This episode brought to you by Bowers & Wilkins
www.bowerswilkins.com/
🎥 Camera: John Darko / Olaf von Voss
🎬 Editor: John Darko
🌈 Colour: Olaf von Voss
🕺🏻 Motion GFX: John Darko
💰 Ad segment: Jana Dagdagan
🎵 Song IDs? Playlists of all music heard in this video - and other videos - can be found on PATREON: / johndarko
👉 As seen in this video...
Room treatment by Vicoustic
📖 vicoustic.com/
Umik-1 room measurement microphone
🛒 amzn.to/42kiOyF
Room EQ Wizard
📖 www.roomeqwizard.com/
GoldenEar T66
📖 darko.audio/2024/01/in-lisbon...
Klipsch Forte IV
🛒 howl.me/cimB6UfWWkx
Cables and power products by AudioQuest
🛒 howl.me/ckbW8ZBoZAg
Hi-fi furniture and speaker stands by Solid Steel
🛒 howl.me/ckbW9947Hdi
Darko.Audio may earn a small commission from items purchased via affiliate links, which are indicated with a '🛒'.
#roomacoustics #hifi #audio
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"The ENEMY of GREAT HI-FI SOUND lives in plain sight" I know, but she won't move out!
You made me spit out my whiskey laughing at your comment! 🧐
Good one.
😂😂😂 mine would be "The enemy of great HiFi sound lives in plain sight" I know but they're my kids and I love them
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Absolutely, 100%, yes - I'm amazed how many times I see people with super expensive systems playing them in rooms furnished like prison cells.
Ive seen a video of one guy with a super nice rig, drum kit right between the speakers 🤦🏻♂️ whats the point?
Its gear lust
As a Mastering Engineer, I can't help but laugh when I see $50,000+ speakers sitting in a room with little to no acoustic treatment. When an ME is budgeting for a room, we'd typically spend something like 50% of our budget on the room acoustics, 30% on monitors/speakers, and 20% on everything else (DAC, amp [if using passive monitors], desk, computer, gear, etc.)
Haha, Good one 😀
The only exception to this are those super expensive omnidirectional speakers that actually sound BETTER in rooms with tons of reflections.
4:37 JD - "Not that the rug really does very much" The Dude - " It (the rug) really tied the room together." 😂
😄😄😄 Didn't expect that, laughed a lot 😄
Just don't let someone pee on it.
If you know then you know 😂
I'm off to the cash machine....
Remember folks! A hairpiece really improves the sound.
Put 8 panels at the primary reflection points (sidewalls near and far, ceiling, and front wall), centered at ear level. Mind blowing improvement in every way. $500 DIY, took my system to a whole other dimension. 30 years in the hobby, never knew this kind of sound was possible.
Great to hear that DIY conditioning works.
Did you treat the rear reflections or prefer traps? (I.e. choosing to include the back wall as a part of the sound for bass purposes by allowing different stand-off distance)
Marshall this is wild! You singularly have motivated me to hop on this NOW. I truly was shocked at John saying he spent 7k, regardless if it's CAD, USD, euros... Did you DIY?
I skipped the rear wall because it's far enough behind the listening position that reflections are attenuated by distance. I doubt panels there would hurt, but i didn't bother. I moved the speakers fairly close to the front wall to raise SBIR frequency to a treatable level with 4" panels on the front and 2" elsewhere. 2'x4' Owens Corning 703 with cheap dyed burlap glued with 3m 77, and rotofast mounting anchors. I did my layout in cad, but the old mirror trick surely suffices. The overall effect is profound. Everything sounds so vivid and full of life. Imaging is unreal. Would recommend to anyone whose setup includes a "sweet spot".
I basically did the same, 6 panels 2’x 4’ in size, transformed my room. Best money spent. 👍
Yes. Probably most underrated part of hifi. I did our bedroom to my wife's tastes and now she is begging me to do the entire house. With 3 kids and screaming and crying she says ut makes the house feel calm and relaxed with less ambient echo.
It’s clear to me that the room is the most important part of a system. Unfortunately, room treatments don’t get much attention is because they are far harder to sell than a piece of HiFi gear. There’s nothing like a shiny new amplifier or beautiful set of speakers to get the shopping juices flowing. Room treatments just seem so… un fun. Plus there’s the partner factor. Plus aesthetic considerations, plus, when done properly it’s a bit pricey for many people.
