Leopard 2 Gunner: Thermal Sights Pros & Cons
In this video I interview a former Leopard 2A6 / A7 gunner about thermal sights, particularly his experience with WBG-X and Attica. Additionally, we also talk about Russian thermal sights, strength and limitations of thermal sights, how spotting is done in a tank, the different roles, identification, recognition and detection, etc.
Cover: T-72B1 main battle tank, Military-technical forum ARMY-2017 - Demonstration part 1, modified by vonKickass, original here: www.vitalykuzmin.net/Military...
Disclaimer in 2018, 2019 & 2020 I was invited by the Panzermuseum Munster.
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00:00 Intro
00:25 Leopard 2 Thermal worse than T-62s?
01:47 WBG-X replaced? Differences to Attica?
03:50 Detection vs Recognition vs Identification
04:37 Leopard 2 Variants in Ukraine - Thermal Sight difference Leopard 2A4 and 2A6?
06:48 Spotting Drones with Thermals?
08:38 S-Pattern Scanning?
09:41 Thermal Sights the Limitations?
11:45 Eye Fatigue?
13:16 Thermal Blankets as a Counter-Measure?
16:22 Looking for Spots?
17:47 Mis-Identification Incidents?
19:11 Drop-In Thermal Sights?
21:22 Hunter-Killer Capability?
#ThermalSights #Tanks #leopard2a6
Correction(?)/Clarification: The Marder IFV was not equipped/upgraded with Attica Thermal Imaging Systems but Saphir, the contract for this was signed in 2020. Although Tobias experience with the Marder was before 2020, so we assume that he likely saw a test variant, was misinformed or maybe it is a memory error. Although, considering that Tobias used the WBG-X on the Leopard 2 at that time, I doubt he confused a WBG-X on a Marder with something else. Discussion with sources: twitter.com/bttr01438851/status/1657126057630216195
GEIL
With respect to the drone detection comment, I think there is a point being missed. I don't know about German doctrine, but in ye olden dayes, US tank platoons used to designate an air guard. We've gone away from it, but have started to look at the idea again given recent observations. On a modern tank platoon with eight thermals, I would submit that it would be acceptable for one of the eight to scan horizon and up instead of near to horizon, leaving seven to cover ground based threats. Although escorting AA vehicles would indeed be a better solution, we don't currently have enough of them, and even in the days of M163 or Chapparal, tank platoons still maintained an air guard indicating that air defense systems weren't the be all and end all of the topic.
In me old days (early to mid 90s) in my outfit (PzAufklL-Btl 11) it was part of the SOP to name a loader in a tank per recce troop (3 in a troop) as an air guard. Don‘t know what the comrades learn nowadays as I retired some 8 years ago.
Wait I never know that SPAA move with armoured or tanks unit..I thought they are mostly use as SAM and Radar protector from enemy plane..can anyone explain how SPAA is use nowadays ?
I note the General Dynamics XM-1 concept tank had a 30mm secondary gun. This would presumably allow air burst rounds and some kind of infrared , passive and active MMW radar search for drones. Also likely a good way to predetonate ERA and shred enemy optics.
how good would RCWS work as CIWS for detecting and shooting down drones? maybe even totally autonomous?
@@Spartaner251 Yeah, i think Chieftain was reffering to CROWS thermal camera, which could be used against drones quite effectively, as 50cal has a nice range and is mounted to engage such targets.
Back in 1995 when I was a Leo 1 A5 commander we used the same technich with switching. We experienced that a barrel (cold) was invisible on the thermals but visible on the normal sight. And as I remember it you always har to adjust the contrast depend on distance on the thermal. When we later were training on the leo 2. We used the comander started looking for more targets while the gunner angaged the first aquired target.
Hunter kill system det virker bare
With spotting drones with thermal imaging, it's well worth noting that the sky is much colder than you might think - on a clear day it will read at least -25C, possibly down to -35C if it's very low humidity. Low clouds will warm its apparent temperature up to more like freezing, but that's still a very healthy margin for spotting drones which will be (what with hot motors, warm battery packs, electronics and so-on) have visible components in the 30-100C range.
Sounds like you found the best person to talk about this. Well done
Thx to the anonymous Tank commander who made this video possible. It was especially interesting because so far I havent seen much hard data which allowes comparisons of thermal sight systems. Some Milwtitter userser and KZheadrs use pixel numbers (I think), but I have never come across numbers for any of those. It is also interesting how ARMA3 thermals seem to capture reality quite well. Because there you also need to switch between channels to get the full picture :) And finally it is shame I hadnt started my channel in 2019, because I didnt film anything at the last Stahl auf der Heide.
Hope to meet y'all at "Stahl auf der Heide 2024" then, hope the Panzermuseum is able to stick to their plans :) Säbelzahnmöwe has a great KZhead channel as well btw., I can highly recommend it - if you speak German or like subtitles, that is. Grüße aus Kanada!
