much easier to run for long.
I don't disagree to some extent, it probably wouldn't have made much difference. However it is just another potential factor
@@PureGlide Well, it definetely could be but its too hard to say if it was here - and it was implied a little bit :) And there is one more wisdom from BGA - when wing feels heavy, stop the launch. I have to agree that their safety material is excellent. Plus, there is very little fatal winch launches in UK.
I saw a similar incident at 662VGS in the UK back in 1988. I was driving the winch. Student allowed the wing to drop onto the ground, instructor failed to get it back quickly, A/C reared up then belly-flopped onto the ground. Some damage to the wing spar, fleet grounded for a few months.
Nasty. The main point is the instructor failed to release when it started going wrong? As this shows it happens so quickly. Still if it was only damage to the glider, then that's not as bad as it could have been...
@@PureGlide It certainly happens quickly, and with the wing having so little distance to drop to hit the ground it takes lightning reflexes by the instructor to get it back when a student lets it drop. That long grass certainly didn’t help.
They didn't release. It Was the coupling opening automatically as the pull started to come from behind.
Thanks, yes we found the report after the video was made. Lucky! It could have been worse
i thought that too when i saw it at the beginning of the video, certainly looked like it back pulled.
its a winch launch (ie glider acceleration is high) so the wing runner might have been able to take one more stride at most. No, the real problems are:- 1) launching in long grass 2) crosswind? 3) not aborting in time
Agree. If the grass was shorter and they released as soon as the wing went down it would have been a gentle taxi into wind.... Done it many times from the back seat :-)
Yeah I did mention it happens fast and the wing runner might not be able to do much more, but I do feel this one they should have done a BIT more especially with the long grass.
Poche parole e spiegazione eccellente. Buon lavoro!
Grazie!
always good, thanks man!
My pleasure! Cheers
Wow, that got my attention! These pilots were very lucky. It's so easy to have your hand on the release in a K21, unlike in some types (ASW19, Nimbus, I'm looking at you...). Being a wing runner is a skilled job. For example, in a crosswind you want to hold the into wind wing just a bit low, to avoid the inadvertent roll, but you might notice that the pilot holds the ailerons away from you, trying to level the wings, which is worse! The pilot should also apply full rudder before the launch if they believe there will be any yaw, and be ready to make quick and large rudder inputs as soon as the actual yaw is apparent. It's hard to see in the video whether any rudder was applied here, but I suspect it wouldn't have made any difference.
Wouldn't full rudder inputs at the start of the ground roll cause a large rolling force, as a result of the secondary effect of the rudder/yaw? I think more useful might be to pull the cable in line with the glider to prevent yawing. Lot easier these days with dyneema as well
@@StudentGoose great question. Not if it is counteracting one of the other yawing tendencies, like crosswind. It's not always possible to eliminate yawing factors so you have to be ready for it. Of course part of being prepared is being ready to centralise(ish) the rudder once you have sufficient airspeed
There will be very little yawing secondary effect of the rudder in the first part of the roll, because there isn't enough airflow yet. Once it builds up speed then yes maybe some. But by then the ailerons should be working too?
I made a lanyard with a monkey's fist knot on the end for my ASW-19 to facilitate being able to release quickly.
Tim, you could add a number 6 - pilot not holding ailerons level and wing runner not holding wing level...often one causes the other. The controls become fully effective in about 2 seconds after all-out on a good winch. If the stick is held offset at the start the wing goes down fast and many don't react in time. See it a lot from the backseat.
Hey thanks Mark, good points. Cheers!
You can see the ailerions on the ASW19 showing right stick even as the launch starts,it was always going to drop,just lucky it wasn't on the uncut part of the strip.
Grass is to big!
@@tonypassmore3700 The ASW 19 is a single seat 15M glider, this has two seats, a Grobe 102 Twin Astir or similar.
@@christopherrobinson7541 Was commenting on the Single seat ASW19 that was shown dropping it's wing but still getting dragged into the sky,KD on the tail,the Twin is an ASK 21.Watch the video again and you will see what I was commenting on.
My flight instructors - and later myself - would never have allowed a launch like that. Multiple mistakes and negligence by all involved. I wonder how abysmal their training must have been, or how bluntly they ignored it.
Great video. Thanks!
Glad you liked it!
Thank you for bringing attention to this very important aspect of the winch launch. Another cause of a wing dropping is water ballast that has run into the downward wing whilst the glider is parked. The wing runner should notice that there is some down or up force on the wing with the wings level.
Yeah great point, thanks! I might do a video on wing running at some stage, that's a great point to cover.
At the same time, that wing runner was trying to run in knee high grass, and I'm sure the ground was uneven. Poor kid probably felt horrible. Does anyone know the status of the pilot and passenger?
Yeah agreed, it would have been awful for the wing runner to witness. The crash report said only damage to the aircraft. Must have hurt a bit though!
Very informative, THANK YOU.
Thanks Martin!
