Empire of Dune: Indigeneity, U.S. Power and a Science Fiction Classic - A Talk by Daniel Immerwahr
A talk by Daniel Immerwahr on the historical, political, and biographical contexts of Frank Herbert's science-fiction classic Dune.
Frank Herbert's 1965 novel Dune is one of the best-selling and most influential science-fiction works of all time. Among historians, it's best known for introducing many readers to ecological thinking. But Dune was also about empire. Frank Herbert worked for some of the men who ran America's territorial empire. He also had important friendships with people from the Quileute community, a tribal nation in Western Washington. All of these influences flowed into his writing, inspiring Dune and other of his works. How can connecting these dots help us decode Dune?
Daniel Immerwahr is Associate Professor of History at Northwestern University. His first book, Thinking Small: The United States and the Lure of Community Development (2015), offers a critical account of grassroots development campaigns launched by the U.S. at home and abroad. His second book, How to Hide an Empire: A History of the Greater United States (2019), examines the history of the U.S. with its overseas territories at the center of the story. Immerwahr's writings have appeared in Dissent, Foreign Policy, The Guardian, Jacobin, The Nation, The New Republic, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and Slate.
This program was a co-production of Northwestern University’s Center for International & Area Studies and the Evanston Public Library.
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Me too, I didn't see this video was available until 2 days ago! WTF! I read Dune as a young teen, and had the great good fortune to meet Frank Herbert once. This talk by Daniel helps me to make sense of a few things that I've wondered about for several decades. All that remains is for both of the Quileute novels to be published together. A thousand thanks!
Wow, what was Frank Herbert like in person?? I'd love to hear your story... :)
@@j3ffn4v4rr0 Well, all I can say is that he was a gentleman, was very kind to chat with me privately, steered me away from the great questions I wanted to ask him, and instead described a Zen-like activity he practiced every day. In his case, it was hunting quail in the land behind his house with a pistol. He would saunter, alone, through the scrubland holding his handgun down by his side until a quail flushed from a shrub. "You don't think about anything," he said, "and when a quail comes up, you don't aim. You just point and shoot. Point and shoot." He demonstrated the technique, swiveling his body this way and that, bringing his hand up to point from from the hip in one smooth motion. It looked slow, but actually took only half a second or less. Researching a little on Google now, I see that quail hunting in this way was a practice of some of the Pacific coastal tribes. So thanks to this video -- and your question -- I can report that Frank Herbert held to what he had learned from the tribe he knew until the end of his life.
@@numbersix8919 Great story! Thanks so much for that wonderful vignette.
@@j3ffn4v4rr0 You are welcome. Thanks for getting me to look up quail hunting.
It's hard to not get carried away with a book report when Dune is the subject. Great job, I really enjoyed this talk.
This has clarified the origins of Dune in FH's mind for me. Thank you.
I'm really enjoying this man's talks.
... yes, Artful. Daniel is a very bright and enthusiastic young historian. He has a good voice, enguaging, with a personable manner of delivery. I've only heard a couple of his lectures, and I'm looking forward to hearing more.
I once heard that if an artist wants to be unkind, they will explain their work when asked.
Thank you for this article!
I read Sabres of Paradise, years ago, and it struck me that much of the language used by the Fremen is identical to that used by the Chechens during the Murid war. In this context the Empire is Tsarist Russia and the incredibly tough Fremen are the even more ridiculously tough Chechens.
Wow What a great Book Report! lol Thanks for doing this work!
This is a really great talk. Thanks for posting it. :-)
Keep in mind that those 2,000 odd pages span some 35,000 years. Side note: the theme of a noble and righteous cause descending into corruption through the greed of the religious/state bureaucracy is a little prophetic when applied to today.
Definitely the most important book I ever read, it really opened my eyes to deeper subjects like colonialism, religion, ecology, cults, philosophy and culture. I did a book report on it in 1999 when I was a freshmen in high school, it has always been in the back of mind all throughout my adulthood.
