The Development of Ironclads - 1867 to 1872 in the Royal Navy - The Good, Bad and Useless
Today we continue to look at the ironclad age, as the late 1860's and early 1870's see the RN move from broadside ships with sails all the way to mastless turret vessel.
Sources:
www.amazon.co.uk/British-Battleships-Oscar-Parkes/dp/085422002X
www.amazon.co.uk/Black-Battlefleet-G-Ballard/dp/0245530304
www.amazon.co.uk/British-Battleships-Victorian-Norman-Friedman/dp/1526703254
www.amazon.co.uk/Warrior-Dreadnought-Warship-Development-1860-1905/dp/1840675292
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Pinned post for Q&A :)
My question for the dry-dock is if some crazed billionaire/dictator decided they wanted to build a WW2 style battleship today how hard would it be (ignoring all legal problems)? I presume the hull and machinery would be simple enough but could anyone make 16” guns and foot thick armour plating? Also if new facilities for guns and armour were needed could the just dust off the plans and procedures from the 40s or would they need to start again from first principals?
You're saving the title 'The Good, The Bad and The Ugly' for the French navy then?
What did they use for toilet paper on the Age of Sail. It's not as though you bbring corn cobs or leaves. Maybe a sponge in a bucket of clean salt water on a stick?
Which arm of each of the major Navies of WW2 was the most useful for them and gained them their biggest results? For example Destroyers for the Japanese, submarines for the Italians etc.
@@Grimmtoof seconded
Royal Navy 1850's to the 1880's: "Let's put it in the water and see if it floats."
If only.... remember hms captain....
@@TheNecromancer6666 AH, but they put in the water and saw that it don't float. Lesson learned: just because you know how to design a turret, you may not know how to design the ship it goes on.
@@delurkor very true. Fascinating though that until the end of the 19th century they still build Turret ships. Even when then had established pre Dreadnoughts, with full armored barbettes they build Single ships from each class with larger caliber guns in oldschool turrets instead of Barbettes.
@@TheNecromancer6666 I can't be arsed to look it up, but one RN class was built with barrettes. One ship in the class was built with the old school turret and was a deck lower. All because an admiral/sea lord liked turrets.
@@delurkor That was the Royal Sovereign class and the Turret ship was HMS Hood. Edit: I just did Look it up. It was the Royal Sovereigns and Hood. They even had to cut down on Hoods Freeboard So she was less seaworthy in General and a lot less able to fight in heavy weather....
14:20 "Something like a 35,000 tonne treaty era battleship eventually fetching up at something closer to 38,000 tonnes" Italian & Japanese Admirals: _Gotta pump those numbers! Those are rookie numbers!_
Yamato is actually 2 treaty battleships in a trench-coat
@@kumaflamewar6524 you win :D
German Admirals: yeah, look how those two are breaking the treaty! * Quickly hides "Bismarck" class *
German Admiral laughs in Bismarck class
@@vermas4654 Americans, Japanese and Italians: If you’re going to break the treaty limits, at least actually build something that’s appropriately capable for her size (laughs in Iowa, Yamato and Littorio classes…..not that any of those even did anything significant, but honestly, that goes both ways).
Captainn Coles complaining about stability issues with ship desings is about as funny to me as Kamshatka spotting Torpedo boats.
You are truly a student of Naval Warfare if you get this reference!!!
@@mikeggg5671 Dogger Bank shennigans ^^
Kamchatka stopped shooting up torpedo boats just in time for torpedo boats to arrive...
@@c.b.816 I wonder what people said when they saw the real thing. Probably something along the lines of: "So THATS what they look like" Well... Or "What are those? Friend or foe, cant tell."