@@chrissmith1094 thank you Chris 🙂 that would be lovely 🙂👍
its the type of and number of detectors in the detector array that determines thermal image resolution not the number of pixels
Amazing clarity! Like to hear more interviews with him!
The 'generation' of a thermal sight just means the technology of the image sensor, so for example CMOS instead of CCD,.. it does nor say ANYTHING about things like focal lengh, and overall quality of the optics, so a thermal sight of first Gen can still be of better optics quality and so brightness, magnification,.. but maybe lacks somewhat in contrast, signal-to-noise ratio,...
Very nice video, thanks for the detailed insights!
Interessante Einblicke, vielen Dank.
awesome freaking video didnt even notice the time passing
Very interesting insights, thank you.
Very informative. Thank you.
i think the same tank commander did a video with Redeffect he also made an interview with an german tanker and he sounds similar to the guy in the video
Really interesting video! Good insight on different thermal sights, and their advantages and disadvantages compared to optical sights. Also, one thing, I think it's noteworthy that most T-62Ms we have seen in Ukraine are not the obr. 2022 variant and don't actually have a 1PN96MT-02 or any sort of thermal sight.
Zehr gute! Danke!
23:08 "Staying on the optics all the time is tiring." The Bundeswehr never met a gamer. 😎
Plot twist, he is a gamer.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized would that also apply to t72 B3 Gunner since thermals are displayed in a monitor instead of an eye piece or scope
"emergency blankets used to cover up thermal radiation (IR-C)" when you use the silver side towards yourself as an emitter of radiation, the golden side should still provide a certain degree of reflection, so "in theory" it would be interesting to use a short pulse of near-IR light (IR-LEDs for your PI-Noir) and perhaps you can observe a nice reflection even with your smartphone camera in night shot mode.
You can just use the thermal blanket under camo net to make sure its not demasking the vehicle.
Thank you gentlemen, for an excellent video. The discussion of thermal blankets misses a critical point. The special paint that we used on our NZDF vehicles back when I was young-and not creaky-is designed to confuse ground radar. The idea is, that: you know it is not a tree BUT you do not know what it actually is. A sneaky person could grab some scrap metal, spray it with the special military touch-up paint and position it to look like a vehicle, a gun or an armoured vehicle; etcetera. As a former sapper, I would remind everyone that our Corps specialty of camouflage is … the art of deception. Thermal blankets are used as part of a camouflage scheme. You are not talking about a single tank or troop/squadron of tanks. You could even create deliberate decoy tracks through the middle of a field, in order to divert attention from your positions. Major issues, in regard to visibility of personal kit, at night-apart from inappropriate private purchases-are: ironed creases in clothing AND use of modern laundry detergents that contain UV brighteners.
I guess we can implement some sort of combine view, that will draw outline on blob of interest on day sight, and the computer automatically assign a track number to them?
What you mean?
@@gerfand if the IR sensor detects something it highlights the heat source in the normal day light sight. so you don't have to switch beween your sensors all the time. kind of sensor fusion like on modern figher jets.
@@Spartaner251 okay, well I was thinking of something that would need AI or something but I don't like those because it can give false positives
Can u please do a video on ww1 eastern front tactics
If your interested in WW1. I'd highly recommend 'The Great War' Channel. They have Videos on everything from Tactics to weapons, over the homefront and propaganda. Along with videos on individual Nations and notable persons. And of course their Flagship series, a Realtime week by week rundown of the war, 100 years after the fact. www.youtube.com/@TheGreatWar The same people Run a channel with the same concept, but for WW2.
Rush the enemy trench and achieve nothing but losses or gain 5 meters jkjk
I would, like to point out that commanders in semi modern Russian tanks have access to commander controls that allows full control of the weapon systems from traverse, elevation, reload, lasing as well as shell type loaded on top of the ''hunterkiller'' with the TKN-3. It's not a full ''joystick'' system but a ''thumbstick'' like in a gaming console. Commander also has the same display as the gunner that repeats what the main sight is seing.
How do you know that? Donitz is a navy guy. Or do you have boat tanks?
Nein, es ist keine echte Jäger-Killer-Fähigkeit. Dafür benötigen Sie ein stabilisiertes Panoramavisier mit Laser-Entfernungsmesser und Zoom, wie es bei westlichen Panzern der Fall ist.
@@mac2857 It's a response to the last part of the video where some people may assume that Russian tank commanders do not have any control of the weapon systems. True hunter killer capabilities on soviet tanks appeared in the 70s and 80s with the TKN-4 on the T-80s and T-64s which is 2 axis stabilized and has override integrated.
@@stc3145The inside of Russian tanks are visible, there are many videos of captured tanks or Russians using them.
@@mac2857 chieftain disagrees. And why would you need a Thermal sight, its not required for spotting. That and Laser range finder are nice, but you just need to spot and aquire the target for the gunner, not shoot for him, his job is that, he has the tools at his disposal
Why were sparks coming from the side of the tank by the road wheels at 14:50 ???
nice catch, I think that is just some white "stuff" (styrofoam?) that got into the tracks, clearly not sparks.