My Daddy introduced me to Science Fiction when I was a boy. I maintained a subscription to Analog for many years beginning in the late sixties. There had been so much hype (Hugo award and all) that I decided I should read Dune; I hated it and, in fact, I don't recall whether or not I ever finished it, too much science fantasy (SiFy) not enough science fiction (SF)! [Here we were 220-plus centuries into the future and we're still playing the same old imperial political games, ugh!]. I was unable to sit through Dune (the movie) nor any of the Star Wars movies either. While in the Navy in the early sixties, I was stationed in Taiwan and was able to see America's "hidden empire" up close and personal. My Republican "friends" are all incredulous over the concept ... LOL! Thank you for the book ... it was much needed!
The story about Indian Henry reminds me of the one about Pardot Kynes, as presented by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson
Excellent talk, this is the first time I got attached into a talk in this format, huge work, i've seen the movies, both the 80's film and this new one, i think probably that's why this came to me, it remind me inmensly to the middle east and colonialist dilemas more than to indigenous groups, but im inmensly greatfull for this sneak peak of reality and the backround of the author. I as a mayor in IR studies and politics got to extend some of my perspective with this, I am going to try to make contact with this proffessor eventually, great work.
Merci beaucoup, Mon. Daniel Immerwahr. Much food for thought. And I do have time for a complete re-read before Mon. Denis Villeneuve's version arrives in theaters. I read DUNE at age 15. It burst on me like a bomb, and I say that as a person who had already been ravished by Tolstoy. I was also in Arizona--so far north it was mostly the southern Utah canyonlands. So IMAGINE being surrounded by the vermillion cliffs, the sage plains, the drifts of dunes that changed every time a storm came through, and you may understand why, for the rest of my life, whenever I have been marooned somewhere above the Mason-Dixon line & freezing during winter--DUNE was always there to send me into the cocoon of warmth I craved. Books change every time we read them--because we, the readers, have changed. The nice thing about DUNE (the first book particularly) is that, like a good symphony or a Van Gogh or any film by Wong Kar-Wai, there is always more to discover. I am sure that Frank and Beverly are happy, wherever they are beyond the Rainbow Bridge.
Excellent poli sci background breakdown. Yes, Brian Herbert completed Dune 7. Using the original notes. A worthy end ? That connects to the prequels ...
So when's part two, the analysis of the mysticism, religion and economics in dune coming out. This is a level one analysis of power dynamics, well done but it's missing a lot of what interests people in dune.
Religion in the worship of Shai Halud and Kynes, mysticism in the Benegesirit Mothers, Spice, the most valuable substance in the Imperium, can only be mined on Dune, Imperial commerce require the spice. so there's your economics.
But this guy’s specialty is power dynamics and imperialism. He wrote a book about it.
In Martin, Herbert sees the Imperial Planetologist Liet Kynes, right?!
Duuuuude...
This was super fascinating to watch. I love the Dune series (especially the last three books) but I always took away a very different message from what is discussed here. That is probably due in large part to the fact that I came into the books with a fairly left leaning world view so I am sure that skewed my interpretation of the books. For instance I've always seen Paul as more of a warning about the dangers of white saviors and charismatic leaders (As I see it Paul is directly responsible for the jihad that killed billions and didn't necessarily make the galaxy a better place).
Arguably the jihadis were already in place on Dune. The ancient native civilization of Fremen, trafficking in spice (for money and "high on their own supply!"); making steadily growing ecological improvements and saving water against the day they took the planet "Arrakis" back from the Imperial Govenors, the Harkonnen, for themselves and their God the sand Worms.
By the time I read the third book I was soured on the whole Dune thing, though I still have nostalgia for Dune. I lean more towards the Left myself, and your interpretation resonated more with me. I had no idea Herbert was a right-winger. But I just did not see a lot of politics in that book ... but I was in high-school at the time. A lot of interesting information, and speculation. I didn't see Star Wars as influenced by Dune at all, except for the mention of spice traders with was more of a nod, and borrowing like everything in Star Wars was.
@@ktucker4717 When I actually thought about the possibility of a sandworm the very idea is so ridiculous, our impossible fantasy. Now I would probably classify Dune as closest to Game Of Thrones than anything else.
I haven't watched the video yet but your interpretation of Paul is correct. In an interview given shortly after Dunes release, Herbert himself said he wrote Dune as a warning to charismatic leaders. He said leaders should come with a warning label: "May be dangerous to your health."