The amount of development that happens between 1850 and 1900 is simply staggering
You might say it was revolutionary. A revolution of industry, even ;)
@@henrikoldcorn the Victorian British created 15 of the biggest gun on Earth(before and then after the brief lifespans of the Gustav railroad guns) the 100-ton Armstrongs, Armstrong sold 8 of them to the Italians for the two Duilio-class ironclad turret battleships. Fearing this newfound Italian capability to threaten the Mediterranean bases coastal defenses(not without reason, Italian nationalists claimed Malta as part of Italy and at the time was allied with the future Central Powers than the Entente) the British Army ordered another 7 to fortify Gibraltar and Malta in response.
28:00 these propellers :O We definitely need a video on evolution and developement of ships screws
This is a brilliant idea! 👍💎
I noticed the horrifically bad propellers as well. What were they thinking?
@@jamesharmer9293 Well probably how many different calibers of gun it was possible to have on a single ship 😂
I believe he has a video on propellers in the works, because he's done a video on boilers, he's done a video on engines, all that's left is a video on paddle wheels and propellers (I do believe he's going to do both in one video we will see though)
@@khaelamensha3624 The Brits had the answer: "All of them of course"
15:38 "To send her over onto her side, taking all but 17 of the almost 500 man crew with her." . "Knowledge maketh a bloody entrance." The Bard.
My imagination immediately fired up when Drach wrote of the SS Great Eastern being used as a gigantic ram. It is utterly terrifying and amazing.
I’m such a sentimental schmuck, and this video reminds me why: whenever I play Victoria 2, as I’m upgrading my navy, I keep one of each type of obsolete ship, and stick them together in a quiet port, and name them “Museum Fleet”. You’ve given me a hang-up - I hope you’re happy! :p
I feel that vibe more than you can imagine
OMG, I've done that too - mostly recently in Stellaris
In another game, I just kept retrofitting old ships forevermore.
If there was any justice in the world, every navy would have such a museum fleet, to educate the populace on the given service's illustrious history, as well as that of the nation as a whole. (as a warship often reflects the nation that built her, in many ways)
DRACHISM OF THE YEAR 47:06 "But, after a long career wearing out anchor cables."
the "pointy brick on a piece of string" did it for me :>)
I often fall asleep to this channel… and sometimes end up having incredibly wild dreams. This channel is phenomenal. 🤓⚓️
Like huge ants having sex with centaurs
Must have been incredibly expensive to keep a large fleet when technology developed so fast
Which explains all the obsolete vessels strewn about the empire on 'harbour defence duty'
Also mind, the British Empire, with all its resources combined, was just about the wealthiest state on the planet. Even with the massive fleet and building programs, the British ultimately spent less than 5% of GDP on their military, a very good number. It also was quite efficient economically, meaning that it was not so expensive to build ships in Britain as it was in other nations simply because more Britons were skilled in making ships.
you'll notice most of them were "one off" vessels and not classes of ironclads i think these 19th century Navies knew what you were saying was true. Many took 5 years from being laid down to entering service and straight into obsolescence
Indeed, and it only got worse in the early 20th century--hence the series of naval arms limitations treaties in the 1920s and '30s, which were in part a desperate attempt to slow down the pace of ship construction before it bankrupted all the major world powers (but particularly the UK, thanks to the Admiralty's insistence that the Royal Navy be so constituted that it could defeat any two of its expected enemies at once).
@@mikepette4422 Back in those days that's how ships tended to be built, either as one-offs, pairs, or trios (often with minor modifications made to letter vessels based on data from the sea trials and shakedown cruise). The thinking behind this was that, if a design turned out to be a dead end, your losses weren't as bad. This only really began to change at the end of the 19th Century as the Great Powers began the arms race leading up to what would become World War I, when they suddenly needed a lot of modern ships very quickly.
Splendid video Drach, I'd like to suggest a Royal Yugoslav Navy video, from birth to WW2. Similar to what you did with Poland. Yugoslav Royal navy had a great history, from briefly owning 10 battleships to only having torpedo boats to then having a cruiser, destroyers, submarines, even a seaplane carrier and more! Great topic in my opinion
Italy had no right to snatch those Battleships. It had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to victory by its more competent allies.