True. Fortunately (in this case), she left, so it's time to start saving up for room treatment.. But yeah, speakers look great (my sub does too), but room treatments... Hmm..
They've started to sell acoustic panels with artwork printed on them 👉🏻👉🏻
thats why recording studios are usually located in swimming pools and raquetball couts.
@@auroragoose3414indeed. I bought 3 from AkuArt here in Copenhagen
"Partner factor", yup. I looked at his room once modified and immediately thought, "he's a bachelor."
Clapped. Saved 5000 in room treatment. Thanks John.
This is the reason why I switched to headphones.
But eating and watching with others is shit
Drastically increasing your chances of going deaf.
Sound travels about 1130 ft per second or about 345 metres, so the sound you hear a full second after the clap has travelled around the room 345 metres. In a room 7m x 4m, that is a lot of bounces.
Years back I read an article in a 1979 audio magazine, Complete Buyers Guide to Stereo/Hifi Equipment, about room/speaker interface. Nice to see someone nowadays talking about this problem. Room dimensions and furnishings can greatly effect sound. Standing waves and room nodes can play havoc with the best quality audio components. Nicely explained.
Wonderful video, John. Thank you for sharing.
Great video, John. More videos like this, learned a great deal from this one.
Incredibly important subject for audiophiles, no so much for equipment manufacturers! Thank you for posting.
Your videos are on another level John, well done mate and kudos to Olaf for always taking great shots!
Absolutely true! I just finished treating my room. I started by installing floor to ceiling bass traps in the corners behind the main speakers. I then added 32 square feet of absorption at the points of first reflection. The results are GREATER THAN ANY HARDWARE UPGRADE I'VE MADE. Entirely positive. I can continue to upgrade my hardware, but the treatment will improve it all.
Good stuff. John! I’ve been drooling over speakers and turntables, and even gotten my wife’s go ahead on a pair of Klipsch Forte IVs, but, then started “reflecting” (groan) on how I have been enjoying my current system best in nearfield configuration, and changed my mind. Room treatment is now at the top of my System Development Plan! 🎉
I completely agree with Jon here, upgrading the room is the single biggest improvement you can bring to your setup. However you genuinely can do a lot of it through creative and thoughtful decor. I had a similar sounding room and an absolute interdiction to hanging lots of acoustic panels everywhere. Plus I am a little wary of fire hazard (less of an issue if you live with paper and wood walls and ceilings I guess because that will all go up in 20 seconds anyway, but I'm in an older brick and mortar building with concrete slab floors so it won't burn as easily but by the same token it's acoustics are pretty dire). The snooker analogy is good. Also damping first order reflections, if you do it well, is enough. If a 50db sound can drop to 35db after the first order reflection you really don't need to worry that much about second and third and fifteenth order. By the way, frequency does matter. a 300Hz sound has a 1 metre wave length. a 3000 Hz sound is just 11cm and a 100 Hz is over 3 meters. These waves will reflect very differently from one another, especially in relation to how the reflected waves interact with the primary waves as they reach you. Peaks and troughs. You could be seated at a point where some frequencies are quieter and other more amplified hence part of room treatment has to be choosing where to sit. The best advice I read was you want a room half dead and half alive. Jon essentially says the same, you don't want reverb down below 0.3 he said: it makes your music sound lifeless. I interpreted this as meaning I didn't need to catch every single first order and could choose which reflections to focus on more. My choice? Top priority given to the floor and the wall behind me (ie the wall that the speakers are firing straight towards) and second to the left and right sides. My left is open to a wide hallway and right has a full width window. I placed a huge soft couch beneath the window and highly diffracting blinds to cover the window. You can't hope to absorb enough energy with curtains so diffraction is a better choice. It seems to have worked, the heading left disappears through the opening and to the right is both absorbed and diffracted and the result is quite balanced. The sound on the floor is heavily absorbed by a double layer of thick carpeting with underlay as well as artfully placed floor cushions. It may sound silly but when I'm in the mood for critical listening I will literally balance a coupe of pillow on top of my speakers cantilevered and extending forwards over the top like a canopy. This greatly disrupts any energy that might be going towards the ceiling. It isn't necessary but I do it when I'm feeling extra picky and of course I can just remove the pillows when I am done. Meanwhile I sit on another couch with a high back that more or less spans the room and behind me is a custom bookcase with hollow sections to discreetly absorb and trap sound and various books and trinkets which create diffraction. Behind that is the wall so it means I sit about 1.5 meters from the back wall which is helpful (My speakers are generally placed 1 to 1.2m into the room) I move them with the type of music. If I want a bit more oomph I push then back and if I want more larity I'll bring them out. Now I want to stress this wasn't done to save money, the wool rugs, the furniture and especially the custom bookshelf were not from Ikea, It was done with an aim to disguise the acoustic treatment as much as possible. I'm very satisfied with the results at least according to the clap test. I do know someone with a Umic and REW so I might ask him over one day to get some empirical readings. Will come back and edit this post with them if I do.