Yeah but you have to read past the first book!! Lol he warns against every embedded institution from religion to politics!!
I think he missed a bit about Paul's role. He didn't abandon his role or position. He actually asserted his position and birthright with the help of the Fremen.
Why didn't I see this before? I should have been here since a couple of weeks!
His wife was a writer I'm positive she contributed to his writing in dune!!!
...and yet, it’s not until you read the final two novels that you get the true breadth of his vision. I have a niggling hunch that his late wife might have been the real author, lol? Just a few hints plus the leading role that women take and the extraordinary characterisation presented of Odrade and her council members; all of those marvellous female roles. Wonderfully rich and deep. Not so surprising about his conservatism when you pause to consider the unsentimental way in which the common folk are usually dispatched in his fiction. A fixation with torture is another give away. I imagine that more than a few neo-cons are numbered among his fan base and I wouldn’t be shocked to find his attitudes at work influencing some ‘types’ of power wielders.
Conservatives, the thoughtful ones, are forced into their positions by pessimism about human nature and/or the human condition. It's quite laudable in its way, because it is based in the love of humanity (mixed always with some distrust). Without any spoilers, Paul's plan for humanity involves changing the human condition itself. (I'm not a political conservative, but I certainly can understand their pessimism.)
You could just do some research. Herbert has credited his wife with many things including taking care of the family to give him time to write and providing feedback back and direction for his female characters in particular but also his writing in general.
@@GomJabbar11 fair comment. Like I said, just a hunch. But I also remember a passage in the Dune series where a male character, credited with some invention or other (don’t recall?) which, in truth, was his wife’s achievement. The man couldn’t bare the secret shame and the guilt which, in the end destroyed him. I expect you are right though.
@@thruknobulaxii2020 Sorry I guess I took your comment as a jab against someone who actually did give credit and praised his wife for her help. And luckily we got some higher quality female characters in the male dominated world of scifi.
@@GomJabbar11 No sweat. I also enjoyed those characters hugely and trust that I learned a good deal from them. 🤓.I’m currently trying to develop ‘Prose’. That is; the ability to pitch my text messages with such a level of command that the recipient obeys without thinking. What d’ya reckon… do I have a shot? 😂 😂
Soul Catcher is very interesting.
Not enough fingers and toes to count how many times I've read the whole series.
fishdude666ify: I'm with you, dude!
Very interesting lecture. Is there any evidence you are aware of to suggest that Herbert was familiar with either MacKinder (the father of geopolitical theory) or von Clausewitz? I mention the latter as on a recent re-read I was struck by a series of triadic power relationships (e.g. the Landsraat, the Emperor and the Navigation Guild, but also the interrelations between Houses Corrino, Atreides and Harkonnen, and in terms of the various enhancements and abilities the spice brings, the Mentats, Bene Gesserit and the Guild Navigators) the text contains.
bluefarie10: THAT is a very interesting question. I had always interpreted the "triangular" nature of so many of the forces as being either 1) a backhanded reference to the Triune God embraced by many Christians, or 2) basic strategic narrowing for plot purposes (possibly based on history) because triangles are notoriously tricky--ever been in one? The interpersonal, very small-scale triangle is usually the only type people have ever experienced personally. I do not recall it being terribly pleasant.
Both Paul and Duke Leto are described as having "olive" skin in the book, for whatever that is worth. Moreover, Paul Atredies isn't the hero of the Dune. To the degree that there is any hero, it is Duncan Idaho and Murbella.
Yeah exactly listening to dumb people treat it as just another shallow book is frustrating!! In children of dune Leto quotes a French cartoon I was able to find it from like 1580 it was real not shallow writing!! Lol
Is Keynes (sp) a. stand in for Hebert?
Herbert says Liet Kynes is a stand in for western man as a whole.
I have tons of dune related content in my history. The Algorithm should have pushed this up my nose ages ago. I've heard much about Herbert's ecological work, but much less about his political history. This is interesting context.
Good job for once yt algorithm
The Dune saga are a cyclical tale of humanity - as far as we know, and extrapolated... More than that, they are also a tragedy about the Atreides family and lienage as a whole. Part of me thinks this is why their lieage in the lore is Greek as an homage (Atreus, father of Agamemnon and Menelaos).