@@michalsoukup1021 Indeed, they didn't even do anything with them, just scrapped them
Well I'm gonna have to hunt down that video on the Polish navy.
I think that's a great idea. I'm with you on the Yugoslav Navy WW1,& WW2 time frame.
Plenty of highs and lows
Really interesting. Most naval histories that deal with ironclads primarily deal with the USN and the Civil War. Such an in depth review of the primary naval power of the time and their experiences with such ships is a must. Thanks.
One of the big reasons that the USN and the Civil War in general get so much attention is because it was the first conflict that saw ironclads being used as primary surface warships. And the fact that both sides produced a good amount of them made it so by the end of the war the USN had a sizeable ironclad fleet. I do believe the Monitor was the first to use a rotating turret, so that was also a huge leap in naval designs as well. Not downplaying anything the RN did, it was still impressive, but I think that’s why the USN gets more attention.
@@Chase-ts7gu I think it feels like the USN gets more attention because of the enduring legacy of the American civil war. And the fact that most Americans pretend like the country they live in is histories main character. Americans just don't shut up about their own history while having a minuscule understanding of the events that make up their nations past. Hence you get the absolutely brain dead take that the United States and confederate states were the first to build ironclad warships. I've run into it more times than I care to count.
How did the navy go from giving ships names “HMS Victorious” to “Rupert”
Name of a ECW / restoration Admiral
Prince Rupert of the Rhine to use the English form of his name, noted land commander in the civil war and a naval commander after the restoration of the monarchy.
LMAO
All I could think about was Stewie Griffin's teddy bear.
I think of Rupert's drop which in turn is named after Prince Rupert that Vonstab mentioned. I think it is a perfectly fine name. Plenty of ships are named after people. As a result the cool factor varies from namesake to namesake. Can't really go wrong with Victorious, although it isn't exactly the most creative name.
If I ever became immensely wealthy/influential the first thing I'd do is raise the Cerberus To display as a museum ship and create replicas for cruises around port Phillip bay. Quite silly but it is a dream after all.
Is this the iron wreck in halfmoonbay your talking about? Last time I saw it was some 20 years ago and it was then almost slipping under the surface completely rusted through. Is she still there in one piece?
Dream big friend!
👍
When you become immensely wealthy, I'd love to help out with the project. Keep dreaming big.
I've always wanted to buy a crane just to watch it fall over, so you're seeming sane and measured by comparison.
Interesting how an HMS Dreadnought from this era was also a revolutionary design of ship that laid out the way of the future.
Probably has something to do with the name, whoever's coming up with the names four ships realizes kind of what dreadnought means and that it would be disgraceful to name any kind of ship that isn't new and revolutionary that name
That letter about the Cyclpos class was a thing of beauty.
“HMS Hotspur was kept in service far longer than she ever was useful” so her service life was about 3 days then?
"a slightly pointy brick on a string"
My ancestor was on Thunderer when the explosion occurred. He survived fortunately.
My dad flew the spirit of st Louis across the Atlantic... You may have heard of him
This closes a massive hole in reporting. The way most people tell it, there was nothing between HMS Warrior and the Devastation class, sometimes even HMS Dreadnought. Thumbs up.
One should admire Coles, how many of us would agree to go to 10 turrets to a single one? Requires quite pragmatic mind to do this. About the French raming ship, this one had a length increased about 12 feet in order to take into account the protection of the bottles of the cave a vins. As always my prefered days of the week are Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday as they are Drach's days. Thank you sir for your amazing work!
More dakka! Morel
For french ships, as we all know, the wine store is considered part of the citadel and is thus protected accordingly.
@@jiks270 As Frenchman, I did not specify it as it is for us obvious 😂 The second most armoured part of the being the cheese stocks, 😇
@@khaelamensha3624 Mais oui, bien sur!
@@jiks270 Thanks for the laugh Bonne journée!
Ralph Nader would call the Captain "Unsafe at any speed".