I fully agree, a big bookshelf or better a full wall boiserie is the best friend for AV enthusiasts. Not only for acoustics but specially to integrate and camouflage all your gear. My boiserie holds the AVR, the surround back speakers, the projector, the WiFi router, a PC, an Xbox, two bass traps, and the f. rat nest of cables inside a closed drawer. Wife factor solved.
I built bookshelves, which I keep random sized items, books, CD's, DVD's on (so it acts like a diffuser) but is also storage.
As usual. Love it. I agree that reverberation treatment is key. Thanks for another awesome video!
Thanks so much! This kind of video is just what I needed.
The room makes so much difference
Indeed! 👏 makes or breaks the sound. And it doesn’t have to cost to sort out. You can DIY treatments easily and do the decor so everyone in the house is a happy bunny.
Acoustics is by far the most important and impactful element in a sound systems performance. I have taken modest gear in utterly, hopelessly, horrible sounding rooms to fully excellent and realized sound without changing any of the equipment or speakers, just treating and fixing the room with simple materials (most available at Lowes or home depot like places). Once you hear what the room is doing... you cannot unhear it. Once you understand the damage room modes do... you will seriously want them gone... once you hear what damage resonances from room features and furniture etc. is doing... you will want that sorted out, too.
Thanks John. The ceiling is something often overlooked, I had some mini towers that I moved from a standard height room to a low ceiling, extension at the rear of my house. The low ceiling also has exposed wooden beams that run parallel. The sound improvement was immediately obvious. Bass and channel separation were way more defined. Audiophiles obsess over component synergy, but it just goes to show room compatibility has as much or maybe more impact.
Your moving from one room to a smaller other was not rocket science.
The choice of panel design and aesthetic is really slick. Way more elegant than expected. They did a great job
Timely video John. This topic has me evaluating my room(s). Like learning from others experiences.
So true! although it is not so easy to convince the important person I live with that weird things stuck on the ceiling or standing in the corners of the room should be given house room.
Great video JD
i've changed many things in my hi-fi setups the past two years, but by far, the one that had the biggest impact, is changing flat 😅 the new living room sounds so much nicer, i'm having so much more fun listening and rediscovering my favorite albums !
Bravo John (a million hertz times). Absolutely true and thank you for the beautiful demo and explanation. May more audiophiles follow your lead.
I think the white panels look great in the space. Glad to hear the results were so excellent.
Thanks , i wish there were more people that really understand what they are saying and explain it as you do , thanks for that
Excellent video. I'm so glad that I started with a much better room ... purely by chance, but I'm grateful 😀
I totally agree with this. My main media room is treated with bass traps, combo panels, regular panels and diffusion. 15-20% of walls and ceiling are treated. Makes a massive difference.
Exceptional content, thank you for a great video.
It's really a huge difference in sound! You have some of the coolest gear! 😎
I live in Europe and have used products from thomann. A very cheap online music store. I simply glued white foam panels on my white ceiling. Not that noticeable visually. Thomann also have bass traps and diffusion panels. I haven't gone that far. With my TDAI 1120 with room correction imaging and separarion is amazing. You can also add custom prints on canvas on acoustic panels. So you simply have your favourite pictures at the reflection points.
Love your content @darko, will be buying you a cup a coffee soon!
John, the room whisperer. Nicely done.