I thought the Emperor represented France and the UN.
Dune was written as a warning about charismatic leaders religions and governments!!!!
FH really roasted religions in all forms in the due saga, he also showed some disdain about constitutionalism for he believed state could not handle vastly dynamic realities with “dead” texts, which all made me feel he was pretty liberal maybe somewhat anarchic.
Not true he showed a dangerous figurehead that didn't have respect for constitution
Doesn't Paul Atredies map on to people like Richard Burton and E. T. Lawrence more than Frank Herbert?
paul is not hero
"Fremen" isn't pronounced free'men?
When you're the reader, you help build the world. Your pronunciations are just that -- yours. Enjoy!
@@GGirl99 not that one lol
I'm positive that's how Herbert got the name to project that idea Frank's wife was a writer and I'm positive she contributed to his series!!
The book is about the danger of imperialism.
it would be dishonest of him to make the indigenous character the protagonist as he is not that. He showed the extent of his depth to the indigenous plight and persona.
1. An indigenous character is not the protagonist and 2. The idea that an author needs to be the character he is writing is completely ridiculous You clearly haven't read the book
A reality that Herbert had lived with and seen for himself!
a reality he chose to immerse himself in yet he was always an outsider. He could at any moment leave or be forced away and would know that another reality which he could assimilate too was there. As much as we may empathize and understand another plight we are still outsiders. That is the great trick anglo Europeans play on themselves. Though to their credit many beautiful things have come from it.
@@humanoid9787 no i havent read the book but i don't need to comment on where our highest art comes from. You can write about anything and anyone, what im referring to is the quality, truth and spirit there in. I could know you for all my life and would still not hit on your deepest truths or understand where they are. its like aiming at a target, and some targets have yet to be hit by art.
54:39 - - Paul goes from lovely, to Hitler ............ ....... So... Basically ....... 2021 on ?
What the hell was Star Trek all about also these globe trekkers going around the Earth advertising other people's countries not yet taken by billionaire dogs⛷️🤺🏇
Wow, second talk I've seen by Immerwahr, and his ability to take information and bend it to conform to his world view is stunning. First a lingual point - the term indigenous is used incorrectly in too many discussions these days. Indigenous means naturally occurring. The only place there are indigenous people is Africa; everywhere else they are aboriginal or other. Likewise in the Dune universe, I assume we accept that the populations on all the planets originated from Earth, so they can only be aboriginal or others on these fictional planets. I think aboriginal is avoided for two reasons: (1) people want to give the aboriginal people some kind of divine right of existence in their conflicts with later arriving cultures, and (2) many perceive the term aboriginal to have a negative connotation. That out of the way, I would postulate that Immerwahr is overthinking his analysis, which is necessary to make his conclusions fit his ideology. Its seems rather simple to me - Herbert says over and over again that power corrupts. Harkkonens had it and they were; Leto struggled with it before his death; Paul rose to power and became corrupt; the Fremen got it and they changed their world, apparently for the worse. I think Herbert's real world inspiration from La Push is not about right or left, but rather right and wrong, and the powerful US government treating weaker parties unfairly. It seems to follow logically that Herbert would be more right than left, since progressives want to give massive power to the government to control not only individuals actions, but as we see today, their thoughts. Likewise Immerwahr confuses the movie-going public's negative reactions to "empires" as contradicting his perception of American empire, when the reaction is again more basic - distrust of a powerful government. Immerwahr's obsession with American empire, relatively minor in respect to European efforts of previous centuries, warps his conclusions about motivations. The US imperial actions of the early 20th century had a completely different focus than European empires. Rather than gain territory and exploit it for commercial purposes, US efforts were aimed at projecting military might as the US came to understand itself as a world power (prior guano campaigns accepted and excepted). In the cases of Cuba and the Philippines, the US could not get those countries off their hands fast enough. Guam fits the mold perfectly, the US wanted and wants it for it's strategic military use. And in these territories, the majority of citizens are content to be US territories. As a further example of Immerwahr's bias, he has stated that the reason the US came to the aid of Europe first in WW2 is that it was full of white people; Hawaii had less; the Philippines had the least. The obvious truth is that Nazi Germany presented the greatest immediate threat to North America, that Hawaii was strategic and relatively close to the US but Japan could only project it's power so far, and the Philipines were on the other side of the world. If Immerwahr's values were used to form strategy in WW2, the Third Reich might still be in power in Europe.