I’ve noticed that some pilots get used to dragging the wing on the ground slightly. Like in Florida where the grass is not what I’d describe as grass. It doesn’t grab the wing like the grass in the UK. I’d did an aerotow launch there with an instructor and nobody running the wing. I saw a similar accident when some cross country pilots landed out at our winch only club. They’d got used to dragging their wings on aerotow out of fields with no wing runner and all their club aerotow was on tarmac. In this case the damp grass grabbed the wing, the glider started to cartwheel, the pilot released and snapped the tail off.
Ouch! Yeah it might be fine occasionally when aero-towing, but depends if you have a nose hook or belly hook for a start. Some gliders even have wheels on the wingtips (like our Puchacz twins). But yes not a good habit to get into...
Thanks for these important aspects. Another aspect, I think the winchdriver was accellerating to hard at beginning. Only to win some more meters of altitude ;)
Good point also, thank you!
Why would that contribute to this particular accident? Contrary, accelerating too slow makes it more likely to drop a wing because you have no aileron control for a longer time. Thus the cross wind would have even more time to push the other wing up. Generally accelerating too hard is not good because of stress to the structure, the tail banging hard on the ground and the risk of rotating to full ascend attitude at way too low altitude. Sloppy acceleration is to be avoided equally. That was the reason for me to release while being on the ground once.
@@kaihorstmann2783 you are right. But between black and white, there is the colour of solution ;)
Plane with really long wings close to the ground had its wings touch the ground.
Yip pretty much!
Tldr
I think we can also think about a sensor based approach where you have two accelerometers at the wingtips, and if the difference in their acceleration exceeds some threshold, the winch is released automatically. We just need two sensors, some long signal wires, and a solenoid. should be easy to implement. Or we can just have an accelerometer and a gyroscope at the cockpit and calculate the wingtip acceleration.
Great info! 👍👍👍
Thanks for watching!
I have lost count of wing runners that dont run and will be letting them know in future. Many of the runners should know better too.
Yeah, not so critical for nose hook aero tows, but definitely critical for winch launching. Everything that can help should be done...
Crikey, I thought that was one of those r/c aeromodeler's gliders! I've done my share of wing running. The RAF insisted any newbie wing-runner ran behind someone else, "to get the feel" of what was involved, before having the instructor running as a backup on their first few launches. The NCO instructor would shout a deafening "RUN!!" in your ear if you weren't going fast enough, and you kept running I can tell you! This club, especially that individual, appears far too casual.
Yeah using a buddy to help train wing running sounds very sensible. Cheers
Years and years ago, learning to fly on ask-13, ka-8, as wing runner we were told to try to give the wing a push (up or down). Just open your fingers.
@@leodelange1 Wow! I'm amazed you were told to "give the wing a push up/down" when releasing it as a wing-runner 😳! Surely, doing anything that would override control of the pilot (without his knowledge) would be highly questionable, even endangering the aircraft, and leave the wing-runner liable if there were an accident? I'm amazed and would be most unhappy if my wing-runner did anything other than simply releasing the wing in a level orientation. (No offence to yourself, Leo, but this does sound a highly questionable instruction you received.)
I am not a glider pilot but a hang glider pilot with tow endorsement. looking at the video the final gotcher was he let the glider get into a lock-out situation and locked the glider out. In towing hang gliders we use a weak which has saved a good number of pilots including myself when the wind went Katabatic without me noticing.
Yeah all gliders winching have a weak link also. Not sure why it didn't break before it back released, but maybe the winch driver let the power off once he/she saw it was going badly
In initial phase there is a high acceleration pushing the pilot back in his seat, while in many cases release handle is in the front and it's hard to grab it under a g-load. Maybe a student-pilot was very little experienced and it took some time to react. Some pilots attach a piece of metal wire to the handle just to have it right next to the hand. In some gliders (jantars ) it's a very common practice even in towed launch as I've seen. I hope everyone was all right after the crash
Yes as mentioned you need to be careful not to accidentally release! But again I think if that happens it's not as bad as doing what these guys did :( Sorry I don't know the outcome for the pilots.
Adjusting your seat position so you can have easy access to the release handle comfortably is part of the ABCHAOTIC check.
Thanks for explaining why the door handle is at the opening side of every door! Joke aside - again, excellent video. The accident sequence looks very scary indeed...
Haha exactly, push doors on the outside :)
My mandatory comment to your videos, pretending I know what I'm talking about :P What's with these wing runners who don't actually run? I'm noticing it's a bit of a habit. Maybe that needs to be stressed a little more on training. I saw this ALMOST happening live once, and I believe it didn't happen, probably, only because the initial acceleration of the winch was slower than this one, allowing a little longer for the pilot to release. The glider did half a ground loop in that case, but it wasn't fast enough to become airborne. Is it possible that a gust helped it airborne early in this video as well? Crosswind gust, even worse? The rest of what I wanted to blabber about has been already raised :) Nice video. Do you usually push doors open with your pinky finger?
They really don't need to run that much, just not impart any moment to the wingtip, when they release and try to compensate for wind.