Darko Audio: Boo! Reverb is bad. Bose: Here, have this Direct/Reflect® technology.
Here here! Indeed the room is at least 50% of the sound quality and you're right audio files almost always overlook it. The biggest bang for the buck you can get for your audio system is to treat your room.
The bass traps are located where the longest standing wavelengths are possible - these are typically from (say) front wall left floor boundary to rear wall right ceiling boundary and all the mirror variations of this. In a room 4 x 7 x 3 metres, the longest half wavelength would be sqrt( 4x4 + 3x3 + 7x7) which is 8.6 metres or 17.2 metres for the full wavelength. Using v= f λ you get 300 / 17.2 = 17.5 Hz which is the lowest frequency standing wave which can be generated in that room. 35 Hz is the lowest full wavelength possible in that room. But there are also many more standing wave modes possible in the bass. Rear to front 7m gives 21 Hz / 42 Hz standing waves, side to side 4m gives 37.5 Hz / 75 Hz, floor to ceiling 3m gives 50Hz / 100 Hz and so on. The big problem i have with treating a room is that the aesthetics of the final result would have made my partner leave me, I would rather try to achieve the 0.3s reverb time with traditional interior decoration measures - carpets, curtains, tapestry, cushions, sculptures. This is the route I would go to compromise for domestic bliss. This was a great episode. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
Great job John. I had the 3D Render analysis done by Vicoustic.
You are ON THE SPOT with this video. Another argument why the room is the most important element in ANY acoustic setting, comes from the production side. The best recordings were made in locations with phenomenal acoustic properties such as Musikverein, Sophiensäle (both Vienna) Lukaskirche (Dresden) etc… and only then: Microphones, Electronics etc…
Other venues were also available.
Absolutely a necessity. Well done. I agree with it all. ❤
Im late to the party...however after making some simple "echo/reverb" adjustments with nice looking sound absorbing panel things placed strategically...voila ! Things now sound better...thanks for this JD
Yes your absolutely correct about the room making a huge difference. Followed by the mastering of the music your listening to.
Love your floor tiles
Great job 👏
Awesome result
A lot of these acoustic treatment panels, dispersers, and bass traps look like excellent DIY projects for those inclined to carpentry and some fabric work. My prediction is you're going to love those (expensive) goldenears. Seems the closest competition is the Paradigm Founder 120H though they're a little more money. Paradigms have some form of bass management too.
The ceiling zone is open space to sound, so putting bass management up there is every bit as effective as in the floor zone, but has the advantage of not taking up living and working space.
Great video
Unbelievable difference. I knew my only available room was a little ‘difficult’, but I was pulling my hair out with the sound from the digital rig. It was just so intense and shouty and nothing seemed to calm it the heck down. Some absorber panels at the first reflection points and some great big absorber/diffuser panels on the back wall behind the listening position (all from GIK Acoustics) absolutely tamed the sound - there was never anything wrong with it. There’s really not enough talked about this aspect of sound when we’re splitting hairs with so many other tweaks.
Absolutely on point! A cutting edge Formula one car is nothing without a proper race track.
Great informative video again. I think there was a sneak preview of the Nad Masters M66 sitting on the rack and maybe an M23 close by. Looking forward to that review if that’s the case 👍
John, here in The Netherlands we have a textured surface plaster for walls and ceilings called " Spachtelputz " which does wonders for the acoustics of any listening room. My friend and I both Brits both have it in our homes, it works great and is easy to maintain, just go over with a roller every few years. However, the reverb is very low, soft furnishings and a rug, thats all.
Thank you. Easy to fall in love with electronics but you are 100% right
Well positioned bass traps and a staggered displacement of absorption and diffusion on the vertical walls (home made quadratic wood panels work great) and a bit of diffusion on the ceiling… pretty much miraculous 👍🏼🙏🏼
The room plays a huge role, no question. So does speaker placement. Move them way away from the walls to see real positive change in sound reproduction.
Room treatment is actually discussed fairly often. (But it bears repeating.)
Great content. Just got back to the States from Lisbon. My what a place..
I was happy to see this. To me this is the most annoying aspect of listening to music and it does indeed need to be dealt with properly. Frankly, I avoid indoor concerts held in enclosed sports arenas because the reflected sound just hurts! I need to wear those special earplugs with the tiny holes, otherwise I would have to leave the venue. Thanks so much, John, for bringing this to light in a very effective manner.