I don't think Leto struggled with power. He was the archetype of a just and competent leader.
@@Richard0292 Leto is not just but his goal overshadows things like flogging the ambasador on trumped up charges or having Moneo kill Malky. Yes he does struggle with power Hwi causes him to contemplate ditching his plan and goal after all the suffering he has caused to set everything in place. He won't let Hwi and Duncan be together because he needs Sciona and Duncan to be together. That is why Hwi dies with him. Leto is not allowed to ditch his plan because he has made a pact with one of his inner voices to protect him from possesion and if he breaks the pact he will lose protection and the plan and Hwi.
@@GomJabbar11 He meant Duke Leto Atriedes, Paul's father
@@agluebottle Thanks
@@GomJabbar11 You're talking about Leto (3rd, technically) but I believe the commenter you're replying to was referring to Paul's father, Leto.
I think I read Dune when I was about 14 or 15. I thought it was great. I kind of felt that rather than being inspired by Dune with respect to Star Wars it was just another factor that he tried to suck in, i.e. steal, to make Star Wars seem to have more depth than it did ... in the original movies. Looking back at Star Wars it hardly had the gravitas Dune did, and in fact to use gravitas and Star Wars in the same sentence is a big mistake. Looking back at Dune at this point, having read the book, and about 3 of the really disappointing sequels so bad that I blotted them out of my mind and can barely remember them, Dune was not as good as it seemed - but then again neither was Stranger In A Strange Land, which I read at about the same time and reread, or heard in audiobook format a few years back. In fact I would not technically call Dune science fiction these days because of its ESP aspects, the spice allowing mutated beings to fold space is pure magic and not something I would normally be interested in any more than the Hobbit or Lord of The Rings, as not being science fiction. Dune is more of an epic fantasy with science fiction aspects. This video was suggested to me after watching the How To Hide An Empire video which is one of the best things I've seen on KZhead. Suffice it to say, I don't think Dune deserves so much thought ... certainly the movies do not ... ugh! ;-)
Yo work on the reading comperhension. Never does it say that spice lets you fold space. It only allows them to plot a safe path. Dune might be a bit much for you.
@@GomJabbar11 Reality seems like it might be a bit much for you, not to mention being a tolerant polite human being.
@@justgivemethetruth ugh. If you want to shit on Dune don't get upset when you get shit on. Especially if your going to be lazy and get facts wrong that you then use to make dumb points. ESP is a problem of so much of the scifi of that time because Campbell was pushing it on all the writers he was associated with and it was probably helping him sell magazines at the time. Thankfully Herbert did his best to minimized it, he mentions it as being his biggest mistake, and it only comes out in full force in a hive colony organism and if I remember correctly it was just to set up a situation where the self could fragment and be at cross purposes with itself
DONALD DUCK ,DONALD TRUMP..
the 1984 version is the only version. everything else is clatter.
WartimeConsigliere: On the very narrow basis of production design, I agree with you totally. The portrayal of the Baron, however, is a travesty of monumental proportions--the actor's performance is wonderful, but the character is completely, totally, and forever wrong, wrong, wrong.
the algorithm giving me confounded regressives 🤣🤡
The part of this that ruins it all is the astonishment with which Mr. Immerwahr and the questioner are shocked that someone can be libertarian/conservative and, gasp, care about people.
These people are ideologues. All they are doing is inserting their bias anywhere they can make it fit
Low T symptoms
‘Star Wars, i discovered, was really about Vietnam’ that statement is laugh out loud preposterous.
Lucus was inspired by the struggles of the Vietnamese against the Americans when making Star Wars. The underdog, technology inferior Rebels taking on the massive, galactic sprawling, all powerful Empire.
Why is it preposterous, considering Lucas' own statements?
I was surprised at how a 90 minute Video about one of the best books ever could be so boring. And I generally love history. Can watch documentaries all day long.
an artists cannot grasp what he is not. to believe you can is to accept a delusion as truth, and that is unacceptable