“Long careers wearing out anchor cables” comic gold
*9 minutes ago* This is the earliest I've been to a new Upload on KZhead ever
I tip my hat to you sir. "(...)Mad bad and dangerous to know(...)" I didn't know you can end a history video on a cliffhanger ending. Good show.
The variety of photos in this video are excellent. I've never seen many of these before. The Coles turrets were well arranged and serviceable. There's a half model of the Sultans Hull at Chatham dockyard, where she was built. Glatton was a turret ram. The French built similar vessels.
Agreed. The photo and drawing collection is fantastic.
Absolutely, that pic of Royal Sovereign at dock was amazing.
Coastal defense ships. Royal Navy: "You mean ships for losers?"
My grandfather, PO Joseph Horne, served on HMS Dreadnought from 1895-1897.
I can’t wait of the next one, any design crew that is mad, bad, and dangerous to know is right up my alley.
When you arrive so late to the viewing party, that the HMS Captain has already sunk.
I wouldn't say that's late
I do love the thought of the Great Eastern becoming the juggernaut of death and destruction
I'm genuinely excited for the continuation of this series! Hope you and your family enjoy the holiday season and enter 2022 in great health.
Do you give continuing education credits? I feel like that watching 50 or more of your vids should count for something.
First thought of the title: "How the hell has Drach managed to put five years in so many minutes?" :DDD
Simple, they’re ironclads. The things change shape if you look away for even a month
The beauty of it is that this is just one segment of time from one nation, so this is going to be a long, looooooooooong, series - and it's going to be _awesome!_
@@StaffordMagnus Just wait for the French version. Drach is going to need all the rum or/and throat lozenges of the UK only for this same period.
I loved reading through the transition in Norman Friedman's British Battleships of the Victorian Era. Was quite a time with tech developing so fast.
Predreadnaughts - Im so in love!
The whole age of sail just seems awesome. My home town was a sail harbor. But is not very used for modern ships. Would of love to see so many masts docked. Tallest building in town being tiny
Awesome video! Is there a video for 1872 through the Predreadnought era?
Oh Drach. I had work to do right now but 19th century ironclads are so funky, I couldn't resist. Though I do believe an Admiral class battleships slipped in for a brief foray at 41.45.
Great quip about management/administration types always seeking a way to get the same effectiveness on a 20% smaller budget. Happens today just the same. My own version is slightly different from the examples in the video: "We couldn't make speed because the hull was too short and the 500,000 hp nuclear reactor won't fit."
I re-watched your old video about the development of Iron Clads in the Royal Navy yesterday, what a coincidence
The idea proposed at around 31:50 of turning the Great Eastern into a super ironclad had me cackling like a madman.
It's worth noting that De Bange and Krupp breech locks were developed for land armies first. A field gun has to be moved with the army all the time, from one place to another. On a ship need for a breech lock for even small and medium cannon was not as apparent. Mechanisms for lifting shells could be built next to the gun. For an army field gun it's not an option.
I just finished the last Dry Dock and now this? Truly a great day
Wood planks between copper plating and iron hull was a brilliant idea. The next step using thinner laminated layers would have been interesting.
Your problem is to attach together securely the three hull layers, without allowing electrical connection between the iron and copper. If a thick wood layer is used, screws or nails can be used from either side into the wood, arranged so that the fastenings from the copper side don’t meet the fastenings from the iron side. This wouldn’t be possible with a thin insulating layer
@@jerry2357 I could be done simply by gluing layers of wood to copper sheet to create panels. Then glueing the panels to the hull with a T connector between panels. That is a iron bracket riveted into the hull at the base with a wood backed copper face.
@@alt5494 I’m not sure there were any strong glues capable of withstanding a marine environment until much later (Bakelite, patented in 1909, was the first synthetic plastic that possibly was capable of being a glue).
@@jerry2357 There where industrial processed tree resins called rosin glue which do not break down in water. Some of those also containing other materials such as rubber and animal glues. Asphalt from natural sources was also available. Wouldn't have suggested it if the technology did not exist
I love Wednesday's because my boss loves Drach and means I get a longer dinner break on Wednesday's thanks drach for the midweek rum ration ..