Great video, thank you. BTW, your Klipsch Forte IV speakers are an excellent addition to your room and bass is an issue in my listening room also.
But aren't they ugly? All that money for zero aesthestics design principles.
I was fortunate to be able to have my dedicated HT-Music Room built to an acoustic analysis, it's a different experience when done this way.😊
Great video. Important topic if you're interested in getting the most out of even a modest system. I added diy panels to first reflection pionts in my small room. I could measure and hear the difference. Next, I tried Focus Fidelity room correction software. Wow, best $250 I've ever spent in HiFi.
Thanx John, again for this informative video. I‘d say from a viewpoint of a technician room treatment (50%) + speaker (45%) = 95 % sound . Just without being preoccupied by brands of cables, amps and all the stuff. And I like to add another topic you‘ve brought up in the past: DSP I use a Lyngdorf 3400 dsp amp and its room perfect software. Sold my expensive (and beloved…) pre- and power amp for the Lyngdorf. I would now do the equation as follow: room 20% + speaker 40% + dsp 39% = 99% sound. The one % is for good crafted cables and other accessories.
Throughout the years I’ve learned so much from your videos. Like you said my night and day difference moment came when I bought 3 acoustic picture from AkuArt here in Copenhagen 🇩🇰 . It was amazing how pleasant any sound was suddenly in my living room. It cost me around 1000€ for 3 pictures but man I couldn’t live without them today. My LS50s sing beautifully now 🎤
a little bit of reading and self study on this matter goes a long way. I've been treating my rooms (hifi and home theater) acoustically for the last 15 years or so. Treble is the easiest to fix, mids are also quite doable. Bass is a bit longer of a study. So my advice to people is: read in and just try to fix it yourself at first. After a bit of reading you'll see that you can easily get to about 65% of your issues to disappear. If you want to go all out, get it professionally done... but expect a stiff bill for that.
Love your video Darko. Thanks for the tips. You said it yourself - this video doesn't cover the most critical area which is 100 Hz and lower. You can treat all the upper frequencies you want but unless that bass region is fixed, the upper frequencies will still suffer from harmonics. I wish more people would cover this critical zone of the sound spectrum because it just encourages guys like Denis Foley at Acoustic Fields to keep convincing people that his bass treatments are the only ones on the planet that work. They should for $25,000 - $30,000 for a modest size room! There must be other methods that don't cost the same as my first house and car combined 🙄.
Great video, agreed this such an important part of the audio experience. Not necessarily as aesthetic as nice speakers though, those modifications you did would never fly in my household. For me, I went the Dirac Live route and it's already a huge improvement.
the cost of room treatment has kept me from investing in a speaker setup (I mainly listen with Stax 'earspeakers' now). I know I won't be satisfied even with the best measuring and/or sounding speakers/amp/dac/et cetera, if my living sounds as it does now. Nice to see a video which lets people hear just how dramatic a change proper room treatment makes!
Am I the only one who finds the complaint about costs while using Stax anything ironic? At least I have the excuse that I use the most entry level HiFiman headphone.
So true. I designed one of my room (an semi-enclosed patio, veranda-like brick space) and it is 36 feet long. My speaking position is at one end. The room has hollow blocks instead of windows one one side and at the back. Air & sound can dissipate. The only source of problem is the metal roof (with a 3 mm foam insulation) which parts vibrates against the iron beams at high db caused by low frequencies (around 30 kh) when no foam is present.
I have been amazed when first hearing my KRK Rokit 6 (200€ a pair) in my friend's treated studio for the first time.
I have my 58cm high speakers mounted on rubber plinths attached to the walls 1.5m above floor. I have a low pile large rug on the floor, and furniture covering 60% of the walls. My hifi sounds amazing, when playing music and watching movies. The room was arranged rather logically to preserve space so the speakers are out of the way and without knowing, I’ve enhanced the acoustics.
Excellent point! And I’d love to spend thousands on acoustic room treatment but I live in a shorter term rented space so would be helpful to have some cheaper, less permanent things we can do to help cut down reverb - like a good rug for example. Thx
"Snookering around the room", quote of the day! ;-)
It’s so baffling to me that so many “audiophiles” wouldn’t just spend 10 mins on any pro audio forum to find out how much of a difference room treatment makes.