And what about tank indirect fire?
6:48 you should have clarified what type of drone system you were speaking about here. Are you talking about MQ1 predators/MQ-9 Reapers or just combat UAV for pure scouting in a forward lookout manner? You are not gonna thermal a MQ UCAV. Flight operational ceiling is 7.5 kilometers. (25000 ft.) I could see it spotting tiny recon drones though.
22:00 Already in the 1980s, the Canadian Army Trophy (CAT) was designed in such a way that only teams that mastered the hunter-killer cooperation within the team could achieve the top scores.
Future tanks will need an infrared search and track system to combat drones.
8:20 what... is that?
well, 1PN96MT-02 uses uncooled sensor, therefore its sensitivity is not that good actually. 1.gen thermals with cooled sensor will have better sensitivity despite lower resolution..
I want asking Sir, if you dont mind, If in case gen 1 thermal have zoom a lot better than gen 3 thermal. Which one is better?
@@dernadaarmando2948 Its about sensor sensitivity. zoom alone is not that important, quality of resulting image is.. you typically have 5x and 12x zoom, while some systems can do 50x digital zoom. but if that picture is provided by uncooled sensor, resulting image quality is bad and its not possible to identify what you are actually looking at. there are quite decent gen1 thermals that can challenge gen2 in terms of quality. gen 3 is typically way better than previous generations though. russians only have gen2, as they use licensed French gen2 thermals, or their own uncooled knockoffs like mentioned 1PN96MT-02
@@JaM-R2TR4 Oh i udnerstand, what a very nice information,, Thank you so very much Sir
Ist das Ketti?
Nein, Ketti ist soweit ich weiß Panzergrenadier.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Der kämpft ja bekanntlich auch mit Kette und nicht in Kette
Canada has fitted the Attica sights, they are on the tanks we sent to Ukraine. I’m not sure about other countries.
They are not on the tanks going to Ukraine. The ATTICA is only fitted in Leopard 2A4M
Putin be like : Write that down!Write that down!
You don't need to always "disclose" that you were invited to the museum. I really don't get why you just don't put it in the description or a pinned comment. The disclosure isn't necessary.
Yeah man, tell me about retarded Austrian laws. Show me the legal documents or fuck off. Do you think I like doing that shit?
Unless a 3rd party checks it, it have been proven time & time again RUSSIANS LIE LIE LIE about the quality & quantity of the their gear.
Yes and the west never lies especially on very important matters like WMDs in Iraq
@woodzwalk except Sadam DID GAS THE KURDS, repeatedly, fucko. So at some point he die have and use them.
@@woodzwalk we don't Issue TRASH to our troops. No cardboard trash or rusted ammo & weapons.
Ask Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq vets how good Russian gear is. Cope better.
@@Evan-iq8hd Different time. It was in the 1980s when western military technology really left the soviet counterparts in the dust. The soviets knew that and tried to compete in the arms race but ultimately went bankrupt.
Saying both sights are similar and that the 1pn69 is a cheap mass production is being a bit disingenuous and telling halve truths. The Russian sight is comparable only in maximum detection range however what the video glosses over is 1pn69 is a generation 2 sight and has much better quality and better PID capabilities. The sight yes is made for mass production but they effectively just made a cheaper low cost gen 2 sight. Also WBX belongs to the first generation of tank thermal sights from the late 70's so it's detection is on par with M60A3 TTS
It’s funny because ‘they’re similar’ and ‘one is cheap mass production’ are contradictory statements You can’t grind something down for cheap mass production and make it similar at the same time, that’s the point of making it cheap
@@looinrimsHow is that contradictory? One is a 2nd gen sight, the other is a 1st gen sight. Saying they are similar based on detection range is only a half truth.
@@looinrims I disagree with this statement, WGB-x is a 1st generation system, probably cryo cooled sensor, now my Google Fu is a little weak but 1pn69 may be a 2nd Gen sight , not cryo cooled , but you are engineering to the bleeding edge, but just to get comparable performance to 1st gen systems, but cheaper.
@@voidtempering8700 it’s more so a blanket criticism of the statement, regardless of the subject
@@r.gilman4261 yeah, Those sights for T62 are there for. Cheap sake, they are indeed better than first Gen, but only because they are second Gen, otherwise its not comparable to in generation system
Leopard will help Ukraine 🇺🇦
if you can see the target, the target can see you
But at nigth that is only rigth if he has the same as you. If you have thermal and he has nothing or even old IR Then you will shot first
Nonsense
Snipers: “hahahahahahhaha”
What a load of vapid BS. This has never been true since the dawn of man.
Oh you sweet summer child.
Soviet Tank Ammo rack=Helicopter. German Tank Ammo rack=Spaceshuttle to Mars.