Haha yes that's how I always open doors :) And yes often wing runners don't need to run far, and a lot of them are older and can't actually run easily. It's also important to make sure they don't hold onto the wing and turn it. Basically, they do need a bit of training.
Interesting topic. Thank you.
Thanks MotorTranz!
There are more contributing safety measures. Winch drivers ought to be aware that when they see the rotations and look at the side of the airplane, they should immediately cut the power and apply brakes. Emergency procedures should be an important subject for winch training and exams. We regularly repeat this in safety briefings (as well as the measures mentioned here). If the winch driver had cut power earlier, this would possibly have ended less dramatically.
I don't even glide, interesting watch tho :D
Thanks I'm glad you think so! Cheers for watching
Totally agree. I was always taught to have one hand on the cable release during the launch to jettison the cable as required. Indeed on a pre solo check flight with the CFI and expecting a simulated cable break, I panicked and pulled the cable release at about 300 feet, completed a short circuit and landed expecting a ticking off. However the CFI congratulated me on recognising the winch speed wasn't fast enough and my decision to jetison early to abandon the launch. In hindsight it was clear he said that just to make he feel better! That was in a Slingsby Kirby Cadet Mk III. They flew like a brick and you constantly had to tap the altimeter throughout the flight as the needle had a tendency to stick. You never needed a yaw string as you got a face full of airflow if you used too much rudder!
As a once avid glider pilot, wing runner, winch operator, flight instructor. I always notices fairly heavy downward pressure on the wingtip during crosswinds even before movement with wings level. I always told people that there should be no pressure on the wingtip when you hold it before launch. If that means you have to hold it slightly out of the horizontal, do it; it gives the pilot more controllability after you let go of the tip. Especially with slow accel aerotows
Long time ago, I had been involved in exactly the same scenario, but as the winch operator. I agree with the conclusions regarding grass, wing runner and an immediate release by the pilot. It looks to me that the rope was not released by the pilot, but automatically after reaching the automatic release angle. It is very important, that the winch operator continues pulling until there is a release. If the pull force from the winch is removed prematurely, the upset of the glider would have increased dramatically, and it would have likely flipped on its back. From my incident I can tell you, it is the scariest moment you can encounter as a winch operator.
2:20 - Polish glider Jantar! Sweet! Greetings from Poland!
Hello from NZ! We have lots of polish gliders here. Our club has 2 Puchacz for example
Great video, very educational thanks. ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Thanks William! Glad it's useful.
Excellent instruction
Thank you Moira, much appreciated. Although note I can't give instruction over the internet, only analysis and my own thoughts. One problem is every country has their own training system, and they are all different...
Инструктор идиот недоученый. Два бала за взлет и ремонт планера за счёт его личных средств.
Great Video Safety first !!
Always!
You sound like a good instructor!
Aww shucks thanks! (cheque is in the mail)
Some years ago I had a plane tow from a field never been before. The wing runner told me, that he knows what to do and what not to do... and gave me push on the wingtip. Allways keep the hand on the releaseknob while starting!
Yeah that's the main lesson to take away here!
I learned in old T54 (?) Gliders with high wings ... so this was very interesting ...
Yeah less of a problem for high wing gliders, as you simply have more time to react!
I learned to fly a Blanik, 40 something years ago and from memory I'm sure I was told to use the rudder in this case and not ailerons. I think it was because of aileron drag and also the ailerons not having enough authority at such low speed. I could be wrong it was over 4 decades ago, oh and I had a cable break on my first solo right at 300 feet which was the decision point...try a modified short circuit landing or land straight ahead...I nearly bent the control column I pushed it forward so hard. Landed straight ahead no problems and then climbed out and had a bit of a think about it all.
Long grass plays merry hell with gliders that have fixed gear and shrouded wheel. The grass collects in the wheel shroud and compacts itself until friction of your tyre on the compacted grass emits a distinctive aroma of burning rubber.
Good point!
We have two runners for winch launches, as it mostly negates imparted moments from runners to the wing. For tows we use one runner.
Interesting! Thanks for sharing
@@PureGlide Love your videos. All the best from Czech Republic! :-)
Thanks, that would be something to try. Do you have videos with the "technique"?
@@brunotagliapietra6397 No, but I can film some during weekend. It is the same as one runner, you just have one on every wing.
Sounds like a bad idea to me. Better to train them to do it right.
Good one. In the US we are trained to always have your hand on the release on any launch.
I owned early model ASW 15, with an off center mounted CG hook. We are talking just few inches from the center line. It was the "widow maker' at my local airport, since without a competent wing runner, on initial roll, it would veer 10-20 deg to the right. Some wing runners would try to help and hold the left wing back, well that would make things even worse. To fly safely, even the small things have to be done correctly.
Yeah absolutely!
keeping the stick in the middle until an input is needed is also a good place to start, you can just about see some left input as the right aileron is pointing down on the edge of the shot at about the 3 second mark. Despite the best efforts of anyone on the wing they wouldnt have been able to stop it dropping, if anything it would have only delayed it by a few seconds when everything was that bit faster...
Yeah you might be right!