I agree, room treatment is the most significant thing in inproving the sound quality. You dont have to spent that kind of money, an option is buying the materials and build yourself the panels, many tutorials on youtube
Thanks for the video; Room treatment is, probably, the most underrated part of any HiFi system; my next investment will be on it (headphone listening is my reference)
It is so amazing to look at FaceBook, sound system in the 6 figures and up… in kitchen, very small room without any investment in acoustic… and read comments from people that this system sound so great (listening over their phones, iPad or pc) 🤯🤯🤯🤯
Many years ago, my mother had a furniture decorator center and I helped her out sometime. We went to a ladies house who had a bridge room where she played cards with a bunch of her friends. The entire room was dusted with button and tuck fabric from ceiling to floorand drapes were very heavy. You couldn’t hear a thing of an echo in that room. It was incredible almost like an amniotic chamber.
That was also a common practical practice to keep a room's warmth from escaping.
..and contain the cackling of old hens playing cards..😉
Hear Hear… Well said Mr Darko. Room is of primary importance with the biggest returns…👍🏻
Totally agree both on some sort of room treatment (and also the rank of ethernet switch importance). The only difference is, I made my own absorption panels and bass traps with discarded palette wood, Roxul 80, and had some of my photos cloth printed through Etsy. Have not measured anything, but clap test was maybe not quite as bad at beginning (don't have a tile floor!), but now is similar order of magnitude as with your room (as much as a KZhead video permits to judge). Love it!
Good advice.
Being in pro audio sector for 25 years or so, I was on the verge of printing out business cards for home listeners with a few of things on them: * Treat your room * Ignore all the cable stuff * Consider powered studio monitors The first one is so important though. Incredible when people are “tweaking” a system in a room when it sounds like a cave in there.
I am not an audiophile , but I've just bought vintage cd and amp, plus the Wiim Pro Plus streamer,put my speakers on stands and am blown away with the quality- though I'm guessing viewers here may not be. I listen in my 5 x 4 m study, which is triple-aspect with a high ceiling. One wall is totally covered with book shelves. The difference when I shut my curtains is flabbergasting, in fact I can't listen without now.
Room and speaker setup is number one by FAR. Good vid Btw John you don’t need that foam thing on top of the mic. That’s for wind.
Maybe he had a curry.
From the title, I thought you were going to talk about my wife😉
😅
😂
I thought he was going to talk about my wife! And I'm not EVEN married! LOL!
A lot of us have the listening room we have and are not able to change it much, yet we can still achieve pretty good sound with great equipment
very interesting view 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Great 101 on the importance of proper room treatment! DIY job would have cost 20% of the money you spent. I have done it using the same Vicoustic panels and bass traps used here for a 24x16 size HT room.
A good reason not to clean up my room! Now I have a ‘death’ listening room because of all the stuff lying around at no cost. (Oh, and of course no wife here, also no cost!)
Nothing to brag about
This and the importance of speaker placement and matching speakers with the size of the room.
Absolutely. It all boils down to distortion and noise! All sound that is not in the recording is distortion and noise. Some of it is nice, like extra bass. Most of it is garbage like reverb, cars driving by, a ringing cellphone.
($7000 ethernet switch): JD: “Who am I to tell you what you should spend your money on? (10 secs later) …It’s the very last thing you should ever buy.” LOL
I used to have a recording studio in the 90’s and I used egg boxes on the walls all around works perfectly
best thing you can do. better than any upgrade component. i've done exactly the same thing. spent 2 grand on acoustic panels.made the most change.sounds clean and crisp now.
John- It's worse than you described in your written portion. Some restaurants deliberately create a noisy environment - they equate that with the restaurant having "buzz". I did some very basic treatment to my room - it transformed the sound.
Very clear explanation about room treatment. I wonder, if the acoustic fysical treatment made a 100 percent difference? How much difference would room perfect of your lyngdorf do? Thank you for sharing.
13 foot listening distance with 9 foot ceilings, thick rugs on the floor, heavy curtains on one side, wide open kitchen on the other. No treatment. 500 watts to my big Yamahas. No problems.