Lucky boy 😉
All these twists and turns and rapid obsolescence might make one slightly jealous of the Americans mostly taking a vacation from warship construction for the duration. If you had the luxury to not need much navy during the period, you could save money letting someone else deal with it.
We largely did the same thing with service rifle development following The US Civil War and pretty much sat on what we had while just about everyone in Europe were members of the new service rifle of the month club. Of course we had the advantage of not having neighbors who would invade every time the wind changed direction.
@@wilsonj4705 C&Rsenal has good coverage of the twists and turns of that era for those interested, including how the US ended up with the Krag Jorgensen and how we ditched it for the Springfield
@@Arbiter099 Yeah, watched that, the number of times they went back and forth on the sights was insane.
It's almost as if Drach's nemesis, the US Congress, had the right of it.
I forget how much I love Wednesdays sometimes, and the Drach reminds me.
I forget its even Wednesday sometimes and then drach reminds me!
Don't be a simp
4am & ready to watch the Drach until I'm knocked 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼👌👌👌👌😁😁😁
I do hope that this series is continued, given the year long hiatus
I love the early ironclads to the last pre-drednoughts era. I especially appreciate the sources list.
I love the sheer creativity of this period of naval design. It reminds me of the legend of the millionaire who invented the urinal, who reputedly started off with nothing more than a sheet of galvanised iron and his imagination.
One has to wonder was the crew for HMS Captain selected with great care in regard to the thoughts of their Lordships views on the design. Being sensible now, after reviewing this video you can say Thank, he she them or it that Fisher took out the trash and HMS By Jove looks a sensible design now.
Honestly I think that if a deity, any deity short of possible Neptune himself tried to oppose Jackie Fisher in his efforts to rebuild Royal Navy, it would be promptly taught the err of its way and fed enough 12inch CPS shells to go away and not come back.
I played a lot of Sid Meier's Civilisation games on PC. Including first and all the further parts. I never used ironclads much in my games but certainly they were interesting to listen about
Ironclads in Civ 2 were great. In civ 3, I have virtually never used them
Galley vs ironclad battles are hilarious
Dont get your military effectiveness ideas from civilization. Phalanxes can't beat tanks.
@@benholroyd5221 😂... In my old Civ 1 game I once lost a battleship to a single Phalanax defending a coastal city... 😳 Its easy to say that RNG rolls in that game were one of the most insane i ever saw (imagine a *barbarian diplomat* defeating a freaking AI controlled chariot... 😳😆😂).
@@benholroyd5221 How dare you? How DARE you? My Partisan is MORE than capable of beating a lowly pikeman.... Wait.
Never stop Drach-ing😊
Your informative and amusing productions are a continually enlightening delight sir. Very good. Carry on.
Sounds like Glatton was intended as a test article for some theorized system or for a specific mission not unlike certain large light cruisers of a later generation.
To be fair to the RN the UK had a long war strategy. i.e. the UK should be able to sustain a state of war indefinitely and eventually exhaust or stalemate an opponent through the prosecution of peripheral wars. This is how the UK fought and won the Revolutionary/Napoleonic war, WWI and WWII. To be able to do this the UK needs unobstructed overseas trade. If the RN is forced to fight in UK waters only such a war is already lost as the UK will have a limited endurance until stores of such things as food and fuel are exhausted forcing surrender. Even in the summer of 1940 or in 1804 the RN was fighting on the French coast, throughout the Atlantic and Mediterranean, as well as in areas of the Pacific and Indian Oceans. Even late civil war monitors are of very limited utility to the RN and full ocean going central battery ships could out sail and out fight them while having the ability to keep the sea in all weathers and on distant stations.
The Great Eastern as a juggernaut ram ship! It's a glorious idea...at least in my mind if not on paper, not so much!:-)
Thanks Drach It seems this period is one of incredible and perhaps made innovation where any idea, no matter how insane if seems, was given at least a look at. I guess that's what happens when you have a large budget and technology is changing so rapidly no one knows just what gems will come to light once you have sifted the dirt.
I hope you come back to this series.
HMS Captain: I identify as a submarine
"wearing out anchor cables" is up there with "reassigned to reef duty"
I remember your video on HMS Thunderchild, the fictional warship from H G Wells' "War of the Worlds." And now I know the inspiration for this tragic-heroic fictional gunboat. Thank you, Sir!
This entire topic is hugely interesting and had been pretty unknown to me before I read the conweys history of the ships books about this period. Drach hat recomended them a long while ago. They are getting on in years a bit for the editions covering earlier developments, but I would think still cover "newer" developments like this one pretty well.
Intestingly, Cerberus was semi-submersible. Compartments could be flooded so that only the breastwork , turrets and superstructure remained above water, making her an even smaller target than she was naturally. I wonder if this gave someone the daft idea for the M-class submarines?
Well: the M's did make a fair bit of sense when first concieved, as being able to 1-shot any opponent with an undodgable and fairly unsurrvivable artillery round was an appealing capability. The Submarine equivilant of a Punt Gun.
Even more interestingly the HMS Captain was fully submersible. That was the true inspiration for M subs [and Surcouf probably too]...
Where is a mention of HMS By Jove!, Drach?
These developmental history videos are the best things on the internet more plz
"all the way to mastless turret vessel" Now I want an image of a turret with a mast on it.
I used to buy match boxes called 'England's Glory' (made in Sweden). I think it was Devastation/Thunderer depicted on the cover.
One of the topmasts from the 1868 HMS Sultan was taken off and used as an anti submarine net platform in the River Hamble during WW1. I think it's still there...
Superb account of an interesting era, thanks very much 👍The best book I've ever read on HMS Captain is by Arthur Hawkey. I couldn't put it down..
I have been excited for this one!
Been looking forward to this one!
Great general information video.
Awesome stuff thanks as always
Thank you Drachinifel.
Another informative and extremely engaging video. Thanks Drac!
Very informative, thanks!
Been waiting for this since the first one. thank you so much.
Great video! Very interesting and informational! Thank you!
For comparison, the maximum roll recovery for HMS Monarch occurred at 40 degrees as opposed to HMS Captain’s aforementioned 21 degrees.
Yes! I have been waiting for this for so long
Beautifully done. Never read much about this period. Thank you for the work and the wonderful pictures you show to illustrate what you talk about. A splendid video indeed.
WooHoo - New Drach video., best news of the day so far!
This is my favourite series thus far! I was so hyped when i saw this video drop :))
nicely done. Thank you!
Great vid Drach, I've been researching ironclads and found your excellent vid. Especially interested in the Chinese ironclad Dingyuan.
Excellent work as always thank you so much for helping myself and most likely many others obtain facts based on evidence
I've waited for this for months FINALLY
I can't wait for the next video in this series!
Excellent narrative and necessary information for anyone interested in the topic and wishing to delve into this subject with depth and breadth.
Last time I was this early..... Wait..... I've never been this early
Looking forward to the next chapter.
Per usual, excellently informative, especially the difficulty on deciding the balance of all the design features in a rapidly advancing technology, needs & potential enemies. Ah, the relative ease of 1650-1850.
As always really informative and amusing video. Have you ever considered doing a video on coastal forces? Primary the fairmiles MTB/MGB history and usage really interests me.
Very good, I enjoyed that very much. Looking forward to you introducing Hms Alexandra (1875), Hms Temeraire (1876) and Hms Inflexible (1876) in the next video, the 1870s were a period of even more rapid change in naval ship design, it also represented the last period sails would be installed on a British capital ship!
Good naval architecture saves lives kids.
Thank you.
Every episode you produce should be standard watching in Every Naval School in the world. Fantastic presentation.